What form should inner city rail take in Brisbane in the near term

[Gazza]

Snap poll, as above. Basically, what form do you feel the next rail project in Brisbane should take? If you had to pick one major project to proceed with in the near future.

[Derwan]

Trouts Rd would be nice, but I don't think it'll happen at the same time.  Definitely need the spurs off of CRR as originally planned.  That was one of BAT's big issues.

Metro should be planned as a completely separate route.  It's pointless running two modes in the same tunnel and therefore servicing the same stations.  That was also one of BAT's big issues.

[SurfRail]

I voted for Trouts Rd but I would be happy with just to the Ekka loop.

The issue with a station at Ekka is that it would either end up with drastically lower levels of service once Trouts Rd opens, or it would require services to run from north of Strathpine via the existing route just to keep it serviced.  As such, I would argue for:

- CRR but with no Ekka station
- provision for a more direct route to Trouts Rd than was originally contemplated (ie keep going straight north towards Kelvin Grove to provide a station at the Urban Village/QUT, rather than surfacing at Victoria Park and tunnelling down again in a big S-bend)
- making a start on Trouts Rd ASAP with the intention that once built, anything from north of Strathpine and south of the CRR southern portal would go via this route full time.

[Derwan]

I voted for Trouts Rd but I would be happy with just to the Ekka loop.

To me, both the votes for CRR only and the CRR+Trouts is a vote for CRR.  I think we'd all prefer Trouts Rd from the outset.

[petey3801]

I voted for CRR alone simply as it's the most achievable in the near term (with tunnel stubs for Trouts Rd, of course). However, I certainly wouldn't say no if they decided to do the CRR+Trouts Rd in one go, that's for sure!

[BrizCommuter]

CRR from southern portal to Roma St, with overrun/turnback tracks pointing in direction of Trouts Rd/Northwestern Transportation Corridor.
No Exhibition Line/Victoria Park portal.
No double-decking for metros, busways, cycleways, MAGLEVs, other foamy ideas.
Just build the bloody thing!

[petey3801]

Agree except for lack of northern connection. That was one of the major downfalls of BaT, lack of northern connection. It isn't just the Maryvale Bridge that is at/reaching capacity, the City (both north and southbound) is at capacity in peak too. CRR is about adding capacity on the northside just as much as it is on the southside.

[ozbob]

Absolutely, connection through on the Ekka loop to the North is essential.  Trouts is a long way away if ever.  Stubs fine but the original concept for CRR is what we need now!

[BrizCommuter]

Agree except for lack of northern connection. That was one of the major downfalls of BaT, lack of northern connection. It isn't just the Maryvale Bridge that is at/reaching capacity, the City (both north and southbound) is at capacity in peak too. CRR is about adding capacity on the northside just as much as it is on the southside.

Fine, but running CRR services via the Ekka Line has its issues.

Firstly, just having a CRR portal on the Ekka Line increases capacity from the North by 0%. To increase the capacity marginally, there will have to be significant (though relatively inexpensive) track layout changes between Mayne junction and Albion. This would allow services from the Mains  to run via the Ekka Line, services from the Suburbans could then run via the Mains through the CBD, and remaining services from the Suburbans (e.g. Ferny Grove) would continue running on the Suburbans through the CBD.

Also, as other services (e.g. freight, and out of service trains from Roma St) have to use the Ekka Line, then it would be unlikely that the Kippa-Ring and Caboolture/Sunshine Coast services could all run via the Ekka Line and tunnel. This would add multiple conflicting moves around Northgate, and possibly around Mayne depending on which services continue to use the suburbans. It will all get very messy and unreliable from an operational perspective.

Without Trouts Rd Line (and associated quad from it's junction to Lawton), there is still the limitation of three tracks between Lawton and Northgate. Thus even with all of the line switching to allow Caboolture/Sunshine Coast services to use CRR (above), the capacity from the North will only be able to be realistically increased by a handful of extra trains per hour. 

[verbatim9]

(HSR ready) Taking HSR in consideration. Making CRR a shared tunnel with HSR.

