Regional Fast Rail discussion

[SurfRail]

People will catch the trains irrespective of whether they are diesel mechanical, diesel electric, battery electric, electric with OHLE or some combination.

[ozbob]

Breaking ...   

> > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12633.msg197125#msg197125

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

21st September 2017

Regional Rapid Rail - an opportunity presents for Queensland

Good Morning,

Couriermail has continued the theme of Future Brisbane with another piece this morning:

Couriermail --> Opinion: Brisbane's future liveability linked to its connections to the Gold and Sunshine Coasts

" ... For Brisbane to retain its position on the list, the connectedness of the two coasts needs to be addressed.

While a short-term solution may be to build more roads, that's unlikely to provide a long-term solution as the nature of car ownership will surely change in the future. High-speed rail connections are essential and once the heavy rail and the Gold Coast trams are linked, it will spur the Gold Coast's development even further. ..."

A point we have made constantly.  Fast rail, or what we believe is a better descriptor: Regional Rapid Rail as we have previously proposed to connect the Sunshine Coast and the Gold Coast is very achievable [ Regional Rapid Rail link discussion
> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12393.0 ].

We are not talking about pie-in-the-sky Magnetic Levitation or Hyper-loop dreams but running 160-200 km/h heavy rail services through upgraded track and use of electric tilt trains - something that Queensland already delivers in part.  There is an affordable upgrade path to deliver this.

Cross River Rail will provide the key link to the north and south.  A new track alignment from Park Road to south of Beenleigh, continuing on from Cross River Rail for a fast service is needed. To the north from Cross River Rail a new connection to the northern line is achieved by connection with the North West Transport Corridor thence onto the main northern line.  Upgrades between Beerburrum to Nambour are also needed, and in fact these should begin now.

Yesterday, the Minister for Urban Infrastructure Paul Fletcher released a media statement: Government on the hunt for fresh fast rail proposals
[ http://paulfletcher.com.au/media-centre/media-releases/item/2029-media-release-government-on-the-hunt-for-fresh-fast-rail-proposals.html ]

" ... For the many commuters in regional and outer urban areas, faster rail has the potential to have a significant impact on their quality of life by allowing them to spend more time at home, and less time travelling," Mr Chester said.

"This initiative will explore improvements to the rail connections between our cities and surrounding regional areas through $20 million in funding to support the development of business cases."

Minister Fletcher said the prospectus began the call for proposals process, with the Australian Government seeking business cases that demonstrate faster rail travel times through new or upgraded rail infrastructure, continuing its commitment to investment in high-quality rail infrastructure.

"In addition, business cases must outline initiatives that will increase housing choices by opening up regional areas, encourage job and career opportunities, and improve access to specialist services for people in regional areas, as well as major events," Mr Fletcher said. ..."

Now is the hour.  The Queensland Government through its appropriate agencies should submit proposals for Regional Rapid Rail upgrades now as an urgent priority.  First on the list must be the upgrade of the Sunshine Coast line between Beerburrum and Nambour.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/910550188816711680

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/910551679384174592

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/910615086892335104

[#Metro]

When I first floated RRR (a modification of HSR), it had to go into the "Wacky Dude Corner" just so a discussion could happen on it.

Then I was lambasted about all aspects of the proposal.

Nevertheless, through discussions, bit by bit, solutions were found and adapted to the problem at hand.

Victoria's V/Line provides some guidance as to what can be done. As do other places like Barcelona, that has Rodalies (Regional Rail limited stop railway).

Well, now we have money on the table to do investigations on it.

Gold Coast is the obvious one. Cross River Rail will be built and it can work off that.

[ozbob]

You have done well #Metro.  Regional Rapid Rail does follow on from ' CoastLink ' the aspirational one hour rail services to the Gold and Sunny Coasts in Connecting SEQ 2031 in a sense.

I think it is essential that the LNP grasps the fact that Cross River Rail is really pivotal to many things.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/910619767752364032

[Cazza]

I caught the 10:29 Central to Gold Coast train yesterday and at Nerang, at least 60-70 people got off and transferred onto a bus towards the coast. About 40 or so caught the 12:47 (at Nerang Station) 740 and travelled across to Surfers.

