Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[achiruel]

1. Get rid of Mark Bailey as PT minister.

2. Let's see a public copy of the Airtrain contract

3. Bus reform

99% sure #2 will never happen as it will be commercial in confidence.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1173492521411858432

[#Metro]

99% sure #2 will never happen as it will be commercial in confidence.

The Airtrain is a government-granted monopoly for a period of time. There are no competitors, even if the information was made public.

In addition to that, they can always redact numbers from the contract.

I have a feeling that it should be possible to get it through RTI?

Off the rails?: Uncertainty over Airtrain monopoly
https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/off-the-rails-uncertainty-over-airtrain-monopoly-20121025-288sk.html

"Under the agreement between Airtrain and Queensland Transport, Brisbane City Council is not permitted to operate a bus service within one kilometre of Airtrain stations until 2014," it reads.

"As both the domestic and international terminals fall within one kilometre of an Airtrain station, Council can only provide limited services.

The question is - who at Brisbane City Council was inclined to write in the submission that bus services could be operated to Brisbane Airport after 2014... and on what basis of information were they working from?

E.g. Does BCC already have a copy of the Airtrain contract?

Edit: It would be interesting to see what action Airtrain could take if BCC decided to 'test' what the contract's terms actually were by extending a bus to Brisbane Airport.

Presumably, if the contract did forbid, then TransLink would refuse to subsidise such a service, and thus a full cost pass-through would apply.  Hence, the fares on such a BCC Airport bus would not be the usual TL fares... so a surcharge seems likely.

Would the Airport also lump an access charge on BCC's buses - likely I think - so add that to the bill too.

I think Adrian Schrinner is mixing up the concepts of cost and price. The ticket price of a ride on BCC's buses is low because they are subsidised. Conversely, Airtrain fares prices are high because it is not subsidised by TL.

Would BCC's Airport bus service be subsided by TL? That is the question.

[HappyTrainGuy]

What??? Undercut airtrain on their own contract??? Hahahaha. You'll get to the border and airport just has to say nope. Ladies and gentleman. This is what you get when translink had its guts ripped out back in 2012. Utter shambles. A body that can't even control its own network and a minister that is just as useless.

[#Metro]

Plenty of private operators drive shuttle buses to the Airport every day.

The contract is between TMR and Airtrain, not TMR and BNE or BCC.

How such a contract binds BCC is not clear. I suspect it doesn't...

So if BCC wanted to run such a bus, they could, albeit at their own, unsubsidised, expense.

A good candidate would be route 369...

[verbatim9]

Plenty of private operators drive shuttle buses to the Airport every day.

The contract is between TMR and Airtrain, not TMR and BNE or BCC.

How such a contract binds BCC is not clear. I suspect it doesn't...

So if BCC wanted to run such a bus, they could, albeit at their own, unsubsidised, expense.

A good candidate would be route 369...

The 369 should be extended to Skygate again. It would at least give opportunity for those to connect to the free terminal bus without fuss.

All those current connections from Kedron Brook with the 590 is a pain. If you have luggage and walking from Toombul station is not ideal.either. A seamless change at Kedron Brook would be ideal.

The Skygate inter terminal bus should run until 8pm 7 days. That will  at least give people the option to connect with the 369 onward to Kedron Brook Station.

The last inter terminal bus to Skygate that leaves around 6pm each day is far too early. At least extend it until 8pm.

[STB]

I'm rather bemused by all of this talk - just the BCC trying to pretend that they are the State Government and trying to make the LNP look like a good option for the State Election via the BCC throwing stuff against the wall that frankly feels populist.

I wouldn't be surprised that once Airtrain dissolves and the assets transfer back to the State Government then more normal fares will come into operation.  The whole point of Airtrain existing was to offset any costs to the State Government building and operating the line back in 2001 via the BOOT scheme, by getting a private company to build it instead and letting them have the opportunity to operate for 35 years to recoup their costs and have the carrot of being able to have a chance to make a profit off it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Plenty of private operators drive shuttle buses to the Airport every day.

The contract is between TMR and Airtrain, not TMR and BNE or BCC.

How such a contract binds BCC is not clear. I suspect it doesn't...

So if BCC wanted to run such a bus, they could, albeit at their own, unsubsidised, expense.

A good candidate would be route 369...

That use public roads. Outside of the trains and the airports own bus network (which is immune from any Qld legislation around public transport) there is no other pt access.

