Discussion: Options for competitive tendering / privatisation of rail

[#Metro]

Queensland Rail was subject to public sector staff cuts because it was a public organisation.

In a public agency, politicians rule.

I think under CT the company would decide who sits on the board, they would not be hand picked by the politicians.

Staff levels and allocation would also be decided by the company, and not by the politicians.

It's funding levels would be protected by the contract it made with suing the gov't in court if it reneged.

Contract would still be valid even with change of gov't - so some stability there also.

It would be less likely or attractive to appoint ex politicians or lobbyists etc. to the QR board.

If it wasn't public, it wouldn't have been subject to Campbell Newmans public sector staff cuts.

The politicians would not have anywhere near as much micro-mismanagement over staff in the organisation IMHO.

---

Update:

I can also show the Wellington (NZ), Auckland (NZ) and Stockholm (Swe) networks are also subject to CT and privately operated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transdev_Auckland

Transdev Auckland, formerly Veolia Transport Auckland, Ltd., and before that Connex Auckland, Ltd., is a Transdev Australasia company. It runs Auckland's urban passenger trains under contract from Auckland Transport on infrastructure owned and managed by KiwiRail.

Wellington's trains to be run by French company Transdev after KiwiRail loses contract
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/75208588/Wellingtons-trains-to-be-run-by-French-company-Transdev-after-KiwiRail-loses-contract

Greater Wellington Regional Council on Thursday selected Transdev Australasia as its preferred future operator for the passenger rail network that services Wellington, Hutt Valley, Porirua, Kapiti and Wairarapa.

Stockholm metro
https://www.mtr.com.hk/en/corporate/consultancy/stockholmmetro.html

Stockholm Metro is operated by MTR Tunnelbanan AB, a 100% owned subsidiary of MTR Nordic AB, which is wholly owned by MTR Corporation.

The Stockholm metro system is owned by the Stockholm County Council through Storstockholms Lokaltrafik (Stockholm Public Transport). On 2 November 2009, MTR Tunnelbanan AB took over the operation of Stockholm Metro under an 8-year operation and maintenance concession. On 8 September 2015, Stockholm County Council extended the concession for a further six years, covering the period from 2017 to 2023. The system comprises of 3 lines with a total length of 110km and has 100 stations, of which 47 are underground.

The maintenance of the rolling stock is taken up by MTR Tech AB, a 100% owned subsidiary of MTR Nordic AB.

[Gazza]

To be honest, I'd rather just wait a year or so, see how the NGR and new drivers are bedded in. This could have all just been a flash in the pan by then.

And it would take that long to ready QR for a transition to competitive tendering anyway, if the Melbourne experience is anything to go by.

[#Metro]

To be honest, I'd rather just wait a year or so, see how the NGR and new drivers are bedded in. This could have all just been a flash in the pan by then.

And it would take that long to ready QR for a transition to competitive tendering anyway, if the Melbourne experience is anything to go by.

It's a good point there. Agreed. It would need to be done properly and slowly. Especially with Kweensland Government.

It can't just be any CT, I will support a contract for service model, but I am very opposed to franchising models.

A CT process also guarantees that the organisation is thoroughly reviewed every 8 years (or whenever the contracts come up for renewal).

In NZ it seems KiwiRail (state rail operator) does bid for running its own passenger network. It recently lost the Wellington Rail network to a company, but it can bid again next time the contracts come up for renewal.


Friday, November 11, 2016
Stop Press: QR axe Rosewood Line weekend services
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2016/11/stop-press-qr-axe-rosewood-line-weekend.html

BrizCommuter thinks that it is time for the transport minister Stirling Hinchcliffe (pictured) to also be "cancelled", and also time to again question whether a more competent private company could run QR much better. The worsening train woes are likely to cause the Palaszczuk government to be annihilated at the next election - Queensland voters do not taken fools gladly.

[#Metro]

Results now available!

[verbatim9]

Mmm! I would think Transdev as a good contender !?

[ozbob]

Last weekend, #Transdev took over the running of @Wellington_NZ 's #rail service ! cc @metlinkwgtn #newchallenge pic.twitter.com/A3zCxcZyq1

— Transdev Group (@transdev) July 4, 2016

[#Metro]

Mmm! I would think Transdev as a good contender !?

Well verbatim9, it is pretty clear that most people on this forum want state ownership.

I think it is a bit of a double standard really.

Of course, a "bad" private operator (i.e. Connex) would be paraded around as an example of the "failure of privatisation".

But when Melbourne had a bad operator, it gave it the boot! And that's exactly the power TransLink needs - THE BOOT.

When an operator gets the boot, that isn't a failure of the system. That is the system working as it should.

It's like Annastacia losing an election. Not a failure of democracy, but the democratic process working as it should.

We need a process to get rid of bad operators, and right now we don't have such a process. It is too politically incorrect to think about it.

As to your main question, I have had more time to think, and I think Queensland Rail could really become a great rail company that competes for business both inside and outside Queensland, just like its freight division did. How to do it? Give it over to QIC and let them do the overhaul. And then after three years, open the SEQ Rail network to competitive tendering.

Who knows, it might be Queensland Rail running the trains in Melbourne in the future.

You don't get change by re-affirming the status quo. It will make you unpopular, people who have something to lose will make a big deal, people who have something to gain will say nothing,  but I think it is the right way to go.

Thanks for asking!!

[Gazza]

D E N I E D
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I don't think there is a double standard at all. Everyone has their own set of reasons.

-I think privatisation works best if it is both above and below rail assets, and the line is physically segregated from other rail traffic...See GLink, Skytrain Canada Line.

Any other arrangement gives rise to the blame game.

