Queensland UTC +10
Terms of use Privacy About us Media Contact

Links

Author Topic: BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model  (Read 9837 times)

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track









« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 03:35:36 AM by ozbob »
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2016, 03:27:18 PM »
^

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2089
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2016, 03:30:57 PM »
Is this for real? Are we actually about to see bus network reform?

"A progressive review of the full Brisbane bus network, involving staged & systematic localised reviews to grow patronage"
"Encouraging patronage growth & multi-modal trips through sharing of future fare box revenue growth across all modes (rail, bus, & ferry)"

Will be interesting to see what happens from here. Very interesting.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2016, 03:32:31 PM »
Yes, it is real and genuine.   :bu :bu :-t
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2089
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2016, 03:39:03 PM »
Yes, it is real and genuine.   :bu :bu :-t

I think it is time for a QR :mu: ;D

Great to see Cr Schrinner and the BCC team come on board with network reform. Hopefully with BCC on side we'll see a better approach than the one seen in 2013 with the TransLink review. More consultation, less important routes cut and errors made (think 411, 470 etc.) and an integrated network.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7265
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2016, 03:43:30 PM »
This is encouraging, although I'm skeptical about the other operators reacting favourably to this arrangement.
Ride the G:

Offline bcasey

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 286
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2016, 03:48:08 PM »
1 ) what exactly does "unique transport alliance model" mean?

2 ) bus network review good, not sure whether localised reviews will provide the full benefits that a global review would provide, since by its very nature, public transport networks are connected, what you do to one local region can affect other regions as well. Really depends on how localised this is, and how quickly/slowly the progression of changing routes is. Best way I think is to come up with a global plan first, then implement it in stages, rather than plan and implement each local region one at a time.

3 ) good

4 ) good

5 ) a truely multimodal and integrated public transport is good, the mode shouldn't matter as long as people can get where they need to go.

6 ) good in theory, really depends on how much sway the unions have on dictating bus routes.

7 ) subsidising UBER/Taxis to provide "last mile" trips is ok in theory in certain circumstances. Refer to some recent blog posts on Human Transit for more in-depth analysis of this.

8 ) won't be practical until the next generation account-based ticketing is implemented, the current system is not sophisticated enough to do something like this.

9 ) better coordination between operators is good.

10 ) good to an extent, if coupled with a clear plan about feeder buses to help reduce the demand for park'n'ride.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 04:02:21 PM by bcasey »

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2016, 03:51:56 PM »
Brisbane City Council Raises the White Flag!  :bg:

The Question is - do you trust them?

I think it needs to go to a bus reform commission. BCC has a shocking track record and the review needs to be done independently.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2016, 03:54:34 PM »
Sent to all outlets:

6th September 2016

BCC propose bus review & a public transport alliance model

Greetings,

Some excellent developments today with Cr Adrian Schrinner proposing a unique transport alliance to progress a review of the full Brisbane Bus Network, involving a staged and systematic localised reviews to grow patronage.

Some key points of the proposal:

.  Stop the blame game & establish a unique transport alliance model, rather than a standard commercial contract for buses

.  Simplification & re-branding of all bus routes to make it easier for passengers (replacing the 100, 200, 300, 400 route numbering series)

.  Developing a clear strategy for the future use of High Capacity Buses (including articulated buses) on the Brisbane bus network

.  Encouraging patronage growth & multi-modal trips through sharing of future fare box revenue growth across all modes (rail, bus, & ferry)

.  Retaining a high quality, customer-focused bus operator workforce with above industry standard pay & conditions

.  Development of new demand-responsive, personalised public transport options to complement the existing @TransLinkSEQ network

RAIL Back On Track welcomes these proposals and supports strongly the proposal for the full Brisbane bus network review.

Thank you Cr Schrinner.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Reference:

1.  BCC propose bus review & a public transport alliance model
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12433.0




Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2016, 03:56:54 PM »
Brisbane City Council Raises the White Flag!  :bg:

The Question is - do you trust them?