BT/BCC could run its own shuttles but BNE can prevent them from using their facilities. BNE land is private. BCC will not get involved in that. All we have is a Lord Mayor playing some pollyticks. Nothing else.

[#Metro]

Why would BNE block a BCC bus? Isn't the contract between TMR and Airtrain only??

[red dragin]

Why would BNE block a BCC bus? Isn't the contract between TMR and Airtrain only??

BNE is a privately owned business on Federal Land (under lease). They can decide who they take money from and who they don't. The recent article on parking income demonstrates that quite well.

Before the privatization, Airport Drive was a known place for 'tuning' cars in excess of the speed limit, as Qld Police couldn't enter unless invited (Federal land) and you rarely saw a Federal cop, let alone one doing speed checks.

[SurfRail]

Why would BNE block a BCC bus? Isn't the contract between TMR and Airtrain only??

Think about it.  Why would the Airtrain promoter sign a contract monopolising their position if it didn't require the grantor (BNE) to take steps to ensure it continues to have a monopoly?  BNE will undoubtedly be in breach of its contract if it goes signing deals with other operators.

Also, I've just checked and BCC doesn't even have the right to run buses to the airport with or without BNE's leave.  Their declared contract area excludes it, and there is a separate declared contract area for Brisbane Airport.

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Public-transport/Declared-service-contract-areas.aspx

The buses that use BNE now are either internal only or booked seats (long distance coaches or transfers).  No comparison to turn-up-and-ride general access services, of which the only one is Airtrain.

[#Metro]

SurfRail, can you explain why the Brisbane and Brisbane Airport contract areas overlap in the Brisbane CBD and Valley areas?

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Travelandtransport/Public-transport/servicecontractareas/brisbaneairportsca.pdf?la=en

[James]

SurfRail, can you explain why the Brisbane and Brisbane Airport contract areas overlap in the Brisbane CBD and Valley areas?

https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/-/media/Travelandtransport/Public-transport/servicecontractareas/brisbaneairportsca.pdf?la=en

I imagine this would be to allow the Airtrain (company) to sell tickets to stations between the Airport Stations and all CBD stations (including South Bank). This is why if you only travel to South Bank on the Airtrain, you just pay the access fee, whereas if you travel to Park Road, you pay the access fee + 1 zone fare.

This whole 'Metro to airport' thing is just a thought bubble. 2036? Running a 25m 'Metro' vehicle on Class C ROW and roads not designed to carry vehicles longer than 18m? Forget it. Schrinner got a headline, people are applauding/condemning/talking, attention is back on the Metro project and away from CRR.

BCC 1 QG 0. Next.

[#Metro]

I think Bailey and Schrinner make a good pairing. Both seem to think the game is optics on social media.

Hello? Centenary still has rubbish PT, and 5 years after the bus review the network hasn't "evolved" into anything like a better network.

At least CRR is finally going ahead.

[verbatim9]

I think Bailey and Schrinner make a good pairing. Both seem to think the game is optics on social media.

Hello? Centenary still has rubbish PT, and 5 years after the bus review the network hasn't "evolved" into anything like a better network.

At least CRR is finally going ahead.

I don't know why Schrinner brought this up? Why couldn't he just give us a sneak peak of the new revised station they are working on at South Brisbane instead?

Or a sneak peak of the proposed vehicles and how they will run, recharge or obtain power from?

Much more exciting!

Worry about the Airport, when the new Master Plan is supposedly released in December.

[verbatim9]

Couriermal.com.au------> Council claims that the new Cultural Centre Station relocation will add another 100-350million to the project

QLD NEWS

The State Government's preferred design of Brisbane Metro will cost millions more

A State Government demand to move a proposed Metro station from one location to another could see taxpayers hit with an extra $390 million to fund the project.

JACK McKAY, COUNCIL REPORTER, The Sunday Mail (Qld)

September 22, 2019 12:00am

COURIERMAIL.COM.AU

TAXPAYERS could be forced to fork out an extra $390 million to fund the State Government's preferred design of Brisbane Metro, in an extraordinary financial blow to the council's signature transport project.

The staggering figures have been uncovered in a City Hall analysis of State Government demands to shift the proposed Metro station from the Cultural Centre precinct to under the Convention Centre.

The Sunday Mail can reveal that under two options explored by the council, they claim that the cost of constructing the station under the Convention Centre would increase by between $100 million to $390 million.

Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said the move would not only potentially add hundreds of millions of dollars in costs to the project, but also worsen travel times and put the station at risk of flooding.

Move of a Brisbane Metro station will increase costs by $390 million.

