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Author Topic: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016  (Read 7525 times)

Online ozbob

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Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« on: September 15, 2016, 10:44:19 AM »
https://translink.com.au/service-updates/78956

Before we can open the new line we need to complete important signal tests and finish some final preparations. To do this, tracks will be closed between Zillmere and Caboolture stations from 9pm Friday 16 September until 2am Friday 23 September.

Because the work is being carried out over one weekend and four working days, you should allow an extra 90 minutes travel time on weekdays and an extra 60 minutes over the weekend.

Services will return to normal from the first service on Friday 23 September (weather and operational conditions permitting).

NB:

Do I need to touch my go card on or off (or buy a paper ticket) on the replacement buses?

You can board the rail replacement buses without touching on or off with your go card.

You can also board trains between Gympie North and Caboolture without touching on or off.

Inbound (to Brisbane City)

You won’t need to touch on (or buy a paper ticket) until you reach Boondall or Zillmere station, then touch off as normal at your end station or stop.

Outbound (to Caboolture/Sunshine Coast)

Touch your go card on (or buy a paper ticket) at your start station, and then touch off at Boondall or Zillmere and transfer to a rail replacement bus.

Travelling between the Sunshine Coast/Caboolture and Roma Street?


Trains will run as scheduled between Gympie North and Caboolture stations.

Inbound

Catch your train as normal to Elimbah station, then transfer to the express bus to Boondall. You can transfer to a CBD train at Boondall.

Outbound

Catch a Shorncliffe train to Boondall, then transfer to a replacement bus. You don’t have to transfer to a train at Caboolture – buses will stop at all stations from Caboolture to the Sunshine Coast.

What about connecting buses to closed train stations?

If you're travelling on an urban bus service and transferring to a rail replacement bus at any of the closed train stations, you should touch your go card on and off as normal.

An adjustment will be automatically applied to your go card for the cost of your fare to the connecting train station. You should allow up to 72 hours for this adjustment to occur.

Normal paper ticket processes will apply during the closure, but you will be allowed to travel the full length of your journey without being impacted by the two-hour paper ticket travel time restrictions.

Additional Shorncliffe line services

Extra Shorncliffe line trains will run during the closure, to cater for higher than normal passenger numbers.

Weekdays

    Peak - every 7.5 minutes
    Off-peak - every 15 minutes

Weekends

    Every 30 minutes
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 10:51:13 AM by ozbob »
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2016, 11:24:21 AM »
Anyone want a basically free trip (from Boondall) to the Sunny Coast?  Now is your chance!

 :-t :hc :lo :bu
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2016, 06:18:00 PM »
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2016, 06:27:41 PM »
Melbourne closed the Frankston line for 37 days, and the Sunbury line is closing for works 4-30 October (this takes out all the VLine Bendigo, Echuca, SwanHill trains as well).

All a matter of perspective.   :ttp:
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Offline red dragin

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2016, 06:32:33 PM »
Plasser track machine train parked in the platform (Kippa Ring bound) this evening. Being well lit and full CCTV it's a good spot to store it in readiness for the shutdown.

Offline tazzer9

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2016, 08:03:48 PM »
My only issue with this massive shutdown is that it is so unnecessary.  All the works being done could have been completed during normal weekend closures. They have shut it down for so long, and for so little work, they even have man and machine power available for a small preparatory closure on the ipswich line.

A shutdown of this scale should be all hands on deck, and make sure every single piece of maintenance along the closed section can be completed. 

They could even get the low security prisoners to do trackside garbage pickup duty during this period.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 09:22:43 PM »
Anyone gonna take pics of the bustitution operation in peak to demonstrate how many buses fill a train?

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2016, 03:08:15 AM »
Anyone gonna take pics of the bustitution operation in peak to demonstrate how many buses fill a train?

I might try, depends on my baby-sitting commitments   :P
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2016, 03:10:44 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

16th September 2016

Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure

Good Morning,

From 9pm this evening (16th September) the railway between Zillmere and Caboolture will be closed for an estimated 6 days. This is to allow the final track-work for the connections at Petrie to the Redcliffe Peninsula Line, associated signal and overhead works.

