Brisbane: Bus Electric Rapid Transit (' Brisbane Metro ')

[#Metro]

That busway already existed and was already paid for. We just got different rolling stock but you are comparing it to an entirely new underground build, rather than adding tracks to an existing busway.

I hear your point that the busway corridor is already there, so why not just put tracks on the surface of it? Well, apart from that being the original BCC plan (Quirk Metro) which RBOT was against and the inability for the rail vehicles to cross the Victoria Bridge due to weight restrictions, it also would not really change the costs either.

[Updated: Prior version of this post did not separate the T3 conversion from the Chatswood-City portion of the City & Southwest Sydney Metro Project]

[SilverChased]

"The estimated full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest is at least $20.5 billion:
This is up to around $9 billion more than the initial estimated full cost.
This is at least $2 billion more than the price tag most recently touted by the former government."

From reading this, it sounds like the $20 billion is the 'full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest', rather than upgrading of the T3 line. It also includes converting 10 old stations to stations that are very similar to our current busway stations (better looking, but similar standard)
You can see the Sydney Metro City and Southwest on this map. T3 is the dark orange line that continues to the south west. No costing for this upgraded line are provided in those links? Obviously the new grey double dashed line parts of the map are the expensive parts.

[aldonius]

QR network already is doing 10tph off peak.

Nitpicking, but that's 9tph total, and just over 7tph effective.

---

At the end of the day, we need what we've always needed: 15-minute off peak frequency on every major route (including trains), higher if needed for capacity. And of course, along some corridors routes will combine for better frequency still.

[Gazza]

Ah true, still it demonstrates you can have trains following at short intervals throughout the day.

At the end of the day, we need what we've always needed: 15-minute off peak frequency on every major route (including trains), higher if needed for capacity. And of course, along some corridors routes will combine for better frequency still.

This! When Ellenbrook in WA opens, they will have a common 15tph corridor between Bayswater and the CBD, on one track pair.
Theres nothing preventing the same.

[#Metro]

From reading this, it sounds like the $20 billion is the 'full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest', rather than upgrading of the T3 line. It also includes converting 10 old stations to stations that are very similar to our current busway stations (better looking, but similar standard)

Yes, that is a good point and you're right. The grey-dotted stations are actually all operational as of now up to and including Waterloo station. I agree with you that we are more interested in the Bankstown line conversion separately.

I'll contact the Sydney Metro team and see if we can get a figure for just the T3 conversion in isolation. I've updated the prior post to reflect this.

Note though, that a rail-based metro built as line-haul transport on the SEB will require (a) a tunnel to enter the CBD and (b)  the construction of stations within the Brisbane CBD, so it does not entirely avoid the need or cost for CBD stations.

[Jonno]

From reading this, it sounds like the $20 billion is the 'full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest', rather than upgrading of the T3 line. It also includes converting 10 old stations to stations that are very similar to our current busway stations (better looking, but similar standard)

Yes, that is a good point and you're right. The grey-dotted stations are actually all operational as of now up to and including Waterloo station. I agree with you that we are more interested in the Bankstown line conversion separately.

I'll contact the Sydney Metro team and see if we can get a figure for just the T3 conversion in isolation. I've updated the prior post to reflect this.

Note though, that a rail-based metro built as line-haul transport on the SEB will require (a) a tunnel to enter the CBD and (b)  the construction of stations within the Brisbane CBD, so it does not entirely avoid the need or cost for CBD stations.

I am yet to see anyone show calculations using modern light-weight material Metro train that would be more than the weight of Victoria Bridge full of buses and the previously full traffic lanes. Most reference calculations that are decades old and modern Metro trains are far lighter than they used to be.   The same weight issue is used to rubbish LRT on the Storey Bridge but the weight of the bridge full of loaded trucks is far greater.  Plus LRT can be halted from overloading a bridge if LRT/Metro vehicles back.

[SilverChased]

This! When Ellenbrook in WA opens, they will have a common 15tph corridor between Bayswater and the CBD, on one track pair.
Theres nothing preventing the same.

https://architectureau.com/articles/perths-new-ellenbrook-line-complete/
Speaking of Ellenbrook..
"Beginning at Bayswater Station, the project includes 21 kilometres of new track and five new stations at Morley, Noranda, Ballajura, Whiteman Park and Ellenbrook in Perth's north-east.

Jointly funded by the commonwealth and state governments, the $1.65 billion project is the largest public transport project since the city's Mandurah Line was completed in 2007."