(The) investigation has showed that none of the alternative options are viable," he said. "It's clear we need to revert to the original (Cultural Centre) design immediately, and we need the State to issue the approvals so we can get the project moving straight away."

Under one option, which would see the Metro loop under the Convention Centre, the cost of constructing the station would more than double to about $700 million.

The council claims Metro travel times from Buranda to the city would also be pushed out by 13 per cent, and bus travel times to West End would increase by up to 19 per cent.

Another option would allow it to be built for about $100 million more than initially budgeted, with a new tunnel that would run under Grey St, as well as a 12 per cent increase in travel times for West End bus services.

Both designs though would require 2.5 metre high mechanical flood gates to address the additional significant flood risks that the council says was identified in their assessment.

The team heading Metro briefed Government officials about their findings on Tuesday, with the Lord Mayor yesterday calling for the station to be returned to the Cultural Centre. "Every day of delay is an additional cost to Brisbane ratepayers," he said.

"The State Government has not offered a single dollar for the Metro project, yet their interference could add hundreds of millions."

Transport Minister Mark Bailey and Cr Schrinner publicly clashed over the project earlier this year, after the State Government claimed they had warned the council as far back as August last year that there were "unresolved issues" with its planned Culture Centre station.

[ozbob]

The State Government is deliberately stalling this project for their own self-interest political greed as I detailed earlier in this thread.

They must think that we all came down in the last shower ...

I think there is a fairly basic fundamental reason why the State Government is stalling most things (apart from the moolah) is that they are scared witless that the inner city transport disruptions that will occur once Brisbane Metro and to a lesser degree Cross River Rail start serious construction, will have an effect in the ballot box.  If the Govt can string things out so that impacts are minimal prior to October 2020 ( #qldvotes ) they figure their chances are better.

Political parties see themselves as getting re-elected as their first priority and will do what ever it takes.

The bus network will be disrupted, rail will have to lift once works underway.  I know TransLink bus planners have been working on bus plans, and probably Queensland Rail as well is doing contingency planning.  At times the Tennyson line will be heavily used for example.

So, the increasing political argy bargy from BCC vs. the State Govt is part of this game. 

I think all comments by the political players needs to be seen through the lens of ' political self interest ' rather than a-political positive policy. 

I have no doubt that staff concerned with transport within CRR, TMR/TransLink and probably BCC are getting mightily p%ssed  off with the increasing politicisation of transport.

[STB]

I mean isn't the busway technically owned by the State Government and BCC only operates on the busway via the council buses like any other operator at the request of the State?  I view it as if I were a renter and wanted to demolish the owners house and rebuild it my way which obviously is a no no.  As far as I'm concerned, if the State Govt wants to redesign it and pay for it or even partially pay for it, that doesn't bother me.

From my perspective, BCC was way out of line in the first place when they announced converting the busway to a metro in the first place, given they don't own the assets AFAIK.

For me this is an example of why BCC needs to get out of the public transport game and leave it with the State - as every other state does and just stick with what councils normally do, bins, local parks, DAs, and maintenance of local assets.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1175505145309945857

[ozbob]

I think the best thing is to put the project on hold ... pending #qldvotes2020

Bailey et al will not be around to block anymore after that with a bit of luck.

Not much point proceeding with another half baked compromise ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1175493585480773632

[timh]

I mean isn't the busway technically owned by the State Government and BCC only operates on the busway via the council buses like any other operator at the request of the State?  I view it as if I were a renter and wanted to demolish the owners house and rebuild it my way which obviously is a no no.  As far as I'm concerned, if the State Govt wants to redesign it and pay for it or even partially pay for it, that doesn't bother me.

From my perspective, BCC was way out of line in the first place when they announced converting the busway to a metro in the first place, given they don't own the assets AFAIK.

For me this is an example of why BCC needs to get out of the public transport game and leave it with the State - as every other state does and just stick with what councils normally do, bins, local parks, DAs, and maintenance of local assets.

I'm the opposite. The state government has clearly shown over recent years they don't give 2 sh%ts about the busway. At least Brisbane City council is trying to actually do something to improve things. I would rather the infrastructure was actually taken off TMR's hands and transferred to BCC. They might actually get something done, and not half-arse it like the state does.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[SurfRail]

Critical state significant infrastructure that serves multiple LGAs should NEVER be left under a single LGAs control.

[timh]

Critical state significant infrastructure that serves multiple LGAs should NEVER be left under a single LGAs control.

