Airtrain

[timh]

It's also hard to compare our Airport line against Sydney's. Sydney's through-runs to the suburbs, and also includes stations in the very built up areas of Mascot and Green Square. Brisbane Airport line serves the Airport and not much else. To me, 4tph is perfectly acceptable for the foreseeable future so I don't think all this talk of duplication is necessary. There are much bigger fish to fry

Regarding SkyGate Station, I'd only support it if land uses around the station changed to be much denser.

However, I am a bit more interested in removing the flat junction. Yeah it'd be costly, but HTG haven't you spoken before about how the flat junction there can create serious reliability problems in the timetable? Or is that just the Doomben flat junction at EJ?

[#Metro]

How much would grade separation cost, and what similar examples do we have?

Regarding SkyGate Station, I'd only support it if land uses around the station changed to be much denser.

The need to have huge parking will be reduced with train access. In turn, the land freed up can then be put to more intensive uses.

[Gazza]

In Brisbane, we really only have Darra, Petrie and Bowen Hills.

It'll be a challenging job given the proximity of Toombul, Kedron Brook and adjacent properties. Looking at the run up distance of other junctions, I think you'd have to more or less abandon the first section of viaduct, and resume properties on the eastern side.

To me, 4tph is perfectly acceptable for the foreseeable future so I don't think all this talk of duplication is necessary. There are much bigger fish to fry

I would agree.
It's a low demand line.
Only has 2 stations.
There is nowhere to extend it (The Airport line in Perth will eventually extend from High Wycombe to Kenwick, Sydney has the whole T8 line to Macarthur)
Even in peak hour when its running 4tph already, there is plenty of spare seats.

Shorncliffe gets more pax so you'd probably grade sep that first right?

[timh]

Shorncliffe gets more pax so you'd probably grade sep that first right?

Ok so this is something I've wanted to know for sometime. Surely there isn't actually a conflicting move at Northgate right?

The left track pair takes all traffic through traffic to Virginia (platforms 3 and 4). The right track pair takes all traffic to Bindha (platforms 1 and 2). As far as I know, through services to the NCL never use platforms 1 and 2, so while there technically *is* a flat junction immediately north of Northgate station, it doesn't get used in regular service (as far as I'm aware), so grade separating Northgate junction shouldn't be necessary, right?

Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken!

[Jonno]

In Brisbane, we really only have Darra, Petrie and Bowen Hills.

It'll be a challenging job given the proximity of Toombul, Kedron Brook and adjacent properties. Looking at the run up distance of other junctions, I think you'd have to more or less abandon the first section of viaduct, and resume properties on the eastern side.

To me, 4tph is perfectly acceptable for the foreseeable future so I don't think all this talk of duplication is necessary. There are much bigger fish to fry

I would agree.
It's a low demand line.
Only has 2 stations.
There is nowhere to extend it (The Airport line in Perth will eventually extend from High Wycombe to Kenwick, Sydney has the whole T8 line to Macarthur)
Even in peak hour when its running 4tph already, there is plenty of spare seats.

Shorncliffe gets more pax so you'd probably grade sep that first right?

isn't that self-fulfilling. Low frequency equals "I'll just catch a cab" I catch train in Sydney because it's 100 times quicker and easier!

[Gazza]

15 min services aren't low frequency.

[SurfRail]

Assume a 15 minute headway from 5am to 11pm 7 days a week.  If every train is carrying 500 people (ie more or less fully seated load) on entering or leaving the junction at Toombul, you would be carrying the equivalent of the entire current passenger volume of the airport each year.  The train is not going to capture every trip, and passenger density obviously won't be that even.

The main factors disincentivising use at the moment are that the trip is too expensive and the timetable is not very good - not capacity.

[OzGamer]

Why would you spend money on duplication when the line as it is seems quite capable of supporting 4tph, which is all that is needed for a while yet I would think.

The line is already duplicated between the International and Domestic terminals.

maybe just maybe we want to match other leading cities with frequencies less than 15mins? Like Sydney?

I agree that should be the ultimate plan, but there are fifteen things I would do before that. Once services operate at least every fifteen minutes, seven days a week, until late in the evening on every line in the city you can start to think about expensive projects that improve it further. Just a question of priorities.

[Jonno]

Just remember the idea was to use the investment in duplication as an "in" to change the Airtrain relationship.

Certainly not a priority but a way to change the dynamics with Airtrain.

Could be better than just paying Airtrain out.

[#Metro]

Agree with Jonno. Could invest in a new station or duplication and then shorten the contract to end earlier accordingly.

Remember, if you want to buy out Airtrain, you will spend say $X million on essentially a legal change of title, with no actual improvement of infrastructure.