Full details at TransLink  >>  https://translink.com.au/service-updates/78956

Key points:

Travel north of Zillmere/Boondall is free, both on the replacement rail buses and trains north of Caboolture.

You can board the rail replacement buses without touching on or off with your go card.

You can also board trains between Gympie North and Caboolture without touching on or off.

Inbound (to Brisbane City)

You won’t need to touch on (or buy a paper ticket) until you reach Boondall or Zillmere station, then touch off as normal at your end station or stop.

Outbound (to Caboolture/Sunshine Coast)

Touch your go card on (or buy a paper ticket) at your start station, and then touch off at Boondall or Zillmere and transfer to a rail replacement bus.


This is excellent.  It is good to finally see some sensibility being applied with respect to ticketing on rail replacement buses.  Thank you.

For those passengers travelling between the Sunshine Coast  and Brisbane:

Trains will run as scheduled between Gympie North and Caboolture stations.

Inbound

Catch your train as normal to Elimbah station, then transfer to the express bus to Boondall. You can transfer to a CBD train at Boondall.

Outbound

Catch a Shorncliffe train to Boondall, then transfer to a replacement bus. You don’t have to transfer to a train at Caboolture – buses will stop at all stations from Caboolture to the Sunshine Coast.


This is an excellent arrangement for the long haul Sunshine Coast commuters. Thank you.

Melbourne has recently had a 37 day closure on a major suburban line (Frankston) and also plans to close the Sunbury line for 26 days in October.

I am sure Queenslanders can tough out a planned 6 day closure?  Just allow plenty of extra time for critical time appointments, at least 90 minutes.

Best wishes
Robert

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2016, 06:32:39 AM »
Quest --> Commuters will switch to cars — not free buses — during week-long closure of Caboolture rail line

 :fp:
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:42:40 AM by ozbob »
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Offline petey3801

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2016, 06:49:27 AM »
My only issue with this massive shutdown is that it is so unnecessary.  All the works being done could have been completed during normal weekend closures. They have shut it down for so long, and for so little work, they even have man and machine power available for a small preparatory closure on the ipswich line.

A shutdown of this scale should be all hands on deck, and make sure every single piece of maintenance along the closed section can be completed. 

They could even get the low security prisoners to do trackside garbage pickup duty during this period.

There is so much wrong with this post that I'm really not interested in typing it out on a phone.
Simply said, there is a massive amount of work that needs to be done in the Petrie/Lawnton area along with the comissioning of the new line that the closure is most certainly required, not just weekend closures. Also, not every type of trackworker needs to be there for the whole closure, hence their ability to work elsewhere as well.
My advice is that if you don't know about something, don't make comments with as much authority as you have above because it makes you look quite silly.
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2016, 06:54:00 AM »
Yes Petey.  This closure is necessary and was always going to happen.  It had been scheduled earlier in the year but due to the signalling issues was pushed back.  Selecting a school holiday period will minimise impacts.

Hysterical Brisbane media doesn't help.  In effect it is a 4 day weekday closure, reading some of the silly Brisbane media beat ups you would think it was the end of the world!   :fp:

There has been a lot of thought and planning put into this.  Good on them!
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Offline red dragin

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2016, 09:56:45 AM »
Plus there was two front end loaders sitting at Dakabin this morning. So looks like other work will be happening.

Going to have a look Sunday afternoon if the weather is suitable.

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2016, 10:57:02 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Seven days of rail pain before new Queensland rail link opens
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 04:32:34 AM »
http://translink.com.au/service-updates/96196#.V9w6HkwHykE.twitter

Boondall car park closure

Last updated: 5.29pm Tuesday 30 August 2016

From 4am Thursday 15 September until 2am Friday 23 September, the Boondall car park will be closed due to the Zillmere to Caboolture track closure.

To allow for rail replacement services at Boondall station, Standworth Road will be closed from Melaleuca Drive to Boondall station.

During this time there will be no commuter parking, set down or pick-up on the Brisbane Entertainment Centre side of the station.

If you normally park in this car park, you may need to consider parking in other locations.
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Offline red dragin

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2016, 01:06:55 PM »
220 buses being used during the shut down. Each bus doing two trips a day (I'd assume return trips). My chiro is also looks after someone from one of the bus providers.