[petey3801]

The track layout changes etc around Mayne to Albion were included in the original CRR design. By memory, it actually connected the suburbans to the Ekka/CRR portal, but I could most certainly be wrong there. Also included a new Ekka station replacing the current 3 platform layout.

[ozbob]

The original concept for CRR did include track work for improved connections from the Ekka line to the Northern line.  It will allow more services, the main delays are through the core CBD section with the Merivale Bridge impacts.  Allows that to be bypassed and also provides some redundancy when the core CBD section goes turtle.

[ozbob]

^ posted over the top of you Petey!  Steam on ...

[BrizCommuter]

The track layout changes etc around Mayne to Albion were included in the original CRR design. By memory, it actually connected the suburbans to the Ekka/CRR portal, but I could most certainly be wrong there. Also included a new Ekka station replacing the current 3 platform layout.

CRR concept from ICRCS has connections with Suburbans via underground grade separation.
CRR Mk 1 had connections to Suburbans via elevated grade separation.
CRR Mk 2 (cut price) had connections to the Mains at grade.

[SurfRail]

I think the point would be that the Ekka connection does at least something for the northside in the short-term.  Longer term, it would just end up being a service connection or a way of running out of service trains to and form the yard in peak and left at that.  If Trouts Rd is opened, I would not want any trains from north of Strathpine using the existing route via Northgate except for the long distance services into the country platforms at Roma St.

[Derwan]

CRR Mk 2 (cut price) had connections to the Mains at grade.

The "cut price" version got that label from the LNP, suggesting that it had found a way to save money.  The reality was that CRR had moved to a staged development, with stage 1 having the connections at grade.

Even in the dying days of BaT, the project team had commenced work on the design of the grade separation at Bowen Hills.

[Derwan]

Can we please stop publishing media releases suggesting the metro could go in the CRR tunnel now?  No offence to LD, but it's clearly not what the majority here think is a good idea.

[SurfRail]

^ 

The internet is a big place.  People can start up their own blog to push for their own pet projects if they want.

[#Metro]

Can we please stop publishing media releases suggesting the metro could go in the CRR tunnel now?  No offence to LD, but it's clearly not what the majority here think is a good idea.

It is a legitimate option that should be investigated, and it has an engineering precedent. There is the San Francisco precedent, and there is the BaT precedent (though not a great one). Mentioning it does not take away from others making their own suggestions. If it is not viable, then that will show up in the report and investigations.

It has been marked as so:

Extract:

For the avoidance of all doubt, we are not suggesting that a combined CRR/Metro tunnel is the final solution or our preferred solution. We just want this option evaluated like the others.

Where there is a conflict between options, options should be presented to DTMR and left with them to decide.

[#Metro]

Precedent:

The Market Street Subway is a double-decker subway tunnel that carries Muni Metro and BART train traffic in San Francisco, California.[1][2] It runs under the length of Market Street between Embarcadero Station and Castro Street Station. The upper level is used by Muni Metro lines and the lower level is used by BART lines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_Street_Subway

Interesting observation: Nobody in San Francisco seemed to think it was a good idea to terminate the Muni Metro LRT lines at the BART station and get everyone to transfer to BART at this point.

There is no more duplication in this than there is "duplication" in the fact that Gold Coast/Cleveland/Beenleigh Trains all stop at Park Road-South Bank-South Brisbane -Roma St etc, or the fact that the busway stations at South Bank and South Brisbane duplicate rail etc.

This is just the geometrics of a circle and a city - things converge in the centre.

There is very little case for metro outside of the busway system. Nobody has yet demonstrated any alternative alignment anywhere that would reach 12 000 pphd during peak hours. The busway already achieves this and would support a metro *today* with 5 min frequency in peak hours already.

In any case, I am not concerned. Let TMR do their work, look at all options and make a decision. With costs approaching $1 BN / km for metro in Australia, I doubt any new metro will be built anywhere in Brisbane ever if the most expensive part - the tunnel through the CBD - is not set up with CRR.

[ozbob]

Can we please stop publishing media releases suggesting the metro could go in the CRR tunnel now? 

