Regional Fast Rail discussion

[aldonius]

Caboolture IS the northern edge of Brisbane! 

I'm barely even joking. Anyone who uses the BCC boundaries as anything other than, well, the BCC boundaries is silly.

[verbatim9]

Sunshine Coast community leaders are backing a bold plan for a multi-billion dollar fast rail network for south-east Queensland.
@9NewsSunCoast

@SophieRyan_9
#9News

https://twitter.com/9NewsSunCoast/status/1301085689598025728

[Gazza]

Caboolture IS the northern edge of Brisbane! 

I'm barely even joking. Anyone who uses the BCC boundaries as anything other than, well, the BCC boundaries is silly.

Yeah I've never understood this, it would be like saying St Kilda isn't in Melbourne because it's in the City of Port Phillip

[pangwen]

I see where you're coming from in terms of not just classifying places by which Council they're in.

However, Caboolture is ~44km from Brisbane CBD as the crow flies. A similar distance comparison for Melbourne would be saying that Avalon (where the other airport is.. approx 49km from Melbourne CBD) isn't part of Melbourne. Which people actually do (perhaps jokingly) say.

[Gazza]

I think it really depends on where the "Blob" starts and finishes.

Like in Sydney, Penrith is 50km out and defo part of Sydney.

Eg Melbourne finishes at Weribee, and its just open land until Lara. TBH i think Avalon airport belongs to Geelong lol.
To the north, Melbourne finishes at Craigeburn.

In Brisbane, i consider it the area between Caboolture, Ipswich and Beenleigh

[red dragin]

In Brisbane, i consider it the area between Caboolture, Ipswich and Beenleigh

I agree.

If someone familiar with Australia, but not the individual suburbs asks "where do you live?", I'd respond the 'northern side of Brisbane', not 'near Caboolture'

[ozbob]

Where is Goodna?  Halfway between Brisbane and Ipswich   

[ozbob]

Greater Brisbane > https://profile.id.com.au/australia/about?WebID=270

Greater Melbourne > https://profile.id.com.au/australia/about?WebID=260

[achiruel]

I think the issue with Brisbane is that the City of Brisbane encompasses such a huge part of the metro area that people start to believe that anywhere outside that isn't really "Brisbane".

I mean who in their right mind would claim that only suburbs within the City of Sydney should be described as "Sydney"? It's basically the CBD and a handful of inner southern suburbs.

Personally when I talk about Brisbane, I mean the metro area. If I want to discuss the council area, I specify City of Brisbane, or maybe BCC if I'm being lazy (although technically that is the name of the administration of the City of Brisbane, not the city itself).

Realistically, "Brisbane" encompasses the City of Brisbane and much of the urban areas of the Moreton Bay Region, Redland City, Logan City and City of Ipswich.

I don't really agree with the definition in the link by Ozbob above (even if it is the "official" definition by the ABS or something) as I think it's ridiculous to describe towns like Beaudesert and Esk as part of the Brisbane metro area.

Northern boundary with Caboolture, east I'd include Victoria Point & Redland Bay but probably not SMBI. South to the boundary with the Gold Coast, although it's debatable whether Yatala and Stapylton are more like far southern suburbs of Brisbane or far northern suburbs of the Gold Coast, and west to Walloon. Feel free to disagree. 

[achiruel]

I see where you're coming from in terms of not just classifying places by which Council they're in.

However, Caboolture is ~44km from Brisbane CBD as the crow flies. A similar distance comparison for Melbourne would be saying that Avalon (where the other airport is.. approx 49km from Melbourne CBD) isn't part of Melbourne. Which people actually do (perhaps jokingly) say.

Avalon is pretty clearly not in Melbourne, if anything it should be called Geelong airport! However, that's not to do with distance, but simply because it's outside the urban footprint. However on the other side of Melbourne, Cranbourne is a similar distance from the CBD as Avalon yet I think would be regarded by most as being inside the urban footprint.

[SurfRail]

I don't really agree with the definition in the link by Ozbob above (even if it is the "official" definition by the ABS or something) as I think it's ridiculous to describe towns like Beaudesert and Esk as part of the Brisbane metro area.

It comes down to (among other things) economic self-sufficiency.

The ABS regards Beaudesert and a huge chunk of the Scenic Rim as being economically tied to Brisbane based on a host of factors, so it gets included as part of the Brisbane GCCSA.  Journeys to work is a big one - if a huge chunk of your population is leaving your boundaries to work each day that is a good indicator you are a subsidiary of the employment draw-card rather than just being adjacent to it.

