Regional Fast Rail discussion

[verbatim9]

Transport Minister Mark Bailey was stating in this evening's news that the Gold Coast fast rail line is pretty much guaranteed to be completed and ready for 2032. The other lines were not mentioned.

I hope as well as many others that both the Sunshine coast and Toowoomba electric fast rail lines will also be open and operational by the end of the decade.

[Cazza]

What does he mean by fast rail line though? Improvements to current alignment or proper new dedicated track via the M1/SE Freeway between Beenleigh and Greenslopes/Buranda-ish?

[timh]

What does he mean by fast rail line though? Improvements to current alignment or proper new dedicated track via the M1/SE Freeway between Beenleigh and Greenslopes/Buranda-ish?

This is Queensland. It will absolutely be improvements to current alignment if we're looking at a 10 year timeframe...

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[ozbob]

Yo.  I fear the thinking is that if they improve the track capacity between Kuraby - Beenleigh this will allow fast rail.

[IA  Gold Coast rail line and station improvements: Kuraby to Beenleigh
https://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/map/gold-coast-rail-line-and-station-improvements-kuraby-beenleigh ]

Don't forget about the LXs  as well Minister?

#FastRailDreaming < it's got its own hash tag   

[timh]

Transport Minister Mark Bailey was stating in this evening's news that the Gold Coast fast rail line is pretty much guaranteed to be completed and ready for 2032. The other lines were not mentioned.

I hope as well as many others that both the Sunshine coast and Toowoomba electric fast rail lines will also be open and operational by the end of the decade.

Verbatim do you have a link/source? Not doubting you or anything just trying to find the statement myself

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[ozbob]

^

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1365939871852859392

Minister Bailey " ... faster rail to the Gold Coast is absolutely will be on our games wish list ... " #FastRailDreaming .... 

[aldonius]

They can triplicate all they like but it won't make the curves around Trinder Park any faster.

[timh]

^

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/1365939871852859392

Minister Bailey " ... faster rail to the Gold Coast is absolutely will be on our games wish list ... " #FastRailDreaming .... 

"...fastER rail... will be on our games WISH LIST..."

There's a big difference between "faster rail" and "Fast Rail" and Bailey knows it. "On our wish list" also means begging for federal money. I think you're right about dreaming Bob!

I think the GC line will see upgrades certainly, but not what anyone internationally would consider the standard for Regional Fast Rail.

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[ozbob]

^ & ^^

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ArupAustralasia/status/1371978134338347009

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/SEQMayors/status/1372017797946048517

[verbatim9]

Sounds like it's progressing. To ensure Fast rail is viable and within budget it's best to integrate it as much as possible into the existing network.

In regard to rolling stock, dual purpose trains would be ideal. The next order of 20 NGR sets should include improved specs to allow the trains to run at speeds of 160-180kph as well as run and be utilised on the current network. They should also aim for 9 car sets for the new order.

[Fares_Fair]

^ & ^^

Lol.
I can see 'almost Faster Rail' as the next quantum leap..

[achiruel]

Was in Sydney recently and was able to catch regular schedule service from Lithgow to Central - a distance of about 140km.  Good patronage too from Blue Mountains stations.

Not really a like-for-like comparison with Toowoomba. For a start, the patronage west of Mount Victoria is junk. Most of them could probably fit in the Bathurst Bullet.

Additionally, the edge of the suburban area (Emu Plains) is about 20km from Springwood, the first major town in the Blue Mountains. Springwood is approaching 10k population; the only town that comes close in the Lockyer valley is Gatton. Wulkaraka to Gatton is ~50km.

The Blue Mountains is also a very narrow strip, with most of the population living in towns close to the railway line.

Of course this would've been a moot point if the State Government sensibly planned SEQ expansion west along the rail corridor instead of daft places like Yarrabilba.

[verbatim9]

Fast rail update received today --->

Dear Friend,

You were one of thousands to have joined my campaign for better rail, and I thought it timely to provide you with a status update.

