Regional Fast Rail discussion

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Plans unveiled to build Gold Coast skyrail link over M1

LOGAN'S Hyperdome, Springwood town centre and Garden City Shopping Centre could be new stops on a proposed fast rail track linking Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

The idea, dubbed the R1, would be an elevated train line running in conjunction with the current M1 highway.

A section of the fast track line would link up to the newly-constructed Gold Coast rail but existing track between Beenleigh and Park Road, would not be used.

The line would be built as an elevated "skytrain" along the industrial service roads fronting the M1 for much of its length through Logan, before tunnelling under Mt Gravatt and Toohey forest to avoid steep inclines.

From there, the line would surface and run down the middle of the M1 through Holland Park, with a final short connector tunnel allowing trains to join into Cross River Rail.

The plan was raised by commuter advocacy group Rail Back on Track after last week's State Government announcement it would proceed with the southern section of the Coomera Connector.

RAIL Back on Track's Robert Dow said the best long-term solution was to divert Gold Coast trains on to a new dedicated express route running directly along the M1 from Beenleigh to Dutton Park.

"That would allow trains to reach speeds of at least 160km/h, slashing travel times and providing an option well and truly faster than driving," Mr Dow said.

"It would have major ramifications for commuters in Logan.

"The Beenleigh train line means people just drive instead in preference, causing the road congestion crisis we see daily.

"Cross River Rail will offer a few minutes' time saving for Gold Coast trains, but it is only once piece of the puzzle and we need to be looking at a permanent long-term solution for linking Queensland's two biggest cities."

Mr Dow said the Gold Coast line did not reach its potential as trains were forced to slow down north of Beenleigh and follow a winding route through Logan and the southside.

The Beenleigh line was established over 100 years ago and trains averaged a speed of about only 50km/h.

Capacity constraints also forced trains to share tracks between Beenleigh and Coopers Plains, cutting the number of trains to half hourly.

Mr Dow said the project would cost billions of dollars and would not be complete until the late 2020s if it were approved by federal and state governments.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey said the M1 transport corridor was already a major factor in plans for transport systems of the future.

"We're already putting it to good use, and I agree exploring new ways to add more connections between different transport modes along the M1 – if it is viable – has some merit."

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1190028721434042370

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

1st November 2019

RAIL Back on Track calls for 'R1', fast rail between the Northern Gold Coast and Brisbane.

Last week, the State Government announced their intention to proceed with the Coomera Connector, the so called "Second M1" that will act as a parallel route to the Pacific Motorway.

RAIL Back on Track fundamentally believes that if a massive 8 lane motorway is clogged and we are building a new one just a few kilometres away, we are at the point where fast rail between Brisbane and the Gold Coast is absolutely viable and a higher priority.

Will we be talking about a third M1 in another 20 years time when this new one inevitably fills up?

Rail infrastructure can carry and move more people and caters to growth effortlessly. Take the Merivale Bridge, it has taken over 40 years to reach capacity!

The Gold Coast line does not currently reach its potential because trains are forced to slow down north of Beenleigh and follow a winding route through Logan and the southside, that was established over 100 years ago, averaging a speed of only 50 km/h.
Capacity constraints caused by having to share tracks with trains to Beenleigh and Coopers Plains mean trains can only run half hourly most of the time.

It means people just drive instead in preference, causing the congestion crisis we see daily.

Cross River Rail will offer a few minutes time saving for Gold Coast trains, but it is only once piece of the puzzle and we need to be looking at a permanent long term solution for linking Queensland's two biggest cities.

Enter, the R1.

RAIL Back on Track believes the best long term solution is to divert Gold Coast trains onto a new dedicated express route that runs directly along the M1 from Beenleigh to Dutton park, allowing trains to reach speeds of at least 160 km/h, slashing travel times and providing an option well and truly faster than driving.

The line would be built as an elevated "skytrain" along the industrial service roads fronting the M1 for much of its length through Logan, before tunnelling under Mt Gravatt/Toohey forest to avoid steep inclines.

