Airtrain

[Gazza]

I think the idea of a Skygate station is that it would support long term development in the area, eg new office developments, more retail etc.

It's a bit chicken and egg, so much of the site is surface level car parking and big box stores so probably doesnt justify a station.

If you want to develop it with more 7 storey buildings, it should have heavy rail access.

A lot of the station catchment is flood prone land that cannot be developed.

Why does this keep getting repeated mentions.

Rbot generally supports having mass transit access where possible.

[300LA]

Coming to think of it, there is no need for a SkyGate train station if the Airtrain is bought out. You can just run buses out of Toombul. Wouldn't that be nice?

Probably no need for a Brisbane Metro bus to the Airport either. BCC would probably run it on the busway then inside AirportLink into Airport drive. But...passengers from the CBD can just get the train in. We don't really need BCC to duplicate yet another train line.

Northern busway and northside passengers can then access both International and Domestic terminals with an extended Route 369 bus service, which connects to the busway at Kedron. This would be similar to how ordinary cross-town buses connect to Sydney and Melbourne Airports.

This seems so obvious, and yet CM & BCC keep banging on about extending the amazing 'metro' to the airport.

Running the Airtrain as part of the QR network, 4tph with standard fares would make a world of difference. (If you wanted to claw back some of the buy-back costs, you could look at zoning it as Zone 3.)

[SteelPan]

You're falling for one of the "traps" of public transit..."it's Serviced"...the more the merrier and not surprising Brisbane Airport will likely, in time, be serviced by multiple modes!

Some General Info below

[#Metro]

Just run a BCC bus, save $100 million. 

[Gazza]

Just run a BCC bus, save $100 million. 

Would a BCC bus achieve a 30-minute isochrome?

[ozbob]

Love your avatar SteelPan 

More buses to BNE will happen in time, but I hope the bi-artics are used to improve services north, east, and south first. 

I don't know if you all have noticed but BNE Airtrain often has number of train services cancelled, particularly in the morning peak.

Queensland Rail seem a bit cavalier at times with the service. This must be frustrating to Airtrain.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Love your avatar SteelPan 

More buses to BNE will happen in time, but I hope the bi-artics are used to improve services north, east, and south first. 

I don't know if you all have noticed but BNE Airtrain often has number of train services cancelled, particularly in the morning peak.

Queensland Rail seem a bit cavalier at times with the service. This must be frustrating to Airtrain.

A lot of the time it's due to the flat junctions. If the train is running late and misses its slot its game over and service cancelled due to the knock on effect that it has to the network. 1 delayed airport service delays the following shorncliffe/dead running service. It also delays the inbound service on the subs. The return airport service is delayed which then impacts the airport bound service cross at eagle junction and also delays the cross at Toombul. Since that original service is holding up another service to the airport at eagle junction the following outbound service on the subs are also delayed. 1 delayed airport service impacts 5 other services. That doesn't take into account the flat junction delays then created at Bowen hills with Ferny grove-city services which bumps up the impacted service totals.

[ozbob]

^ thanks HTG.  I suppose with the new sectorisation it might be a bit more reliable. 

Still, it is frustrating no doubt for Airtrain and its passengers.

The cause is usually not reported as the real issue, but some other reason prior too ...

Right on cue, this happens a lot in morning peaks ...

https://twitter.com/Translink_QLD/status/1593366508385730560

https://twitter.com/Translink_QLD/status/1593366972808536069

[HappyTrainGuy]

It's a yes and no problem that I hate. We see similar problems where there's a fault some where on the Caboolture line and trains are running up to 30 mins late in peak hour. Reality is one train was delayed 20 minutes at Caboolture at 6am and the rest of the line is unaffected but because that one train still hasn't terminated the entire line still shows as a major delay. It's just too vague.

In regards to this morning it could also be as simple as it had a minor fault at Helensvale or something and tripped a circuit breaker that needed attention which was fixed with no further issues but delayed enough that it missed its slot at Airport Junction. Yes a train fault resulted in it being cancelled but it was missing the airport junction slot that resulted in it being cancelled. Cleveland has a similar problem with park road where services are running a few mins late bypass stations so it arrives at park road on time to meet all the crosses otherwise you have the issue of park road-Bowen hills backing up which does happen from time to time with the occasional Roma Street terminator being stowed at P4 as a result to reduce the congestion.

[timh]

More reasons to eliminate the flat junction and build a flyover. A much higher priority than Skygate Station at the moment IMO

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/BrisAirtrain/status/1606164958466777088

[SteelPan]

Any update on the possible State Govt buyout of Airtrain? 