Firstly, today we announced $5 million of Federal Government funding to assess a much-needed change to Stage 2 of the Beerburrum to Nambour project on the North Coast Rail Line.

Although we secured $390 million of Federal Government funding for the Beerburrum to Nambour project and Stage 1 is soon to begin, I have never liked Stage 2. This is because the current Stage 2 design only improves stations and passing loops north of Landsborough, but what the people of the hinterland, and especially Nambour, deserve is full two-track duplication along the entire stretch.

Our commitment of $5 million is to assess this full duplication solution, with a design that will also accommodate the possibility of a fast rail solution to Nambour in the future.

Secondly, my campaign for fast rail connecting Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast continues. A federally funded independent report was released a few months ago, recommending a heavy rail line along the CAMCOS corridor to the Maroochydore CBD. (Note – this is heavy rail, NOT light rail). However, the State Government is not supporting the project and thus, Infrastructure Australia hasn't been able to give it the green light (yet!). 

Regardless of the State Government's position, I'm not giving up. And please don't you give up either. We've made great progress to date and although it's hard work and it takes time, it will be worth it.

We need to continue building a 'unity ticket' to make Fast Rail a reality. I encourage you to recruit your friends, family and workmates to 'Get on Board! by registering their support at fastrail.com.au. Please spread the word.

Best regards,

Ted O'Brien MP
Member for Fairfax

[Stillwater]

Mr Andrew Wallace, the Federal Member for Fisher,  adds the following:

"Mr Wallace said that further upgrades north of Beerwah would deliver important benefits for residents in Landsborough, Eudlo, Palmwoods, Woombye and Nambour.

"Whether you live in Caloundra, Kawana or in the hinterland, I want to see all residents on the Sunshine Coast able to access a frequent and fast rail service to travel within our region and
further afield. This study into rail duplication north of Beerwah is another important step forward in making that a reality.

"The Federal Government's $5 million commitment to this project is subject to matched funding from the state government. The North Coast Rail Line is owned and operated by the state
government and is a state government responsibility."

[kram0]

So who in state government is holding up the rail to Caloundra/Maroochydore? Half wits.

No wonder the feds don't support Qld like NSW and Vic. Bailey and co just play games!

[verbatim9]

It all seems to be diversion tactics because there are no available funds for the proposed projects. Only a confirmed Olympic bid will release funds, or asset recycling.

[achiruel]

The North Coast Rail Line is owned and operated by the state government and is a state government responsibility."

Half truth. The NCL, (along with the Great Northern Line and the SG line from Acacia Ridge to the border) are part of the National Land Transport Network, i.e. the Feds should be stumping up 80% of the project cost.

It all seems to be diversion tactics because there are no available funds for the proposed projects. Only a confirmed Olympic bid will release funds, or asset recycling.

Yes, even though the Feds should be committing 80%, they persistently refuse. Remember this when casting your vote at the next election. As for asset "recycling" (what an absurd name), it's nothing but a political ploy by the LNP to make more assets available for purchase by their mates in the corporate sector, and does not offer any long-term benefits for governments or the public. Considering the current price of borrowing, there's no reason money couldn't be borrowed to make these projects happen, but I suspect the biggest problem right now would be the shortage of skilled labour.

[verbatim9]

That's not true that asset recycling has no public benefit. When assets are run privately, they provide tax receipts which in turn provides funds for the public. A lot of assets in the state governments hands are run inefficiently, except for QIC which is technically not run by the state government. Yes the government still can borrow but it just adds to their liability. All other states in Australia are off loading their assets when they can, with no public outcry. Just remember the current state government doesn't have a mandate not to sell assets, it just a inefficient Qld Labor policy like many others policies they have, which need to be reviewed.

[kram0]

Assets run privately are often done so far more efficiently than what Governments can run them.

Just look at NSW. Sold some of there Government owned assets and now their current infrastructure boom is on another planet compared to both Queensland and even Victoria.

The Metro in Sydney will have a price tag of about $50B. They are not printing glossy brochures, they are building shinny new infrastructure projects. Less talk and more action. 