I think it needs to go to a bus reform commission. BCC has a shocking track record and the review needs to be done independently.

It is proposed review is done by TransLink with BCC as an active and cooperative partner.  Bit different from 2013.

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline Gazza

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4767
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2016, 04:05:38 PM »
Bcasey, I thibk you could do it without account based ticketing if it floated over the top and wasnt live (Which is ok because frequent flyer points take a couple of days to show up)

Basically, have a program that trawls go card history, then dish out points accordingly.

Those points are turned into top up credit.

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2016, 04:09:00 PM »
Quote
It is proposed review is done by TransLink with BCC as an active and cooperative partner.  Bit different from 2013.

I think it should be done as a Bus Review Taskforce using ex BCC staff Neil Cagney and Peter Quick. TL can be part of that as they were part of the Fares Review.

This puts some distance between TransLink and the review itself, and independence protects it from any toxic politicking that may arise.

Taskforce is a proven success model, direct review (i.e. whatever Emerson did) a proven failure.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2016, 04:12:20 PM »

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2016, 04:16:00 PM »
Quote
It is proposed review is done by TransLink with BCC as an active and cooperative partner.  Bit different from 2013.

I think it should be done as a Bus Review Taskforce using ex BCC staff Neil Cagney and Peter Quick. TL can be part of that as they were part of the Fares Review.

This puts some distance between TransLink and the review itself, and independence protects it from any toxic politicking that may arise.

Taskforce is a proven success model, direct review (i.e. whatever Emerson did) a proven failure.

Yope, understand your viewpoint.  The previous bus review framework was actually developed in concert with consultants and I have no doubt that will again occur.  All parties need to take a constructive viewpoint and accept that some compromise is needed from all, including us.  I am happy to see how it develops from here.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2016, 04:17:03 PM »

Quote
.  Stop the blame game & establish a unique transport alliance model, rather than a standard commercial contract for buses

Need more detail on this. Is this like a franchise where BCC would keep some of the $$? I'm generally not into franchising given the Victorian examples and the fact that patronage is mostly down to gov't activities outside the control of the operator.

Quote
.  Simplification & re-branding of all bus routes to make it easier for passengers (replacing the 100, 200, 300, 400 route numbering series)

Not sure what they suggest to replace it with. The 3-digit numbering is a BCC idea and I think works generally well. It's not the guts of the problem Brisbane faces.

Quote
.  Developing a clear strategy for the future use of High Capacity Buses (including articulated buses) on the Brisbane bus network

Bring on the super buses into Queensland. BCC would be great to lobby for that.

Quote
.  Encouraging patronage growth & multi-modal trips through sharing of future fare box revenue growth across all modes (rail, bus, & ferry)

Er, what does that mean? I'm putting a big question mark on that one.

Quote
.  Retaining a high quality, customer-focused bus operator workforce with above industry standard pay & conditions

There is no reason for BCC to operate the buses, these should transfer to the State Government IMHO.

Quote
.  Development of new demand-responsive, personalised public transport options to complement the existing @TransLinkSEQ network

Uber and GoCatch are legal now, so just integrate with that. Don't reinvent the wheel.

Quote
RAIL Back On Track welcomes these proposals and supports strongly the proposal for the full Brisbane bus network review.

Proof will be in the pudding, as they say.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2089
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2016, 04:30:07 PM »
If Schrinner's words are representative of his future actions, there is no need to remove control of BT from BCC. The reason RBoT supported this position was because of the adversarial position BCC took on integrated transit and the silo mentality which existed. Once a process of reform is undertaken and people see the benefits of network reform, people will be more amenable to future network reform processes.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2016, 04:35:28 PM »
Quote
If Schrinner's words are representative of his future actions

It is a very big 'IF'. We have four years of evidence against BCC, and one day of evidence of co-operation.

I would be both skeptical and optimistic at the same time. Have to demonstrate their commitment through actions.