Then the state government should stop f%cking around and actually prioritise some busway projects. Northern transitway is crap. Extension to Springwood is coming about 15 years too late. No word whatsoever in addressing the missing link between federation and Truro streets. Victoria bridge is a carpark and state gov has no plans to fix. Eastern busway shelved...

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Paul B]

Quest news did an article on how "devastating" it will be when people can't park on Gympie Rd. And how one owner thinks it should only be a bus lane until 9am.
What is next on BCC's agenda? BUZ 198? BUZ 135?

[HappyTrainGuy]

BCC can't even run its own bus network let alone design and run infrastructure and that's before you have the lord mayor throwing out how metro should go to the airport despite not being legally permitted or entitled to do so.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/team_schrinner/status/1175540244264800256

[verbatim9]

BCC can't even run its own bus network let alone design and run infrastructure and that's before you have the lord mayor throwing out how metro should go to the airport despite not being legally permitted or entitled to do so.

^^I thought that's why we have infrastructure Australia to scrutinise and approve projects.

[HappyTrainGuy]

IA does bugger all. Its an advisory panel for the federal government about federal projects and projects that local/state governments want extra funding for.

[James]

IMHO it is the State ALP team trying to give Rod Harding a leg-up in the BCC elections. Better off having a 'stalled' project which can cause Schrinner embarrassment, than a bunch of construction fencing & photo opportunities. Should Schrinner be elected, I forsee an aboutface from the ALP in April 2020.

None of this would be an issue had the Newman Govt simply been allowed to proceed with bus network reform in 2013 though. You reap what you sow...

[verbatim9]

Brisbanetimes-----> Flood mitigation still required at the original site if also required at the new proposed site, Bailey states

Minister waiting on reports behind $300m Brisbane Metro blowout claim

LUCY STONE SEPTEMBER 22, 2019

Transport Minister Mark Bailey says he is still waiting to see Brisbane City Council's new reports on a proposed underground station for the $944 million Brisbane Metro in South Brisbane.

Lord mayor Adrian Schrinner announced on Sunday he had given new reports to the state government indicating the state's preferred choice for an underground station at the Exhibition Centre was not feasible.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey insisted his department had not been given new reports from the council.Credit:Jono Searle/AAP

"They have been briefed but we've made it clear the original option was the best option," he said.

The reports, he said, indicated moving the proposed Brisbane Metro station from under the Cultural Centre to under the Exhibition Centre would blow out the budget by more than $300 million.

Cr Schrinner said shifting the station could also put it at greater risk of flooding and urged the state to approve the original designs for the Cultural Centre station immediately.

Mr Bailey said the department had not received the council's new reports and he himself had not been briefed.

"We haven't received a report from [the council], so as soon as we have it we will in good faith see what information they have supplied to us," he said.

"My understanding is they have not consulted the short-listed bidders as they gave us a very clear commitment to us they would do.

"They're not following through on commitments they make with us, and that's extremely disappointing and casts into doubt their sincerity on this project."

Mr Bailey said it was "obvious" that given the proposed station's proximity to the Brisbane River, flood mitigation would be needed whether under the Cultural Centre or the Exhibition Centre.

Concept images for the proposed Brisbane Metro station at the Brisbane Convention and Exhibition Centre, preferred by the state government to the original location at the Cultural Centre.Credit:Queensland Government

Cr Schrinner was asked on Sunday why he had not taken the proposal to the three short-listed contractors, who were told in June about the need to investigate the Exhibition Centre as a potential Metro location.

"Our team has briefed the state government officers very thoroughly and we've also had an extra 30 meetings with the state government," he said.

Cr Schrinner insisted the council was working "in good faith" and was "willing to be reasonable" to meet the state's requirements for the stations, despite more than 300 meetings between the state and council still not reaching common ground.

"The blockage is at a ministerial level, that is the reality here and I don't know what the Minister's issue is, but he keeps wanting to put up road blocks," Cr Schrinner said.

Asked if he had contacted Mr Bailey directly, Cr Schrinner said deputy mayor Krista Adams "will be in touch with the Minister", and he himself had called the Premier.

Mr Bailey said he wanted to see Brisbane Metro succeed, but the council was "not helping their case" by "mismanaging" the project.

He said it was "impossible" for the state to issue approvals for the project when the government still did not know basic information about the proposed Brisbane Metro vehicles, such as how they would be powered and how fast they could accelerate and operate.

The council has yet to finalise a tender with interested bidders for the design and manufacture of the vehicles, but insisted moving the underground station as the state wanted would cause delays to some routes.