Err we have never done that.  We have simply said it needs to be considered along with everything else.  I doubt it will stack up.

It may surprise some that I had some very serious talks with engineers a few years ago now, about doing two double track (or four single) parallel Cross River Rail tunnels from ' Gabba to Roma St .  The thinking then was that there will probably only one opportunity to get in to do the tunnels and it would be sensible future proofing to do two/four (so quad track capable) even if only two tracks was used initially.  Not all is what it seems some times.

[ozbob]

As I have said a number of times now, Brisbane may well need a metro down the track but it is simply not needed now.

The Quirk thought bubble is aberrant nonsense.

Cross River Rail is essential - it activates the entire rail network and delivers a 'metro' capacity into and out of the CBD.

Meanwhile the State Govt is off to Canberra with their begging bowl for more roads and a football stadium.

Beyond a joke now  ... we are headlong to terminal transport failure. Governed by fools at all levels.

[James]

Can we please stop publishing media releases suggesting the metro could go in the CRR tunnel now?  No offence to LD, but it's clearly not what the majority here think is a good idea.

This is asking us what we'd prefer, assuming we were the Premier/transport minister. Quite frankly, if I were Premier, I would tell Quirk that the state won't co-operate in any way with the metro proposal (read: effectively sink the proposal) and proceed with CRR.

None of us are governing Qld (or Brisbane) though. It is worth suggesting alternatives, while at the same time saying the project is flawed. Other members are very much able to veto what goes out in MRs anyway.

[Gazza]

Yes, poll closes tonight and there's an overwhelming consensus among members that CRR is the way to go, or in a perfect world with more funding, doing it as a mega project inclusive of trouts rd.

In terms of alternatives we can suggest, the state should be just suggesting running CRR as a metro line anyway, with the Bondi Junction line being the closest example of this (Big bus interchange inclusive!)

Its very cheeky of BCC to come up with a proposal they don't want to expose themselves to fully funding, when they do have the capacity to fund it themselves.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I would not want any trains from north of Strathpine using the existing route via Northgate

Why? I'd highly consider sending Nambour/Caboolture trains via trouts road and Kippa Ring via northgate. Upgrade GC-SC to 9 car platforms. Build the new sunny coast line and progressively open it or at once. Run 9 car sets during peak hour before full time at which point should be 15 mins.

[BrizCommuter]

I would not want any trains from north of Strathpine using the existing route via Northgate

Why? I'd highly consider sending Nambour/Caboolture trains via trouts road and Kippa Ring via northgate. Upgrade GC-SC to 9 car platforms. Build the new sunny coast line and progressively open it or at once. Run 9 car sets during peak hour before full time at which point should be 15 mins.

To maximise network capacity increases you would want to split Caboolture and Kippa-Ring services between Trouts Rd and Northgate respectively. I covered this is my blog recently (BrizCommuter Rail Capacity Study). 3 tracks on Trouts Rd would allow Caboolture express services to overtake Trouts Rd local services in the peak direction at high frequency.

[tazzer9]

Why? I'd highly consider sending Nambour/Caboolture trains via trouts road and Kippa Ring via northgate. Upgrade GC-SC to 9 car platforms. Build the new sunny coast line and progressively open it or at once. Run 9 car sets during peak hour before full time at which point should be 15 mins.

To maximise network capacity increases you would want to split Caboolture and Kippa-Ring services between Trouts Rd and Northgate respectively. I covered this is my blog recently (BrizCommuter Rail Capacity Study). 3 tracks on Trouts Rd would allow Caboolture express services to overtake Trouts Rd local services in the peak direction at high frequency.

I thought we learned our lesson of why we need to have full quad over triplication.   The only triplication being done now is essentially a single track freight line with a double track passenger line.

[ozbob]

Interruption to bring you a short message;

North West Transport Corridor

>> http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Community-and-environment/Planning-for-the-future/Planned-transport-corridors/North-West-Transport-Corridor.aspx

[SurfRail]

I would not want any trains from north of Strathpine using the existing route via Northgate

Why? I'd highly consider sending Nambour/Caboolture trains via trouts road and Kippa Ring via northgate. Upgrade GC-SC to 9 car platforms. Build the new sunny coast line and progressively open it or at once. Run 9 car sets during peak hour before full time at which point should be 15 mins.