From there, the line can surface and run down the middle of the M3 through Holland Park, with a final short connector tunnel allowing trains to join into Cross River Rail.

To keep journey times fast, stops would be limited, potentially at new stations located at Hyperdome, Springwood and Garden City, to allow people to reach key employment hubs and to allow connections with busway services for intermediate destinations.

Obviously, Cross River Rail remains the #1 priority for the rail system, but we cannot lose momentum, sit on our hands, and ignore the next round of crucial rail system improvements.

A project such as this would indeed cost billions and wouldn't be complete until the late 2020s, but it offers a real, permanent solution for travel along the corridor than just continuing with the disruptive and unsustainable process of building more and more motorway lanes every few years.

Contacts:

Gavin Seipelt
Southern Region Spokesperson for RAIL Back On Track

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1.  Australian Government: National Faster Rail Agency

https://www.nfra.gov.au/projects

2.  Brisbanetimes:  Elevated fast rail along M1 has 'merit': transport minister

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/elevated-fast-rail-along-m1-has-merit-transport-minister-20191029-p535hl.html

===========

Facebook ...

[ozbob]

Interview ABC Brisbane Radio Breakfast Hosts Craig Zonca and Loretta Ryan with Robert Dow RBoT 1st November 2019

Fast Rail to the Gold Coast - R1

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd1nov19.mp3  MP3  12.2MB

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1190039740029919232

[Gazza]

Alignment Map

[#Metro]

This is great, good for a follow up.

[ozbob]

   

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

1st November 2019

Re: RAIL Back on Track calls for 'R1', fast rail between the Northern Gold Coast and Brisbane.

Greetings,

Lots of interest in the R1, thank you.

Here is an alignment map for the proposed R1 fast rail link for the Gold Coast.  Shows clearly the problem with the existing southern line in terms of fast rail.



Credit:  Gazza RAIL Back On Track

Interview ABC Brisbane Radio Breakfast Hosts Craig Zonca and Loretta Ryan with Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track 1st November 2019

Fast Rail to the Gold Coast - R1

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abcbris_rd1nov19.mp3  MP3  12.2MB

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12393.msg229563#msg229563

[Gazza]

Example of how it would work in practice:

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1190054497839566848

[#Metro]

I think there is scope to put it in the innermost car lanes on the motorway and only transition to underground at stations.

[timh]

Example of how it would work in practice:

I think the biggest problem there is the bit about rising up or ducking under existing overpasses. Heavy rail requires such small gradients you'd struggle in some sections. Even that bit you've highlighted there, unless you started climbing well out to the south of that section to be above the existing overpass, then kept the station at that "double height" elevated level, I'm not sure how else you'd do it.

[Gazza]

Metro if you took that approach, you're spending extra money to retrofit in a working freeway environment and the cost of constructing underground station boxes.
And presumably they'd want to re-widen the freeway...I think taking away lanes without replacement would sink the project politically.

In Perth it only worked because the Kwinana Freeway was built with a massive median in the first place so much easier to build, and it was only about 6km of busway that was converted (From Canning Bridge to Como)

If you build the R1 the side along the service roads then you can have your construction vehicles on the service roads, which is less disruptive.

However through holland park, the median is so wide it could easily go there on that specific segment.

[Gazza]

Example of how it would work in practice:

I think the biggest problem there is the bit about rising up or ducking under existing overpasses. Heavy rail requires such small gradients you'd struggle in some sections. Even that bit you've highlighted there, unless you started climbing well out to the south of that section to be above the existing overpass, then kept the station at that "double height" elevated level, I'm not sure how else you'd do it.

From what i can see, the problematic overpasses are at

Grandis St Loganholme
Mandew St Loganholme
Loganlea Rd
Watland St


For the Loganholme example, another option of course is just to move the station further north...

[#Metro]

Metro if you took that approach, you're spending extra money to retrofit in a working freeway environment and the cost of constructing underground station boxes.
And presumably they'd want to re-widen the freeway...I think taking away lanes without replacement would sink the project politically.