It stood out to me how vital this connection is and how many benefits Stage 2 of the Light Rail will have.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/the_chronicle_/status/928508786347823104

[Cazza]

It took me about 10 secs to sign the petition just then. In that 10 secs, about another 10-15 people had signed it too.

[SABB]

In the late 1990s, QR's Civil Engineering section was tasked with designing a high speed Toowoomba bypass (around the northern side). At that time, the cost of this bypass was about 1/3rd of the total cost of Inland Rail.  In the early 2000s, Everald Compton's group had another look at the Toowoomba Bypass. They said that Inland freight did not need high speed and redesigned the bypass for 80kph.  This saved a massive amount of earthworks and bridging.  If QR wanted high speed trains, then QR would have to fund the difference. I noted that ARTC's website says that the design speed for mountainous areas is 80kph. 
So, don't expect to have a high speed railway alignment from Toowoomba to Brisbane as part of Inland Rail (unless the Qld Government puts in a lot of extra dollars)

[tazzer9]

People will catch the trains irrespective of whether they are diesel mechanical, diesel electric, battery electric, electric with OHLE or some combination.

You will find that more people will catch it if its fully electric.  Even when the same level of service is offered.  Its one of those psychological things where we think electricity will make it better.  However, usually an electrified line offers far more than if its just diesel.

[SurfRail]

In the late 1990s, QR's Civil Engineering section was tasked with designing a high speed Toowoomba bypass (around the northern side). At that time, the cost of this bypass was about 1/3rd of the total cost of Inland Rail.  In the early 2000s, Everald Compton's group had another look at the Toowoomba Bypass. They said that Inland freight did not need high speed and redesigned the bypass for 80kph.  This saved a massive amount of earthworks and bridging.  If QR wanted high speed trains, then QR would have to fund the difference. I noted that ARTC's website says that the design speed for mountainous areas is 80kph. 
So, don't expect to have a high speed railway alignment from Toowoomba to Brisbane as part of Inland Rail (unless the Qld Government puts in a lot of extra dollars)

A train that can sit on 80kph IS high speed compared to what is currently there...

[red dragin]

A train that can sit on 80kph IS high speed compared to what is currently there...

Using the apparent 32km length of the current range railway as an example

80kph = 24 minutes
120kph = 16 minutes

Ignoring the need to slow down prior to the station, what price tag do you put on 8 minutes, which could easily be found or lost across the flatter terrain?

I think we'd all be happier with 80kph trains for the last leg to Toowoomba versus the 0 trains we have now.

[SABB]

Back in 1980, there was a deviation designed for Bethania to Holmview. At that time, there was discussion about the design speed for the new alignment - 80kph vs 100kph.  It was decided to design for 80kph on the basis that the time saving was only about 12 seconds. Today, it is one of the few 80kph sections in that area of the Gold Coast Line.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

15th November 2017

The Problem With Tim's Very Fast Train - Cross River Rail

Greetings,

The LNP this week released a public transport policy document. Inside is a promise for a study into a very fast train (we will call it High-Speed Rail or HSR for simplicity).

RAIL Back on Track will support HSR only if it is consistent with our Regional Rapid Rail vision. In our vision, signal and selective track upgrades building on the existing rail network will allow the introduction of electric tilt trains to lines such as the Gold Coast Line, Sunshine Coast Line and even to Toowoomba as DMU tilt trains. The faster tilt trains will enter the Brisbane CBD through Cross River Rail.

Problems with Tim Nicholls' and the LNP's proposal include:

- Queensland's railways are narrow gauge. Worldwide, HSR systems are generally standard gauge. This would cost tens of billions to set up from scratch in Queensland and take many decades to be a decent size. It is not going to happen. Therefore, any HSR proposal will need to be the result of evolving the existing narrow gauge rail network. It is a fact that the Australian rail speed record is held by a Queensland Rail tilt train - 210 km.h ( 130.4 mph) recorded between Meadowvale and Avondale near Bundaberg Queensland on the 23rd May 1999, running on narrow gauge!