The Gold Coast is definitely not part of Brisbane because the number of people who leave the city each day for work is actually minuscule taken against the whole, and against the people who come south to the Gold Coast for work.  That is even though a good chunk of the Gold Coast is physically closer to George St than Beaudesert.  Similar for the Sunshine Coast and Toowoomba.  Moreton Bay I understand is especially high in terms of people who live but don't work there.

[aldonius]

The former Pine Rivers area in particular has lots of BCC commutes. CBD, Airport area, Chermside are the big three.

[AnonymouslyBad]

I think the issue with Brisbane is that the City of Brisbane encompasses such a huge part of the metro area that people start to believe that anywhere outside that isn't really "Brisbane".

Yep, definitely. And also the size of local council areas in general, which makes them so readily identifiable.
It would sound ridiculous to hear a news report say someone's from "Lane Cove" (Sydney) or "Stonnington" (Melbourne) and half the time you wouldn't even know where those places were. But "Logan", "Ipswich", they're such broad descriptors that it seems to be ok to use them like a city name - even if they're nothing but endless suburbia
Everyone seems to draw the line at Moreton Bay though... just Redcliffe gets a special city-grade mention. Congratulations to Redcliffe.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Mayors propose ambitious Fast Rail legacy project for south-east

South-east Queensland's mayors are hoping to use the proposed Fast Rail network as a legacy project that will boost the state's post-COVID recovery and link regional areas to Brisbane.

The first business case of a Fast Rail line between Maroochydore and Brisbane is now being evaluated by Queensland's Transport Department, and a second business case – for a line between Brisbane and the Gold Coast – will be completed by late 2022.

But a third proposal for Fast Rail between a regional centre and Brisbane – this time from Toowoomba – is also under way.

The SEQ Council of Mayors hope the Fast Rail proposals can build on opportunities presented by Brisbane's underground Cross River Rail.

The Queensland government is fully funding the $5.4 billion Cross River Rail project, which will improve links between the Sunshine and Gold coasts by giving trains an urgently needed second route across the Brisbane River.

Cross River Rail will also provide two new stations – Boggo Road and Roma Street – where a future Fast Rail network could meet both the existing suburban rail network and Brisbane City Council's Metro bus lines.

This would enable passengers at the new stations to switch "modes" from Fast Rail – if travelling from Toowoomba, the Gold or Sunshine coasts – to suburban rail lines, connected by Cross River Rail, or to Brisbane's Metro.

Toowoomba mayor Paul Antonio supported the idea on Friday, pointing out that the region was growing quickly and that city's Wellcamp Airport made Toowoomba a viable freight hub.

"From Ipswich through the Lockyer Valley to Toowoomba, we will see significant population growth in the western corridor in the coming decades," Cr Antonio said.

"The Commonwealth has committed $15 million to investigate passenger rail between Brisbane and Toowoomba.

"Fast Rail should be a genuine consideration to ensure we are planning for the region's growth.

"When we look back at COVID-19 and the billions of dollars spent, what will our legacy be?

"We hope it will be a Fast Rail network that will serve the south-east for decades to come."

South-east Queensland has long been recognised as a population – and congestion – growth zone as people shun public transport in favour of cars.

This Friday, the SEQ Council of Mayors will again raise a Fast Rail network in the south-east when it seeks a genuine exploration of the concept, to be delivered in partnership with the Commonwealth and industry.

Funding for the long-term project between all three levels of government is expected to be revisited in 2021.

South-east Queensland's mayors are talking about a "broader picture" – a 160km/h Fast Train transport spine – similar to what has happened on the Gold Coast with the G-Link light rail.

Sunshine Coast mayor Mark Jamieson, a director of the SEQ Council of Mayors and president of the Local Government Association of Queensland, said his council had radically upgraded the Maroochydore Airport, pitching its future in freight and tourism.

Now he believes Fast Rail is the "future connector".

"Fast Rail has the potential to create a fast and efficient spine for the south-east's public transport network, allowing residents and tourists to travel more efficiently throughout the region," Cr Jamieson said.

"Commuters are not the only users of our transport system. Fast and user-friendly public transport across the region would increase our offering to domestic and international tourists, encouraging them to stay longer and spend more in south-east Queensland.

"Imagine being able to step onto the Sunshine Coast Mass Transit system in Maroochydore, connect to Fast Rail at Kawana, and step off in Toowoomba – all through an integrated, fast and efficient public transport network.

"It would be a game-changer for the Sunshine Coast and south-east Queensland."

Redland City mayor Karen Williams, treasurer of the SEQ Council of Mayors, says Fast Rail is a 20-year project.