[JimmyP]

But in reality, the infrastructure doesn't need improvement, it's the service price and all day frequency that needs improvement. 15min service for a line that serves purely the airport is enough for many, many years to come.

[timh]

Just remember the idea was to use the investment in duplication as an "in" to change the Airtrain relationship.

Certainly not a priority but a way to change the dynamics with Airtrain.

Could be better than just paying Airtrain out.

I don't think Airtrain *want* duplication though. What benefit does it have for them? There's very little chance they're going to run greater than 4tph (as Surfrail pointed out), so what's the point for them?

Controversial opinion but if you wanted to bribe them with something other than cash, then the state footing the bill for SkyGate station would probably have more merit for AirTrain and BAC than duplication!

[HappyTrainGuy]

However, I am a bit more interested in removing the flat junction. Yeah it'd be costly, but HTG haven't you spoken before about how the flat junction there can create serious reliability problems in the timetable? Or is that just the Doomben flat junction at EJ?

Doomben is the major bottleneck that triggers other lines. One late citybound service blocks the entire up/down sub. You can hold an outbound airport service on the spur clear of the subs. Doomben you can't so the outbound service holds at P2 until the Doomben line is clear or it gets cancelled and turns around at Zillmere/Northgate. Off peak the manly/Canon Hill service holds at Toombul as the services cross.

Shorncliffe gets more pax so you'd probably grade sep that first right?

Ok so this is something I've wanted to know for sometime. Surely there isn't actually a conflicting move at Northgate right?

The left track pair takes all traffic through traffic to Virginia (platforms 3 and 4). The right track pair takes all traffic to Bindha (platforms 1 and 2). As far as I know, through services to the NCL never use platforms 1 and 2, so while there technically *is* a flat junction immediately north of Northgate station, it doesn't get used in regular service (as far as I'm aware), so grade separating Northgate junction shouldn't be necessary, right?

Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken!

Short answer? It depends As there is quite a lot of bi-di setup various patterns are run. At various times it's not uncommon to have Cleveland on P1/Springfield P2 and at Nundah Northgate/Shorncliffe P2. Similar moves still happen in peak. Northgate terminators on the subs will dead run back to Bowen Hills via the mains. Its also not an uncommon sight to see Shorncliffe-Cleveland using P2 with an out of service train on P1 or in peak you can have a terminating train on P2 waiting for clearance to run onto the NCL while the outbound Shorncliffe service will use P1. While it's meant to be "sectorised" train control will run the network however they see fit which includes routing Shorncliffe-Cleveland services via Central P5-P6 in morning peak.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Re grade seperation at Toombul. Not pretty but you need to shut down the airport spur. Resume the houses to the east from Kedron Brook to Junction road effectively. Build new bridges for the subs to wrap around the flyover. Get funky with geo technical services for Airport Link and existing infrastructure. Rebuild the airport spur probably to Widdop street if not further. You also have issues with the shopping centre management as you are leasing part of their property for the existing line. So not a cheap exercise.

[SurfRail]

I see only 2 real solutions to the Airtrain "problem".

1. The State pays out the operator earlier, by working out a suitable NPV payment so they get their return now upfront.

2. The State pays Airtrain shadow fares and contributes to running costs for an expanded timetable, so for passenger facing purposes the service becomes part of the normal network.

Airtrain won't care about any spending on the infrastructure.  Why would they?  Their interest is in a financial return, which they only get by selling tickets or if the State underwrites things.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Airtrain cost and service top priority for new Transport Minister $

Transport minister Bart Mellish has revealed he is preparing to meet with Airtrain operators amid an ongoing push to deliver more affordable and efficient public transport to the airport. ...

[verbatim9]

Hopefully, get a later finish and earlier starts, coupled together with bus services in between.

I hope Airtrain also gets a better deal out of it than it currently has too amid rumours.

[kram0]

Airtrain deserves it too. They took the gamble to build something not knowing the bad would happen (covid) or the good Olympics. That's the risk of business. I don't know why they are being made out to be the bad guys.

Yes it's expensive, but so it Heathrow Express and Sydney Airport trains.

[#Metro]

Brisbane Airport is expanding its multi-level car park at about $52,941 per space.

Brisbane airport free waiting zone to make way for new car park

Cameron Atfield
By Cameron Atfield
February 23, 2024 — 9.00am

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/brisbane-airport-free-waiting-zone-to-make-way-for-new-car-park-20240222-p5f74t.html

[verbatim9]

The Airtrain Guarantee

[HappyTrainGuy]

They've had that since they opened. See station staff who will organise you a taxi if there is a delay. Your train also has to arrive at the terminal about 2 hours before your flight departure.