Talk is cheap.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline techblitz

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2282
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2016, 04:37:15 PM »
about time mr schrinner....

point 5 is very important.....if that can be sorted there is literally no more bickering or paranoia about who gets the bigger slice of passenger revenue.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2016, 04:50:11 PM »
Brisbanetimes --> Bus overhaul to scrap three-digit routes, reward Go Card users

Quote
Three-digit bus route numbers' days are numbered, after Brisbane City Council announced a 10-point plan it says will improve the city's public transport system.

Deputy mayor Adrian Schrinner, the council's public transport chairman, announced the plan for a "public transport alliance" in the council chamber on Tuesday.

One of the major changes would be a new route numbering system, which would do away with Brisbane's three-digit bus routes. Photo: Tony Moore

One of the major changes would be a new route numbering system, which would do away with Brisbane's three-digit bus routes.

"For many years, there's been a system of 100s, 200s, 300s and 400s series route numbers," Cr Schrinner said,

"Now, when you're catching the bus and if you do that for a little while, it starts to make a bit of sense, but the three-numbered route system is overly complicated and, indeed, we believe it should be simplified."

Cr Schrinner said there should be no more than two digits in the route numbering system and the use of colour-coding and branding could be implemented "so it is easier for people to understand how the network works".

"We also want to work with Translink to develop the use of high-capacity buses in the bus network," he said.

"We're talking about large, articulated buses; extra-long buses that can carry more passengers.

"This is all about growing the patronage of the bus network and providing more capacity to carry a larger number of people."

Cr Schrinner said he wrote to Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe to propose the new alliance between the state government and public transport providers, including the council.

"We are committed to working with Translink co-operatively to review the bus network," Cr Schrinner said.

"We will do that in a sector-by-sector approach."

Comment has been sought from Mr Hinchliffe.

Cr Schrinner said he hoped to introduce a loyalty program for bus commuters, which would reward their continued patronage.

"Businesses use it all the time and it works," he said.

"We should use it for public transport."

Cr Schrinner said the council had lost confidence in the state government during contract renegotiations, which were suspended last week, hence its proposal for a more collaborative approach.

"Today, I'm calling on the minister to agree to our public transport alliance for Brisbane and to commit to our 10-point strategy for fixing the public transport system," he said.

"By working together, we can deliver the best possible bus system for Brisbane residents with effective Metro and Cross River Rail systems to cater to the future public transport needs of Brisbane.

"We know that the state government alone has no plans to fix bus congestion issues, which is why it is critical we are working together."

Public transport advocate Robert Dow from Rail: Back on Track, a long-term critic of the council's bus system, said the plan was the type of reform he had been crying out for for years.

"This is good stuff," he said.

"Brisbane City Council has done too little for too long and they realise things need to happen."

Mr Dow said he met with Cr Schrinner prior to the announcement on Tuesday and was pleasantly surprised by the extent of the proposals.

Council opposition leader Peter Cumming said he wanted to know where the money was coming from, particularly for a proposed incentive that would see fare revenue shared with operators.

As it stood, Translink paid the council to operate bus services, but did not share the fare revenue.

"The state government isn't flash with funds, so I'd like to know where the money is coming from," Cr Cumming said.

The council's proposed public transport alliance involved:

    Establish a unique public transport alliance model, rather than a standard commercial contract model;
    A progressive review of the Brisbane bus network, involving staged and systematic localised reviews;
    Route simplification and re-branding of routes to improve network legibility for passengers;
    Developing a clear strategy for the use of High Capacity Buses on the bus network;
    Encouraging patronage growth and multi-modal trips through sharing of future fare box revenue growth across all modes (rail, bus, and ferry);
    A commitment to retaining a high quality Brisbane Transport workforce through the maintenance of above industry standard salary and employment conditions;
    Development of demand-responsive transport options to complement the existing TransLink network;
    Introduction of a loyalty program (frequent traveller program) for go card users;
    Initiating monthly operator meetings between TransLink, Brisbane Transport, Queensland Rail and private transport operators to deliver better network co-ordination; and
    Developing a clear Park and Ride strategy to encourage mode shift from private motor vehicles to public transport.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7265
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2016, 04:57:34 PM »
I have suggested to my contacts at GCCC that they should take notice of this.  They are discussing a few things with TransLink in coming weeks - possibly some opportunities.
Ride the G:

