Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[Mr X]

When the metro is finished, the 555 should run via the CCB and run express Griffith -> Buranda, but with added stops at Slacks Creek and Rochedale south. They also need a bus lane from 8MP to Loganholme. The current trip times out to Logan on the 555 are far too long at the moment.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/968271571306467328

[Aircooled]

What are buses doing in the cbd anyway.. it's quicker to walk to South Brisbane.

Or if we need to move people quicker why not install travelators between existing nodes? Would solve the bottleneck and save ratepayers billions.

[Fattious]

Get off the grass Schrinner... You have had 5 years to trunk and feeder the bus network.

"Brisbane's bus network isn't broken and doesn't need a radical overhaul like the one proposed by Translink, which is why I've scrapped it now that the State Government has handed council control," Cr Quirk said in a statement.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013/03/22/3721696.htm

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/970763921773576192

[matlock]

Sitting on the 196 this morning, it was full between West End and the city through Cultural. That's great, because the service is popular.

But I shiver at the thought that maybe half of all the buses which go through Cultural are half full at best. Translink and Brisbane Transport could more to a trunk and feeder system tomorrow and remove a huge number of buses going across the bridge without affecting the number of people on the bus network. They just won't, either because they fear a drop in patronage as commuters balk at the idea of interchanging (which is a legitimate concern if Translink don't explain the rationale behind it), or because they think commuters will only tolerate it once the flashy Metro is in place.

If Brisbane moves to a trunk and feeder system, there needs to be a boost to feeder frequency to compensate. Right now waiting 30 minutes for my beloved 112 is unacceptable.

[James]

BT had the opportunity to fix this issue this time 5 years ago, but totally passed the buck and decided to go for what was politically expedient, rather than what was right.

There are so many routes currently going through the Cultural Centre which don't even need to be there - all of the 300 series routes should proceed to Parliament (this was easier to do when William St was open, but still possible) rather than the Cultural Centre, likewise the 4XX expresses have no need to be there. And we haven't even talked about "cutting" routes yet.

What are buses doing in the cbd anyway.. it's quicker to walk to South Brisbane.

Or if we need to move people quicker why not install travelators between existing nodes? Would solve the bottleneck and save ratepayers billions.

Not quite. Even with the circuitous bus routing, it is faster for me to get the bus from the western suburbs to South Bank than it is to walk from either the CBD or Coronation Drive (via the Go Between Bridge). The bottleneck isn't just at the Cultural Centre, it is also across the rest of the network.

[HappyTrainGuy]

BT had the opportunity to fix this issue this time 5 years ago, but totally passed the buck and decided to go for what was politically expedient, rather than what was right.

There are so many routes currently going through the Cultural Centre which don't even need to be there - all of the 300 series routes should proceed to Parliament (this was easier to do when William St was open, but still possible) rather than the Cultural Centre, likewise the 4XX expresses have no need to be there. And we haven't even talked about "cutting" routes yet.

Hahaha. It actually wasn't BT. It was BCC advising BT not to attend meetings. Anyway as you said its what creates issues there in the first place. Get two of either routes 330/333/345 and the entire south east busway is blocked as they queue to go to Goma. And the same with West End services. It just takes 1 bus to block the entire southbound busway services. And that just flows on until the point where we have the insane bus jam. This is a problem that BT/BCC have across its entire northside network. If they can cock up a interchange such as Chermside and the quieter Aspley Hypermarket interchange its no wonder the busway is such a mess. And by the time all these buses get to the city they are primed to join the bus jam.











And it isn't a difficult problem to fix. Minimum thing would be to make any busway stop prepaid. If anything terminate them at KGSBS during peak and have passengers transfer to CCBS/South Bank/busway services at Roma Street Bus Station to prepaid 60, 111, glyder etc services. The whole network is fk'd. You can't justify running more trains because buses don't connect to them. You can't justify running more buses because no one catches the current scenic tour routes that go out of their way to bypass trains stations thanks to the tram/bus vs train mentality decades ago (up until a few years ago the 335 bypassed Chermside interchange/Westfield during peak hour). And there isn't a capacity problem when you can still get on a city bound peak hour train at Virginia around 7.30am and still get a seat. Shorncliffe-City peak hour services are a different story.