-Kneejerk privatisation after an incident isnt a cool headed approach. Do the investigation, and sack the individual staff who did this.
The Goal is to have a good rail system, not doing this as a way to "punish" QR for their sins.

-Unconvinced that MTM are doing an amazing job.
The good off peak frequency is because the government is giving them funding to do so.
Otherwise, I cant really see what else is majorly better.
Despite years of privatisation, they're still tightening up contracts to stop them skippping stations etc

TL:DR privatisation for rail is fine, but QR in SEQ is not currently set up in a way that privatisation would result in a better outcome.

[HappyTrainGuy]

QR freight was different to the passenger arm. And they would never ever ever be running passenger trains in Melbourne.

[#Metro]

If Queensland Rail believes that it can provide a superior service, it can make that case and back it up in its bidding application.

Minister & TransLink can assess the application. The TransLink I imagine will have teeth and will not put up with poor service from any operator.

It will have teeth because it will finally be able to say NO to renewing a contract. BCC included!

Regional Services on Multi-user networks

MTR has also recently won the contract to operate regional trains in Sweden (in addition to its Stockholm metro contract). This is a mixed user system that has other operators share the tracks (notably the intercity state rail company SJ). Tracks owned by regional council. Change over will begin in December 2016.

MTR to operate Stockholm Pendeltåg
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/mtr-to-operate-stockholm-pendeltaag.html

(SJ - gov't railway company)

Operated since June 2006 by SJ subsidiary Stockholmståg, the Pendeltåg network consists of four routes with a combined length of 241 km and 53 stations. These radiate from central Stockholm to Bålsta in the northwest, Märsta in the north, Nynäshamn in the southeast and Södertälje and Gnesta to the southwest. The network currently carries around 300 000 passengers per day, totalling 87 million passenger-journeys a year.

SL outsources commuter train operations in Stockholm region to MTR
http://www.mannheimerswartling.se/en/news/news/sl-outsourcar-pendeltagsverksamheten-i-stockholmsregionen-till-mtr/

In addition to providing transport operation, the assignment comprises maintenance of all commuter trains, management of real property and stations and customer service related measures. While the majority of the compensation will be based on provision of traffic operation, a large amount is also incentive-based and related to passengers' satisfaction with the commuting experience, including timeliness and cleanliness of the trains and stations as well as the travel experience as a whole. The incentive-based amount can reach up to approximately SEK 200 million per year.

INDEC Report

For interest, I have also found the INDEC report from Hansard. Sometimes many people are involved, and the contributions to ultimate failure are dispersed. It is not always down to singular individuals, but a collective action or a series of a turn of events.

It might even involve management culture- certainly the way the board awarded bonuses and then appeared to obstruct subsequent investigation does not bode well.

INDEC - TRAIN SERVICE DELIVERY REVIEW January 2016.
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/Documents/TableOffice/TabledPapers/2016/5516T1941.pdf

Hansard containing link to INDEC report
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/Hansard/2016/2016_11_01_WEEKLY.pdf#search=(Queensland Rail)

"I have glimpsed through that report as well and it is very clear that some 20 senior people in Queensland
Rail were interviewed as part of this report and not one of them saw fit to raise it with government—not
one! That is atrocious and appalling. We are determined to fix this up."

[Gazza]

Has the MTR operations in Stockholm been  sucess?
It has been going for less than a year right?

Anyway, when is the 3rd poll variant on this coming out?

[#Metro]

Has the MTR operations in Stockholm been  sucess?
It has been going for less than a year right?

Nope! Really missing the mark there!!

SEVEN YEARS

http://mtreurope.com/railway-operations/stockholm-sweden/

Stockholm, Sweden

MTR took over operation of the Stockholm Metro in 2009. MTR Stockholm (MTRS) has responsibility for the running and planning of the Stockholm Metro system spanning three lines with 100 stations, 108km of track and 1.1 million journeys per weekday.

Bringing greater focus on security, punctuality, cleanliness and customer service, MTR Stockholm is delivering tangible improvements. MTR Stockholm's operational performance continues to develop, receiving recognition from the Swedish Institute of Quality for Successful Business Development in 2013.  MTR Stockholm patronage in the year to July 2014 was 328 million.

In fact it is so good, they got a glowing report from the County Council commissioner and had their contract extended to 2023.

https://mtr.com.hk/archive/corporate/en/press_release/PR-15-073-E.pdf

Six-Year Extension of MTR's Stockholm Metro Concession

New Records Set for Train Service Punctuality
The MTR Corporation welcomes the announcement by Stockholm County Council yesterday
(8 September 2015) of a six-year extension of its concession to operate the Stockholm Metro
through its wholly owned subsidiary MTR Stockholm (MTRS). The extension covers the period
from 2017 to 2023.

...

"I am very pleased with the MTR's high performance standards and focus on customer service.
We look forward to working closely with MTR as we introduce new trains and advanced
signalling and further expand the railway network in the coming years," said Mr Kristoffer
Tamsons, County Council Commissioner and Chairman of the Board of SL, the city's public
transport agency

Bring on the competition!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

I hear Metro have an excellent report card here as well taking the title for worst rail transport operator for the 6th year running 

[#Metro]

I hear Metro have an excellent report card here as well taking the title for worst rail transport operator for the 6th year running 

There is a mechanism to get rid of "bad" operators in Victoria. It has been used before.

Victorians have the option to get rid of them if they are not happy. Unlike here.

If Queensland Rail is so good (maybe it is), it can write down its claims and put that in its bid application and submit that to TransLink.

And TransLink would not be the ' rubber stamp ' organisation that it is now. It would absolutely have the ability to turn down a bid.



Satisfaction regularly monitored in Melbourne, shows steady improvement over time since Metro took over running the network.