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7265
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2016, 05:18:17 PM »
You know, I might believe this is all for real when they start accepting delivery of buses painted green and white.
Ride the G:

Offline verbatim9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2016, 05:19:56 PM »
Yep I remember talking about this colour coding with High Frequency lines and aligning up with branding that can be used state-wide like Go Rapid, Rapid Route, Rapid Ride these words resonate better with the public Canberra is in the Process of High Frequency branding, called Rapid line? Named after colours Blue Rapid Red Rapid etc....

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2016, 05:23:57 PM »
Let's start with the basics. The routing. The bus stop spacing also needs to be reviewed for the entire city.

That means every single bus stop needs to be looked at. Buildings and shops have popped up since they were last reviewed (which was probably never).

I am skeptical with this colour coding thing. There are people who can't tell the difference between green/red, for example. It is not an insignificant thing -

Quote
Red-green colour blindness is by far the most common type – it is found in approximately 8% of males, and around 0.4% of females. This bias is because the genes that lead to red-green colour blindness are on the X chromosome with males having just one X chromosome, whilst females have two.

http://www.visioneyeinstitute.com.au/article/colour-blindness/

And a two digit series provides for exactly 100 bus routes. A minimal network for Brisbane would require at least 110 routes, and probably closer to 120 routes.

120 into 100 does not go.

 :is-
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline verbatim9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2016, 05:27:14 PM »
You know, I might believe this is all for real when they start accepting delivery of buses painted green and white.
600 on the Sunnycoast and the 700 and 777 can be rebranded to Rapid lines too.  Some routes in Cairns can be rebranded to Coloured Rapid ride as well.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7265
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2016, 05:30:59 PM »
Let's start with the basics. The routing. The bus stop spacing also needs to be reviewed for the entire city.

That means every single bus stop needs to be looked at. Buildings and shops have popped up since they were last reviewed (which was probably never).

I am skeptical with this colour coding thing. There are people who can't tell the difference between green/red, for example. It is not an insignificant thing -

Quote
Red-green colour blindness is by far the most common type – it is found in approximately 8% of males, and around 0.4% of females. This bias is because the genes that lead to red-green colour blindness are on the X chromosome with males having just one X chromosome, whilst females have two.

http://www.visioneyeinstitute.com.au/article/colour-blindness/

And a two digit series provides for exactly 100 bus routes. A minimal network for Brisbane would require at least 110 routes, and probably closer to 120 routes.

120 into 100 does not go.

 :is-

More detail will be needed as you said.

I half expect what we will end up with is that routes to the CBD or cross-town routes will only be 2-digits and that suburban feeder routes might be otherwise.  Similar approach to the way Perth's network was traditionally set up, and in part still is.

I think the colour coding is also intended to be a cuing thing, not an integral part of the route information (ie we won't end up with "Blue 21" and "Red 21").
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2016, 05:39:01 PM »
I wonder if it is worth restructuring Brisbane Transport as a council-controlled company. That would further reduce the politics as any changes would have to go through the company board. State Gov't could take a stake, for example.

Someone would also have to check, but it would also subject it to the Corporations Act as well. At the moment BT is just a brand and a division within BCC. Auckland transport (NZ) is a CCC.

Quote
Cr Schrinner said he hoped to introduce a loyalty program for bus commuters, which would reward their continued patronage.

No, this will just give BCC a handle over fares and ticketing. I know local gov't politicians are just itching to do this, as we have seen in the recent local council elections. Fare free Friday, cheaper tickets for less frequent routes etc. Will be a mess in the long run, and we just got out of that mess! The idea of separating BT from BCC is a good one.

Trust me, this "loyalty program" will quickly corrupt and turn into "loyalty for voting party X into office" program if it is implemented. Complete lack of understanding of the difference between public and private sector right there. You couldn't get away with that in a private corporation.