I know some people are going to say here he goes again but Translink's review provided a network that people on the northside could actually use. It had redundancy should trains fail. It had redundancy should the buses fail. If the train network went tits up you could transfer to the Shorncliffe line and catch the loop route to Geebung or Carseldine - if you heard the delay then Buz to Chermside or Aspley bus interchanges to transfer to the same loop route. Flip it for buses. Gympie Road goes tits up in arvo peak so train to Geebung and transfer to the local loop route. Or even get on the loop route and transfer to your connecting bus route. There were lots of options. Lots of built in redundancy. Even better for track work. Buses would have been positioned to be somewhat immune if there was an issue in the CBD instead of the current CBD issue effecting buses across the entire BT network. Instead all we got was a 335 going into Taigum interchange.... 325/329 merged (the 325 already did those services as it just changed the desto when it arrived at Boondall station).... I think that's it... I mean we got absolutely f**king nothing at all modified at Albany Creek/Eatons Hill. And people wonder why everyone here drives to work.

Its bat sh%t crazy that the solution to addressing the problem of poor network design is to continue poor network design all while spending huge amounts of money on something that can be addressed by fixing the first issue of a proper feeder and interchange network.

[#Metro]

Hahaha. It actually wasn't BT. It was BCC advising BT not to attend meetings.

Not mere advice... BT is a division of BCC. It's one and the same organisation.
If the Lord Mayor phones up and says "Do this!" then that is what will be done.

BCC did it because they can - their contract renews with the Queensland Government no matter what.

It is interesting to compare BCC with the Gold Coast operator - who went ahead and broke all the direct bus routes so that the tram could be fed. Not a peep from the local council there.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It is interesting to compare BCC with the Gold Coast operator - who went ahead and broke all the direct bus routes so that the tram could be fed. Not a peep from the local council there.

Apples to oranges. For instance the council had a large funding chunk in the light rail. It also had buses interacting with train timetable modifications and the light rail. If anything it wanted more interchanges to have a better return as they pumped quite a bit of money into it as they saw how they needed to do something as the population increased with only a few key corridors. Just like QR (light rail) wanting more patronage to justify increased services/expansion in infrastructure etc but buses avoid it so there is no incentive for QR/Translink/State Government to boost patronage hence park and ride expansions for peak hour. No one catches the train. No need to increase services. No need to upgrade infrastructure. The same old sh%t continues. Rumour had it that one of the reasons why express trains were removed and made to stop all stations from Northgate-Bowen Hills was to trial and observe loadings on trains and overcrowding on inner city platforms as part of sectorisation - with park and riders at Albion and Wooloowin preferring the front and rear couple carriages of Caboolture/Nambour/Petrie arvo services to the point of crush loadings as they were closer to the car parks leaving empty Airport/Shorncliffe/Doomben services which were preferred by local residents who seemed to value slightly less frequent trains for a less crowded train. As soon as the express services were reintroduced it was quite a substantial loading shift across all services with plenty of capacity still available on the express trains and heavy loadings on the all stoppers.

Remember BCC stated that bus users hate interchanging and thus kept the network the same. Shortly after the lord mayor suggested light rail as a means to cut down on congestion/having longer buses as buses were running too late/had to start paying drivers more OT and not to mention that the Gold Coast had its light rail and the Sunshine Coast was looking at it too. Labor suggested its own light rail for Brisbane. Greens had its own idea. There was also BAT and CRR. And election time was just around the corner. And thus it kicked off the major infrastructure campaign. Without a doubt they were slinging off the cuff ideas around without anyone actually looking into what needed to be done. Not to mention all the lord mayors back tracking on his public interchange comments.

[achiruel]

Also keep in mind that the main break of journey caused by the tram was on the 700 which runs every 7.5 mins daytime and every 15 minutes until 1am with a tram that runs similar frequencies. Not a half-hourly train with a half-hourly or hourly bus (or in some cases worse).

[#Metro]

Brisbane City Council was the sole operator that did not comply with the 2013 bus review. Lord Mayor went on public record saying that a bus review was not required. It was also the only time the regulator handed the operator its own network planning responsibilities. No other operator got this exclusive special treatment.