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2016, 03:44:46 AM »
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Offline wbj

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2016, 07:13:17 AM »
Did a local shopping trip on Saturday and saw plenty of rail buses on the road.  Hopefully a good rehearsal for the real thing on Monday morning which could be painful with extra commuter cars on the roads.

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2016, 08:01:40 AM »
If nothing else this track closure will confirm for the masses the value of class A ROW be it rail or bus ...

 :lo :bu
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2016, 08:07:32 AM »
I have noted plenty of advertisements for this closure.  None of them mention the free travel north of Zillmere/Boondall though.

As if they are afraid to mention it .. lol

Might be a  ...

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Offline red dragin

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2016, 05:15:13 PM »
Going to have a look Sunday afternoon if the weather is suitable.

There was a large section of track replaced on the down near the random bus shelter (halfway between burpengary and morayfield). No other works visible from the road, might have been more where the road wasn't nearby.

Burpengary, narangba and Dakabin probably had 10 cars between them, this was around 4.30pm. Saw plenty of railbuses but couldn't tell loadings due to tinted windows.

Around Petrie, the up main to platform 4 is connected, final OH works where being done. Crossovers from current Up main (wrong running)  to down main, just before the up main to platform 4 crossovers are in place.

Near Lawnton over head works where underway and guys where working on the points motor near the north end of platform 1.

Looks to all be going well, I'd suspect that they wanted a day (and will have at least one) to run a mock peak hour or two through it all to make sure it works as expected.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2016, 06:13:08 PM by red dragin »

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2016, 05:58:32 PM »
^ thanks for the update!   8)
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2016, 02:41:50 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Northside rail commuters warned to allow for 90 more minutes of travel

Quote
Northside rail commuters will face delays until at least Friday as preparations swing into full gear for the long-awaited opening of the Redcliffe Peninsula line.

The new link, from Petrie to Kippa-Ring, was due to open on October 4.

In the meantime, services between Caboolture and Zillmere stations will be out of service until 2am on Friday, to allow for vital signals tests.

Replacement buses have been hired to run in both directions between those stations, running every 10 minutes in peak times and every 15 minutes off-peak.

"So we can complete the testing of the new signalling system on the Redcliffe Peninsula line, the overhead power on the adjacent tracks needs to be switched off," Translink said in a statement.

Translink said commuters should allow for the extra travel time for their week at work.

"Because the work is being carried out over one weekend and four working days, you should allow an extra 90 minutes travel time on weekdays," it said.

"...Services will return to normal from the first service on Friday 23 September."

Robert Dow, from public transport advocacy group Rail: Back on Track, said it was a small inconvenience to pay.

"Melbourne has recently had a 37-day closure on a major suburban line (Frankston) and also plans to close the Sunbury line for 26 days in October," he said.

"I am sure Queenslanders can tough out a planned six-day closure.

"Just allow plenty of extra time for critical time appointments."

The 12.6-kilometre, $1.026 billion rail link to Kippa-Ring, on the Redcliffe peninsula, had been a perpetual political promise for more than a century to curry favour with Redcliffe voters.

Moreton Bay mayor Allan Sutherland, himself a peninsula local, said the Moreton Bay Rail Line, which would be known as the Redcliffe Peninsula Line once operational, would be a huge boost to the region.

"The rail line was first talked about in the late 1800s and when MBRL opens in October we will see the dreams and plans of our region's pioneers finally realised," Mayor Sutherland said.

"For the first time ever more than 34 per cent of local residents will be connected to fast and reliable public transport via the new electric train line—what an incredible thing for our community to celebrate on 3 October.

"MBRL has been more than 100 years in the making and is set to continue the strong economic growth of our region, which already boasts some of Queensland's fastest-growing urban areas."
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2016, 02:44:51 AM »
Couriermail --> Train-line closure to derail northside commuters

Quote
SUNSHINE Coast and northside commuters are bracing for a week of chaos as the biggest planned rail closure in the southeast shuts down the line between Caboolture and Zillmere.

The closure, to complete work needed to bring the new Moreton Bay Rail Link online, started at 9pm on Friday but today is the first commuter ­period it will affect.

A fleet of more than 200 buses will try to make up for the missing trains, but passengers have been warned it could add 1½ hours to their journey.

From Landsborough Station on the Sunshine Coast, that would almost double the travel time to more than three hours one way to reach the city.

Passengers who do brave the shutdown zone can travel free of charge but will need a valid ticket from Zillmere.

“The closure is to allow work crews to link the Redcliffe Peninsula line to the ­existing network, and to integrate the electrical and signalling systems,” a Transport spokeswoman said.

“There is a comprehensive service plan in place to ensure passengers can still travel during this period, with more than 200 buses set to be deployed for the closure, and station signs, web notices, and both on-board and station announcements.

“There will also be staff on the ground during the closure to help direct customers.

“During peak periods, buses will be ‘turn up and go’, with express buses running directly to and from Boondall Station, as well as buses stopping at all stations for intermediate travel.

“During off-peak, buses will run at 15-minute frequencies, with buses also running express and stopping at all ­stations.

“Additional train services will also operate along the Shorncliffe line, with the frequency increased from 15 minutes to seven minutes and 30 seconds during the peak, and increased from 30 minutes to 15 minutes off-peak.”

For more information on the Moreton Bay Rail Link closure, check translink.com.au/service-updates/78956, the MyTransLink app, or call 13 12 30.
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2016, 03:39:42 AM »
Redcliffe Peninsula Railway shared path now open I understand as well.
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2016, 06:47:52 AM »
Wife is doing the rail bus thing today. She left a lot earlier as advised.

I'll add to this post as I get updates  :)

Communication was ok at Dakabin. Bus was about half full (does Narangba & Dakabin) when it arrived. Left the station at 6.34am, picked up about the same amount of people as would get on one train this time of morning during school holidays.

Plenty of staff at Boondall to help with touching on. Plenty on the platform helping with communication.

She's gotten on the train at 7.20am.

She's at work now, took about 25 minutes longer door to door than her usual trip.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 08:01:51 AM by red dragin »

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2016, 07:00:50 AM »
Thanks, good to get passenger perspective ...  :bu

 :-t
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 08:56:52 AM by ozbob »
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2016, 08:02:18 AM »
Final update done.

Offline PollyWouldLikeASeat

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2016, 08:29:12 AM »
Big thank you to the people who organised the rail replacement.

This morning went very smoothly.

Caught the 5.40 from Beerwah, buses were all lined up at Elimbah ready to go, traffic was starting to slow down on the Bruce carpark, got to Boondall they had translink officers with hand-held go-card readers to get everyone through the gates quicker, train turned up within 2 minutes of getting to the station.  Got to work about 15 minutes later than usual, trip took 35-40 minutes longer than usual.

Really impressed with how well it went this morning.

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2016, 08:56:14 AM »
^ Thanks for the feedback, glad it went well.  :-t
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #30 on: September 19, 2016, 10:29:32 AM »
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #31 on: September 19, 2016, 12:54:06 PM »
I may have missed this but are freight services also suspended for this period as well?
If so, PN and Aurizon may be up for some compensation.

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #32 on: September 19, 2016, 12:56:46 PM »
I may have missed this but are freight services also suspended for this period as well?
If so, PN and Aurizon may be up for some compensation.

DEL services still running - freight and passenger (diesel).  The power has been killed.
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Offline petey3801

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2016, 01:13:27 PM »
^ Diesel services only running during specific windows. By memory I think there are 4 freight windows theoughout the closure. This is due to the fact that the tracks will be cut in various places in order to have everything put in to the final alignment from Lawnton to north Petrie.
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2016, 01:15:06 PM »
Thus proving once again how vital freight is along the North Coast Line, no stoppages for them - food supplies too vital for North Qld.

Same occurred in April 2009 when the Caboolture to Beerburrum leg was commissioned, a loco was standing by to push freight trains through if needed because (under an RTI document) they feared the negative media impact of food shortages to the north of the state (whether from the commissioning or not).
Regards,
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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #35 on: September 19, 2016, 01:22:17 PM »
Couriermail --> Train-line closure to derail northside commuters

Quote
SUNSHINE Coast and northside commuters are bracing for a week of chaos as the biggest planned rail closure in the southeast shuts down the line between Caboolture and Zillmere.