Decent, frequent service and land policy is what drives patronage, not cheap discounts. Should be strongly resisted IMHO.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 05:58:32 PM by LD Transit »
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline red dragin

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1277
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2016, 05:53:07 PM »
So essentially the kid (BCC) worked out Mum & Dad (State Gov)  where going to take its toys off them if they didn't start to play with them properly.

So they've run to Grandma (the media) and told them about how they are actually a good kid and want to play with them properly like it was all their idea in the first place.   

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2016, 06:02:44 PM »
Quote
So essentially the kid (BCC) worked out Mum & Dad (State Gov)  where going to take its toys off them if they didn't start to play with them properly.

So they've run to Grandma (the media) and told them about how they are actually a good kid and want to play with them properly like it was all their idea in the first place.   

Some skepticism is warranted. Doesn't change the fact that the rot has set in at city hall because they have been secure in their jobs for a decade or so now.

Last time the bus contracts were up for review and the threat of contestability / competitive contracting came along, BCC did a similar thing.
Suddenly all the talk was about efficiency and so forth.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Online ozbob

  • Administrator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80252
    • RAIL Back On Track
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2016, 06:07:09 PM »
Just swallow the cynical pill for a while.  There is still a lot of water to go under the bridge with this.   Cr Schrinner and the Minister have to meet up and sort out what is achievable etc.  All proposals may not get up, but the key thing, network reform is certainly going to happen I reckon. 
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
  Bob's Blog

Offline beauyboy

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 212
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2016, 06:11:57 PM »

Quote
.  Simplification & re-branding of all bus routes to make it easier for passengers (replacing the 100, 200, 300, 400 route numbering series)

I just want to say I FIND this confusing!

Why change from the existing
100 - South
200 - East
300 - North
400 - West

Now I know the average user doesn't understand it but if a regular east sider was told to use a 300s route to go to another friend in the east they would question it! From a PR point of view having 3 digits makes life easy. It means routes can be changed added or deleted without having to have out of wack bus numbers. It is all about grouping. Honestly if they want to make the numbering simpler keep the 100s, 200s, 300s and 400s system but go
105, 110, 115, 120, 125 etc etc etc


Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2016, 06:22:10 PM »
Yes, I definitely think that more discussion on this forum is needed for what is good and what is not so good in this.

Hopefully, we can have hands-on input into the routing for members in the draft stages.

Definitely happy that the network will be reformed, but absolutely do not give them anything to do with fares and ticketing! "Loyalty program" is definitely a no-no for me.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7265
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2016, 06:23:28 PM »
How useful is the information really though?

Does a 103 go anywhere near the 104?  Does a 375 go to the same neck of the woods as a 300?

The rest of the region seems to cope fine having only a single prefix numeral. 

Maybe this means BCC will get rid of it silly 700-series school route numbers.  Can you believe they actually objected to the Gold Coast being assigned this range because it affected their internal planning? 
Ride the G:

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2016, 06:33:26 PM »
Perhaps STB can enlighten you on that SurfRail.

I think the numbering is generally OK. Small refresh required, but that's it.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline verbatim9

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2016, 06:35:02 PM »

Quote
.  Simplification & re-branding of all bus routes to make it easier for passengers (replacing the 100, 200, 300, 400 route numbering series)

I just want to say I FIND this confusing!

Why change from the existing
100 - South
200 - East
300 - North
400 - West

Now I know the average user doesn't understand it but if a regular east sider was told to use a 300s route to go to another friend in the east they would question it! From a PR point of view having 3 digits makes life easy. It means routes can be changed added or deleted without having to have out of wack bus numbers. It is all about grouping. Honestly if they want to make the numbering simpler keep the 100s, 200s, 300s and 400s system but go
105, 110, 115, 120, 125 etc etc etc
Being a regular user I am happy with 3 digits. Colour coding and High Frequency rebranding to make it simpler to understand should be a priority than changing to 2 digit route numbers. It's funny Re : 2 digit route numbers as Adelaide Metro has said the complete opposite stating 2 digit numbers are harder to understand as eventually you need to add letters. They are moving from 2 digit to 3 digit route numbers and eliminating the letters

Offline James

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2089
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2016, 07:18:57 PM »
Let's start with the basics. The routing. The bus stop spacing also needs to be reviewed for the entire city.