James is correct. BCC had the opportunity to fix, and willfully choose not to.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/971128185650753537

[techblitz]

Its bat sh%t crazy that the solution to addressing the problem of poor network design is to continue poor network design all while spending huge amounts of money on something that can be addressed by fixing the first issue of a proper feeder and interchange network.

actually HTG......whats just as bat sh%t crazy is your ability to bag the northern bus network while simultaneously swaying blame away from the sh%t rail network that you want those BT/BCC buses to feed into.
You cannot be taken seriously at this point until you actually fess up to the issues that people transferring from bus to rail(that's me) or even car to rail currently have to put up with on the northern rail network....which is overcrowding,missed connections and mechanical issues.
Yet here you are again defending it with one liners like this.

And there isn't a capacity problem when you can still get on a city bound peak hour train at Virginia around 7.30am and still get a seat.

heres a counter to that from a p%ssed  off commuter today...

https://www.facebook.com/QueenslandRail/posts/1892986580719693

Could you put more all station trains on between Petrie and Northgate. The few that do stop a Zillmere are so packed you can't get on during peak hour.

So why should BT have to organise their network around such a rail failure?
BT's immediate priority should only be to reform their own bus-bus network at this point in time.....starting with the CC...I think we can all agree there......only when QR has enough drivers and enough functioning trains with the right capacity at the right time....THEN we can pressure BT/BCC to reform its bus-rail.

[matlock]

I agree that it would be crazy to interchange at the rail network at present. Interchanging at the busways however would be much more successful.

Currently there are a raft of services which go near to mine in Annerley (100, 112, 116, 120, 121, 124, 125), but they all go onto the Busway and into the city. They carry a lot of people, but there are a lot of free seats sometimes too. Less frequented inbound services could terminate at the PA on the ground level just off Ipswich Road, with commuters then able to walk upstairs to catch another service from the Busway platforms into the city. That way there is a greater chance of filling up buses appropriately and there aren't a bunch of services going into the city needlessly carrying 2/3rds air.

It's just one small change I could recommend (not sure if it's feasible or not) which could have a noticeable impact on busway congestion and could be done tomorrow. Of course, the "Save Our 100" brigade would probably have a fit.

[aldonius]

Metro should provide the political cover to busway-terminate a lot of those CBD air parcel routes. And the Cultural Centre changes mean the 3XX and 4XX terminators don't block anything but the West End services.

Convenient, hey?

[techblitz]

Of course, the "Save Our 100" brigade would probably have a fit.

all you really have to do to quell the protest from the inala/forest lake crowd is to have two core HF routes....one crosstown and one direct.

So @ metros suggestion of 100 via granard/Moorooka shops << needed now more than ever with the clusterfu%k traffic at the Fairfield rd exit rocklea

and the other one which hooks into the ipswich line/centenary glider.
Work everything around those 2 core routes and your laughing...

117 becomes the core all-stoppers welfare route linking it all...covering acacia ridge/beaudesert rd/archerfield airport etc......i would even go as far as extending the 117 into pinelands rd because believe it or not......there is actual demand between Acacia Ridge and Calamvale.

[Paul B]

Run more 122s and make 110 crowd have to transfer?
Delete 321 and make the grannies all have to shuffle on and off 369?
and what about the lovely 334? make them catch a sideways route like the 354? HappyTrainGuy is correct, the frequencies of these northside routes are utterly pathetic.
No wonder a low density suburb like Carseldine is overflowing with park n riders
--
Anyone else sick of Translink using the 'severe weather' excuse when its just a day of drizzle like today/yesterday? I mean severe weather should be days like reserved for occasions like May 1st 2015 (150mm in one day)

[HappyTrainGuy]

Its bat sh%t crazy that the solution to addressing the problem of poor network design is to continue poor network design all while spending huge amounts of money on something that can be addressed by fixing the first issue of a proper feeder and interchange network.

actually HTG......whats just as bat sh%t crazy is your ability to bag the northern bus network while simultaneously swaying blame away from the sh%t rail network that you want those BT/BCC buses to feed into.
You cannot be taken seriously at this point until you actually fess up to the issues that people transferring from bus to rail(that's me) or even car to rail currently have to put up with on the northern rail network....which is overcrowding,missed connections and mechanical issues.
Yet here you are again defending it with one liners like this.

And there isn't a capacity problem when you can still get on a city bound peak hour train at Virginia around 7.30am and still get a seat.

heres a counter to that from a p%ssed  off commuter today...

https://www.facebook.com/QueenslandRail/posts/1892986580719693

Could you put more all station trains on between Petrie and Northgate. The few that do stop a Zillmere are so packed you can't get on during peak hour.