The closure, to complete work needed to bring the new Moreton Bay Rail Link online, started at 9pm on Friday but today is the first commuter ­period it will affect.

A fleet of more than 200 buses will try to make up for the missing trains, but passengers have been warned it could add 1½ hours to their journey.

From Landsborough Station on the Sunshine Coast, that would almost double the travel time to more than three hours one way to reach the city.

Passengers who do brave the shutdown zone can travel free of charge but will need a valid ticket from Zillmere.

“The closure is to allow work crews to link the Redcliffe Peninsula line to the ­existing network, and to integrate the electrical and signalling systems,” a Transport spokeswoman said.

“There is a comprehensive service plan in place to ensure passengers can still travel during this period, with more than 200 buses set to be deployed for the closure, and station signs, web notices, and both on-board and station announcements.

“There will also be staff on the ground during the closure to help direct customers.

“During peak periods, buses will be ‘turn up and go’, with express buses running directly to and from Boondall Station, as well as buses stopping at all stations for intermediate travel.

“During off-peak, buses will run at 15-minute frequencies, with buses also running express and stopping at all ­stations.

“Additional train services will also operate along the Shorncliffe line, with the frequency increased from 15 minutes to seven minutes and 30 seconds during the peak, and increased from 30 minutes to 15 minutes off-peak.”

For more information on the Moreton Bay Rail Link closure, check translink.com.au/service-updates/78956, the MyTransLink app, or call 13 12 30.

Sunbus applied normal fares for passengers travelling from home to Landsborough station, as would be expected.

Received report of 40 minute (extra) trip from Landsborough to Bowen Hills. Commuter happy with the AM run in.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Online ozbob

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #36 on: September 19, 2016, 01:30:17 PM »
Here is a funny, not sure if Landsborough qualifies for this though FF (not a closed station):

https://translink.com.au/service-updates/78956

What about connecting buses to closed train stations?

Quote

If you're travelling on an urban bus service and transferring to a rail replacement bus at any of the closed train stations, you should touch your go card on and off as normal.

An adjustment will be automatically applied to your go card for the cost of your fare to the connecting train station. You should allow up to 72 hours for this adjustment to occur.

Normal paper ticket processes will apply during the closure, but you will be allowed to travel the full length of your journey without being impacted by the two-hour paper ticket travel time restrictions.

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Online ozbob

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #37 on: September 19, 2016, 01:34:02 PM »
Uh oh ...

==============

Twitter

TransLink ‏@TransLinkSEQ 10 minutes ago

Accident on Bruce Highway south, with some delays to Elimbah & Caboolture express rail replacement buses #TLalert
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Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #38 on: September 19, 2016, 02:10:03 PM »
Here is a funny, not sure if Landsborough qualifies for this though FF (not a closed station):

https://translink.com.au/service-updates/78956

What about connecting buses to closed train stations?

Quote

If you're travelling on an urban bus service and transferring to a rail replacement bus at any of the closed train stations, you should touch your go card on and off as normal.

An adjustment will be automatically applied to your go card for the cost of your fare to the connecting train station. You should allow up to 72 hours for this adjustment to occur.

Normal paper ticket processes will apply during the closure, but you will be allowed to travel the full length of your journey without being impacted by the two-hour paper ticket travel time restrictions.


Commuters can live in hope.. for 3 days at least.

Unrelated question I'd never thought that I would ask, how can we get a station closed?  :o
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Online ozbob

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Re: Zillmere to Caboolture 6 day track closure 16 - 23 Sep 2016
« Reply #39 on: September 19, 2016, 02:12:37 PM »
^  does this help?   :P

=====================

http://translink.com.au/service-updates/98361

Sunshine Coast trains suspended

Last updated: 1.39pm Monday 19 September 2016

The Sunshine Coast line trains are suspended in both directions betweenNambour and Caboolture stations due to an overhead wire issue at Glasshouse Mountains station. Customers can expect delays of up to 60 minutes

Technicians are en route.

Buses have started operating to transport passengers.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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