It could work either way. I'm glad you highlight that the obstacle to median running is political (can be changed) and not engineering.

Working freeways have works done on them all the time, it is routine. Clem 7 tunnel portal construction springs to mind.

Median running also solves the overpass issue.

[SurfRail]

I don't know that median running is a goer anywhere given the geometry.  You tunnel towards Boggo Rd using the median along the Greenslopes straight but outbound from there I don't see why you'd limit yourself to something that can't enable 160kph or better speeds.

Tunnelling more of the route might even be cheaper honestly.

[ozbob]

Rail Express --> Lobby group wants new fast rail option for Gold Coast

Public transport lobby group Rail Back on Track has suggested an elevated fast rail alternative to building a secondary motorway to the Gold Coast.

Rail Back on Track wants a 160km/h elevated rail line built along a section of the M1 between Beenleigh and the Cross River Rail at Dutton Park rather than the eight-lane Coomera Connection. The Queensland government last week confirmed it was in favour of building the Coomera Connection as a second M1 route to the Gold Coast

"Rail Back on Track fundamentally believes that if a massive 8 lane motorway is clogged and we are building a new one just a few kilometres away, we are at the point where fast rail between Brisbane and the Gold Coast is absolutely viable and a higher priority," said spokesperson Robert Dow.

"Will we be talking about a third M1 in another 20 years time when this new one inevitably fills up? Rail infrastructure can carry and move more people and caters to growth effortlessly. Take the Merivale Bridge, it has taken over 40 years to reach capacity!

The group proposes a new dedicated express route running directly along the M1 as a long term solution, believing it would slash travel times.

"Obviously, Cross River Rail remains the number one priority for the rail system, but we cannot lose momentum, sit on our hands, and ignore the next round of crucial rail system improvements," said Dow.

"A project such as this would indeed cost billions and wouldn't be complete until the late 2020s, but it offers a real, permanent solution for travel along the corridor than just continuing with the disruptive and unsustainable process of building more and more motorway lanes every few years," said Dow.

According to The Age, Transport Minister Mark Bailey responded saying that the M1 transport corridor was already used by buses and had a cycle route.

"Fast rail is expensive, so the Morrison federal government must be ready to significantly contribute to it if it is to happen," he said.

[Gazza]

Metro if you took that approach, you're spending extra money to retrofit in a working freeway environment and the cost of constructing underground station boxes.
And presumably they'd want to re-widen the freeway...I think taking away lanes without replacement would sink the project politically.

Working freeways have works done on them all the time, it is routine. Clem 7 tunnel portal construction springs to mind.

Median running also solves the overpass issue.

#Metro, the Clem 7 portal was like 1km of reconstruction and resumptions, not 30km worth.

I firmly believe that it would be cheaper, quicker and less disruptive to just build skyrail because you could do it all with a launched gantry construction method and not have to muck around with armies of traffic controllers on the motorway. It is well known that building "greenfield" is cheaper than working in an active environment.

[verbatim9]

ABC Brisbane--->Would you like to see high speed rail built between Brisbane and the Gold Coast?

Would you like to see high speed rail built between Brisbane and the Gold Coast?

Transport lobby group Rail Back on Track said it's the next sensible step to reduce congestion on the M1.

Tell us what you think

[verbatim9]

National Faster Rail Agency

https://www.nfra.gov.au/

Projects >> https://www.nfra.gov.au/projects

Don't forget Brisbane to Toowoomba as well. Business case starting early 2020.

Investment.infrastructure.gov.au----> Don't forget Brisbane to Toowoomba as well. Business case starting early 2020.

[kram0]

I think you should guide Tony with regards to his wording Bob, pretty ordinary research and wording in the below paragraph. He makes it sound like the line from the city to Beenleigh can only travel at a maximum speed of 50kph (not average). Also the current maximum speed on the GC line is 140kph.