So why should BT have to organise their network around such a rail failure?
BT's immediate priority should only be to reform their own bus-bus network at this point in time.....starting with the CC...I think we can all agree there......only when QR has enough drivers and enough functioning trains with the right capacity at the right time....THEN we can pressure BT/BCC to reform its bus-rail.

So the 7  empty seats in the first carriage on Tuesdays 7.36am out of Zillmere is overcrowding??? sh%t my mistake. Although this mornings 7.18 was at standing room by Northgate. And the train normally empties by a substantial load at Zillmere close to 8am as all the Aspley High School students get off. Sounds like someone just having a whinge.

Mechanical issues are always going to be a part of a network when you have rollingstock that were planned to be retired and replaced - which is why DAA upgrades were stopped on them as they are the first units to retired. EMUs are the most basic of trains. Most of the faults are electronic. Newer trains you can reset the fault or the train fixes the fault itself. EMUs just pop a circuit breaker and tell you to fix it. Christ for over a decade the EMUs have had custom parts made by workers just to keep them running.

But as I mentioned QR/TransLink has no incentive to boost frequencies due to the patronage. And most buses that go past train stations have a worse frequency than the trains. Name all the buses that run past Nundah-Lawnton with a frequency better than 60 minutes. The rail network might be poor but compare it with buses and it's far better. More frequent buses going to train stations gives the extra incentive to run more services. I can bag the sh%t out of BCC because they can somehow cause a bottleneck at Chermside and Aspley interchanges and then propose a massively expensive solution to fix inner city congestion. And how many buses do you need at the Aspley one to cause a bottleneck! It only has a few services.

[not_available]

So the 7  empty seats in the first carriage on Tuesdays 7.36am out of Zillmere is overcrowding??? sh%t my mistake. Although this mornings 7.18 was at standing room by Northgate. And the train normally empties by a substantial load at Zillmere close to 8am as all the Aspley High School students get off. Sounds like someone just having a whinge.

But as I mentioned QR/TransLink has no incentive to boost frequencies due to the patronage. And most buses that go past train stations have a worse frequency than the trains. Name all the buses that run past Nundah-Lawnton with a frequency better than 60 minutes. The rail network might be poor but compare it with buses and it's far better. More frequent buses going to train stations gives the extra incentive to run more services. I can bag the sh%t out of BCC because they can somehow cause a bottleneck at Chermside and Aspley interchanges and then propose a massively expensive solution to fix inner city congestion. And how many buses do you need at the Aspley one to cause a bottleneck! It only has a few services.

Maybe that's why the 7:18 was so full (and, as you said, the 7:36 on Tuesday not as much). It's probably the one that busses actually connect to, as it runs at the same clock-face (is that the right term?) timing as the off-peak trains, and it continues on to Springfield, so it really wouldn't surprise me if that was the case.

[HappyTrainGuy]

This is during peak hour. 7.18/7:48 are both thru Springfield services which are the busiest of all the peak hour trains on the Redcliffe line as many people are actually going past Roma Street towards Toowong - just like the morning Shorncliffe-Cleveland trains being heavily loaded Roma Street-Park Road because of the gap in the timetable and the same for the Ipswich/Springfield bound trains departing Roma Street in the morning. Those two services really only peaked these last couple weeks because of uni students. The others which terminate at Roma Street have plenty of space for what is a peak hour train. There should be 5 or 6 trains departing Zillmere between 7.30 and 8am. Get to Zillmere earlier and get another train if the 7.48 is too crowded.

Another thing to remember with Petrie-Northgate services are in peak hour the stations all have different exit locations at one end so depending on the direction and time of day you know where passengers get off the train. Eg going to the city. Those getting on at Carseldine prefer carriages 2-5. Zillmere/Geebung students and workers getting off crowd around the first 3 carriages. People waiting to get on at Zillmere all board carriage 1-4. Sunshine workers crowd the final 2 carriages. Virginia getting off people hang around the second carriage with those getting on prefer carriages 2 and 5-6. Northgate carriages 1-4 are the most popular with locals sometimes missing trains on purpose to catch the next less crowded train a couple minutes later. Those getting off at Eagle Junction are all at the rear of the train. Bowen Hills mostly has people getting off from the front and rear. Once uni settles down expect the overcrowding to ease as everyone gets into their routine.