"It has the potential to create tens of thousands of jobs across a 20-year delivery horizon," she said.

"When you compare the cost of Fast Rail against its social, environmental and economic benefits, the proposition is compelling and should prompt serious consideration for the state government.

"The conversation can no longer be about shovel-ready projects, we need to start investigating shovel-worthy projects that have the power to kickstart the Queensland economy.

"Fast Rail is one of those projects."

Fast Rail - what are they talking about?

The New Generation Rollingstock - the new trains - have an average running speed of approximately 60km/h and a top speed of 140km/h.
At these speeds, Citytrain is too slow to offer commuters in the outer rings of south-east Queensland a reason to leave their cars behind and use public transport.

The south-east Queensland Fast Rail network would operate at speeds of 160km/h or more and deliver significant travel time savings compared to the Citytrain network.

This is not high-speed rail or the bullet trains that operate in excess of 250km/h.

The broad plan is to be able to link anywhere in south-east Queensland within 45 minutes.

The cost of adding a Fast Train network to the Citytrain network would be in the tens of billions, but this could be offset by benefits to the Olympics and future tourism.

Source: South-east Queensland Council of Mayors Fast Train Network bid

[verbatim9]

We will probably see the level crossing removal at Sherwood Road on the Ipswich line with a new Sherwood Station  A fourth track with catenary from Corinda to Darra, as well as amplification from Darra to Redbank, to support through Fast Rail from Toowoomba.

[verbatim9]

SE Queensland is in a good position as well when it comes to extra rail stock for Fast Trains because the 50 new NGRS are not confirmed. The top up order for new trains could be altered to include Fast Train specifications, 9 car sets, as well as modern passenger comforts with USB charging, spaces for bikes etc... and better WIFI data allowances. Its likely to be an Alstom train.    Helidon/Gatton, Beerwah and OOL would be the likely contenders to get Fast Rail first by 2026/7. Then stage two could be completed to the other centres of Maroochydore and Wellcamp by 2028/29.

The new trains even though Fast Trains could easily be ustiliesd across the whole of the SEQ network when needed, to acheive best valie out of the rolling stock.

In regards to a Station at Coolangatta, hopefully a cut and cover station will be the preferred option, similar to Perth's Airport, but not as grand, that accommodates 9 car sets.

[timh]

I was looking at the concept map again and had a thought...

Can someone explain to me why Withcott is on there as a major destination? It's currently not on the existing rail alignment, does not see like a particularly big town worthy of getting a major stop like this, and geographically wouldn't it be too steep to go straight up the range from Withcott to Toowoomba by rail anyway?? (obviously it can do it if it was super windy, but that defeats the purpose of being "Fast rail"?

I assumed that any new rail passenger rail project would either use the Inland rail tracks (which I think is incredibly unlikely considering how they've designed them, despite what some others here may think), or follow an alignment similar to the Toowoomba bypass, where the earthworks have made the gradients a little easier.

If someone knows more about why Withcott was included please fill me in coz right now I'm a bit baffled.

[ozbob]

Withcott is a possible staging point.  The line could be built to there first.  Agree though it is a little confusing.

(I have checked this with SEQCoM).

[Gazza]

Everything on the Inland Rail website seems to suggest that it was a requirement of the agreement with the Qld Goverment that the design must not preclude passenger rail.

My personal view is that it should go to Gowrie Junction, via the proposed tunnel, and if demand increases, build a 2nd parallel tunnel and freight and Pax share both (no different to the base tunnels in Switzerland)


Gowrie Junction would be a big park and ride, and perhaps a future stage would rebuild the line into the Toowoomba CBD.

So the final line would stop at

Toowoomba
Gowrie Junction
Helidon
Gatton
Laidley
Rosewood
Ipswich
Darra
Indooroopilly
Milton
Roma St

Though if Ipswich had a full time express pattern on the suburbans, id run express from Darra to Roma St.

[James]

I hope a fast rail product / business case will focus on the biggest bang-for-buck items, being:
- The Gold Coast line between CRR and Beenleigh
- NWTC
- Beerwah to Maroochydore railway line
Rather than spending a lot of time investigating services out to Toowoomba or looking at putting standard gauge tracks in just to get the top speed up from 160km/h to 200km/h.