$1.65 billion for 21km of new track and five new stations. That's about the same price and distance as Brisbane metro. Except it is a new line and has new, expensive stations built. Also includes a tunnel.
It was also delivered on time and on cost? And halves commuters times while increasing capacity.

https://www.buildingfortomorrow.wa.gov.au/projects/morley-ellenbrook-line/

[#Metro]

$1.65 billion for 21km of new track and five new stations. That's about the same price and distance as Brisbane metro.

That is a Perth figure though. Figures from Perth need to be adjusted upwards by ~ 2x to translate into a realistic East Coast figure. Perth/WA is an outlier.

I don't know what they are doing in WA, but their rail is very cheap per-km, and BCRs excellent!

It is also piggybacking off an existing rail line into the Perth CBD, so not quite the same costs.

It would be interesting to see if BCC holds information about a rail-based metro and its costs as part of their prior planning work (Quirk Metro).

I am yet to see anyone show calculations using modern light-weight material Metro train that would be more than the weight of Victoria Bridge full of buses and the previously full traffic lanes.

This record is what I had found in my prior research, goes into bridge loadings:

You can request it from the QLD State Library storage. It is very technical but in the hands of an engineer they will be able to explain it. It was produced during BCC's earlier investigations for LRT from West End to the Brisbane CBD.

Report on Victoria Bridge light rail investigation
Nick Stevens Consulting
<Queensland : Nick Stevens Consulting; 1998>

Record number
997460324702061

Permalink https://onesearch.slq.qld.gov.au/permalink/61SLQ_INST/tqqf2h/alma997460324702061

Hope the above helps! 

[timh]

From reading this, it sounds like the $20 billion is the 'full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest', rather than upgrading of the T3 line. It also includes converting 10 old stations to stations that are very similar to our current busway stations (better looking, but similar standard)

Yes, that is a good point and you're right. The grey-dotted stations are actually all operational as of now up to and including Waterloo station. I agree with you that we are more interested in the Bankstown line conversion separately.

I'll contact the Sydney Metro team and see if we can get a figure for just the T3 conversion in isolation. I've updated the prior post to reflect this.

Note though, that a rail-based metro built as line-haul transport on the SEB will require (a) a tunnel to enter the CBD and (b)  the construction of stations within the Brisbane CBD, so it does not entirely avoid the need or cost for CBD stations.

I am yet to see anyone show calculations using modern light-weight material Metro train that would be more than the weight of Victoria Bridge full of buses and the previously full traffic lanes. Most reference calculations that are decades old and modern Metro trains are far lighter than they used to be.   The same weight issue is used to rubbish LRT on the Storey Bridge but the weight of the bridge full of loaded trucks is far greater.  Plus LRT can be halted from overloading a bridge if LRT/Metro vehicles back.

Regardless of the weight issue, there are still steep grades and tight turns to overcome in the inner city. How do you expect a full length train to use the Melbourne street portal? The double 90-degree turn from Victoria Bridge to the new Adelaide Street tunnel? Or do you want to send trains into QSBS? How do you expect trains to handle the steep grades from KGS to Roma Street? What about the tight corner where the INB turns off from the Countess Street busway offramp? The climb from Herston to RBWH?

You could "spot fix" each one of these with smaller individual tunnels (ie build the underground Cultural Centre station), but by the time you address all of these issues, you may as well have just built a whole new tunnel through the city.

This! When Ellenbrook in WA opens, they will have a common 15tph corridor between Bayswater and the CBD, on one track pair.
Theres nothing preventing the same.

https://architectureau.com/articles/perths-new-ellenbrook-line-complete/
Speaking of Ellenbrook..
"Beginning at Bayswater Station, the project includes 21 kilometres of new track and five new stations at Morley, Noranda, Ballajura, Whiteman Park and Ellenbrook in Perth's north-east.

Jointly funded by the commonwealth and state governments, the $1.65 billion project is the largest public transport project since the city's Mandurah Line was completed in 2007."

$1.65 billion for 21km of new track and five new stations. That's about the same price and distance as Brisbane metro. Except it is a new line and has new, expensive stations built. Also includes a tunnel.
It was also delivered on time and on cost? And halves commuters times while increasing capacity.

https://www.buildingfortomorrow.wa.gov.au/projects/morley-ellenbrook-line/

The Ellenbrook line was built mostly in a reserved corridor in the middle of a freeway, or over totally greenfield land. None of these exist in the context of the Brisbane region we are talking about (ie the corridor from the city to Eight Mile Plains-ish). As a result it would require extensive tunneling, viaducts, or resumptions, which all severely add to the cost.