[hU0N]

But I shiver at the thought that maybe half of all the buses which go through Cultural are half full at best. Translink and Brisbane Transport could more to a trunk and feeder system tomorrow and remove a huge number of buses going across the bridge without affecting the number of people on the bus network.

I know that's a popular sentiment around here, but it's actually kinda nonsense.

I moved to Buranda 2 years back and have been commuting from the Busway station there ever since. I for one would like to know where all these half empty peak hour buses all are.  I'm not picky about which route I catch (so long as it isn't the 209 or 169 - you only make that mistake once). In two years catching numerous routes from Buranda in peak hour, I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten a seat. I always have to stand for at least one stop.

Near enough to 100% of buses leaving Buranda in peak hour are standing room only (both Capt. Cook Bridge routes and CCBS routes). Leaving the Mater, these same buses are 2/3 full. Leaving Southbank they are often only half full and I can usually get a seat.  That is how they arrive at CCBS. Half full, but not due to a lack of demand.  Half full because CCBS is the third out of four "destination" stops on these routes, and it makes sense that quite a few of the passengers got off at one of the foregoing destination stops. In fact the peak hour rockets make this effect more pronounced. They divert most of the CBD bound passengers off the CCBS routes meaning that the passengers left on these routes are substantially composed of people who are getting off at one of the three stops between the Mater and CCBS.

Having watched this every morning for 2 years, I'm not convinced it's actually a problem, but if it is, trunk and feeder operation wouldn't help much.

Take a case study. Perhaps you decide to truncate the 180 which joins the busway at Buranda. Where would you truncate it in order to take advantage of the empty seats at the Cultural Centre? You couldn't terminate at Buranda because all the seats on other buses are full at Buranda. You could extend the 180 to the Mater, but the platforms there are already chaos in peak hour and adding transfering passengers would be a nightmare.  So you extend to Southbank.  That would actually work pretty well.  Most buses leave Southbank just over half full, and the platforms aren't anywhere near as busy as Mater Hill or CCBS. The 180 passengers could transfer to other routes, and the terminated 180 bus would dead head to either GOMA or QSBS (the two nearest layover and turnback facilities). It solves the "problem" of buses arriving at CCBS half full, but it saves virtually nothing in VMT, frees up no buses or drivers and it irritates riders who have ridden 10km or more on one bus only to have to change 500m from their destination.

Put another way, nearly all the peak hour northside trains arrive at Roma Street less than half full.  This kind of looks like a waste of resources having all these air parcels taking up precious tunnel slots out of central.  Why not stop some trains short and transfer Roma Street bound passengers into the empty seats on the next half full train. Of course it sounds dumb because you know that the empty seats between Central and Roma St are because of people getting off at Central. It only works if the transfer point is Central, but making passengers transfer at Central in order to fill up seats that would otherwise be empty for one station only is dumb. And because the truncated route still needs to get out of the tunnel (via Roma Street) you actually save nothing by doing it. Same goes for the half empty buses at CCBS.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But I shiver at the thought that maybe half of all the buses which go through Cultural are half full at best. Translink and Brisbane Transport could more to a trunk and feeder system tomorrow and remove a huge number of buses going across the bridge without affecting the number of people on the bus network.

I know that's a popular sentiment around here, but it's actually kinda nonsense.

I moved to Buranda 2 years back and have been commuting from the Busway station there ever since. I for one would like to know where all these half empty peak hour buses all are.  I'm not picky about which route I catch (so long as it isn't the 209 or 169 - you only make that mistake once). In two years catching numerous routes from Buranda in peak hour, I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten a seat. I always have to stand for at least one stop.

Near enough to 100% of buses leaving Buranda in peak hour are standing room only (both Capt. Cook Bridge routes and CCBS routes). Leaving the Mater, these same buses are 2/3 full. Leaving Southbank they are often only half full and I can usually get a seat.  That is how they arrive at CCBS. Half full, but not due to a lack of demand.  Half full because CCBS is the third out of four "destination" stops on these routes, and it makes sense that quite a few of the passengers got off at one of the foregoing destination stops. In fact the peak hour rockets make this effect more pronounced. They divert most of the CBD bound passengers off the CCBS routes meaning that the passengers left on these routes are substantially composed of people who are getting off at one of the three stops between the Mater and CCBS.