Metro started in 2009.

https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/about-ptv/ptv-data-and-reports/customer-satisfaction-monitor/

[SurfRail]

If TransLink is competent enough to administer the rail system properly, it would be competent enough to run it without middlemen.

The barriers to entry in the rail industry are huge and tend to concentrate market power in the hands of a very small group of companies, so it is questionable whether there is any real competition. 

Buses and ferries are different box of frogs.

[#Metro]

If TransLink is competent enough to administer the rail system properly, it would be competent enough to run it without middlemen.

TransLink runs no services - it is a regulator that negotiates contracts with operators. And it is a division of the Department of Transport and Main Roads. So people want DTMR to run the trains?


The more cities that introduce CT, the more competitive the environment will become over time.

Remember, a proposed operator needs to compete against the current operator, and that would be Queensland Rail.

Queensland Rail does have strengths (ignoring recent events) and the advantage of incumbency.

And it could be a built up to a point where it too could look at operating trains in other cities (for a fee, of course).


Once this current problem is sorted out, Queensland Rail could be built up to be competitive.

I imagine there would be at least four bids:

- Queensland Rail
- MTR Hong Kong / Melbourne
- Veolia Transport / TransDev
- Keolis Downer

If we look at the NZ process, there were KiwiRail, Serco NZ and TransDev. So perhaps KiwiRail and Serco might join, which would give six bidders. https://at.govt.nz/about-us/news-events/aucklands-rail-contract-tender-postponed/

If we look at Wellington (NZ) tender TWO Australian companies were also bidding and made the short list http://www.gw.govt.nz/short-list-finalised-for-rail-contract/

Transdev Australasia Pty Ltd in a joint venture with South Korean-based company Hyundai Rotem. Transdev operates Auckland's train service, Sydney's light rail, ferries in Sydney and Brisbane, and bus services in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Darwin. Hyundai Rotem is the manufacturer of Wellington's electric Matangi trains and has extensive experience maintaining rolling stock around the world.

Keolis Downer, operator of Gold Coast Light Rail, also put in a bid.

Keolis Downer in a joint venture with KiwiRail. Keolis Downer operates the Gold Coast light rail network in Queensland, Australia and Keolis operates Melbourne's Yarra tram services. KiwiRail currently operates Wellington's train services and maintains the region's train fleet.

With an active government, they could also look at seeing if Singapore's SMRT or Deutche Bahn (Arriva) are interested.


To win the Stockholm regional commuter trains contract, MTR had to fight off four other companies, including the state rail operator SJ:

STOCKHOLM County Council announced on December 8 that it has selected MTR Nordic, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Hong Kong's MTR Corporation, for a concession to operate the Stockholm Pendeltåg suburban rail network for 10 years from December 2016.

...

MTR beat off competition from Abellio, Keolis, Swedish national train operator SJ, and Tågkompaniet for the contract, which could be worth up to SKr 30bn ($US 3.5bn) if the county council exercises an option for a four-year extension. In addition to operations, MTR will be responsible for rolling stock maintenance and station management.

MTR wins Stockholm suburban rail concession
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/commuter-rail/mtr-wins-stockholm-suburban-rail-concession.html

I have never heard of Abellio, so I checked out their website and it seems to be the Netherlands State Railway operator NS.
https://www.abellio.com/about-us/company-history

I would love to see TransPerth become involved, but they are not going to come to Queensland unless they are paid profits to do so, and

there is some process to allow competition from other operators.


You can always test the level of competition by calling for an Expression Of Interest (EOI) process. Would you support that?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Queensland Rail isn't a private operator. Its a State statuary operator. Stop making these stupid bloody ideas that if built up QR could start running or bidding for services in other states. It simply just will not happen. There's a reason as to why QR expanded with freight/coal/services as it was a GOC. Just like the ports, Stanwell, Powerlink, Energex and even QIC which you referred to earlier. It was immune from public service cuts/employment freezes and mostly referred to the Treasury on performance targets. QR already had the business set up just waiting to expand due to its experience, size and monopoly in Queensland which no other state or operator had. While other states were privitising, selling, infrastructure was running into the ground and franchising, QR was establishing itself acquiring other freight operators/services and continuing to learn. ARTC had nothing on QR. It just so happened that when QR branched out it was at the right exact moment. They won hundreds of millions from other state and federal governments for infrastructure services (at one point in time they had 80%? of the national rail grinding services with another mob over in WA being the only other operator). They bought other rail operators and their contracts. They won freight/coal/iron ore contracts due to their background in Queensland. Narrow gauge locomotives were repurposed in other states. Melbourne-Cairns freight was now very fast by rail due to the turn around times at Acacia Ridge and QR's dominance of fleet and depots in Queensland. They won network design contracts. The long distance passenger arm in Queensland was even propped up by the freight side running mixed passenger freight services. It was a machine that grabbed everything as it blitzed the market.

Since the split however a lot of that has gone. Aurizon no longer engages in passenger services - both mtce, overhaul and long distance. The majority of the services group went to Aurizon. QR has changed so much internally for the bad since the split and its gutting. And now you can see how much political influence has compared to the freight days.

And all this comparing it to the current operator. What are you comparing exactly? What translink wants to run for its money? how many services translink requests?

Just lay off all this crap for once. Its a repeat of BT a couple years ago.

[verbatim9]

If TransLink is competent enough to administer the rail system properly, it would be competent enough to run it without middlemen.

TransLink runs no services - it is a regulator that negotiates contracts with operators. And it is a division of the Department of Transport and Main Roads. So people want DTMR to run the trains?


The more cities that introduce CT, the more competitive the environment will become over time.

Remember, a proposed operator needs to compete against the current operator, and that would be Queensland Rail.

Queensland Rail does have strengths (ignoring recent events) and the advantage of incumbency.