- A HSR train's higher speed reduces line capacity. Higher speed and shorter journey time will also induce much higher passenger patronage. With 'all stop' train services also sharing the tracks, a peak-hour capacity crisis on the Gold Coast line will occur.

- Due to this lack of capacity at peak hour, the LNP's HSR trains will experience massive train congestion entering the Brisbane CBD. Any time savings from HSR express running will cancel out, and reduced line capacity will lead to overcrowding on trains. A new river crossing is thus required. In short - Cross River Rail.

- Tim Nicholls has been casting doubt by saying that Cross River Rail "didn't stack up". Rubbish. Both the cost-benefit analysis and the net present value indicators assessed by Infrastructure Australia were large and positive. Cross River Rail must proceed as planned now!

- We note that Tim Nicholls has lent his support to a duplicated M1 motorway, both without Infrastructure Australia analysis or any cost-benefit analysis. How is this not a double standard?

Tim Nicholls needs to spell out exactly how these new HSR trains on the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast lines will enter the Brisbane CBD. Geometry requires that they must cross the Brisbane River somewhere, and it is hard to see how they will do that without a 'Cross River Rail like' tunnel being built.

Statements about 'overall' general patronage levels proving that Cross River Rail is not needed are invalid because commuter rail systems are built for peak load times, just like electricity networks, road networks and stadiums are.  Other states are moving forward with their heavy rail networks, Queensland is frozen in time.

It is good to dream but the reality is the immediate concern needs to be unblocking the metropolitan system before SEQ stagnates. Cross River Rail is essential in that reality.

Best wishes,

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

LNP Public Transport Policy
https://www.betterqueensland.org.au/better-public-transport

Gold Coast - Regional Rapid Rail link?
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12393.0

New Zealanders have already proposed a Regional Rapid Rail concept for New Zealand's largest
city, Auckland. See https://www.greaterauckland.org.nz/2017/08/17/introducing-regional-rapid-rail/

[#Metro]

Sunshine Coast Rocket Train


Plan for supercharged 45-minute trip on Sunshine Coast rail line

http://www.cairnspost.com.au/news/queensland/plan-for-supercharged-45minute-trip-on-sunshine-coast-rail-line/news-story/1376583dae1f254facebfae579024287

SUPERCHARGED fast rail that rockets passengers between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast in 45 minutes is being evaluated by the Federal Government, after a consortium of planning giants developed the confidential plan.

North Coast Connect will create up to 200km of fast rail, saving passengers about two hours in a return trip, and for the first time link Brisbane to Maroochydore by rail.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Plan for supercharged 45-minute trip on Sunshine Coast rail line

SUPERCHARGED fast rail that rockets passengers between Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast in 45 minutes is being evaluated by the Federal Government, after a consortium of planning giants developed the confidential plan.

North Coast Connect will create up to 200km of fast rail, saving passengers about two hours in a return trip, and for the first time link Brisbane to Maroochydore by rail.

The project, submitted by Stockland, Smec, Urbis and KPMG, has the backing of "Team Queensland", the Coalition's 26 federal parliamentarians, who are demanding the Prime Minister give Queensland a majority slice of $10 billion set aside under its National Rail Program.

The Courier-Mail can reveal the project has been short-listed by the Government.

Team Queensland's unashamed call for extra cash is on top of its bid for Land 400, a multibillion-dollar defence investment that will be announced within weeks.

North Coast Connect will not only transform southeast Queensland but likely provide the passenger numbers needed for Infrastructure Australia to tick off on Cross River Rail.

The new bid, which will also create jobs for the state, was one of 26 rail projects submitted for three business cases that the Commonwealth will consider funding.

Ten other projects have been short-listed but North Coast Connect is the only Queensland fast-rail project that made the cut.

The winning three projects that share in $20 million in business case funding are likely to be announced next month.

Australia does not use fast rail. The fastest passenger rail services travel about 80km. China, Japan, Korea, France, the UK and the US use fast rail.