To maximise network capacity increases you would want to split Caboolture and Kippa-Ring services between Trouts Rd and Northgate respectively. I covered this is my blog recently (BrizCommuter Rail Capacity Study). 3 tracks on Trouts Rd would allow Caboolture express services to overtake Trouts Rd local services in the peak direction at high frequency.

Why would you even need expresses for Caboolture or Kippa-Ring with a Trouts Road line?

Trouts Road would have probably no more than 6 stops in the entire length - Kelvin Grove, Alderley, Everton Park, McDowall, Aspley, Bridgeman Downs - via a considerably superior alignment.  I fully expect that of those, Kelvin Grove and Alderley would be served by all trains anyway because one is an interchange and the other is in the CBD frame and a major destination in its own right (QUT).  The other stations are on a comparatively arrow straight alignment with reasonable distances in between.

I'd just run all Caboolture and Kippa-Ring trains all stations via Trouts Road.  That would still result in a considerably superior journey time from both locations and would drastically save capital outlay.  All you need is to accommodate a number of future train paths for the Sunshine Coast, which I would also have no problem running all stations inbound of Strathpine.

Petrie to Strathpine can be 4 tracks, mainly for the benefit of CAMCOS trains which can run express from Caboolture to Strathpine with a stop at Petrie.

Strathpine to Northgate would be another service merging with the Shorncliffe line and using the mains.  Airport, Doomben and Ferny Grove get the suburban tracks.

- No Albion-CRR connection required for normal operational use.
- No unnecessary track amplification.
- Faster travel time for all.
- Plenty of capacity for Trouts Rd to be a line-haul collector and alternative to the radial bus routes in ways the existing inner NCL never can due to poor station and road layout, improved by the higher all-day frequency.

The only issue I can see is that Kippa-ring trains would be 6-car sets initially, but I can see literally no reason why all of the Kippa-Ring platforms could not be extended to take 9-car trains.  The only real impediment I can see is the turnouts at Kippa-Ring, which might need to be moved a bit further from the platform and could be replaced with a scissor layout, and the signalling layout may need to change to accommodate the differing block lengths.  Petrie 1-3 are going to present much bigger problems than anywhere on the Kippa-Ring branch (including Petrie 4-5), and you'll need to do all of them to enable Caboolture and Sunshine Coast/Maroochydore trains to be 9-car.

[BrizCommuter]

Why? I'd highly consider sending Nambour/Caboolture trains via trouts road and Kippa Ring via northgate. Upgrade GC-SC to 9 car platforms. Build the new sunny coast line and progressively open it or at once. Run 9 car sets during peak hour before full time at which point should be 15 mins.

To maximise network capacity increases you would want to split Caboolture and Kippa-Ring services between Trouts Rd and Northgate respectively. I covered this is my blog recently (BrizCommuter Rail Capacity Study). 3 tracks on Trouts Rd would allow Caboolture express services to overtake Trouts Rd local services in the peak direction at high frequency.

I thought we learned our lesson of why we need to have full quad over triplication.   The only triplication being done now is essentially a single track freight line with a double track passenger line.

In the counter peak direction it would be possible to run 10 min frequencies for both local and expresses on one track. Thus 3 tracks would suffice, though 4 would allow for more operational flexibility.

[tazzer9]

Would trains that go through to the sunshine coast be stopping all trouts road stations.   
Stopping all stations for them wouldnt go down too well for commuters.   In the end, petrie to caboolture will one day see at least another track laid down. Sunshine coast trains will also be one day separated from things like caboolture line.  Should at least build it properly now, than have to build it in 20 years down the line at 4x the price.

[aldonius]

Coast express via Trouts is troublesome considering Caboolture & Kippa-Ring all-stoppers on two tracks.

Regarding timing, the figure to meet for Strathpine to Roma St all stops via Trouts Rd is 24 minutes. That's equivalent to the upcoming Caboolture express.