And it could be a built up to a point where it too could look at operating trains in other cities (for a fee, of course).


Once this current problem is sorted out, Queensland Rail could be built up to be competitive.

I imagine there would be at least four bids:

- Queensland Rail
- MTR Hong Kong / Melbourne
- Veolia Transport / TransDev
- Keolis Downer

If we look at the NZ process, there were KiwiRail, Serco NZ and TransDev. So perhaps KiwiRail and Serco might join, which would give six bidders. https://at.govt.nz/about-us/news-events/aucklands-rail-contract-tender-postponed/

If we look at Wellington (NZ) tender TWO Australian companies were also bidding and made the short list http://www.gw.govt.nz/short-list-finalised-for-rail-contract/

Transdev Australasia Pty Ltd in a joint venture with South Korean-based company Hyundai Rotem. Transdev operates Auckland's train service, Sydney's light rail, ferries in Sydney and Brisbane, and bus services in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Darwin. Hyundai Rotem is the manufacturer of Wellington's electric Matangi trains and has extensive experience maintaining rolling stock around the world.

Keolis Downer, operator of Gold Coast Light Rail, also put in a bid.

Keolis Downer in a joint venture with KiwiRail. Keolis Downer operates the Gold Coast light rail network in Queensland, Australia and Keolis operates Melbourne's Yarra tram services. KiwiRail currently operates Wellington's train services and maintains the region's train fleet.

With an active government, they could also look at seeing if Singapore's SMRT or Deutche Bahn (Arriva) are interested.


To win the Stockholm regional commuter trains contract, MTR had to fight off four other companies, including the state rail operator SJ:

STOCKHOLM County Council announced on December 8 that it has selected MTR Nordic, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Hong Kong's MTR Corporation, for a concession to operate the Stockholm Pendeltåg suburban rail network for 10 years from December 2016.

...

MTR beat off competition from Abellio, Keolis, Swedish national train operator SJ, and Tågkompaniet for the contract, which could be worth up to SKr 30bn ($US 3.5bn) if the county council exercises an option for a four-year extension. In addition to operations, MTR will be responsible for rolling stock maintenance and station management.

MTR wins Stockholm suburban rail concession
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/commuter-rail/mtr-wins-stockholm-suburban-rail-concession.html

I have never heard of Abellio, so I checked out their website and it seems to be the Netherlands State Railway operator NS.
https://www.abellio.com/about-us/company-history

I would love to see TransPerth become involved, but they are not going to come to Queensland unless they are paid profits to do so, and

there is some process to allow competition from other operators.


You can always test the level of competition by calling for an Expression Of Interest (EOI) process. Would you support that?

[#Metro]

Hello HTG,

Queensland Rail isn't a private operator. Its a State statuary operator.

It is more complicated than that. It is a statutory authority that holds a limited shell company underneath it that officially has no employees.

The statutory board is simultaneously the board for the company. Seems unusual.

Queensland Rail is a statutory authority established under the Queensland Rail Transit Authority Act 2013 (Qld) (QRTA Act) and is a statutory body for the purposes of the Financial Accountability Act 2009 (Qld) and the Statutory Bodies Financial Arrangements Act 1982 (Qld).

Queensland Rail discharges its statutory functions through its wholly-owned subsidiary Queensland Rail Limited (QRL). QRL does not employ any personnel, but owns all non-employee related assets and contracts. It performs the role of rail transport operator under the Transport (Rail Safety) Act 2010 (Qld). The Board Members of Queensland Rail are also appointed as Directors of QRL.

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/about%20us/Pages/Corporategovernance.aspx

So it would seem that Queensland Rail could act outside Queensland through its corporate subsidiary, or a new subsidiary.

Have you considered that The Constitution of Queensland also appears to permit the state to act outside of Queensland? And that this extends to "commercial" activities. I reproduce the relevant section here for you:

Constitution of Queensland Act (2001)
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/C/ConstofQA01.pdf

Part 5 Powers of the State
Division 1 General

51 Powers of the State
(1) The Executive Government of the State of Queensland (the
State) has all the powers, and the legal capacity, of an
individual.
(2) The State may exercise its powers—
(a) inside and outside Queensland; and
(b) inside and outside Australia.
(3) This part does not limit the State's powers.
Example—
This part does not affect any power a Minister has apart from this part
to bind the State by contract.

Division 2 Commercial activities
52 Definitions for div 2

In this division—
commercial activities includes—

(a) commercial activities that are not within the ordinary
functions of the State; and

(b) commercial activities of a competitive nature; and

(c) activities declared by an Act to be commercial activities;
but does not include activities declared by an Act not to be
commercial activities.

[s 53]
Constitution of Queensland 2001
Chapter 3 Governor and Executive Government
Current as at 23 September 2016 Page 29
Authorised by the Parliamentary Counsel
State includes a public sector unit.

53 Commercial activities by State

(1) The State may carry out commercial activities.
(2) This section is sufficient statutory authority for the State to
carry out a commercial activity.

(3) Commercial activities may be carried out—
(a) without further statutory authority; and
(b) without prior appropriation from the consolidated fund
for the purpose.

(4) Commercial activities may be carried out—
(a) inside and outside Queensland; and
(b) inside and outside Australia.
54 Commercial activities by Minister

A Minister may carry out commercial activities for the State.

You are correct that the former freight arm of Queensland Rail (now Aurizon) did very well. Other states allowed it to operate in their jurisdiction and compete. I am aware that QIC owns shopping centres and Port of Melbourne in Victoria.

As I have demonstrated elsewhere on this forum, The Government of France (SNCF) and Quebec have a stake in Yarra Trams, and The Government of Netherlands railways has a stake in operating trains in Scotland.

It can be done.