There are two issues with very fast trains:
1. Very fast trains spend a lot of time accelerating and decelerating, meaning you need decent stop spacing otherwise the trains will never hit stop speed - kind of like what the Gold Coast line has now (a shame they're ruining it with pork barrel stations, but anyway).
2. On narrow gauge, speeds above 160km/h are difficult to obtain due to reduced stability. The tilt trains are actually quite advanced technology, the problem is most of the North Coast Line north of Beerburrum is still very much third world, so the tilt train never really gets the chance to show what it is capable of. 160km/h is very possible, maybe 180km/h if you tried. 250km/h will require standard gauge which would be a comprehensive refit.

A back-of-envelope calculation suggests at 160km/h top speed, if you did Brisbane - Garden City - Beenleigh - Helensvale - Robina - Coolangatta, assuming 90km of track and an extra 3 minutes per stop, 45 minutes is very doable.

In terms of size & volume of traffic, Brisbane - GC is definitely the priority. Compare the traffic moving between the two to Brisbane - SC (notably lower) and Brisbane - Toowoomba (insignificant compared to the former). The main thought now should be ensuring Inland Rail is appropriately future proofed for a higher-speed service.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Fast rail an election winner, survey finds

Southeast Queensland voters back a fast rail scheme that would slash travel times between Brisbane, the Gold and Sunshine coasts and Toowoomba, as well as creating thousands of jobs.

Southeast Queensland voters back a fast rail scheme that would slash travel times between Brisbane, the Gold and Sunshine coasts and Toowoomba as well as creating thousands of jobs over the next 20 years, polling results given exclusively to The Courier-Mail show.

According to the poll commissioned by the Southeast Queensland Council of Mayors, almost 90 per cent of voters back fast rail and more than half of the southeast voters would be more likely to back a state election candidate if they supported fast rail.

The mayors will use the results from the ReachTEL poll of 2137 respondents across the southeast to push the State Government and Opposition to commit to a formal partnership with all levels of government and industry to undertake a "genuine exploration of fast rail in southeast Queensland".

The mayors say the money is there to explore fast rail – with speeds up to 160km/h, compared with the Citytrain average of 60km/h – with an existing Commonwealth commitment of $8 million to investigate Fast Rail between Brisbane and the Gold Coast, another $15 million from the Commonwealth to explore passenger rail to Toowoomba, and the completed North Coast Connect business case.

Council of Mayors (SEQ) chair Brisbane Lord Mayor Adrian Schrinner said the Commonwealth, councils, the community, and industry all want a real investigation into fast rail in southeast Queensland.

"We're asking the State and Opposition to commit to partnering with the Federal Government, Council of Mayors (SEQ) and industry to bring together the expertise needed to give this investigation our best shot," Cr Schrinner said.

Gold Coast Mayor Tom Tate said the design and delivery of a southeast Queensland fast rail network would deliver an economic windfall for the region at a time when it needed it the most.

"Fast rail would create a long and stable pipeline of jobs for southeast Queensland. We're talking about thousands of jobs each year across a 20-year delivery time frame," Cr Tate said.

"The economic, social and environmental benefits of fast rail are enormous. Slashing the commute time from the Gold Coast Airport to Brisbane to just 45 minutes would transform the way commuters and tourists move around our region."

The Courier-Mail revealed the details of the mayor's Fast Rail scheme as part of the Kickstart series last week, which aims to connect Brisbane to the Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast and Toowoomba in as little as 45 minutes would create more than 8000 jobs at its peak as well pouring billions of dollars into the Queensland economy.

It includes two pricing options – $16.9 billion for a "60-minute region" or $28.8 billion for the 45-minute option, and argues southeast congestion will be costing Queensland $6 billion a year by 2031 and can only be unclogged with what would be the state's biggest infrastructure project to date.

[ozbob]

SEQ Council of Mayors

ConnectedSEQ

ConnectedSEQ is the Council of Mayors' (SEQ) proposition for the introduction of Fast Rail in South East Queensland. As the centrepiece of the SEQ Mayors' campaign in the lead up to the 2020 Queensland State Election, it comes with an ask of the State and Opposition to commit to a formal partnership with all levels of government and industry to undertake a genuine exploration of Fast Rail in South East Queensland.

--> https://seqmayors.qld.gov.au/news/introduction-to-connectedseq-20200909

Fast Rail in South East Queensland

-->> https://seqmayors.qld.gov.au/news/fast-rail-in-south-east-queensland-20200909

[timh]

Ooooh. Lots of interesting info in here. Goes into some more detail of how they expect these "fast rail" systems to work. Some takeaways:

• The "45 Minute Region" option requires standard gauge, and significant tunneling. t
• The "60 Minute Region" option is a cheaper alternative that uses narrow gauge with tilting rollingstock
• There's a proposal for a line from Beenleigh to Yarrabilba:
  

  Beenleigh to Yarrabilba passenger service as a future option to potentially connect the main southern corridor with the growing area of Yarrabilba. While this opportunity is in early stages of consideration, it provides an example of how local transport solutions can connect into the regional network.