[Gazza]

The ellenbrook point was more to address doubts about running bi-di metro frequencies on the inner QR network.

[SurfRail]

Perth figures aren't innately cheaper by a significant amount from what I've been told.  After you have accounted for the following there isn't really much in it:

- Perth's geology is better suited for tunnelling.

- Perth's topography has resulted in railway lines which don't have the same geometrical challenges other cities have ended up with so they perform better. 

- Most of Perth's recent projects have not required substantial amounts of resumptions because they take advantage of public lands (freeway medians etc).  This comes with its own problems, eg the urban form around nearly every station on the Mandurah, Yanchep and Ellenbrook lines is basically awful.  That aside, this is not possible pretty much anywhere else in Australia without flattening things, tunnelling or building elevated lines in an existing operating environment.  Even in Perth, the elevated bit being done on the Armadale line is able to be done fairly simply because the whole line is shut down temporarily and there is room to use basically the same footprint as the surface level corridor.

- WA reports the sticker price on a lot of projects whereas elsewhere it tends to be reported in different terms (eg other enabling works get bundled into the overall cost, or there are operational costs). 

[Jonno]

From reading this, it sounds like the $20 billion is the 'full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest', rather than upgrading of the T3 line. It also includes converting 10 old stations to stations that are very similar to our current busway stations (better looking, but similar standard)

Yes, that is a good point and you're right. The grey-dotted stations are actually all operational as of now up to and including Waterloo station. I agree with you that we are more interested in the Bankstown line conversion separately.

I'll contact the Sydney Metro team and see if we can get a figure for just the T3 conversion in isolation. I've updated the prior post to reflect this.

Note though, that a rail-based metro built as line-haul transport on the SEB will require (a) a tunnel to enter the CBD and (b)  the construction of stations within the Brisbane CBD, so it does not entirely avoid the need or cost for CBD stations.

I am yet to see anyone show calculations using modern light-weight material Metro train that would be more than the weight of Victoria Bridge full of buses and the previously full traffic lanes. Most reference calculations that are decades old and modern Metro trains are far lighter than they used to be.   The same weight issue is used to rubbish LRT on the Storey Bridge but the weight of the bridge full of loaded trucks is far greater.  Plus LRT can be halted from overloading a bridge if LRT/Metro vehicles back.

Regardless of the weight issue, there are still steep grades and tight turns to overcome in the inner city. How do you expect a full length train to use the Melbourne street portal? The double 90-degree turn from Victoria Bridge to the new Adelaide Street tunnel? Or do you want to send trains into QSBS? How do you expect trains to handle the steep grades from KGS to Roma Street? What about the tight corner where the INB turns off from the Countess Street busway offramp? The climb from Herston to RBWH?

You could "spot fix" each one of these with smaller individual tunnels (ie build the underground Cultural Centre station), but by the time you address all of these issues, you may as well have just built a whole new tunnel through the city.

This! When Ellenbrook in WA opens, they will have a common 15tph corridor between Bayswater and the CBD, on one track pair.
Theres nothing preventing the same.

https://architectureau.com/articles/perths-new-ellenbrook-line-complete/
Speaking of Ellenbrook..
"Beginning at Bayswater Station, the project includes 21 kilometres of new track and five new stations at Morley, Noranda, Ballajura, Whiteman Park and Ellenbrook in Perth's north-east.

Jointly funded by the commonwealth and state governments, the $1.65 billion project is the largest public transport project since the city's Mandurah Line was completed in 2007."

$1.65 billion for 21km of new track and five new stations. That's about the same price and distance as Brisbane metro. Except it is a new line and has new, expensive stations built. Also includes a tunnel.
It was also delivered on time and on cost? And halves commuters times while increasing capacity.

https://www.buildingfortomorrow.wa.gov.au/projects/morley-ellenbrook-line/

The Ellenbrook line was built mostly in a reserved corridor in the middle of a freeway, or over totally greenfield land. None of these exist in the context of the Brisbane region we are talking about (ie the corridor from the city to Eight Mile Plains-ish). As a result it would require extensive tunneling, viaducts, or resumptions, which all severely add to the cost.

https://www.alstom.com/press-releases-news/2017/3/alstom-delivers-on-time-the-first-metro-trainset-to-riyadh

"The metro trains are 100% motorized, allowing them to run on gradients of up to a 6% slope. The trains are designed to run on standard-gauge track at a top speed of 90 km/".

https://www.railwaygazette.com/traction-and-rolling-stock/fart-train-on-show-at-innotrans/67484.article

"Stadler is known for its tailor-made trains, and the 1 000 mm gauge EMU can cope with maximum gradients of 6% using pure adhesion operation."