Personally, I reckon a snowball has more chance of achieving touchdown on the Sun....but I'm of [VERY] little faith, when it comes to the current Qld Govt!

I ever so much look forward to them proving me wrong - so long as any unlikely buyout price is not truly insane.....I don't expect to be proved wrong any time soon! 

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Times--->https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/airport-workers-forking-out-as-airtrain-fares-take-off-again-20230122-p5cel9.html


The best way to approach this is to have a networked solution.

Gold Glider to the terminals via Skygate until 00:30 Mon-Thu and 24/7 Weekends.

Later trains until midnight 7 days

Electric bus services running to and from the air terminals to the cruise terminal via Skygate on cruise days  (20 mins or better). Services contracted to BAC by Translink

[#Metro]

Workers are offered staff tickets that allow them to travel for seven days to the airport in the city's north but must renew them, if, for example, they work five days only.

The problem with 'Staff' is that many workers at Brisbane Airport are contracted agency casuals who are employed on an 'as needed' basis. This means they are not formally employed at Brisbane Airport (due to their ad hoc/casual nature). Their employer of record is the labour hire agency, and their general work location is thus not Brisbane Airport. They are not able to get a letter stating that they are a BNE Airport worker, and therefore do not get a discount.

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Times--->https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/airport-workers-forking-out-as-airtrain-fares-take-off-again-20230122-p5cel9.html


The best way to approach this is to have a networked solution.

Gold Glider to the terminals via Skygate until 00:30 Mon-Thu and 24/7 Weekends.

Later trains until midnight 7 days

Electric bus services running to and from the air terminals to the cruise terminal via Skygate on cruise days  (20 mins or better). Services contracted to BAC by Translink

and

Workers are offered staff tickets that allow them to travel for seven days to the airport in the city's north but must renew them, if, for example, they work five days only.

The problem with 'Staff' is that many workers at Brisbane Airport are contracted agency casuals who are employed on an 'as needed' basis. This means they are not formally employed at Brisbane Airport (due to their ad hoc/casual nature). Their employer of record is the labour hire agency, and their general work location is thus not Brisbane Airport. They are not able to get a letter stating that they are a BNE Airport worker, and therefore do not get a discount.

Thanks for highlighting the problem @Metro

Hence, the solution above to alleviate the burden on casual workers, while at the same providing an improved service to and from the airport precinct for the travelling public.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Airport workers forking out as Airtrain fares take off again

Brisbane Airport workers are being slugged up to $160 a month to travel to work on the Airtrain, and some have quit their jobs because they cannot afford fare increases.

Workers are offered staff tickets that allow them to travel for seven days to the airport in the city's north but must renew them, if, for example, they work five days only. ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

This is nothing new. Members have mentioned this previously. The airport also has a lot of split shifts. Work in the morning, go home during the day, return to work in the evening. Shifts can also start/end when pt is not even running. Since the airport is 24/7 and the bulk of freight is at night/early morning ground service shifts can overlap between passenger and cargo services. And depending on the day the freight/cargo side can be a massive difference eg 2 cargo flights on a Saturday but 20 flights on a Wednesday. Airport shifts aren't a universal standard and this changes depending on what your position is to what day it is. Even changes depending on your business. PT also isn't a valid means of transport or reliable means for the majority of these workers eg delays to international services/overtime/etc. Staff wearing airline uniforms also aren't always directly working for that business. Some might be but the bulk aren't directly employed by the airlines but contract these services out such as Qantas/Jetstar to providers such as Swissport and Dnata. Carbridge which is a Swissport company operates BAC buses. This is why industrial action can be a maze to sort out as some areas have no impact, others have reduced staff, some areas have no staff, domestic ops aren't affected but international ops are. A lot of these providers comp parking depending on their role or have areas assigned to them free of charge or discounted. Translink will not fund anything until the airtrain contract is bought out or until 2036. And that's ignoring all the other issues such as contracts, otp and other issues integrating into the Translink network etc etc.

[#Metro]

Any update on the possible State Govt buyout of Airtrain?

There are some odd narratives going around as to why the State Government 'cannot' subsidise Airtrain to run more services. Yet, the TransLink PT network already contains many private operators (ferry, buses, trams) who are paid fee-for-service. Adding more Airtrain services could take a similar approach.

In addition to this, the Queensland Government is in an excellent position to know the true costs of producing the train service. Why? Because Airtrain contracts Queensland Rail (a public operator) to provide the train services.

To add more services to the network, TransLink would simply pay Airtrain for additional trains to run to 'top up' the Airtrain timetable. These could be shuttles operated from Roma Street or perhaps somewhere else, such as Park Road. If you wanted to be really creative, possibly even Corinda.