• There's also a proposal to extend Rosewood CityTrain services to Lockyer Valley:
  

  Extension of the existing rail services from Rosewood to locations further west, such as Gatton, Lockyer Valley and Toowoomba.

You can see some of these details on this neat little concept transit map:



Source: https://seqmayors.qld.gov.au/news/creating-a-one-connected-network-20200909

EDIT: I wonder if the Yarrabilba line would use any of the old alignment from Bethania...? The old Canungra line branches off at Logan Village and heads basically straight towards Yarrabilba.

[Gazza]

I wonder if the Yarrabilba line would use any of the old alignment from Bethania...?

Rapid Rail on an old allignment 

[timh]

I wonder if the Yarrabilba line would use any of the old alignment from Bethania...?

Rapid Rail on an old allignment 

I assumed that it would use the straighter bits to the south, plus it seems weird to call it a "Beenleigh" to Yarrabilba line if it starts at Bethania (where the windiest bits are).

Besides I don't think that particular suburban line would be "rapid", I think the proposal for Yarrabilba would be a regular suburban service.

[Gazza]

But Yarrabilba is like 50km from the CBD by rail. It would need to achieve speeds similar to the newer parts of the GC line to attract pax.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1304227278952357889

[kram0]

20 years to complete.......

They should be aiming to have this complete by 2032.

[ozbob]

Queensland Times --> FAST RAIL: From Ipswich to Brisbane CBD in 21 mins


Ipswich mayor Teresa Harding speaks at the release of ConnectedSEQ, the SEQ Council of Mayors' strategy for fast rail in south east Queensland.

A FAST rail network for south east Queensland would take commuters from the centre of Ipswich into the Brisbane CBD in just 21 minutes and create thousands of jobs if it comes to fruition.

The SEQ Council of Mayors is urging the State Government and Opposition to get on board and commit to partnering with all levels of government and industry to "undertake a genuine exploration" of fast rail.

The network would include three lines, to Toowoomba, the Gold Coast and the Sunshine Coast, and the coalition of mayors argues it is a crucial project to bust congestion, boost tourism and stimulate the economy in the wake of COVID-19.

It is estimated it would cost $16.9 billion for a '60-minute region' or $28.8 billion for the '45-minute region' with trains travelling at speeds of up to 160km/h.

Travel times into Roma Street station would be 21 minutes from Ipswich, 38 from Gatton, 46 from Withcott and 52 from Toowoomba for the fastest option.

Infrastructure Australia predicts congestion will cost the south east Queensland economy $6 billion a year by 2031.

The SEQ mayors talked up the huge economic benefits the transport project would provide.

They predict the faster 45-minute fast rail network would create 4,464 jobs a year with a peak of 87000 job a year at the height of construction over a 20 year period.

It would inject $12.6 billion into the economy directly from the creation of these jobs, according to the mayors.

A detailed business case is required to fully capture the full economic impact of the project.

The Federal Government has committed $8 million to investigate fast rail between Brisbane and the Gold Coast and another $15 million to explore passenger rail between Brisbane and Toowoomba.

A new ReachTEL poll found 90 per cent of the more than 2000 people quizzed backed such a project for the region.

Ipswich mayor Teresa Harding said a fast rail network would be a game changer for Ipswich, which is the fastest growing region in Queensland.

"This could be one of these projects which really kickstarts our economic recovery and improves our lifestyle," she said.

"We have a growing population and the traffic congestion does really continue to be a major challenge for our region and the people of Ipswich.

"This rail network can create tens of thousands of jobs across a 20-year delivery while addressing the challenges of our growing region.

A FAST rail network for south east Queensland would take commuters from the centre of Ipswich into the Brisbane CBD in just 21 minutes and create thousands of jobs if it comes to fruition.

The SEQ Council of Mayors is urging the State Government and Opposition to get on board and commit to partnering with all levels of government and industry to "undertake a genuine exploration" of fast rail.

The network would include three lines, to Toowoomba, the Gold Coast and the Sunshine Coast, and the coalition of mayors argues it is a crucial project to bust congestion, boost tourism and stimulate the economy in the wake of COVID-19.

It is estimated it would cost $16.9 billion for a '60-minute region' or $28.8 billion for the '45-minute region' with trains travelling at speeds of up to 160km/h.