Having watched this every morning for 2 years, I'm not convinced it's actually a problem, but if it is, trunk and feeder operation wouldn't help much.

Take a case study. Perhaps you decide to truncate the 180 which joins the busway at Buranda. Where would you truncate it in order to take advantage of the empty seats at the Cultural Centre? You couldn't terminate at Buranda because all the seats on other buses are full at Buranda. You could extend the 180 to the Mater, but the platforms there are already chaos in peak hour and adding transfering passengers would be a nightmare.  So you extend to Southbank.  That would actually work pretty well.  Most buses leave Southbank just over half full, and the platforms aren't anywhere near as busy as Mater Hill or CCBS. The 180 passengers could transfer to other routes, and the terminated 180 bus would dead head to either GOMA or QSBS (the two nearest layover and turnback facilities). It solves the "problem" of buses arriving at CCBS half full, but it saves virtually nothing in VMT, frees up no buses or drivers and it irritates riders who have ridden 10km or more on one bus only to have to change 500m from their destination.

Put another way, nearly all the peak hour northside trains arrive at Roma Street less than half full.  This kind of looks like a waste of resources having all these air parcels taking up precious tunnel slots out of central.  Why not stop some trains short and transfer Roma Street bound passengers into the empty seats on the next half full train. Of course it sounds dumb because you know that the empty seats between Central and Roma St are because of people getting off at Central. It only works if the transfer point is Central, but making passengers transfer at Central in order to fill up seats that would otherwise be empty for one station only is dumb. And because the truncated route still needs to get out of the tunnel (via Roma Street) you actually save nothing by doing it. Same goes for the half empty buses at CCBS.

Its past the point where a few routes can be cut. The whole network needs to be redesigned. Proper trunk routes ie railway lines and buz. Feeder services - interchange/busway/buz/trains. And east/west services. All busway services should be prepaid only and any routes using the busways are prepaid only. Frequency boosts. Rollingstock assigned to particular services (nothing worse than seeing a high capacity bus doing a 336/337/338 route in peak hour). And many of the empty buses are those that are terminating there or counter direction peak hour services ie dead running from the southside creating jams with the terminating northside routes/Southbank services or northside buses blocking west end/busway services. Its not uncommon to have some variation of multiple terminating 300/301/306/322/330/333/345/385/444 arriving at the cultural centre and blocking the entire busway in the middle of peak hour. I personally believe the majority if not all northside services should terminate at King George Square with dedicated pre paid only busway only services taking up the transfer roll ie current 61/66/111. Force Roma Street (where there are longer platforms) to be the major interchange location. You could also make RBHW-Roma Street interchange stops by extending the 111 to terminate at the RBWH.

It's unpopular but a short term fix would be to remove all motor vehicle traffic from Melbourne street/Grey street in the Cultural Centre area. That way terminating and West End bound buses have somewhere to queue allowing busway traffic to move freely. Its still 1 set of lights but its better than the 2 sets of lights with different timings due to multiple conflicting traffic moves.

[techblitz]

In two years catching numerous routes from Buranda in peak hour, I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten a seat. I always have to stand for at least one stop.

the general public were fed the easily believable 'buses half empty at the cultural centre' argument by TL.....when the enthusiasts,Buranda/Gabba locals and/or bus drivers knew the REAL story......that the other half were jumping on/off at gabba/southbank/mater/Buranda...transferring off trains,walking across from QUT etc.

personally believe the majority if not all northside services should terminate at King George Square

theres also room for more termination(drop offs only) @ ann st stop 12...given most of the routes that use the stop are low frequency...
I'm liking the 340 diverting there at the moment where it avoids QSBS and runs straight thru to the gabba...

[SurfRail]

This is all utterly moot since most of BCC's fleet only carries around 60 people maximum, which is absurdly low for a rigid 12.5m bus.  These vehicles should not be performing line-haul functions up and down the busway, the system needs a much higher proportion of articulated buses with 3 or more doors on the busiest routes and this needs to be put in place well before the Brisbane Metro work is done.

Buranda is also a pretty big strawman given how many buses passing through there and continuing to South Bank do not actually stop there.