'Rail Back on Track views the Gold Coast line as two sections: the slower Beenleigh line and the recently updated section from Helensvale to Southport (Gold Coast line), where trains can run up to 130km/h.

The line between Beenleigh and Dutton Park is limited to 50km/h, carries 20,000 passengers  combined in the morning and afternoon peaks, and is already the subject of Queensland government and Infrastructure Australia scrutiny.'

[ozbob]

He had the details.  They often make transcription errors.  We never get to see articles before they are published (nor should we). 

Just the way it goes .. bit like letters to the editor, they often change wording and not always right.

I was very clear on the interview.  I like live radio,  no chance to be editorialised ... 

[ozbob]

National Faster Rail Agency

https://www.nfra.gov.au/

Projects >> https://www.nfra.gov.au/projects

Don't forget Brisbane to Toowoomba as well. Business case starting early 2020.

Investment.infrastructure.gov.au----> Don't forget Brisbane to Toowoomba as well. Business case starting early 2020.

Yes, I mentioned both the Sunshine Coast (North Coast Connect) and Toowoomba  fast rail in the interview.

But I think you can all see the reality here.  For fast rail to work there has to be a route in and out of Brisbane that is suitable.  It is easy for politicians to say he wouldn't be great to have fast rail everywhere, but when you start to look at the options it soon adds up to big big dollars.

Sunshine Coast will have to use NWTC to have any chance.

Gold Coast, using the M3/M1 transport corridors is probably the best option.  The other option is a long tunnel, probably too expensive.

Toowoomba fast rail?  Very expensive for a new line from Brisbane to Ipswich and thence to Toowoomba.   My rough thinking is use the existing quad to Darra West and put in the third line that was planned for Darra West to Redbank, but extend to the inland freight corridor (Calvert) and use that corridor for a line up to Toowoomba.

[#Metro]

You know, with Regional Rapid Rail to the Gold Coast, you could construct the entire thing to be DOO or even automated for the much of its length.

Imagine that! That would reduce the operational costs for the line massively. That reduction in labour costs would need to be

properly factored in the project analysis, as would the time and labour cost savings from higher speed. (Higher speed --->

less worker time consumed ---> lower labour costs)

[JustSomeTrainGuy]

Based on DTMR's standards, R1 will no doubt be single track most of the way 

[ozbob]

You know, with Regional Rapid Rail to the Gold Coast, you could construct the entire thing to be DOO or even automated for the much of its length.

Imagine that! That would reduce the operational costs for the line massively. That reduction in labour costs would need to be

properly factored in the project analysis, as would the time and labour cost savings from higher speed. (Higher speed --->

less worker time consumed ---> lower labour costs)

R1 would be an extension of the ATO for Cross River Rail ( GoA 2: ATO used for all normal operations, with a driver present to supervise the corridor, manage station departures and to manage degraded operations).  The question then becomes what happens south of Beenleigh?  If the ATO (ETCS) is rolled out entirely on the line then DOO is a real possibility.

[#Metro]

Based on DTMR's standards, R1 will no doubt be single track most of the way 

^ Comment of the Week!

You should have saved it for April 1!

[#Metro]

Regional Rapid Rail Proposed Line Codes

R1 - Pacific Motorway Regional Rapid Rail Line (Gold Coast)

R2 - Bruce Highway Regional Rapid Rail Line (Sunshine Coast)

R3 - Ipswich Motorway Regional Rapid Rail Line (Ipswich, Toowoomba)

Use trains to fix up the roads

What are the relative merits of running trains in the motorway median/median lanes/ elevated for R2 and R3?

Coming to think of it, Spain has a network or Regional Rapid Rail lines coded this way. They run out of Barcelona, very fast and into the countryside.

[ozbob]

R3 is fine for Toowoomba.  No point using the Ippy Hwy, have the adjacent rail corridor that has the room.  No significant LXs either except between Ipswich and Calvert.

R2 would use the North West Transport Corridor, then essentially the existing alignment to Beerburrum then the new upgraded alignment north of that.  Be interesting to see what the North Coast Connect business case comes up with.

[Arnz]

Would be interesting what the North Coast Connect proposed corridor will be. 

The use of the NWTC (Trouts Road) would definitely be a lock, after the Trouts Road alignment would be interesting.  Will it use the existing NCL past Strathpine with 1-2 extra tracks, plus upgraded alignment between Beerburrum and the whole way to Nambour, or the North Coast Connect suggests the alignment continue up the Bruce Highway (with only 2 stops) before turning off onto the existing proposed CAMCOS alignment.

[Gazza]

If you were doing a fast rail service to the SC you'd build Trouts rd, complete the duplication to Landsborough, and then build Camcos.

You wouldn't bother making the line to Nambour a high speed service because the population is too low on that corridor

[timh]

If you were doing a fast rail service to the SC you'd build Trouts rd, complete the duplication to Landsborough, and then build Camcos.

You wouldn't bother making the line to Nambour a high speed service because the population is too low on that corridor

All the documentation I've seen basically points to this route. CAMCOS will branch off at Beerwah on the existing alignment, and rely on the duplicated SCL line south of there. Another reason why duplication of that corridor is such a necessity.

I think it would be ludicrous though to assume it's going to go citybound via Northgate. It would have to go via NWTC south of Strathpine.

[ozbob]

Gold Coast Bulletin --> Gold Coast fast rail: Coast to lobby for Japan's old bullet trains and tracks

Retired Japanaese bullet trains should be bought to become the new Brisbane to Gold Coast fast rail system under a bold proposal to decongest the M1.

MAYOR Tom Tate wants to speed up the Gold Coast-to-Brisbane fast-train proposal by buying retired - or "hand-me-down" - Japanese bullet trains and tracks.

The first fast-train journey between the Gold Coast and the state capital is at least a decade away as the State and Federal Governments work together on a business case.

But Cr Tate says time is of the essence and cheaper, faster methods should be considered to help with decongesting the Gold Coast's fast-growing roads.

He wants Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk to send him to Japan to make the pitch in person.

Cr Tate told the Bulletin a "hand-me-down" system, including the train stock and tracks would be less expensive than waiting another decade to build a slower train system.

"Countries which already have fast trains are going to be upgrading to the latest generation so I say, give us the hand-me-downs," he said.

"They'll have to do something with the existing bullet trains so we could go cap in hand because this would be perfect for the Gold Coast-to-Brisbane connection.

"The machine, the tracks, whatever they can give us, it would be a great running start.

In asking, we may even be given it as a goodwill gesture.

"If the state is too shy to ask, give me the nod and I'll go cap in hand or otherwise it will go somewhere else."

Cr Tate discussed the idea with Department of Transport and Main Roads director general Neil Scales late last month at a Gold Coast Central Chamber of Commerce transport forum.

Fast rail, which would slash the 74-minute trip between the Gold Coast and Brisbane to 32 minutes, is not expected to be a reality until at least the late 2020s.

A high-speed train network championed by the Federal Government in the lead up to this year's election would go up to 160km/h compared to an existing average of 69km/h - more than halving the trip time.

An $8 million business case has been committed to but serious talks will not begin until other rail projects, including the Cross-River Rail are completed in 2024.

State Government says its Cross River Rail will cut 15 minutes off Brisbane-Gold Coast travel and take 47,000 vehicles off the road.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey said Cr Tate's proposal was "colourful" but the government's focus remained on Cross-River Rail.

"Cross River Rail is the big priority which will bring faster rail to the Gold Coast," he said.

"Cr Tate's suggestions are colourful and they will provoke debate.

"The reality is if we are going to do faster rail we have to straight up the tracks between Kuraby and Beenleigh.

"This is a very old line with lots of curves and there will need to be work done there."

Prime Minister Scott Morrison made an election pledge for a business case for a new fast rail line between the Gold Coast and the state's capital with an extension to Gold Coast Airport.