Skipping Everton Park, McDowall, Aspley & Bridgeman Downs brings a potential SC via TR express down to 18.5 minutes. That's a 5.5 minute delta and at ~3 minute headways would likely mean 2 additional train slots burnt per express.

That's not affordable with 8TPH from Caboolture and Kippa-Ring both. Not without extra tracks.

[BrizCommuter]

I would not want any trains from north of Strathpine using the existing route via Northgate

Why? I'd highly consider sending Nambour/Caboolture trains via trouts road and Kippa Ring via northgate. Upgrade GC-SC to 9 car platforms. Build the new sunny coast line and progressively open it or at once. Run 9 car sets during peak hour before full time at which point should be 15 mins.

To maximise network capacity increases you would want to split Caboolture and Kippa-Ring services between Trouts Rd and Northgate respectively. I covered this is my blog recently (BrizCommuter Rail Capacity Study). 3 tracks on Trouts Rd would allow Caboolture express services to overtake Trouts Rd local services in the peak direction at high frequency.

Why would you even need expresses for Caboolture or Kippa-Ring with a Trouts Road line?

Trouts Road would have probably no more than 6 stops in the entire length - Kelvin Grove, Alderley, Everton Park, McDowall, Aspley, Bridgeman Downs - via a considerably superior alignment.  I fully expect that of those, Kelvin Grove and Alderley would be served by all trains anyway because one is an interchange and the other is in the CBD frame and a major destination in its own right (QUT).  The other stations are on a comparatively arrow straight alignment with reasonable distances in between.

I'd just run all Caboolture and Kippa-Ring trains all stations via Trouts Road.  That would still result in a considerably superior journey time from both locations and would drastically save capital outlay.  All you need is to accommodate a number of future train paths for the Sunshine Coast, which I would also have no problem running all stations inbound of Strathpine.

Petrie to Strathpine can be 4 tracks, mainly for the benefit of CAMCOS trains which can run express from Caboolture to Strathpine with a stop at Petrie.

Strathpine to Northgate would be another service merging with the Shorncliffe line and using the mains.  Airport, Doomben and Ferny Grove get the suburban tracks.

- No Albion-CRR connection required for normal operational use.
- No unnecessary track amplification.
- Faster travel time for all.
- Plenty of capacity for Trouts Rd to be a line-haul collector and alternative to the radial bus routes in ways the existing inner NCL never can due to poor station and road layout, improved by the higher all-day frequency.

The only issue I can see is that Kippa-ring trains would be 6-car sets initially, but I can see literally no reason why all of the Kippa-Ring platforms could not be extended to take 9-car trains.  The only real impediment I can see is the turnouts at Kippa-Ring, which might need to be moved a bit further from the platform and could be replaced with a scissor layout, and the signalling layout may need to change to accommodate the differing block lengths.  Petrie 1-3 are going to present much bigger problems than anywhere on the Kippa-Ring branch (including Petrie 4-5), and you'll need to do all of them to enable Caboolture and Sunshine Coast/Maroochydore trains to be 9-car.

I would respectively disagree with sending all Caboolture/Sunshine Coast and Kippa-Ring services along Trouts Rd. Assuming 24tph max with ETCS, then by sending them both via Trouts Rd would increase capacity from 9tph to 12tph each. If they were split between Trouts Rd and via Northgate then they could have capacity increased from 9tph to 16tph each (assuming Shorncliffe and Trouts Rd locals ran at 8tph). The downside would be that services via Northgate would have to run all stations between Northgate and Eagle Junction again as they would share tracks with the Shorncliffe Line, and a 3rd track would be required along Trouts Rd. There would have to be 4 tracks between Trouts Rd/Caboolture Line junction (which would need to be grade separated) and Lawnton, and turnback sidings along this stretch for Trouts Rd locals.

[#Metro]

>> http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Community-and-environment/Planning-for-the-future/Planned-transport-corridors/North-West-Transport-Corridor.aspx

I clicked the link and it just sounds like 'Roads, Roads, Roads'. The thing should be Priority A Public Transport Corridor. Really need a term for this - Green Transit Corridor perhaps.