Travel times into Roma Street station would be 21 minutes from Ipswich, 38 from Gatton, 46 from Withcott and 52 from Toowoomba for the fastest option.

Infrastructure Australia predicts congestion will cost the south east Queensland economy $6 billion a year by 2031.

The SEQ mayors talked up the huge economic benefits the transport project would provide.

They predict the faster 45-minute fast rail network would create 4,464 jobs a year with a peak of 87000 job a year at the height of construction over a 20 year period.

It would inject $12.6 billion into the economy directly from the creation of these jobs, according to the mayors.

A detailed business case is required to fully capture the full economic impact of the project.

The Federal Government has committed $8 million to investigate fast rail between Brisbane and the Gold Coast and another $15 million to explore passenger rail between Brisbane and Toowoomba.

A new ReachTEL poll found 90 per cent of the more than 2000 people quizzed backed such a project for the region.

Ipswich mayor Teresa Harding said a fast rail network would be a game changer for Ipswich, which is the fastest growing region in Queensland.

"This could be one of these projects which really kickstarts our economic recovery and improves our lifestyle," she said.

"We have a growing population and the traffic congestion does really continue to be a major challenge for our region and the people of Ipswich.

"This rail network can create tens of thousands of jobs across a 20-year delivery while addressing the challenges of our growing region.

"It's a massive thing for all of south east Queensland. We can see now the issues not having proper rail or roads.

"Imagine if it only takes 24 minutes, or 21 minutes (for the 60-minute option) to go from Ipswich station to Roma Street. How fantastic would that be?"

RAIL Back On Track spokesman Robert Dow said the project was "the sort of vision" that Queensland needed.

"We think the best option will be to use the existing rail corridor out to Calvert, which is west of Rosewood, and then use that Inland Rail corridor to get up to Toowoomba," he said.

"I understand that the corridor is wide enough for a separate rail line for fast rail.

"We've got an existing quadruple railway track basically out to Darra.

"What it would need though is a triple line between Darra west (junction) and Calvert.

"They'd probably need to put in a third railway line. There is probably room in the corridor to do that.

"There have been plans in the past to put a triple line between Darra west and Redbank.

"What they might have to do is look at extending that additional railway line out to Calvert so they can have plenty of track capacity to run these trains express from Brisbane to Ipswich."

The passionate Goodna public transport advocate said it was certainly achievable.

"What's obviously going to be the big issue is going to be the cost," he said.

"I think if they try to put a new corridor for the fast rail between Brisbane and Calvert, it would be prohibitively expensive.

"When you look at the Ipswich corridor, it's got the capacity it just needs that additional line to make it a triple from Darra west out to Calvert.

"Once that's done, everything is quite achievable. It's a matter of funding and competing with the priorities which will be the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast.

"Queensland Rail holds the Australian speed record with one of the Electric Tilt Trains at over 200km/h.

"They can certainly achieve the speed that we're talking about on the 3.6 inch gauge."


RAIL Back On Track spokesman Robert Dow

[Gazza]

I reckon a triple from Darra to Ipswich would do it, which is signficiant (24km).
West of Ipswich traffic is less and a double track would handle it, and to be honest, if Rosewood had a stop on the fast line, basically everyone would abandon the Rosewood shuttles.

[ozbob]

I hear you but Rosewood locals will still be running.  There is also Wulkuraka to consider. 
In 20 years there will be a lot more development out west of Ipswich.  It is growing now.

Also possible rail from Ripley will be joining the line west of Ipswich. 

The fast rail will not be stopping at Rosewood.  My guess it would be Roma St - Ipswich - Laidley - Gatton - Helidon - Toowoomba.

If it is going to done, needs be done right with the ability to run the trains fast.  For that track capacity will be needed.

[Cazza]

"They can certainly achieve the speed that we're talking about on the 3.6 inch gauge."

Now that would be impressive!

All Aboard

[ozbob]

It's obviously an editorial typo ..

Fast rail is achievable on 3' 6" (1067 mm).  To set up a standard gauge 4' 8.5" (1435 mm) system would add considerably more costs.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/9NewsQueensland/status/1304313930463031297

" soon "  not likely ...  maybe in 10 to 20 years if we are lucky ..

[verbatim9]

I suspect Toowoomba would need a new underground station preferably located outside the flood zone but with in the CBD of Toowoomba. They could incorporate it within the existing bus interchange as this is State held land and dated. They could have a deep rail station with an underground bus interchange with commercial property on top and a new public realm. The tunnel would continue a bit further and surface well before Wellcamp with a surface station at Wellcamp Airport.

New potential tunnels:-

Sections Inbetween Coopers plains and Loganlea.