[#Metro]

Yes, Sydney ferries costs dropped dramatically when they were contracted out.

And Sydney used the funds for a metro, Melbourne used the port sale proceeds for the metro tunnel project.

[achiruel]

Assets run privately are often done so far more efficiently than what Governments can run them.

Now look at the cost of electricity generation in Qld vs NSW.

There is no hard and fast rule that privately run enterprise is magically more efficient, and in my experience it is rarely the case.

[JimmyP]

Plus, it is beyond stupid to sell a profit making asset to build a loss (or non-profit) making asset. What will NSW do when it no longer has any more attractive assets to sell?
Sure, good while it lasts, but soon they'll have nothing left to sell and bugger all making money apart from higher taxes!

[#Metro]

Disagree. If you believe that then the government should buy McDonald's.

Over time the economy grows which raises tax revenue so there is less need for GOCs.

The electricity thing is just statistical noise and not a trend. But I'm sure the Minister for Social Media (TM) would have you believe otherwise. Indeed the Queensland government loaded the GOCs with state debt which means either their workers get paid less or the customer has to be charged more as the money has to come from somewhere.

[SurfRail]

Plus, it is beyond stupid to sell a profit making asset to build a loss (or non-profit) making asset.

No it isn't.  Profitable enterprises and assets are sold all the time, for varying reasons.  You aren't going to get a premium price for a dud.

[JimmyP]

Problem is, sooner or later (much sooner than later the way Aus is going..), the gov'ts are going to run out of things that can be sold. Then what? Just a pile of things that need more $$ to maintain, with nothing but taxes to get that $$.
Much better IMO to keep the $$ making assets and use the currently very low interest rates to borrow to build. At least then there is still a rainy day fund if absolutely required.

Edit: For clarification, i'm talking more about essential services being sold off rather than things like redundant land etc.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Assets run privately are often done so far more efficiently than what Governments can run them.

Now look at the cost of electricity generation in Qld vs NSW.

There is no hard and fast rule that privately run enterprise is magically more efficient, and in my experience it is rarely the case.

And before metro took over the private operator ran the system into the ground. Some track was handed over to the ARTC and its in a worse state now than it was before. Newman tried to set QR up for privitisation and we are still feeling the effects of the people that tried to make it look efficient on paper when it was far from it. One part of QR has already been privitised with more coming (the next rollingstock contract is a repeat of the NGR contract but with a Queensland builder) and there have been problems brewing there for quite a while (just another one of the many NGR problems - they have also just been sold to Alstom by takeover if you were unaware). And lets not forget what Aurizon did when it was privitised. They maintained the status quo until the clauses expired and then just gutted the crap out of the entire company with regional towns and businesses heavily feeling the effects of lack/no/heavily increased priced freight services (the increased price in freight meant less people used it and was then justifiable that the running of those freight services wasn't warranted with services removed altogether) with state government not being able to do anything about it because they sold all the assets. Also even if you privitised all the SEQ operators there is no guarantee that services would improve as that's dictated by outside parties. Translink only pays operators for services provided.

Many problems in the railways (but lets be honest its public transport in general) can easily be addressed if people that knew what they were doing were running it instead of pollies sticking their fingers in it for points scoring votes at local and state based levels or merging sectors into main roads. Many infrastructure projects have had millions slashed from it to make it look better on paper eg Newman removing active transport/cycling links from the Kippa Ring and Springfield lines, which locals are now always complaining about but nothing will happen because of the cost (Hmmm CRR track plans... )

[aldonius]

I've heard it said that the Victorian State Electricity Commission as it was trained up several generations of apprentices, but that post privatisation that's not going so well. So GOCs can at least in some cases also serve policy goals more readily and directly than you could ever achieve with some incentive structure.

[SteelPan]

Assets run privately are often done so far more efficiently than what Governments can run them.

Now look at the cost of electricity generation in Qld vs NSW.

There is no hard and fast rule that privately run enterprise is magically more efficient, and in my experience it is rarely the case.