[hU0N]

It's unpopular but a short term fix would be to remove all motor vehicle traffic from Melbourne street/Grey street in the Cultural Centre area. That way terminating and West End bound buses have somewhere to queue allowing busway traffic to move freely. Its still 1 set of lights but its better than the 2 sets of lights with different timings due to multiple conflicting traffic moves.

This is, I think a key point, and I can't help but agree. The real issue is that poor design of the CCBS precinct and of the routes moving through it leads to congestion.  There are solutions, but the "empty seats on the southside routes" thing is kind of a red herring that distracts from actual solutions. You could fix everything wrong with the buses (and the trains and ferries to boot) and half the seats would still be empty on the buses passing through CCBS. A full bus will always be partly empty at it's second last stop. If it's still full, that's a sign that your network is struggling.

[SurfRail]

Yes, but the point of something like Brisbane Metro is to remove the inescapable problem with the Cultural Centre - it is far, far too inefficient to have so many different routes passing through this station.  It simply does not work as a concept, especially in the outbound direction.  It's laughable.

People need to be able to get on the first bus which arrives so the platform can be swept clear, and if their end destination is not served by that trunk route they need to interchange further out of town where the added circulation of moving up and down a single platform trying to reach one of 4 buses at a time much is less of an issue - or better yet a proper off-line bus interchange is provided a la Garden City.

The same concept needs to be employed to the furthest extent possible on the railways so the number of stopping patterns and the number of actually different routes per track pair is limited as much as possible.  Get everybody on the first train to arrive to the furthest extent you can, and you don't have to deal with congested platforms, excessive dwell times and all the associated headaches.

[#Metro]

Is it a red herring though? IIRC the data is actual passenger survey conducted by Translink during the 2013 bus review.

[hU0N]

This is all utterly moot since most of BCC's fleet only carries around 60 people maximum, which is absurdly low for a rigid 12.5m bus.  These vehicles should not be performing line-haul functions up and down the busway, the system needs a much higher proportion of articulated buses with 3 or more doors on the busiest routes and this needs to be put in place well before the Brisbane Metro work is done.

Buranda is also a pretty big strawman given how many buses passing through there and continuing to South Bank do not actually stop there.

Look, I'm the first to admit that Buranda is not the perfect place to count buses. Not every bus route stops at Buranda, so it's possible that there's something about routes that do stop there that causes them to be better utilised.

However..

Counting buses at the cultural centre is just as problematic. In short, the buses at the Cultural Centre should be half empty. If they were full, it'd mean that nobody was catching the bus to the Mater, or to Tafe, or to BSHS, or to an office in Southbank or anywhere south of the river.

In short, at Buranda you can't check every bus, but for the buses you can check, you get a really strong indication about how many people use that bus to get into the city frame. Conversely, at the Cultural Centre you can check every bus, but it's hard to learn anything useful because you don't know how many people this bus has just dropped at the Mater, the Tafe, State High, the train station etc. etc. You can check every bus but you can't tell how well it's been used.

That really is my point. The presence of empty seats at CCBS could mean that

• the route is overcrowded and turned away passengers at every stop until Mater Hill where it started unloading and was half full by CCBS.
• the route is at capacity, just reaching full before starting to unload at Mater Hill and being half full at CCBS
• the route is underutilized and was never full anywhere before arriving at CCBS.

You can't know which it is, just by looking at CCBS. And it's important to realise this. If your metric of success is making every seat full at CCBS then you are dooming yourself to failure. The biartic metro buses won't be full at CCBS. A trunk and feeder network won't lead to fill seats at CCBS. Even if the busway was converted to heavy rail it wouldn't be full at CCBS.

[aldonius]

Well said, hU0N.

I think at this stage you and SurfRail are arguing different points, though.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I've always assumed the half full was in reference to the lighter loading routes and dead running/terminating routes.

[Cazza]

Routes such as 112 and 203 should have an early termination. These are the types of routes that don't need to be clogging up the city, especially during peak hours.

[#Metro]

If you take a look at the New Bus Network Proposal> http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

- Most buses continue to the CBD
- Most bus-train interchanging happens at Indooroopily, Mitchelton, and to a lesser extent Wooloongabba.

Both Indro and Mitchelton have all day frequent train services.

[James]

FWIW, the worst of the urban safari routes have left the busway by the time you get to Woolloongabba. At Buranda, you've just got the high-frequency BUZes, pre-paid rockets, UQ routes and maybe one or two other routes. The 161 would probably be the only true waste route through there (cue Lapdog/#Metro).