Coolangatta Airport

Toowoomba range and CBD

New Cut and Cover or Underground Stations:-

Coolangatta

Toowoomba CBD.

Surface Stations:-

Others in-between and Sunshine.Coast.

[Gazza]

I hear you but Rosewood locals will still be running.  There is also Wulkuraka to consider. 
In 20 years there will be a lot more development out west of Ipswich.  It is growing now.

Also possible rail from Ripley will be joining the line west of Ipswich. 

The fast rail will not be stopping at Rosewood.  My guess it would be Roma St - Ipswich - Laidley - Gatton - Helidon - Toowoomba.

If it is going to done, needs be done right with the ability to run the trains fast.  For that track capacity will be needed.

Politically, Rosewood would need a stop, given the amount of housing growth out there and the distance from both Ipswich or Laidley.

I would look at extending the Ipswich line service to Wulkuraka and expanding stabling there (Thomas St and Wulkuraka are well and truly within the suburbs of Ipswich anyway)

So if Thomas St / Wulkuraka are getting a frequency boost, and Rosewood is getting a much faster service into town, then that only leaves Thagoona, Karrabin and Walloon.

It's a given that Thagoona Pax will probably drive to Rosewood to use the express.

That just leaves Karrabin and Walloon, which collectively are used by 40 passengers a day.

Would I bother spending $100m or more extending a triple to keep those tiny stations open? Probably not, I'd just close them, build 100 extra park and ride spaces at Rosewood and call it a day.

[verbatim9]

The South East Queensland Council of Mayors is urging the federal, state government and opposition to get behind its fast rail plan. https://t.co/VZ3A1cpmr5 #7NEWS https://t.co/QlNbv1pF5C

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1304337952579837952

[ozbob]

I hear you but Rosewood locals will still be running.  There is also Wulkuraka to consider. 
In 20 years there will be a lot more development out west of Ipswich.  It is growing now.

Also possible rail from Ripley will be joining the line west of Ipswich. 

The fast rail will not be stopping at Rosewood.  My guess it would be Roma St - Ipswich - Laidley - Gatton - Helidon - Toowoomba.

If it is going to done, needs be done right with the ability to run the trains fast.  For that track capacity will be needed.

Politically, Rosewood would need a stop, given the amount of housing growth out there and the distance from both Ipswich or Laidley.

I would look at extending the Ipswich line service to Wulkuraka and expanding stabling there (Thomas St and Wulkuraka are well and truly within the suburbs of Ipswich anyway)

So if Thomas St / Wulkuraka are getting a frequency boost, and Rosewood is getting a much faster service into town, then that only leaves Thagoona, Karrabin and Walloon.

It's a given that Thagoona Pax will probably drive to Rosewood to use the express.

That just leaves Karrabin and Walloon, which collectively are used by 40 passengers a day.

Would I bother spending $100m or more extending a triple to keep those tiny stations open? Probably not, I'd just close them, build 100 extra park and ride spaces at Rosewood and call it a day.

The fast rail is not local commuter transport.  It will have a premium fare structure.  Citytrain ( or whoever it is in 20 - 30 years)  will still be servicing Rosewood.  Stops will need to be restricted for the fast rail or the ' fast ' will not be achieved.  Without dedicated fast rail tracks the service will be constantly restricted. It is possible that commuter rail may have extended further out by that time as well.

The stations between Rosewood and Ipswich will all see significant pax growth by the time fast rail was ever in place.  Lot of development has started. They will need their Citytrain rail service.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> New fast rail push to get SEQ's post-COVID recovery on track

The Wagner Corporation built an airport for Toowoomba in 18 months when it realised it was taking too long for its customers' goods to get to Brisbane.

Toowoomba's Wellcamp Airport was the first Australian airport built on a greenfield site since Melbourne's Tullamarine Airport, 47 years earlier.

Now Denis Wagner wants to be part of Queensland's push towards fast rail, where trains travelling 160km/h link cities and decentralise south-east Queensland.

The idea is to allow people to live in one part of south-east Queensland and work in another, joined by a 45-minute rail journey.

South-east Queensland's mayors believe the Citytrain network will be too slow for the region's future, which is expected to be home to more than 5.3 million people in 20 years.

Before the COVID-19 pandemic, more than 150,000 passengers each year took advantage of the 24 weekly flights from Toowoomba. Increasing levels of freight, the primary reason for the airport's construction, is still travelling from Toowoomba to Hong Kong and Singapore.