Under the plan, the project has three key parts, including:

● An upgrade of the existing North Coast Line section from Brisbane to Beerburrum, to facilitate faster rail through curve easing, level crossing removals and system upgrades;

● The Beerburrum to Nambour Rail Upgrade Project, which includes new rail and an upgrade of existing rail and rejuvenating railway towns into the hinterland; and

● A new passenger rail service branching off the North Coast Line at Beerwah via a 40km spur-line connecting Beerwah East, Aura, Caloundra, Birtinya, Mooloolaba and Maroochydore to Brisbane.

Member for Fairfax Ted O'Brien, who has been driving the project on behalf of the LNP, said Team Queensland "are going after this one hard".

"With $10 billion available from the Turnbull Government, we need to be advocating for billions, not millions,'' Mr O'Brien said.

"Fast rail means people can live, work and play where they want, without the stress of excessive commuting times.

"It will expand job and study options, enable more lifestyle choice and build an economically strong and user-friendly southeast corner.

"If we can get fast rail, as opposed to standard 100-year-old rail, we'll see people wake up in Nambour at 7 o'clock and be at their desk in Brisbane by 8 o'clock.

"We'll also see Brisbane residents knock off from work at 5 o'clock and be sitting at the Big Pineapple for a concert at 6 o'clock, then be tucked into bed back home in Brisbane by 10 o'clock."

Frontbencher Peter Dutton said that the plan could relieve pressure on the Bruce Highway.

"The regions between Brisbane and the north coast are developing rapidly and we need to plan now for those new communities under development,'' he said.

Petrie MP Luke Howarth said the plan would provide further infrastructure for Australia's third biggest council in the Moreton Bay region.

Fisher MP Andrew Wallace said investment in roads was not enough.

"After having received a record $1.6 billion in funding for the Bruce Highway upgrades, Sunshine Coast federal LNP members understand that our transport woes will not be cured by simply adding lanes to the highway," Mr Wallace said.

Student Myah Bahloo Chambers, 18, said she regularly used the Sunshine Coast line to visit family and friends and would love to see a lightning fast rail built.

"I think it would be very helpful," she said.

"It usually takes me about an hour and a half to travel from the Sunshine Coast to Brisbane, so I would love to be able to do it in 45 minutes."

[ozbob]

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/the-couriermail-morning-blog-news-traffic-weather-updates/news-story/ca8605be570d4681bb41691bcae62e4d

A PLAN to build a high-speed rail connection between Brisbane and the rest of the southeast Queensland region could soon become reality.

The Toowoomba Chronicle reports that the proposal hangs on the Federal Government signing on to a City Deal proposed by the South East Queensland Council of Mayors.

Toowoomba Regional Council Mayor and deputy chair of COMSEQ Paul Antonio said a potential deal would focus on connecting the whole of the southeast Queensland region to fast rail.

The City Deal plan for southeast Queensland was first proposed in 2016 and was taken to the Federal Government in April this year.

This week COMSEQ chair Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk and Deputy Premier Jackie Trad met with industry groups to get their support for the proposal.

Ms Trad told The Courier-Mail a deal in SEQ would ensure the region was plugged into the "fastest growing economic zone in the world".

"What we are really aiming to try and achieve through this collaborative City Deal process is to take the region ... to the next level economically."

[ozbob]

The second part of this segment has some items relevant to this thread.  A ' 30 year time frame ' ..   :bi

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1027466552474460160

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/7NewsSC/status/1027465346045767680

Mr Wallace makes a good point. The State is struggling to do a relatively simple track amplification ... 

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/1027469526827298817

[Stillwater]

Have we not been on this merry-go-round before?  The 'never build it in 50 years' carrot is always held out while the relatively easy is ignored.

It is interesting to see state labor pick up on the 45-minutes to the Sunshine Coast LNP mantra.

Come what may, Jackie Trad will stick to her story of everything depending on CRR first.  You watch.

[ozbob]

Connecting 2031 has morphed to Connecting 2048.  It is never going happen with the Governments we have. 

Besides, in 2048 we will all be in autonomous flying submarines .. 

[#Metro]

Does it come with or without toilet??

[ozbob]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=248174685822850&id=123254831648170

[#Metro]

Connecting 2031 has morphed to Connecting 2048.  It is never going happen with the Governments we have. 