I agree that generally buses are at their fullest at the city fringe (Mater Hill, RBWH, Milton), rather than upon arrival in the CBD - I more saw '50% capacity' to refer to all the terminating 3XX/4XX routes there, as well as the urban safari routes (172, 202 etc).

[techblitz]

Routes such as 112 and 203 should have an early termination. These are the types of routes that don't need to be clogging up the city, especially during peak hours.

well the good news I guess is that BCC/BT have finally adknowledged the issue of those routes.


From the Metro biz case...

Aspects of current network planning and operations also have an impact on the efficient running of the network. Low-frequency and low patronage bus services use the constrained inner parts of the busway network in peak periods, adding to congestion and contributing to delays for all services.

[BrizCommuter]

If you take a look at the New Bus Network Proposal> http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

- Most buses continue to the CBD
- Most bus-train interchanging happens at Indooroopily, Mitchelton, and to a lesser extent Wooloongabba.

Both Indro and Mitchelton have all day frequent train services.

You need to make it clearer that that is a fantasy map, not a BCC or TransLink map.

[SurfRail]

The same issue applies in the inbound direction of course.  People won't necessarily board the first bus coming because you have a mixture of buses going to all parts of what is a tiny CBD, plus originating routes, plus through-routed services from the West End.  With the Metro, people will be able to get on the first vehicle that comes and consistently end up in the same spot without having to think about it, instead of picking which of the 100/200 series routes happens to work slightly better for them than another, leaving more room for the originating and West End routes at the surface.

Funny how they couldn't work this out when it was built when South Brisbane Station existed across the street and has never had this problem since every train goes the same way...

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Metro bus project delayed

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-metro-project-delayed-over-land-deal-20180308-p4z3g4.html

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane Metro delayed as land deal drags on

A gap of almost $7 million in the Brisbane Metro budget has revealed the first stages of the project have been delayed.

The Brisbane City Council's quarterly financial report revealed $6.9 million was underspent for the quarter's projected spend towards the $944 million project.

In October the council announced the next step in the project was to buy two crucial parcels of land that were owned by the state government.

The first parcel of land is a 1600-square-metre lot on Grey Street at South Brisbane, beside the bus station, and the second is a 4.5-hectare block of land at Rochedale.

The land was needed for the construction of an underground busway at South Brisbane and for the Rochedale depot for the 60 Brisbane Metro "articulated buses".

Shadow transport planning spokesman Jared Cassidy said he did not believe the council or public transport chairman Adrian Schrinner had even approached the state government, a claim Cr Schrinner refuted.

"He [Cr Schrinner] talks about it all the time, but he never produces any hard evidence that he's actually working with the state government or that council has actually made a proper approach to purchase this land," Cr Cassidy said.

"I don't think this $7 million delay in the Brisbane Metro project has anything to do with that.

"Perhaps they're having cold feet on their super banana bus project, as we're seeing delay after delay after delay."

Cr Schrinner said Cr Cassidy's claim was "bizarre" and he produced letters sent between the council and state government.

"I don't know why he asked that question or why he made that suggestion," he said.

Letters seen by Fairfax Media revealed Cr Schrinner wrote to Deputy Premier Jackie Trad on September 27, 2017, about the state land requirements for Brisbane Metro.

"I am writing to request the Queensland government to assist in the delivery of Brisbane Metro by contributing state-owned land to the project," the letter said.

Ms Trad wrote a return letter to Cr Schrinner on October 16.

The letter said a cross-government review of the business case was being progressed.

"With respect to the transfer of state lands, the Queensland government will be in a position to provide a response to your request following consideration of the business case," the letter said.

Cr Schrinner said the council was keen to continue with the Brisbane Metro but had not yet been able to purchase the land.

"That $6.9 million was an anticipated payment for state government-owned land that we need for the project and unfortunately we haven't been able to purchase that land," he said.

"The state has been dragging their feet.

"These letters quite clearly show that we have asked, we've actually gone to the top of the government, the Deputy Premier, the person who is in charge, and we are still waiting for an outcome to that request."

Past performances from the DP have been less than encouraging ...  another do nothing situation by the looks of things ..

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Schrinner/status/976369726900207616