[#Metro]

From reading this, it sounds like the $20 billion is the 'full cost of building Sydney Metro City and Southwest', rather than upgrading of the T3 line. It also includes converting 10 old stations to stations that are very similar to our current busway stations (better looking, but similar standard)

Response from Sydney Metro re: T3 Bankstown line conversion-only component cost:

Sydney Metro City & Southwest is being delivered as a single project. We are unable to provide any further breakdown on project costs.

Thanks,

Project Communications Team
City & Southwest

Sydney Metro

IMO primarily using the SEB alignment and placing tracks in it would still probably be 0.5 to 1 billion/km, requiring OHLE/electric 3rd rail, power substations, station raising and extension, tunnels into the CBD and at least 2 underground CBD stations. Hence the choice of BERT / Brisbane Metro BRT for now. BCC might have some further info on the rail-based metro option if they evaluated it.

The original Quirk Metro was actually rubber tyred trains similar to certain types of metro train used in France. I believe they are used widely in Montreal, Canada also. This allows them to handle steeper grades.

You can see the rubber tyres on the metro train in these video clips:

[Habitant]

As a native Montrealer, it warms my heart to see our beloved Metro here on the RBOT forums!

I can confirm the Montreal Metro runs entirely on rubber tires. It is also entirely underground, given Montreal's weather.

[Gazza]

Yeah there's no point in talking about an SEB conversion imo because i think the conversion process would take too long.

At least in Sydney the conversions already had track and ohle, it was just signalling and screen doors, and that still took a year!

An SEB from conversion is starting from scratch, platforms need to be raised, ohle, signalling, tracks (yes even if you do rubber tyre VAL you still need to install tracks) , and then the associated replacement services during construction.

Theres better value projects out there.

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1852070027010396339

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1853214589879734704?t=IJfuukK1xdvrwMDv2w78yg&s=19

[Habitant]

Yeah there's no point in talking about an SEB conversion imo because i think the conversion process would take too long.

At least in Sydney the conversions already had track and ohle, it was just signalling and screen doors, and that still took a year!

An SEB from conversion is starting from scratch, platforms need to be raised, ohle, signalling, tracks (yes even if you do rubber tyre VAL you still need to install tracks) , and then the associated replacement services during construction.

Theres better value projects out there.

It'll need to be done eventually, but I think the BERT just extended the busway's lifespan by 20years

[Gazza]

Why does it need to be a conversion and not a brand new line?

[timh]

Why does it need to be a conversion and not a brand new line?

Agreed. Leave the busway where it is. When we run out of capacity there, build new lines closer to where growth centres actually are (ie not next to the freeway)

[ozbob]

What actually is the Brisbane "Metro"?

[#Metro]

Some comments on the CityMoose video relation to the comparison made with Perth:

- Perth costs need to be adjusted up by ~ 2x to get a realistic value for the same thing on the East Coast.

- Comparison to Ellenbrook line $1.6b does not consider that in the Brisbane case (a) the upgrade would be to a rail-based metro system ($$$) not commuter rail ($$) and (b) a tunnel would be required to be constructed under the Brisbane River in the Brisbane case ($$$). The Perth Ellenbrook line piggybacks off an existing rail line.

- The comparable value for the SEB as a rail-based metro is thus closer to $1b/km (Sydney Metro), or about $14b. Yes, the corridor is there, however...all stations would have to be rebuilt, lengthened and raised to railway carriage height, enclosed with platform screen doors, electrified, and power substations added.

Evacuating a train with 1000 pax on it is also very different to evacuating a bus with 150 pax on it, so it is possible the emergency exits in the existing busway tunnels would also have to be modified as well.

And as for the name...   

[SilverChased]

Why is Perth generally half the price? If we could make our infrastructure projects half the price, we would have significantly more.
Is it just the flat surfaces?

.
And as for the name...   

Doesn't Woolworths Metro just mean an overpriced Woolworths that you mainly find in city areas?
Oh, I suppose that's like these buses

[ozbob]

The name Brisbane Metro is being used to hide the fact that is it is just 'improved bus rapid transit'.

We all know that, even if some live under the delusion. A marketing and political con.

It doesn't mean that it will not have the advantages and disadvantages of bus rapid transit, but it is nothing more. If a more appropriate name had been used, the marketing would not be distracted by the ' it is not really a metro ' feedback and commentary that is constant. The inappropriate name will continue to be an issue until it is changed.

[verbatim9]

They will need to have an overall rebranding when the decide to build a proper underground driverless subway/metro. I don't think they will bother at the moment though.