[tazzer9]

Trains via northgate would only have to stop all stations from eagle junction.   Shorncliffe trains use the subs from eagle junction and trains from strathpine use the mains.   Or both trains from shorncliffe and strathpine could both run express.   

[BrizCommuter]

Trains via northgate would only have to stop all stations from eagle junction.   Shorncliffe trains use the subs from eagle junction and trains from strathpine use the mains.   Or both trains from shorncliffe and strathpine could both run express.

Nope. If Caboolture trains went via Trouts Rd, then Kippa-Ring/Shorncliffe trains would run on the mains, and Airport, Doomben, Ferny Grove would run on the Suburbans. Otherwise there would be no capacity increase, defeating the purpose of spending $$$ on the Trouts Rd Line and CRR. This all services from Northgate on the Mains would have to run all stations.

[tazzer9]

Trains via northgate would only have to stop all stations from eagle junction.   Shorncliffe trains use the subs from eagle junction and trains from strathpine use the mains.   Or both trains from shorncliffe and strathpine could both run express.

Nope. If Caboolture trains went via Trouts Rd, then Kippa-Ring/Shorncliffe trains would run on the mains, and Airport, Doomben, Ferny Grove would run on the Suburbans. Otherwise there would be no capacity increase, defeating the purpose of spending $$$ on the Trouts Rd Line and CRR. This all services from Northgate on the Mains would have to run all stations.

Didn't phrase too well.   shorncliffe trains would travel on the subs from northgate until just south of toombul, then switch over to running on the mains.  It means they can still run express between certain stations.   Shorncliffe trains would still stop at nundah and toombul, while trains coming via the ncl at northgate just travel along the mains the entire way.  This leaves the option of the partial expresses open.   

Once you get rid of stuff off the suburban tracks You could also do a few clever things like make doomben trains become a shuttle to eagle junction with cross platform connections to the under utilised airport trains.

[ozbob]

>> http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Community-and-environment/Planning-for-the-future/Planned-transport-corridors/North-West-Transport-Corridor.aspx

I clicked the link and it just sounds like 'Roads, Roads, Roads'. The thing should be Priority A Public Transport Corridor. Really need a term for this - Green Transit Corridor perhaps.

Yope.  As I pointed out earlier ' Trouts Road Rail Options ' appears to be going nowhere ... at least according to TMR ...

BRT is included for the ' obligatory ' transit wash ... hey ho!

[HappyTrainGuy]

I like it how so many people have assumed that Caboolture will still be a terminus with the sunny coast line in operation. Plot twist. It won't be  If Landsborough every gets its duplication the current Caboolture services should be extended there. They've done that with the new timetables already.

Trains via northgate would only have to stop all stations from eagle junction.   Shorncliffe trains use the subs from eagle junction and trains from strathpine use the mains.   Or both trains from shorncliffe and strathpine could both run express.

Nope. If Caboolture trains went via Trouts Rd, then Kippa-Ring/Shorncliffe trains would run on the mains, and Airport, Doomben, Ferny Grove would run on the Suburbans. Otherwise there would be no capacity increase, defeating the purpose of spending $$$ on the Trouts Rd Line and CRR. This all services from Northgate on the Mains would have to run all stations.

If Kippa Ring and Sunny Coast services are using Trouts road and Strathpine is now a terminus for those northgate services then it must be all stops Strathpine-City. You will get sweet fa patronage to make express services worth wild.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Would trains that go through to the sunshine coast be stopping all trouts road stations.   
Stopping all stations for them wouldnt go down too well for commuters.   In the end, petrie to caboolture will one day see at least another track laid down. Sunshine coast trains will also be one day separated from things like caboolture line.  Should at least build it properly now, than have to build it in 20 years down the line at 4x the price.

I'd imagine:
All stops to Petrie.
Express to Strathpine.
All stops to cbd via trouts road.

Petrie 2-3 would be the only difficult station needed to be upgraded to allow 9 car trains but even that would be pretty easy (losing platform 3). Everything else is dead straight or there are plans to relocate existing stations ie Strathpine.