Just lay off all this crap for once. Its a repeat of BT a couple years ago.

Don't you worry about that - a beefed up TransLink with teeth will deal with BCC too.

They won't be refusing to meet TransLink on six occasions like they did in 2013!

I agree - it will cut the crap, it absolutely will!

[#Metro]

Couldn't make it up if you tried!

Queensland Rail knocks back offer of help amid staffing crisis

QUEENSLAND Rail has shunned a lifeline cast by Melbourne's rail operator to ease its driver shortage calamity by helping speed up the training of hundreds of new recruits.

Melbourne's Metro Trains offered to come to QR's rescue on November 8 by supplying driver trainers to help clear a major backlog in training.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/queensland-government/queensland-rail-knocks-back-offer-of-help-amid-staffing-crisis/news-story/0eceffc8c73bad28df1f5a5dc2b89676

[HappyTrainGuy]

So metro were going to send Melbourne qualified drivers to train drivers on a network they were unqualified to run on??

[Gazza]

Nah, just run training school modules of "generic" non state specific content.

No mention of how much of the overall course that is.

[petey3801]

Nah, just run training school modules of "generic" non state specific content.

No mention of how much of the overall course that is.

Very, very little! I would honestly be surprised if it were more than 1 week worth.

[#Metro]

Continues from the other thread https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12649.msg188052#msg188052

Oh grow up you little whinge bag. You are the one that constantly wants to privatise everything be it buses, trains or whatever. I only pointed out that there is no point in splitting traveltrain from qr because its only handful of services and what's it going to achieve? Nothing. You still have to maintain the rollingstock and the infrastructure is still being maintained by queensland rail. Why waste millions forming a new government department for what?

You are the one that keeps harping on about Queensland Rail (not seq rail) should only be looking after the seq area. Its not worth going through all the hassle of splitting it up. What's the point? Public perception? Give me a break.

I only pointed out the ways that state governments have attempted to privatise railway assets by sketchy backdoor plans. You mention that the railways in nsw were split up and are still both public. I only rebutted with what the government has actually done since it was spilt. NSW has gone down the same route that QR did when it came to splitting. All nice and packaged up and when someone wants to make a quick buck its gone in an instant. Hence me making the reference. And trust me I have left a lot of sh%t out.

There was a lobbiest that kept donating funds to the LNP who was in favor of privatising the states pt assets who just so happened to be part/spokesperson for the same independent group that recommend that nsw should split its railway assets up for privatising (this just prior to the LNP government releasing their study into railcorp). Then came the split. Then the following night the end of the Newcastle line suddenly had been proposed to be closed again much to the annoyance to the locals that lived there and the proposal was just rushed through. The line was closed and it was only due to the public getting an injunction on the state government to not remove any infrastructure that it was still in operating condition despite trains terminating a few km down the line. Then a new bill was passed and the courts ruled against them and the line was ripped up a few days later. The government spruced plans for a new bling light rail network and big interchange hub. Some report recommend against it saying travel times would increase and a number of other things etc etc etc (think if the MBRL was built in the 1940's to the redcliffe jetty and the Newman government decided to shorten the line back to Kippa Ring and replace it with buses and a different light rail route via the Dolphins footy club). After the line was torn up the nsw governments planning group (forget what their called) tried to push through rezoning changes to build/allow other developers to build multistory buildings on the railway corridor to which the Newcastle council recently denied. The electricity network in NSW was privatised under a 100 year lease. Once more people started diving into the background more shady stuff came out. Baird's approval rating dropped to the lowest its ever been for a premier. Plans for privatising all the pt except the railway in Newcastle was released. Even more shady stuff surfaces in regards to westconnex and still does. Documents regarding future privatisation for the railways and states buses were made public but their details weren't released. STA was on the chopping block but the stage government announced that the STA won't be privatised in Sydney however 200 jobs would be cut. Then it was formally announced that buses, ferries, light rail and infrastructure was now privatised in Newscastle.

I really can't be assed arguing when you no or minimal understanding of what actually goes on.

I had breakfast this morning. You know what? The cereal was made by a private, profit making corporation.

There was fruit in it - who knows what foreign countries they were sourced from?

Public servants didn't make it. Can you believe?? My breakfast was privatised!

Life really does exist outside of government departments.

Our ferries, light rail, aircraft, taxis and buses are already privately operated. For decades.

So it does not concern me that SEQ trains might one day be run by a private contractor. If they win the contract - Good luck to them.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Well good for you. Go catch a bowl of cereal to the city then.

[Stillwater]

Remember the days when packets of cereal came with a toy train inside?  Until people realised that the toy was so small, children could swallow it and choke.  That's what happens when breakfast food manufacturers seek to provide public transport.  Metro, your comparisons make no sense.

[#Metro]

Remember the days when packets of cereal came with a toy train inside?  Until people realised that the toy was so small, children could swallow it and choke.  That's what happens when breakfast food manufacturers seek to provide public transport.  Metro, your comparisons make no sense.

Privatisation causes child asphyxiation??

Queensland Rail's trains are made by Bombardier. A portion of that company is formerly Commonwealth Engineering (ComEng), a government owned corporation that was privatised. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonwealth_Engineering

So you have already caught a privatised train many times. Not to mention the privately operated buses (Surfside, Logan Buses), trams (Keolis Gold Coast Light Rail) and CityCat (TransDev TSL).

Who died?

The Government of Australia took control of the company during World War II to produce materials in the Granville factory. The government purchased a controlling stake in the company in 1946 and changed the name to Commonwealth Engineering. The Dandenong plant was sold in 1990 to ABB Transportation and is now operated by Bombardier Transportation while the Bassendean facility was sold to A Goninan & Co.