Besides, in 2048 we will all be in autonomous flying submarines ..

There is a LOT wrong with the gov't at the moment and my eyes hurt when I read their media releases.

However, red team has consistently delivered fare and zone reform, 4 year terms, the entire busway network, the entire Kippa ring line, entire GC light rail, Translink. They do have runs on the board.
Blue Team delivered ... Electrification in the 1980s. It's a loooong time.

That's quite an achievement in a state that is as decentralised as QLD and where more conservative views exist outside of Brisbane.

PS: To get RRR you'll probably have to remove line side signalling.

[techblitz]

the entire busway network, the entire Kippa ring line, entire GC light rail

Infrastructure performance probably shouldn't be compared at the state level labor has been in power for 24 out of the last 29 years...
Of course red team are going to achieve more and build more at a state level.
By all means at a state level compare them on non-infrastructure related issues eg: bus reviews or organisational changes etc....but in terms of infrastructure built....red team has naturally achieved more.....they are the kings of creating jobs....and I think you have the hint why....
Blue team the complete opposite (public service cuts)...in those few years that they were in...

[Fares_Fair]

https://twitter.com/Jeffrey_Addison/status/1027493588429500416?

[ozbob]

^ Good work FF.  Mr Wallace has said in other interviews too the #2tracks duplication must go ahead now effectively.  And we agree.

Fast rail will need it's own corridors south of Caboolture and north of Beenleigh, and out west if it is to ever happen.  Massive costs, is only ever going to be an aspiration for a long time.  We must double down on #2tracks now!

And Cross River Rail, an important connector in some senses, is not really being future proofed.

I will be long dead before any of this fast rail stuff ever happens, if at all. Reality.

[ozbob]

Is regional rapid rail a good move?

Certainly is.

What needs to happen?

Corridors need to be identified and preserved.

Will all three tiers of Government cooperate for the longer term good of the region, state and nation?

Unknown.

Cross River Rail has a major potential role to play in regional rapid rail.  If that role is not factored in now it will make implementation down the track so much more difficult (and expensive).

So I think we should start pointing out the basic realities.

Corridors firstly.  Getting Cross River Rail improved.

Also a comment on ' 45 minute ' travelling time.  This could be achieved point to point on a proper corridor however there would be very few stops.  Overall journey time with a connection to get to the rapid rail would have to be considered (presently glossed over). 

We have seen this before, Connecting 2031 ' Coast-Link ' one hour journey times.  We have now effectively gone to Connecting 2048!   

Exhibit A:

[ozbob]

Does it come with or without toilet??

Several, all compliant!   

[red dragin]

Several, all compliant!   

[verbatim9]

The second part of this segment has some items relevant to this thread.  A ' 30 year time frame ' ..   :bi

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1027466552474460160

I hope they bring the Toowoomba stage forward to the late 2020s with services running to Gatton 2025 and to Tooowoomba in 2028. Fast electric rail as per the Federal Government Business Case. HSR, "I guess'" it's the master plan of 2030 and beyond!?

[ozbob]

[verbatim9]

Couriermail --> Scott Morrison pitches fast train proposal for 35-minute Coast commute

THE Morrison Government will move to stop southeast Queensland from becoming spaghetti junction by unveiling a fast rail plan that rapidly connects commuters but stops urban sprawl.

Prime Minister Scott Morrison will today reveal funding for a fast rail business case for a 35-minute commute from Brisbane to the Gold Coast, on top of the work already being done on a fast rail plan for Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast and Brisbane to Toowoomba.

Today, Mr Morrison will announce five new business cases nationwide, costing $40 million, as part of the Government's wider vision to take pressure off cities and keep dying regional centres alive.

Funding for a Brisbane to Gold Coast business case is a significant win for The Courier-Mail's Future SEQ campaign, which was supported by Queensland councils crying out for a long-term vision to help one of the fastest growing regions in the country.

About 3.4 million people live in the southeast and it is projected to increase by an extra 1.8 million by 2041.

The PM's 20-year fast rail plan will be bolstered by a new National Fast Rail Agency to guide the work and determine priorities.