Mr Wagner argues fast rail planning should begin now. The broad picture is to link the cities with south-east Queensland's four airports — Sunshine Coast, Toowoomba, Brisbane and the Gold Coast — with fast rail.

The Queensland government's $5.4 billion underground Cross River Rail is the connecting glue between fast rail and the Citytrain suburban network.

"Let's plan over the course of the next four, five years, 10 years to build it, whatever it takes," Mr Wagner said.

"The $15 million business case – from Brisbane to Toowoomba - will determine the appropriate time to build it."

Fast rail is firmly on the agenda of the Queensland and Australian governments.

The Queensland government is now part of three fast rail business cases: the North Coast Connect concept, linking Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast; the $8 million Brisbane-Gold Coast concept; and the more recent Brisbane-Toowoomba concept, for which the Australian government has brought forward $15 million.

The Queensland government is wary of being left with a big financial burden, given talk of capturing money from increasing land values never eventuated with Cross River Rail and the federal government left Queensland to fund the $5.4 billion rail project itself.

Brisbane lord mayor Adrian Schrinner, who chairs the Council of Mayors (South East Queensland), said resolving fast rail funding was "down the track".

"This is not about signing a blank cheque. This is about doing the planning and getting it right," Cr Schrinner said.

On Friday, all of south-east Queensland's mayors turned up to ask the Queensland government for more direct input to the three business cases.

Mr Wagner said his company had no input into the Brisbane-Toowoomba business case, despite its infrastructure experience.

"We would like to have that input through our local council and certainly the input needs to come through the local community's industry forums," he said.

"But one of the challenges is that we need the state government to come on board and make sure it is a very cohesive approach."

There is also the expected politics before the Queensland election on October 31.

The Council of Mayors released ReachTel polling of 2100 residents in the south-east on Friday, which showed 81.4 per cent believed a fast rail network would reduce congestion in south-east Queensland.

Just more than 55 per cent said it might influence their vote at the election.

Cr Schrinner said he understood most people were only thinking of getting through the next months of the pandemic.

"But I have no doubt that there will be more people moving to our region because of COVID," he said.

"People from Melbourne we are already hearing are wanting to come and live in our region because of the great lifestyle and economic opportunities we have got here, but unless we invest in better transport, liveability will suffer."

The mayors have argued for fast rail to be advanced in south-east Queensland as an Olympics 2032 bid was made in December 2019.

Cr Schrinner said he had asked Transport Minister Mark Bailey and Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk to be included in the planning process, but that local governments were still excluded.

"At the moment we are being completely locked out of this process and that means the people of south-east Queensland are being locked out of this process," he said.

The mayors believe that without having direct input to the business cases, the Queensland government will recommend some minor improvements to the Citytrain network.

Toowoomba mayor Paul Antonio said: "We don't want this study to be done by bureaucrats in Brisbane.

"We want it to be broad and include the business community of the whole corridor; that is Ipswich, the Lockyer Valley and ourselves to get the best outcome for our community."

He said the freight-based Melbourne-Brisbane Inland Rail project and a proposed fast rail connection should share the same proposed rail tunnel near Toowoomba.

"Obviously if you build this [fast] rail line and you want to build the freight line [Inland Rail] there will have to be a tunnel over six kilometres long through the Toowoomba range," he said.

"I think there would be synergy there – and save a fair bit of money – if both projects used the same tunnel."

Sunshine Coast mayor Mark Jamieson said the LNP-financed North Coast Connect business case – Queensland's first business case on a fast rail network – did advocate changes to the existing Sunshine Coast rail line, which was laid in the 1890s.

"Between Nambour and Beerburrum it is still a single line and it's one of the biggest choke points in the whole Queensland rail system," he said.

The road alternative, the ever-expanding Bruce Highway, was choked regularly.

"The answer is not building additional (road) lanes," he said.

"The answer is putting in an effective fast rail network that would earn the community's confidence about how they could travel more easily between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast."

" Cr Schrinner said he had asked Transport Minister Mark Bailey and Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk to be included in the planning process, but that local governments were still excluded.

"At the moment we are being completely locked out of this process and that means the people of south-east Queensland are being locked out of this process," he said. "

The mayors believe that without having direct input to the business cases, the Queensland government will recommend some minor improvements to the Citytrain network.

Toowoomba mayor Paul Antonio said: "We don't want this study to be done by bureaucrats in Brisbane.

"We want it to be broad and include the business community of the whole corridor; that is Ipswich, the Lockyer Valley and ourselves to get the best outcome for our community."

This is a key point.  There is not much faith in the state's TMR to get this right.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/7NewsToowoomba/status/1304333327856316416