Changing fares may or may not be included in such a package. The simplest action is to just plug the gaps in the Airtrain timetable with more trains and leave the fares unchanged.

 

[RowBro]

Is anyone arguing for more trains to the airport with the current fare? First step is to decrease the fares. No matter how often a train rocks up if it's cheaper to get a Taxi or Rideshare as a couple or family there is simply no reason to take it.

[#Metro]

Is anyone arguing for more trains to the airport with the current fare? First step is to decrease the fares. No matter how often a train rocks up if it's cheaper to get a Taxi or Rideshare as a couple or family there is simply no reason to take it.

Waiting time is penalised 2x in-vehicle time.

Adding more (air)trains to the network will thus have a similar effect on patronage as a major fare cut.

Whether the QLD Government wants to also provide a fare subsidy will be up to them (my hunch is they will not because $$$).

Ideal case is obviously to have the Perth situation, but the two options of more service and more service + fare cut are there.

[RowBro]

Is anyone arguing for more trains to the airport with the current fare? First step is to decrease the fares. No matter how often a train rocks up if it's cheaper to get a Taxi or Rideshare as a couple or family there is simply no reason to take it.

Waiting time is penalised 2x in-vehicle time.

Adding more (air)trains to the network will thus have a similar effect to a major fare cut.

Whether the QLD Government wants to also provide a fare subsidy will be up to them (my hunch is they will not because $$$).

I largely disagree. The fare for Airtrain is so exorbitant that it makes little viable sense to any passenger regardless of the time penalty. It will nearly always be faster to get a rideshare or taxi, and if that is cheaper for families and couples, which is currently is for a lot of Brisbane's suburbs, than no matter the frequency there is no reason to use it.

Sure, there may be an increase in passengers from further afield, but I don't think it will be large enough to warrant the cost when reducing the fares would be a much better investment. It's also important to remember that the further the travel distance, the less the waiting time actually eats into the journey, so for the customers which currently do use Airtrain and are travelling from Ipswich, Sunshine Coast Line, Gold Coast, etc, the frequency is of little concern.

[#Metro]

I largely disagree. The fare for Airtrain is so exorbitant that it makes little viable sense to any passenger regardless of the time penalty. It will nearly always be faster to get a rideshare or taxi, and if that is cheaper for families and couples, which is currently is for a lot of Brisbane's suburbs, than no matter the frequency there is no reason to use it.

Whatever one's view on this, it is important to set out that an increase in service due to subsidy payments does not automatically mean the fare will go down.

[Jonno]

Is anyone arguing for more trains to the airport with the current fare? First step is to decrease the fares. No matter how often a train rocks up if it's cheaper to get a Taxi or Rideshare as a couple or family there is simply no reason to take it.

Waiting time is penalised 2x in-vehicle time.

Adding more (air)trains to the network will thus have a similar effect on patronage as a major fare cut.

Whether the QLD Government wants to also provide a fare subsidy will be up to them (my hunch is they will not because $$$).

Ideal case is obviously to have the Perth situation, but the two options of more service and more service + fare cut are there.

more factless assumptions! Show me the peer reviewed research that shows this to be true. Not assumptions in a useless business case's Actual research

[#Metro]

more factless assumptions! Show me the peer reviewed research that shows this to be true. Not assumptions in a useless business case's Actual research

Sure, Jonno. Derived from ticketing data.
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15228.msg274702#msg274702

Public transport crowding valuation in a post-pandemic era
Menno Yap, Howard Wong & Oded Cats (2023)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11116-023-10420-1

Author affiliations:
1. Department of Transport and Planning, Delft University of Technology, Delft, The Netherlands.
2. Transport for London, London, UK.
3. Centre for Advanced Spatial Analysis, University College London, London, UK

Furthermore, we found a ratio between out-of-vehicle time and in-vehicle time of 1.94 pre-pandemic and of 1.92 post-pandemic, based on which we conclude that the relative waiting/walking time valuation did not significantly change since the COVID-19 pandemic.

This implies that on average passengers value one minute of out-of-vehicle (walking or waiting) time as almost two minutes of in-vehicle time. This is in line with findings from many previous studies on PT walking and waiting time valuation. For example, based on a meta-analysis Wardman (2004) shows that—despite varying with mode and journey length—waiting and walking time valuations are often centred around twice the value of in-vehicle time.

We also know from BUZ implementation in Brisbane that patronage doubles when service frequency is also doubled, which is consistent with this.

Back to the Airtrain frequencies - A key question is whether this situation will persist post-CRR?

Given that the Ipswich Line will be paired with the Airport Line, this suggests that half-hourly all-day train service to the Airport will likely continue.