It is likely the Government will enter into public-private partnerships to fast track the building of the new fast rail networks.

"As our population grows, fast rail networks are crucial to easing the congestion pressures in our cities and shaping Australia's future," Mr Morrison said.

"As well as reducing our migration cap and introducing new visas and incentives to encourage more migrants out to the regional areas that need their skills, our record investment in congestion-busting infrastructure is key to tackling Australia's population challenges

Brisbane to Sunshine Coast fast rail line shortlisted by government

Member for Fairfax Ted O'Brien said a fast rail network would modernise the southeast corner.

"This announcement delivers on a vital piece of a larger, more compelling transport puzzle,'' Mr O'Brien said.

"Southeast Queensland is not one big city like Melbourne or Sydney ... we have distinct communities that are spread out ... and we therefore need transport solutions that can connect these communities, and this is where fast rail comes in."

He said the southeast did not want to morph into one big city, and it was time to plan.

"One of the biggest challenges of government is ensuring transport infrastructure stays ahead of the southeast Queensland population curve."

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1108748809704595457

[ozbob]

Gold Coast Bulletin --> Gold Coast Railway: PM Scott Morrison's $8m plan to slash Gold Coast rail line commute to Brisbane

PRIME Minister Scott Morrison's Federal Coalition plans to fork out $8 million on a business case for a new fast rail line slashing the Gold Coast-Brisbane commute to 32 minutes.

The business case will also look at the need for extending the existing rail line – or a new fast rail track – from Varsity Lakes to Gold Coast Airport.

The existing train connection between the two cities takes 74 minutes at an average speed of 69km/h, but the fast rail being envisaged would race along at 160km/h.

Mr Morrison will today reveal the Gold Coast-Brisbane congestion-busting plan is among five national fast rail business cases being funded in a bid to boost capital city connections to regional centres.

The fast rail infrastructure plan would give time back to commuters and enable more people to "live in our regions and work in our cities", Mr Morrison told the Bulletin.

"This is all part of our plan to manage population growth – to take the pressure off our big cities like Brisbane and make our regional cities like the Gold Coast even more attractive places to live and work.

"As our population grows, fast rail networks are crucial to easing the congestion pressures in our cities and shaping Australia's future.

"As well as reducing our migration cap and introducing new visas and incentives to encourage more migrants out to the regional areas that need their skills, our record investment in congestion busting infrastructure is key to tackling Australia's population challenges."

Gold Coast-based Minister for Industry, Science and Technology Karen Andrews confirmed the business case would analyse heavy or fast rail extending to Gold Coast Airport.

Ms Andrews, the Federal Member for McPherson, said the growth of the southern Gold Coast's population meant the need for infrastructure such as the heavy rail, light rail and an upgraded M1 were necessary.

"This will reduce the commuter travel times from the Gold Coast to Brisbane and improve the connectivity," she said.

"We are focused on getting people to and from work quickly and this means they will be able to get home sooner as well as getting them off the M1.

"Something this study will look at is how many people would be projected to use the train line to travel north and south," she said.

"For the southern Gold Coast this would be a huge game changer – it will make a difference in getting traffic off the feeder roads, relieve the M1 and get people moving to Brisbane."

The fast rail business case push will be a pleasant surprise for some Gold Coast business leaders who had been expecting the focus to remain on extending light rail south of Broadbeach.

Late last year Queensland Airports CEO Chris Mills, who oversees Gold Coast Airport, said in an ideal world both light and heavy rail would eventually connect to the airport but he believed light rail was more likely to proceed first.

Federal Minister for Cities, Urban Infrastructure and Population Alan Tudge said the fast rail plan was a critical part of the government's recently unveiled population plan for dealing with soaring growth.

"Fast rail from the big capitals to the regional cities eases the pressure off the big cities while supporting the growth of the regions," Mr Tudge said.

[SurfRail]

Heaven forfend the LNP actually have a better plan than the ALP picking up its off-with-the-fairies, hideously compromised and overpriced VFT.

[kram0]

Another project that will get glossy brochures and no real action........oh how wonderful