[HappyTrainGuy]

  Look its the choo choo train to looneyville. Next stop at Metro's computer.

Look I could easily egg on this conversation and say look at the privatised NGR sets we are currently commuting to the city on. Or how private oil companies said its fine to have lead in petrol. Or how those private smoking companies said smoking is good for you.

Seriously. Take a step back and relax. Take a bottle or two of alprazolam. You've got so deep into a rant you have no idea what the hell you are even talking about anymore.

[Gazza]

The Cereal analogy is not the same as a train service.

Time to step away from the public ownership bogeyman.

Heaps of cities have good publicly owned rail systems.

A simple thought experiment  proves that a public system can be better than a privatised system with weak contract administration.

there is nobody as blind as he who already KNOWS what he thinks the answer is

In economics, the desirability of state ownership has been studied in contract theory. According to the property rights approach based on incomplete contracting (developed by Oliver Hart and his co-authors), ownership matters because it determines what happens in contingencies that were not considered in prevailing contracts.[8] The work by Hart, Shleifer and Vishny (1997) is the leading application of the property rights approach to the question whether state ownership or private ownership is desirable.[9] In their model, the government and a private firm can invest to improve the quality of a public good and to reduce its production costs. It turns out that private ownership results in strong incentives to reduce costs, but it may also lead to poor quality. Hence, depending on the available investment technologies, there are situations in which state ownership is better. The Hart-Shleifer-Vishny theory has been extended in many directions. For instance, some authors have also considered mixed forms of private ownership and state ownership.[10] Moreover, the Hart-Shleifer-Vishny model assumes that the private party derives no utility from provision of the public good. Besley and Ghatak (2001) have shown that if the private party (a non-governmental organization) cares about the public good, then the party with the larger valuation of the public good should always be the owner, regardless of the parties' investment technologies.[11] Yet, more recently some authors have shown that the investment technology also matters in the Besley-Ghatak framework if an investing party is indispensable[12] or if there are bargaining frictions between the government and the private party.[13]

Metronet has been put into administration with debts of at least £2 billion. It had two of the three 30-year, £17 billion contracts under the Labour government's hugely unpopular Public Private Partnership (PPP) programme to maintain and renew the London Underground rail network. Metronet's owners, five international corporations, refused to put in another penny beyond their original £350 million commitment under the terms of the contract.
With Metronet's debts guaranteed by Transport for London (TfL), London Underground's parent body, and ultimately the government, the taxpayers, workforce and travelling public will bear the cost. Yet another privatisation has proved to be a disaster.
Metronet's bankruptcy was precipitated by the refusal of the Rail Arbiter to award more than a fraction of its appeal for increased payments from London Underground to fund its near £1 billion overspend and a further £1 billion projected overspend by 2010. Chris Bolt, the Arbiter, said that if Metronet "had delivered in an efficient and economic way, its costs would have been lower". 

   The RATP Group (French: Groupe RATP), also known as the Régie Autonome des Transports Parisiens (English: Autonomous Operator of Parisian Transports) is a state-owned public transport operator headquartered in Paris, France. Formed in 1948, the group has its origins as the public transport operator for the city of Paris. Its logo represents, in a stylized version, the Seine's meandering through the area around Paris as the face of a person looking up.

Today RATP is still responsible for most of the public transport in Paris and its surrounding Île-de-France region, including the Paris Métro, tram and bus services and part of the Réseau Express Régional (RER) network. In the Île-de-France region, RATP carries about 3 billion passengers per year.[1]

[#Metro]

A simple thought experiment  proves

What's up with the parrotting? Nasty. 

Heaps of cities have good publicly owned rail systems.

Brisbane isn't one of them 

RAIL Back on Track wishes to comment on the Strachan Inquiry Report and proposes the following recovery plan.  It is essential that Queensland Rail return to a full timetable not later than January 2018. If Queensland Rail is not able to achieve that deadline consideration should be given to replacing Queensland Rail with an operator that will.

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12341.msg188075#msg188075

QR Axe Rosewood Line Weekend Services
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/11/stop-press-qr-axe-rosewood-line-weekend.html

BrizCommuter thinks that it is time for the transport minister Stirling Hinchliffe (pictured) to also be "cancelled", and also time to again question whether a more competent private company could run QR much better. The worsening train woes are likely to cause the Palaszczuk government to be annihilated at the next election - Queensland voters do not taken fools gladly.

RATP

The RATP Group (French: Groupe RATP), also known as the Régie Autonome des Transports Parisiens (English: Autonomous Operator of Parisian Transports) is a state-owned public transport operator headquartered in Paris, France. Formed in 1948, the group has its origins as the public transport operator for the city of Paris. Its logo represents, in a stylized version, the Seine's meandering through the area around Paris as the face of a person looking up.

Today RATP is still responsible for most of the public transport in Paris and its surrounding Île-de-France region, including the Paris Métro, tram and bus services and part of the Réseau Express Régional (RER) network. In the Île-de-France region, RATP carries about 3 billion passengers per year.[1]

Er, RATP is a commercialised, profit-seeking multinational public transport business like Keolis who run Yarra Trams.

RATP is good, so let them come to Brisbane and challenge Queensland Rail. Thanks for the tip Gazza!
Wouldn't have been aware of it otherwise. Another one to add to the list of Queensland Rail contract challengers.

Look forward to your support in bringing RATP to Queensland (along with other potential operators).

Whilst the RATP's Paris operations are still a major part of the business, its operations have now extended to include businesses around the globe. These include involvement in the operation of bus, tram, rapid transit and inter-city rail services, located in Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas. RATP Group is currently the world's fifth largest actor in the public transport sector.