That means every single bus stop needs to be looked at. Buildings and shops have popped up since they were last reviewed (which was probably never).

I am skeptical with this colour coding thing. There are people who can't tell the difference between green/red, for example. It is not an insignificant thing -

Quote
Red-green colour blindness is by far the most common type – it is found in approximately 8% of males, and around 0.4% of females. This bias is because the genes that lead to red-green colour blindness are on the X chromosome with males having just one X chromosome, whilst females have two.

http://www.visioneyeinstitute.com.au/article/colour-blindness/

And a two digit series provides for exactly 100 bus routes. A minimal network for Brisbane would require at least 110 routes, and probably closer to 120 routes.

120 into 100 does not go.

I'm sure by removal of the three-digit number system, I assume Schrinner means a re-vamp of the numbering system.

There are more important things to worry about than a re-vamp of route numbering. Personally, as long as it isn't a return to the bus numbering we had pre-1998, I'm really not fussed. The only reason I'd like to see them kept is because a route number has 'familiarity'. Seeing 'Your route has been changed' induces different psychological reactions than 'Your route has been replaced by...'. This was very evident in the SEQ Bus network review.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19602
  • DON'T SIGN! DON'T RENEW!!
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2016, 07:53:09 PM »
Quote
Seeing 'Your route has been changed' induces different psychological reactions than 'Your route has been replaced by...'. This was very evident in the SEQ Bus network review.

Agree here. Need to make as little disruption as necessary. People had HUGE reactions when they went to the TransLink website and saw that "route 411 has been replaced with #S209", people just went into panic mode.

There should be NO individual route mapping anywhere. Present it as one network on Google Maps or similar, old and new. Houston (USA) did this and it seemed to work well.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline Jonno

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1942
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2016, 07:56:12 PM »
Needs to start with Community Engagement similar to Toronto's Feeling Congested? Program.

http://torontoist.com/2013/01/are-you-feeling-congested-tell-the-city-of-toronto-how-to-improve-your-commute/

http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=05d9837c1b915410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD

Offline STB

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 577
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2016, 08:23:03 PM »

Quote
.  Simplification & re-branding of all bus routes to make it easier for passengers (replacing the 100, 200, 300, 400 route numbering series)

I just want to say I FIND this confusing!

Why change from the existing
100 - South
200 - East
300 - North
400 - West

Now I know the average user doesn't understand it but if a regular east sider was told to use a 300s route to go to another friend in the east they would question it! From a PR point of view having 3 digits makes life easy. It means routes can be changed added or deleted without having to have out of wack bus numbers. It is all about grouping. Honestly if they want to make the numbering simpler keep the 100s, 200s, 300s and 400s system but go
105, 110, 115, 120, 125 etc etc etc

I find this rather perplexing as well.

The 3 digit numbering system was introduced to provide a more logical route numbering system (I worked with the guy who created that system - we also worked on the Eastern Region (Redlands) and the Bribie Island Network back in the day).  Basically it's a clockface regional numbering system, 1xx is southside, 2xx is east, 3xx is north, 4xx is west, etc with the second number x1x; x2x; etc which corridor within that region it is.  A bit of education on that would help with educating the public on that.  Two digit numbers worries me as you can only go so far with that before you run out of numbers.  And what do you do about the regional areas?

Offline aldonius

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2016, 08:30:18 PM »
And what do you do about the regional areas?

Quote from: BCC, apocryphally
What regional areas?

Offline SurfRail

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7265
BCC propose a progressive bus review & a public transport alliance model
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2016, 09:26:10 PM »
This isn't worth fixating on, honestly.  There is no one perfect system.

There are some very salient points raised in the second comment on this article. 

http://humantransit.org/2010/05/line-numbering-geek-fetish-or-crucial-messaging.html

Ride the G:

 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 


“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan