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Author Topic: BNE Airport - new rail stations  (Read 8255 times)

Online ozbob

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BNE Airport - new rail stations
« on: August 17, 2016, 02:53:09 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Airport pushes for DFO train station

Quote
The Brisbane Airport Corporation has opened negotiations to build a third station on the Airtrain line to provide rail access to the DFO complex and other facilities in the Skygate precinct.

Facilities at the Skygate precinct, the airport's entry point at the south-western end of the site, also included a supermarket, a Novotel hotel, offices and a golf driving range.

The corporation's head of property development George Delibaltas said a train station at that location, which the elevated Airtrain directly passed, would open the precinct up to more customers.

Mr Delibaltas said discussions had taken place between the airport, Airtrain Holdings Limited and the state government about a potential new train station at the site.

"The infrastructure's there already, so it's not as huge a task as it could have been because most of the base structure's there," he said.

"It also will fuel the opportunity for the precinct to be a commercial office precinct.

"Access to train infrastructure is one of the main considerations for many office developments, so that'll fuel the office market we have out here at the moment."

Mr Delibaltas said a station would also be important for any future developments in the Skygate precinct, such as a cinema complex.

"It's also the interconnectivity with the terminals, because now we have a lot of people who might be waiting for an interchange flight finding their way down from the terminals in taxis, which is not an efficient way to do it," he said.

"They can get access straight on to the train, drop into there and then hop back on and get back to the terminal."

Mr Delibaltas said preliminary discussions had been held with Airtrain, the private company that ran the airport train line, about pushing ahead with the project.

"BAC's working more closely with Airtrain at the moment about how we can site position a station as Skygate precinct," he said.

"We're running a site and purposing study that will go until basically October.

"That'll inform locating the station's preferred location, how it'd operate and, obviously, all the other bits and pieces around it from a constructability point of view, so we can estimate a cost to deliver the preferred station."

But just who would pay for the station was yet to be determined.

"It's an operational thing, first and foremost, how it will function operationally," Mr Delibaltas said.

"The second thing is the cost, because that operational set-up will inform the cost and then there's the commercial arrangement, which has yet to be discussed."

An Airtrain spokesman confirmed discussions were underway, but "at this stage there is no announcement to be made".

A spokeswoman for Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe said he encouraged the BAC and Airtrain to continue with a detailed feasibility study or "pursue a market-led proposal with private investment to build a new station at Skygate".

But there were no guarantees passengers would only have to pay normal Translink zonal fares.

"Ultimately ticketing arrangements would be subject to outcomes from any detailed feasibility studies and a subsequent agreement between Airtrain and Translink," Mr Hinchliffe's spokeswoman said.

Mr Delibaltas said he could not answer whether passengers would have to pay the additional Airtrain surcharge if they used the proposed station.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2016, 06:04:49 AM »

If the rail line at that point is private, and the surrounding land is private, then the bill should be footed by Brisbane Airport Corporation.

Putting the cost on to the Gov't is privatising the profits and socialising the losses.

New station will raise land value in the area and make it more worthwhile to set up shop there.

How to pay for it? Introduce parking fee at DFO and perhaps use some of that parking revenue from cars at Brisbane Airport.

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Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2016, 07:19:11 AM »
I am not surprised it was talked about on this forum when the new cruise terminal was anounced and about a Buz to the Airport via the Northern Busway, Airportlink, DFO. I can see the importance of the DFO precinct having commercial signifigance.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 08:00:32 AM by verbatim9 »

Offline SurfRail

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2016, 09:10:56 AM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.
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Offline Derwan

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2016, 09:39:29 AM »
There was always a plan for a station at Skygate.  I remember seeing it in an old Refidex (as "planned" or "proposed" - or something like that).  It seems like a no-brainer - and given the massive expansion of Skygate over recent years, now is the time to do it.

The question will be whether the fare is a standard one or more expensive.  Obviously it SHOULD be a standard fare - or no one would use it.  The higher fare should only be charged to those going to the actual airport.
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Online ozbob

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2016, 09:44:32 AM »
Thanks Derwan, the voice of reason!  8)
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Offline James

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2016, 10:10:50 AM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.

^ this. I don't really mind whether they put in a station at Skygate or not, but the line must be duplicated. Without that you can never run more than 4tph on the Airport line, and even at 4tph a few delays can very easily put out the Airport line.

If the fare isn't a standard fare, the service will probably fall over due to the availability of bus services in the area. I hope the operators of the line are smart enough to see that.
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2016, 10:33:30 AM »
I would like to see that station integrated into the Translink network. Portland in the USA has LRT to the Airport with a similar set up as DFO but with a light rail station.
^^It would also be good to have a similar design to Sprinfield Central Station with a drop off zone and Bus Transit Transfer zone under the station for Translinks 590 and coaches etc....
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 12:38:39 PM by verbatim9 »

Offline kram0

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2016, 12:44:57 PM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.

The benefit would not justify the cost as they can run 15min services all day everyday if required. If the Heathrow express only runs every 15 mins at one of the worlds busiest airports, then I cannot see Brisbane needing more than this.

Offline tazzer9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2016, 01:42:26 PM »
If more stations were added, then the line would have to be duplicated until at least the DFO station.  The line won't ever see more than 4tph nor will it need to, but it needs some reliability and take some strain off timetabling conflicts further down on the network.  It is only going to be privately owned for another 15 years anyway, start planning now.

A toombul station and a DFO station would be good additions to the network.  Fares would need to be standard.  (could negotiate some extra fee the government pays to airtrain, similar to how green square and mascot work)

Offline SurfRail

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2016, 02:01:29 PM »
I don't see the attraction in building a stop at Toombul.  It already has rail access, and it has good bus access to the DFO.  The issue is linking Skygate to the wider network, particularly as the airport precinct is going to start being developed rather heavily in the coming years.
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Offline kram0

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2016, 02:15:01 PM »
If more stations were added, then the line would have to be duplicated until at least the DFO station.  The line won't ever see more than 4tph nor will it need to, but it needs some reliability and take some strain off timetabling conflicts further down on the network.  It is only going to be privately owned for another 15 years anyway, start planning now.

A toombul station and a DFO station would be good additions to the network.  Fares would need to be standard.  (could negotiate some extra fee the government pays to airtrain, similar to how green square and mascot work)

The cross river rail has more chance of getting built then this line being duplicated. As you pointed out with only 15 years left in private hands the owner will not outlay the cash required when they have only recently started to turn a profit and the governement won't start anything that will benefit the private company as they simply don't need too or have the funds too even if they wanted too.

Any estimates on how much the construction costs of the station at Skygate would be? $5-7 mill?

Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2016, 03:19:53 PM »
If more stations were added, then the line would have to be duplicated until at least the DFO station.  The line won't ever see more than 4tph nor will it need to, but it needs some reliability and take some strain off timetabling conflicts further down on the network.  It is only going to be privately owned for another 15 years anyway, start planning now.

A toombul station and a DFO station would be good additions to the network.  Fares would need to be standard.  (could negotiate some extra fee the government pays to airtrain, similar to how green square and mascot work)
Yeah I reckon the line will be duplicated to the new station as well from Eagle Junction to DFO. As I see it some of the line there is already partially duplicated. It would only need another 1km max of duplication to the new station.

Offline #Metro

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2016, 04:15:04 PM »
I had no idea that the concession was going to run out so soon (15 years).

Does that mean we can finally get buses running to Brisbane Airport? Would be great to have some buses extend into the Aiport precinct.

Could cut a deal. BAC and Airtrain allows TransLink buses into the Airport precinct, Queensland Gov't chips in a proportion of the station construction costs. Ownership reverts to gov't after the 15 year concession period.

A train station might have a useful life of say 40 years before needing replacement / major upgrade works. Could work it out proportionately (15 years / 40 years) x 100 = 0.37%.

Privates would pay say 40% of the cost, Gov't could make up the rest.

Issue would be with what fare would be charged and who would set it. Pax should not really be paying for it, its the surrounding landowner who benefits from the station's presence that should be chipping in.
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Offline kram0

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2016, 04:25:17 PM »
I have confirmed there are just over 19 years of private ownership remaining and at which point all infrastructure and ownership transfers to the QLD Government.

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2016, 05:09:16 PM »
Further to some above comments, I can't see Airtrain needing to run better than 15 minute frequency, and for the foreseeable future timetabling will be based around 15 minute cycles anyway.

Now, with an extra stop in each direction on a single track section, this will reduce operating margin on the single track section. Thus I doubt that the DFO station can be added without adding more duplication. The DFO station would seem like the obvious location for duplication!

Offline SurfRail

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2016, 05:22:53 PM »
They can do an el cheapo job with just a passing loop.

The platforms might need to be on a bit of a curve for it to be reasonably close to anything and not suspended out over Airport Drive - although they might be able to do an island platform with the existing track on a convex platform and the new track straight, which would still work with level boarding and sightlines (the curve isn't that dramatic).
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Offline petey3801

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2016, 05:27:12 PM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.

The benefit would not justify the cost as they can run 15min services all day everyday if required. If the Heathrow express only runs every 15 mins at one of the worlds busiest airports, then I cannot see Brisbane needing more than this.

Just as a slight nit-pick, Heathrow is also served by the Underground at quite good frequencies.
Agree though that BNE won't need better than 15min serices in the foreseeable future. Main reason for duplicating part of the line would be for redundancy if a new station was added at DFO, as it would very much reduce any flexibility if there wasn't any extra duplication.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2016, 05:28:40 PM »
I was also looking at whether it could conceivably be a good park and ride and if that could offset cost, but I suspect not.  Despite being sandwiched between a bunch of motorways, the accessibility by road is not brilliant - plus there are only so many train paths (until CRR is built) and they need to be used elsewhere.
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Offline kram0

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2016, 05:58:37 PM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.

The benefit would not justify the cost as they can run 15min services all day everyday if required. If the Heathrow express only runs every 15 mins at one of the worlds busiest airports, then I cannot see Brisbane needing more than this.

Just as a slight nit-pick, Heathrow is also served by the Underground at quite good frequencies.
Agree though that BNE won't need better than 15min serices in the foreseeable future. Main reason for duplicating part of the line would be for redundancy if a new station was added at DFO, as it would very much reduce any flexibility if there wasn't any extra duplication.

As someone who flys through Heathrow at least 3 times a year I am aware Heathrow is also served by the underground, however Heathrow also serves 80 + million passengers a year, with a high numbers of passengers arriving by public transport. BNE currently serves 24 million passengers a year with 90% of BNE's passengers arriving by car.

While duplication should be done for future flexibility, with the state of finances in QLD, I cannot see this happening until 2030.

Offline red dragin

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2016, 06:02:49 PM »
They can do an el cheapo job with just a passing loop.

The platforms might need to be on a bit of a curve for it to be reasonably close to anything and not suspended out over Airport Drive - although they might be able to do an island platform with the existing track on a convex platform and the new track straight, which would still work with level boarding and sightlines (the curve isn't that dramatic).

Most likely option I reckon. Build a second section, cut into the top edge of the existing viaduct, one straight platform, one curved.

The section next to Novotel looks like the spot, with the second track on the DFO side of the existing line.

Offline tazzer9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2016, 06:12:24 PM »
I think there should be toombul station due to the reduced frequencies that toombul is going to receive very soon.  And with an bridge over the east-west arterial, it would serve the area surrounding aviation high.  DFO station is heavily needed.   
Duplicate another 2km of the rail line until DFO and you will have no issues.   I still believe they need to do the exact same thing for the doomben line.  (duplicate to clayfield).  There are simply too many conflicts along the northern subs and branches.  They messed up by building the airport line without a grade separated junction.

Offline Derwan

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2016, 08:09:32 PM »
I think there should be toombul station due to the reduced frequencies that toombul is going to receive very soon.  And with an bridge over the east-west arterial, it would serve the area surrounding aviation high.

I don't think it warrants the construction of an elevated station less than half a kilometer away from an existing station.  If patronage was that high, they could simply have Petrie/Caboolture trains stopping at Toombul.  That would certainly be cheaper!
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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2016, 08:31:40 PM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.

The benefit would not justify the cost as they can run 15min services all day everyday if required. If the Heathrow express only runs every 15 mins at one of the worlds busiest airports, then I cannot see Brisbane needing more than this.

Just as a slight nit-pick, Heathrow is also served by the Underground at quite good frequencies.
Agree though that BNE won't need better than 15min serices in the foreseeable future. Main reason for duplicating part of the line would be for redundancy if a new station was added at DFO, as it would very much reduce any flexibility if there wasn't any extra duplication.

The Piccadilly Line only has 10 minute frequencies to each Heathrow branch, so not much better, and takes bloody ages to get there!

Offline kram0

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2016, 09:03:26 PM »
What they should do is properly duplicate the line from the mainline junction to International to eliminate the timetabling constraints.

The benefit would not justify the cost as they can run 15min services all day everyday if required. If the Heathrow express only runs every 15 mins at one of the worlds busiest airports, then I cannot see Brisbane needing more than this.

Just as a slight nit-pick, Heathrow is also served by the Underground at quite good frequencies.
Agree though that BNE won't need better than 15min serices in the foreseeable future. Main reason for duplicating part of the line would be for redundancy if a new station was added at DFO, as it would very much reduce any flexibility if there wasn't any extra duplication.

The Piccadilly Line only has 10 minute frequencies to each Heathrow branch, so not much better, and takes bloody ages to get there!

Agree it does take for ages and is not passenger friendly at all. The £20 is worth it with the speed and convenience of the Heathrow Express.

Offline petey3801

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2016, 02:17:56 AM »
True re: Pic line and speed etc., however it all adds frequencies and options, which was solely what I was saying (ie: Not only served by the 15min frequency Heathrow Exp). Pic line serves a purpose depending on where one is traveling and on what budget.
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Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2016, 08:13:02 AM »
^^Brisbane is not London should be comparing with cities like Seattle, Portland, Vancouver Sandiego (Los Angeles area wise)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 09:05:35 AM by verbatim9 »

Offline aldonius

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2016, 03:14:00 PM »
Question: is there ever (at least in the next ~30 years) going to be call for more than 4 TPH on the Airport line? If not, than a decently sized passing loop associated with the new station ought to be plenty of infrastructural margin.

SurfRail does have a point about timetabling constraints. It's a 15 minute round trip Eagle Jn to BNE Intl which means Airport trains at 4TPH always have to cross at both those stations. This means that if you as the timetabler give a certain northbound slot to the Airport train, you immediately know a certain southbound slot must be taken by the ex-Airport train, no ifs or buts. On a fully-duplicated line you don't have that restriction, you can put the opposite-direction service into a later slot by giving it an extra 3 or 6 minutes of dwell time.

Putting in the passing loop at least will give a second option for the timetablers, which ought to be enough.

Offline tazzer9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2016, 04:23:12 PM »
I thought we have learned why we don't have small passing loops for relatively busy passenger lines.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2016, 05:12:59 PM »
We have to deal with reality though.

I think the best likely outcome would be to have the line fully duplicated between a Skygate station and International, which leaves the bit between Skygate and the mainline single track.  Approvals and such will be a lot easier outbound of Skygate because you're in the airport's little bubble outside the planning system.  Inbound of Skygate would be more problematic and also more expensive given the distance, hydro and other issues. 
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Offline #Metro

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2016, 06:30:49 PM »

How much is Brisbane Airport Corporation and Airtrain going to put up for the station and works?

Remember it is a "private line", at least for a period of time. They want to minimise their contribution and maximise their benefits.

If we work off a 40% contribution from the privates, they could work out between themselves a ' fair ' split. Maybe 20% BAC and 20% Airtrain. BAC should probably pay more as even when the line reverts to public ownership, it will still benefit from the line hugely in the form of rents for the businesses there.

I think it should just be done properly. Dual track all the way. It means that you don't have to go back and through all the parliamentary processes, approvals and fund sourcing all over again.

If they want some money, they should look at a parking fee for DFOs car park.
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Offline kram0

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2016, 08:35:19 PM »
Agree with the above comments that it should be duplicated in full, but I cannot see even one section being duplicated as there would need to be an ROI, which is just not there for the 19 years of ownership that remain for the private company. Best outcome would be a passing loop at Skygate station, but I would not be surprised if it's just a one platform station, which would be a shame but is the reality of the current economic climate.

Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2016, 02:27:17 PM »
^^Any word of this progressing and of it being within the Translink Fare zone?

Offline aldonius

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2016, 03:49:01 PM »
None that I've heard. Not that I've been listening particularly closely.
I expect full status quo until it re-enters public hands.

I think if the service levels can get to a train every 15 minutes 7AM-7PM, and then 30 minutes or better from 5AM to midnight, that'll be good enough. I'm 95% sure we can do that with current track infrastructure, because we have Airtrains every 15 minutes at some times already.

Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2016, 03:50:19 PM »
There were rumours of having that station in the Translink Fare zone

Offline verbatim9

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2017, 04:58:12 PM »
I heard down the grape vine that an announcement for this station will coincide with final sign off of new cruise terminal?

Offline SteelPan

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 06:29:14 PM »
What an odd series of questions from people re the private funding....YES, the private sector funded the original A'port Line and Stations [you weren't expecting a QQquuueeennnsssllllaannndddd Govt to...were you? maybe by 2100 but DON'T hold your breath] - any "shopping" focused station, will [very likely] form part of the Translink Network and therefore, be publicly funded! ie, to get the shopping station will be a typical suburban train fare.....NOT an Airport Terminal Station Charge.

Be pleased the private sector put the line there in the first place or no further benefit would ever be possible.

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Offline petey3801

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 07:05:44 PM »
How is it an odd question? The station will be located on a private railway line. Depending on whether the government or Airtrain themselves build the station will likely determine (or at least be a determining factor) whether it is part of the Translink fare system or whether there will be a surcharge to use it.
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Offline SteelPan

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 07:18:02 PM »
How is it an odd question? The station will be located on a private railway line. Depending on whether the government or Airtrain themselves build the station will likely determine (or at least be a determining factor) whether it is part of the Translink fare system or whether there will be a surcharge to use it.

Outcome:
IF [as it will be] part of the Translink System, no rent is ever charged to the state for any station they build on it! The shopping complex wins with better shopper access to their centre, hence making the centre more valuable and desirable to existing and future tenants and the Translink system delivers on it duty of providing transport options to popular destinations.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: BNE Airport - new rail stations
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2017, 09:05:38 PM »
Sources, quotes, references?
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