RATP International operations

Algiers Metro, the rapid transit system in Algiers, Algeria

Autolinee Toscane, a coach operator in the area around Florence, Italy

Azienda Mobilità e Trasporti, the operator of the public transport network of Genoa, Italy

Bath Bus Company, an operator of City Sightseeing franchises in the English cities of Bath, Eastbourne, and Windsor, and the Welsh city of Cardiff, and of Air Decker services between Bath, south Bristol and Bristol Airport.

Casablanca Tramway, operating the tram in Casablanca, Morocco.

Dolomiti Bus, an urban and interurban bus operator in Belluno, Italy

Ferroviaria Italiana, a regional train and bus operator in Tuscany, Italy

Fullington Auto Bus Company, a bus operator and Trailways member in the north-eastern United States

Gautrain, an inter-city train operator in South Africa

Gem Bus, a cross-border bus operator serving areas of France and Switzerland around Geneva

GEST, operator of florence tramway.

London Sovereign, a bus operator in London, England

London United, a bus operator in London, England

Manchester Metrolink, light rail network in Greater Manchester, England and the largest light rail system in the United Kingdom.

McDonald Transit Associates, a contract transit operator in the United States

Quality Line/Epsom Coaches, a Surrey, England-based coach and bus operator

RATP Do Brasil, operator of line 4 of the São Paulo Metro, São Paulo, Brazil

Selwyns Travel, Runcorn, a large bus and coach group in the North West of England

RDMT, operator of Sun Link and DC Streetcar

The Original Tour

Veolia Transport RATP Asia (VTRA), a joint venture with Transdev and also known as Transdev RATPDev or RATP Dev Transdev Asia, operates:

Buses in Nanjing, China under a joint venture with Nanjing Zhongbei

Line 9 of the Seoul Metro, Seoul, South Korea

Line 1 of the Mumbai Metro, Mumbai, India

Hong Kong Tramways, a tram operator in Hong Kong, China since April 2009

Singapore Ducktours, a tourist bus operator in Singapore (also includes Downtown Bay).

Shenyang Tramways in Shenyang, China since August 2013

Open Loop New York - hop on hop off tour company in New York City commenced in May 2014

Yellow Buses, a bus operator in Bournemouth, England

Private trains already run on the Queensland Rail network. Aurizon and Pacific National when they transit through the CBD run on the
same tracks as Queensland Rail trains and the drivers see the same signals that QR drivers do.

It is interesting that you mention contract enforcement. As you are aware, there IS a contract between Queensland Rail and TransLink detailing service standards and so forth. But rather than weak enforcement, there is no enforcement - at all. No fines, no penalties and no contract termination. A scam. Even Connex couldn't get away with that.

Almost everyone on the Queensland Rail board still has their jobs (and their bonus they collected for last year too) and the executive leadership team. And its contract will simply be extended. Why? Because it's a public monopoly and protecting that monopoly aspect overrides everything else.

RATP Corporate Film





Run Queensland Rail like the Paris Metro? Yes please!!

[Stillwater]

Or maybe like the Casablanca Tramway??

[#Metro]

Or maybe like the Casablanca Tramway??

Casablanca Tramway

It's a bit like Gold Coast Light Rail (GC LRT is operated by a Keolis venture).

As of 2014, the Casablanca Tramway consists of one line of 31 route kilometres (19.5 miles), with 48 stations, from termini at Sidi Moumen in the east to Aïn Diab and the Facultés district in the west.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_Tramway

[Gazza]

What's up with the parrotting?

These are your words not mine.

Why can't QR get better and pursue a model of running local services and bidding for service operations overseas? Like MTR and RATP.

There is precedent for this.

Nobody died.

[#Metro]

These are your words not mine.

I know what I wrote. So what's up with the parrotting Gazza? Why do you have to go around and mimick other forum users?

Why can't QR get better and pursue a model of running local services and bidding for service operations overseas? Like MTR and RATP.

There is precedent for this.

Nobody died.

Are you genuinely suggesting this for QR?  What does HTG and Stillwater think about this?

[ozbob]

OK folks.  Stop the snide comments and just stick to your message thanks.

[#Metro]

Why can't QR get better and pursue a model of running local services and bidding for service operations overseas? Like MTR and RATP.

There is precedent for this.

Nobody died.

Honestly, it's like Gazza didn't even bother to read this thread or my responses, because if you scroll up a bit, literally I wrote:
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12563.msg184096#msg184096

And as I wrote elsewhere, I am perfectly fine with having regional QLD train services being publicly operated as the level of services are low and thus interest would likely be low.

The more cities that introduce CT, the more competitive the environment will become over time.

Remember, a proposed operator needs to compete against the current operator, and that would be Queensland Rail.

Queensland Rail does have strengths (ignoring recent events) and the advantage of incumbency.

And it could be a built up to a point where it too could look at operating trains in other cities (for a fee, of course).


Once this current problem is sorted out, Queensland Rail could be built up to be competitive.

Makes you wonder why it was even asked. 

[#Metro]

Update: RATP is on a privatisation pathway.

EU transport policies regarding competition mean that operations must be progressively opened up.

Against this background, it is therefore not surprising that RATP has diversified.

RATP to compete in Paris (Translated)
http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/entreprise/monopole-ratp-a-paris-se-brise-623266.html (in French)

For the first time in its history, the Régie des transports parisiens is giving way to a competitor in Paris intra-Muros. A first step towards opening up to competition on its historic territory imposed by Europe.

Thus, the Régie retains the exclusivity until December 31, 2024 on bus lines, until December 31, 2029 on tram lines, and on December 31, 2039 on the metro and RER lines. At these times, STIF will have to call for tenders.

On the other hand, for all the newly created lines, the opening to competition has been effective since December 2009. This is what allows another operator to manage the new Parisian link.