"It's inadequate for [Cr Schrinner] not to pick up the phone and to talk about issues if he's genuinely concerned about it," Mr Bailey said.

"He and I have each other's mobile phones ... he knows how to contact me and yet all I get is missiles through the media, rather than actually solving the problems."

[verbatim9]

State and Council bickering as technicalities bring Bne Metro Project to a halt------>https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg227692.msg#227692

[#Metro]

Is it really necessary to know the vehicles that will be used to approve station locations?

We are taking about a big bus.

Can the vehicles be run on the existing infrastructure, and to what extent?

Again, we are taking about a big bus.

[verbatim9]

9 News now states it will cost 400million to move the station.

Brisbane's Metro has hit another hurdle with Council and the State Government launching a tit for tat war over one of its key stations. @ShannonMM9 #9News https://t.co/Mcx9uEJ6Pd

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1175692330407362561

[#Metro]

Ah, would we be in this position if BCC ran bus operations at all... probably not.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1175676040980529152

[Gazza]

There might be some urban design advantages to having the station under the exhibition center, but it's not $300m better IMO.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Metro vehicle tenders shortlisted as council and state spat continues

Brisbane lord mayor Adrian Schrinner says he will release a report he claims shows relocating a proposed Brisbane Metro station at the state's behest would blow out the budget by $390 million.

In June, the state government asked Brisbane City Council to consider relocating the proposed station for the $944 million mass transit project from under the Cultural Centre to under the Convention and Exhibition Centre.

The request triggered a sharp change in tactics from the lord mayor, who went on the offensive and demanded the state government start issuing approvals for Brisbane Metro.

Since then the LNP council has stuck to the line of "get on board or get out of the way", accusing the state government of deliberately delaying Metro approvals for political interest.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey said in June, July, August and September that the state still had plenty of issues to work through on the proposed Metro project, from the unknown design and mechanisation of the long Metro vehicles, to the impact of the project on commuter times.

On Sunday, Cr Schrinner told reporters the council had investigated the state government's request to relocate a planned South Brisbane underground station but it wasn't financially feasible.

Further, he said, the state's proposed location was at greater risk of flooding, blowing out the cost by more than $300 million.

The lord mayor insisted the council's officers had "fully briefed" the state government on those problems and demanded Mr Bailey sign off on the first approvals for the original Cultural Centre station.

But the minister said he had not seen any reports from the council on the proposed Exhibition Centre station - in fact, he told ABC Radio on Monday morning, the council had told his department the report was still being finalised.

"Getting that space right at QPAC is critical because so many people go through there every day," he said.

"The lord mayor hasn't said what other network impacts there will be, what other services will be cut as part of this project.

"I can't sign off on it until I know what the vehicle is, what the banana bus is, and that's something he can't tell me after four years."

Later on Monday, when asked about the report, Cr Schrinner said council officers had briefed department officers last week.

"There was a guarantee that report would be provided within a week and so we can confirm that exactly, that is exactly what will happen," he said.

"The report, full report, including all the information that has been given to them verbally, will be provided within the week, as we said we would do."

Cr Schrinner said he was happy to release that report to the public.

He said the finalists for the Metro vehicle contract - to design, pilot and manufacture 60 vehicles - had made their final submissions to the council on Friday afternoon.

"On Friday we had our last submissions received from the three shortlisted vehicle tenderers for Brisbane Metro, I'm pleased to confirm that out of that we now have two fully electric vehicles and one Euro-60 diesel vehicle under consideration," he said.

Cr Schrinner said the council was investigating the "whole of life" costs for the three versions, and did not provide information on the difference in cost between the electric and diesel engines.

He said the two electric versions were "still under assessment" and could not provide details on their points of difference in design or cost.

The vehicles are expected to reach 90 km/h and carry 150 passengers on busways.

Factors such as the length of time for the vehicles to get up to speed and slow down were being considered through the tender process.

The company chosen for the Brisbane Metro vehicles will be announced before the end of the year.

[#Metro]

150 pax? Why so small?



Capacity: 256

^ Maybe one for twitter?

[#Metro]

Just surprised why 150 pax was put as the limit.

A new fleet of 60 high-capacity Brisbane Metro
vehicles will be introduced, each able to carry
up to 150 passengers.

Note the limiting word 'up to'. page 22.

https://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/sites/default/files/20170530_-_brisbane_metro_business_case_key_findings_may_2017.pdf