RAIL Back on Track's Robert Dow dismissed Cr Tate's idea, saying its cost would be unfeasible: "What he is talking about is high-speed rail and the cost would be considerable.

"What we need is a fast train which is compatible with the existing infrastructure and if we were to get the Japanese trains you wouldn't be able to have any stations. The cost of it would be just extraordinary."

[ozbob]

" ... State Government says its Cross River Rail will cut 15 minutes off Brisbane-Gold Coast travel
and take 47,000 vehicles off the road.  .... "

[#Metro]

Transport Minister Mark Bailey said Cr Tate's proposal was "colourful" but the government's focus remained on Cross-River Rail.

Cross River Rail is fully funded and is proceeding. The Department can look at scoping options for R1 and in addition to that it needs to do it

because it will form part of the Olympics bid where the IOC is happy to put in $2.5 billion for associated works. We're going to miss out on

including that in the funding mix if the skates are not put on.

I think it is good that Mayor Tom Tate and possibly the business chamber might come on board. The more allies the better.

When assessing the project the following benefits need to be included:

(a) Benefit from higher speed resulting in lower labour costs to produce +1 service

(b) Benefit from higher speed resulting in faster trip times for passengers

(c) Benefit from the separation of the GC and Beenleigh lines which might allow a 2-tier service on the Beenleigh line and higher frequency

(d) Benefit from DOO operation which will also act to lower the cost to produce +1 service

[timh]

Gold Coast Bulletin --> Gold Coast fast rail: Coast to lobby for Japan's old bullet trains and tracks

.

"The reality is if we are going to do faster rail we have to straight up the tracks between Kuraby and Beenleigh.

"This is a very old line with lots of curves and there will need to be work done there."
."

Tate's idea is a little far fetched and Bailey is right to be skepticsl in this instance I think. All sorts of problems in difference in gauge, voltage etc.

^that statement from Bailey there though gives the game away. Looks like the plan is to work on the existing rail corridor rather than make a new alignment...



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[#Metro]

Tate's idea is a little far fetched and Bailey is right to be skepticsl in this instance I think. All sorts of problems in difference in gauge, voltage etc.

^that statement from Bailey there though gives the game away. Looks like the plan is to work on the existing rail corridor rather than make a new alignment...

We can't blame Tom Tate for not knowing or understanding what or how rail works. The GC only discovered what a tram is and how

good it can be recently. Tom is motorist, he thinks the speed is set by the vehicle when it is really the station spacing that is limiting.

We should welcome Tom's enthusiasm. He would be a great advocate for R1 and especially so since the GC is on the SEQ Council of

Mayors who are pushing for the SEQ Olympics. R1 could be part of that.

[SurfRail]

I suspect Tate will most likely win the upcoming election so we do need to continue working with him.  He isn't the most articulate person to ever sit in the chair but compared to some of the alternatives he is easily the best option for progressing public transport generally.

[ozbob]

I don't have any real issues with Mayor Tate. 

Someone has probably whispered in his ear " Tom, I know where there are some cheap shinkansen high speed trains ... "   

There is a recognition though that something has to be done, and this is good.

The present state mob is scared witless about the costs.  The backlog on the existing rail network is one thing, let alone the further costs of fast rail.

The SEQ Council of Mayors is really on board for fast rail.  They understand it.

The key is going to be the North Coast Connect business case.  What they suggest and costings will probably help clarify what is really needed.

I had a long chat with the Bulletin reporter yesterday about R1.  They have all the stuff on R!, there may be a followup article on R1 yet.

The state is wrong if they think that the present alignment between Park Road and Beenleigh will suit fast rail, even with some upgrades.
Simply too many curves, and LXs to consider.

It irritates me when they say Cross River Rail will reduce Gold Coast journeys by 15 minutes.  How?  Three new stations will add at least 6 minutes to the present 32 minutes between Beenleigh and Varsity Lakes.  So they will have reduce the present 52 minutes between Brisbane and Beenleigh by around 22 minutes?  Not going to happen ...