The Transport Syndicate of the Paris Region (STIF)
https://www.lta.gov.sg/ltaacademy/doc/13Sep079-Desclos_TransportSyndicateOfParisSTIF.pdf

On 3 December 2009, EU regulation n° 1370/2007 on
public transport services of passengers by rail and roads
came into force, and as a result, operators will have to
be chosen after a bidding procedure in the future.
As a consequence, from 3 December 2009, new services
will have to be operated either by STIF or an operator
chosen after a bidding procedure. Existing services will
be opened up to a bidding procedure gradually: the
bus network on 31 December 2024, tramways on 31
December 2029, undergrounds on 31 December 2039
.
So far no specification has been made on the duration
of future contracts and STIF has not yet decided on the
duration of contracts to be offered to the operators. For
the rest of the country, where the contracting system
is based on bidding procedures, the duration is eight
years.

The reform has also ownership consequences and
a transfer of assets between STIF and RATP has
been organised. Ownership of the rolling stock was
transferred from RATP to STIF and ownership of the
underground infrastructure assets transferred to RATP8.
The law allows STIF to take control of the bus depots or
the maintenance facilities if it wishes.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Private trains already run on the Queensland Rail network. Aurizon and Pacific National when they transit through the CBD run on the
same tracks as Queensland Rail trains and the drivers see the same signals that QR drivers do.

They don't run through the CBD.

And as I wrote elsewhere, I am perfectly fine with having regional QLD train services being publicly operated as the level of services are low and thus interest would likely be low.

But you still do not understand how everything works internally. You referred to NSW splitting its railways. Yes it did. So how many public organisations now look after their railways? Railcorp still exists. All the service groups for TrainLink and Sydney Trains are still operated by Sydney trains. And they have multiple depots. SydneyTrains depots service and maintain the TrainLink rollingstock. Now look at Queensland. We have 1 major facility depot that covers the entire fleet. There is a second depot but that is only for the NGR rollingstock and currently QR do not own any NGR rollingstock. That NGR facility will have no provisions for any EMU, ICE, ETT, DTT, SMU100, SMU220, SMU260, IMU100, IMU120 or IMU160 rollingstock and Mayne will have no provisions for NGR rollingstock. If you franchise the CityTrain aspect do you include the mtce facilities such as Metro in Melbourne. If you go down that route do you include the infrastructure and network operations too which is what Melbourne has done. Or do you go the UK route and have QR maintain the infrastructure. And so now you are paying a private company to service the TravelTrain rollingstock. If a Metro group takes over the operations of the CityTrain network we are now paying a private company access fees for the trains to use the network. Or is it Queensland Rail keeps the mtce facilities, rollingstock, infrastructure and franchises out the staff that drives the trains and works at the stations?? Or do you just want to go down the time wasting make it look better for Paul the typical docile when it comes to how things actually work cbd worker who sees it as the government is doing something by splitting QR CityTrain and QR Traveltrain into two different but separate groups while actually doing nothing at all?

You gotta make up your mind mate. As I originally mentioned you can not split CityTrain and TravelTrain without going down a huge sh%t creek especially considering how gun ho you are about privatising Queensland Rail. I only have to look to the left of the screen to see your stance and your rambling makes no sense. If you apply your original but NSW has done it here it would be different branding on the TravelTrain trains but everything else is still maintained by CityTrain.

[#Metro]

I will spell it out.  Unless Queensland Rail gets its collective act together, they are are finished.

The longer this mediocre service delivery continues, the greater the likelihood that come the next election there will be a new Government.  Layer on more service cuts an impossible situation for the present Government.

A reinvigorated LNP Government, whether majority or in a coalition will use the rail fail scenario as justification of privatising the heavy rail operations.  They might even do the same for the bus - they were going to do that as well.

Privatisation is not something to fear. Queensland Rail's freight division was sent off - Aurizon seems do be doing well. Good luck to them.
It is the same with BCC buses - all other bus operators are privately run and were happy to implement the 2013 bus review. Not Brisbane Transport though (due to political ownership).

Private operators are judged on their performance - the moment any private railway operator trips over with cancellation / delay / whatever, there is a very loud crowd who are quick to denounce the operator and paint it as "failure of private operator" and call for contracts to be ripped up and returned to government ownership. Never mind the details or nuances of the situation.

Publicly owned operators are NOT judged on their performance but the fact that they are "government owned". This overrides everything. The moment any public railway operator trips over with cancellation / delay / whatever, TransLink waives the fines, penalties and any prospect of contract discontinuance, and every apologist imaginable comes out of the woodwork about how another operator cannot / should not run things / won't work here / doesn't work anywhere and waving around a menu of privatisation scare stories while in the meantime service quality gets worse and worse and worse.

It's just an anti-business mindset. One wonders if we will reach peak denial where we have a publicly owned railway with no trains running on it and people still saying that absolutely nobody anywhere ever can come in and do the job well.

Plenty of alternatives to choose from:

* Keolis/SNCF (Runs Boston's Railway, Melbourne trams and GC LRT) (French Gov't Railways operating external to FR)
* TransDev (Runs Auckland and Wellington)
* SMRT (Runs Singapore Railways)
* Metro Trains (Runs Melbourne)
* Abellio (Netherlands Gov't Railways operating external to NL)
* RATP (Paris Metro Railways operating external to FR)

It is very scary to be genuinely responsible for the operation of a company's business knowing that if you make poor decisions, bankruptcy or loss could be just around the corner. And it is true that there are well run railways elsewhere in the world that are gov't owned - sadly that is not the case we are dealing with here.

[red dragin]

 Aurizon is doing well if you:

*Are not a staff member of theirs.
*Ignore their reliance on coal
*Ignore the contracts they are loosing.

Might need to choose a different example.