Only since literally BC has it been recorded, that state run assets never perform as well as those in the private sector!   

[#Metro]

We need to stick to topic please.

Bottom line is that rival states used the asset recycling scheme and got matching funding, QLD didn't want that and therefore we are expected to use the state assets we keep as collateral for borrowing or the so called "Profit stream" that people speak of from these assets to pay for what we want.

There's nothing really stopping the release of $1-2 bn being borrowed by the QLD Government, taking that debt, loading it into a GOC like the state  power generator or distributors, and then getting their customers to pay it off over time though "Profits". (E.g. Higher prices).

Just because something is gov't owned does not automatically mean it is run at cost. Far from it.

Now, I'm not recommending this but I believe this is what was done when Bligh / red team was around.

[verbatim9]

Queensland Olympic Legacy: High Speed Rail https://t.co/Y63LkcamG8 https://t.co/SQH2eKpN9X

https://twitter.com/brisdevelopment/status/1394305620942020608

[ozbob]

^ interesting read. 

https://brisbanedevelopment.com/queensland-olympic-legacy-high-speed-rail/

The Qld Labor State Government is not behind regional fast rail. They cannot even manage to improve the existing network properly.

Fast rail to them is ' faster rail ' ...

I don't hold much hope at all sorry to say.  Real risks linking it to the Olympics.

[verbatim9]

It should be built regardless of an Olympic bid.
Interesting that the route chosen above for the Toowoomba line goes via Ripley and Springfield, rather than Ipswich and Redbank.

[timh]

It should be built regardless of an Olympic bid.
Interesting that the route chosen above for the Toowoomba line goes via Ripley and Springfield, rather than Ipswich and Redbank.

I think you're misreading the map there. The Springfield label looks like it's at the end of the grey spur line there and not on the purple route itself.

These Brisbane Development articles are so foamy though. I like their pitch for the "Brisbane Subway" but their HSR ideas are way too far reaching. Fast Rail and HSR are two different things, and it's unlikely we'd ever get fast Rail to Maroochydore let alone HSR further north than that. Not in the next 100 years anyway.

The most egregious thing is their ridiculous circular city at Stapylton. Sure it's a cool design but it's silly to be pitching such an unlikely futuristic concept when they could be pushing for a more realistic goal.

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[verbatim9]

Yeah I have, it seems that a brand new line is proposed inbetween Ipswich and Darra. I would of thought the current corridor would be sufficient with upgrades and amplification.

[verbatim9]

I like the intiative and overall thoughts in Brisbane Development's proposal. The animation is good. I prefer single 9 car sets to shorter double stacked sets though.

[verbatim9]

News.com.au--->Foreign investment interest means fast rail in Australia could finally become a reality.

Fast rail in Australia has been a long-held dream for many in the country and one expert believes conditions could finally be right for projects to move ahead.

[SteelPan]

When we talk about REGIONAL rail, we are talking about fastER rail. "Fast Rail", as has been noted, is a completely different issue. [Think bullet trains/TGV's etc]

Brisbane/Gold Coast/Sunshine Coast [propper] and Toowoomba are perfect for FastER rail initiatives. The key, is bringing into the modelling ALL the fiscal and wide-regional economic and social benefits. Certainly corridor planning for fastER rail could also include future capacity for fast rail, but any projects are likely some years off, as they don't generally make much sense in countries like Australia.

Regards the modelling intermediary beneftis are the ones that usually get counted, the often [selectively] overlooked complementary benefits are where the real "added value" is found. There are internationally many examples of rail and other infrastructure projects, [initally] much more challenging and marginal than the forementioned rail links long since delivered.

[ozbob]

Fast rail is up to 160km/200km/h.  High speed rail is > 200km/h  (e.g. bullet trains).

The best Australia can realistically hope for is fast regional rail.  The use of the term ' faster rail ' has been adopted by the present State Government who has no real intention of delivering fast rail - they think a journey time reduction of a minute is 'faster rail'.