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1855754378894012891?t=HtaC2DG2o8g9P7iyTB2WdQ&s=19

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Metro trial to end tomorrow

[verbatim9]

I don't like those grab bars above the doorways as it obstructs entering and getting off the vehicles for taller people. Regular buses don't have the grab bars above the doorways for that reason.

There were also posts about the doors not closing during rain events on social media. Apparently, the sensors thought the rain was some kind of obstruction, preventing the doors to close.

[SilverChased]

Not sure if anyone noticed, but whenever Bertie goes inside the tunnel near PA Hospital, the PID and voice-overs go crazy, similar to this:
The next station is PA Hospital
The next station is Buranda
The bext station is Boggo Road
The next station is PA Hospital

It seems overly reliant on GPS signal.

[verbatim9]

It should be a combination of 5G and GPS. I noticed that I loose signal with Optus through that tunnel.

[verbatim9]

Here is the survey link for those whom have experienced it

https://feedback.brisbane.qld.gov.au/jfe/form/SV_eUS9gPu5B7Sr2RM?source=QRcode3&utm_source=qrc&utm_medium=screen&utm_campaign=brisbane_metro_feedback

[STB]

Yeah there's no point in talking about an SEB conversion imo because i think the conversion process would take too long.

At least in Sydney the conversions already had track and ohle, it was just signalling and screen doors, and that still took a year!

An SEB from conversion is starting from scratch, platforms need to be raised, ohle, signalling, tracks (yes even if you do rubber tyre VAL you still need to install tracks) , and then the associated replacement services during construction.

Theres better value projects out there.

Also the issue that parts of the busway (mostly the raised sections) would need to be rebuilt to take the weight of trams/light rail.  I remember an Engineer who I used to work with many years ago point out that the raised section between Normanby and Kelvin Grove is currently not designed to be strong enough to take on the weight of a tram/light rail, same with the Victoria Bridge apparently.  So if trams/light rail conversion happens, it'll still be a major construction job, may also need the tunnels and platforms reconfigured to prevent people walking onto the busway itself, given at the busway stations, it's set up to have a passing lane and a lane for the bus to physically pull into the station.  You won't want that for a tram/light rail.

[Cleveland Line]

'We should be worried': Brisbane Metro 'preview' rolls to a quiet stop

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/we-should-be-worried-brisbane-metro-preview-rolls-to-a-quiet-stop-20241117-p5krax.html

A much-hyped partial start to Brisbane City Council's $1.4 billion Metro bus project has come to a quiet end just one month after it began.

In an update to the Translink and council websites on Friday, the double-length electric vehicles' use of the 169 route was said to be stopping....

If KGS works continue until mid 2025, how will M1 and M2 services start before then? What routes would they take? Another preview phase/soft launch/pilot?

[AnonymouslyBad]

If KGS works continue until mid 2025, how will M1 and M2 services start before then? What routes would they take? Another preview phase/soft launch/pilot?

Could it be that they can use the Queen St tunnel after all?

Not sure if anyone noticed, but whenever Bertie goes inside the tunnel near PA Hospital, the PID and voice-overs go crazy, similar to this:
The next station is PA Hospital
The next station is Buranda
The bext station is Boggo Road
The next station is PA Hospital

It seems overly reliant on GPS signal.

Eh, these kind of systems always are, though for underground running the operator will put in some customisations to deal with it.

Just another example of missing the basics.
To be fair Brisbane 'Metro' is far from the only system to go live with this kind of thing not fixed yet.

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1858171959286333457

[Jonno]

This really is a total disaster of a project. Maybe that is what Translink were quietly waiting for. Wait for the stuff up and then have the ammo to say "Never again"

[ozbob]

BCC Rep will be on ABC Radio Breakfast after 7:10am today 18th November 2024.

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/live/brisbane

[ozbob]

BCC Rep will be on ABC Radio Breakfast after 7:10am today 18th November 2024.

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/live/brisbane

Interview 18th November 2024 ABC Radio Brisbane Breakfast with Cr Ryan Murphy and Hosts Loretta Ryan and Craig Zonca discuss route 169 trial.

> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_break_rm_18nov24.mp3 MP3 3.7MB

[Gazza]

Reality is dawning that with LNP in at both the state and council level, any stuff ups with the bus changes are theirs to own.

[nathandavid88]

Could it be that they can use the Queen St tunnel after all?

I don't think there was any reason why the LighTrams physically couldn't use the tunnel, it was just having that many vehicles using the one tunnel could form a bottleneck.