[Gazza]

On weekdays at least, airtrain already runs 4tph for most of offpeak.

They literally only need an additional 6 services to plug those gaps.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You can not compare this to other public transport operators. Airtrain isn't part of the Translink network and the infrastructure that airtrain runs on ie the airport spur; isn't owned by the state so the state can't run or provide additional services.

Buz services does not mean a doubling of patronage (at least for the Northside) with a lot of the extra patronage being propped up by other corridors ie Gympie Road and Cultural Centre-RBWH (inner northern busway is a prime example of poor network design with crowded/slow dwelling 66 forcing others to jump onto non high capacity 330/333/340 buses which prevents those going to Chermside/beyond from actually boarding which can be resolved with extending 111 to RBWH. Having a 111 bendy bus empty at cultural centre and then all board the following 333 to go a couple extra stops is just a joke). Off peak and anti peak 330/340 still struggles for patronage north of Chermside.

And unfortunately those are still assumptions as you are comparing other networks and geographical areas that are fundamentally different.

[Jonno]

more factless assumptions! Show me the peer reviewed research that shows this to be true. Not assumptions in a useless business case's Actual research

Sure, Jonno. Derived from ticketing data.
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=15228.msg274702#msg274702

Public transport crowding valuation in a post-pandemic era
Menno Yap, Howard Wong & Oded Cats (2023)
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11116-023-10420-1

Author affiliations:
1. Department of Transport and Planning, Delft University of Technology, Delft, The Netherlands.
2. Transport for London, London, UK.
3. Centre for Advanced Spatial Analysis, University College London, London, UK

Furthermore, we found a ratio between out-of-vehicle time and in-vehicle time of 1.94 pre-pandemic and of 1.92 post-pandemic, based on which we conclude that the relative waiting/walking time valuation did not significantly change since the COVID-19 pandemic.

This implies that on average passengers value one minute of out-of-vehicle (walking or waiting) time as almost two minutes of in-vehicle time. This is in line with findings from many previous studies on PT walking and waiting time valuation. For example, based on a meta-analysis Wardman (2004) shows that—despite varying with mode and journey length—waiting and walking time valuations are often centred around twice the value of in-vehicle time.

We also know from BUZ implementation in Brisbane that patronage doubles when service frequency is also doubled, which is consistent with this.

Back to the Airtrain frequencies - A key question is whether this situation will persist post-CRR?

Given that the Ipswich Line will be paired with the Airport Line, this suggests that half-hourly all-day train service to the Airport will likely continue.

Having lived in a number of cities we all aspire Brisbane to be and without a car I have never focused on or calculated the wait time as different to the overall travel time.  The key is total time it takes to get to the destination then add in 100 other factors including I am going to the Octoberfest and there is no car parking! 

This is why frequency is king! 

[#Metro]

Jonno, it's an effect confirmed by both stated preference and revealed preference studies.

By relying on large-scale, empirical passenger demand data, we derive crowding valuations based on more than 20,000 observed passenger journey data in the London PT network, which is a much larger sample size than for typical SP studies and therefore results in more robust estimates.

[Gazza]

From the same paper:

We know from earlier SP research on a so called 'rail bonus' that passengers value in-vehicle time on rail modes 67–80% less negatively compared to in-vehicle time by bus due to a higher perceived comfort level and—for example—the ability to spend in-vehicle time in a more productive way by doing work

Cool so we know that passengers prefer the comfort of rail compared to bus.
Explains why it is worth spending more to have rail over BRT.

[Jonno]

Jonno, it's an effect confirmed by both stated preference and revealed preference studies.

By relying on large-scale, empirical passenger demand data, we derive crowding valuations based on more than 20,000 observed passenger journey data in the London PT network, which is a much larger sample size than for typical SP studies and therefore results in more robust estimates.

Thus using numbers to determine people's perceptions of time???  Lost me on that one.

[#Metro]

Thus using numbers to determine people's perceptions of time???  Lost me on that one.

IMO time here is being used as an instrument to explain patronage. It could just as well be expressed in terms of 'generalised' dollar costs, with longer waits being perceived as 'more expensive', and therefore patronage-reducing.

If an observable and reproducible change appears in the data, then that is what it is.

We certainly would not be in a position to put 1x in as the value as that would not fit the data, passenger experiences captured in stated preference surveys, and we have no evidence/reason to do so.

The author's e-mail is listed on the paper as well if you had further questions.
https://www.tudelft.nl/citg/over-faculteit/afdelingen/transport-planning/staff/persoonlijke-paginas/yap-md

 

[Gazza]

Yeah that sort of makes sense, but it's a real 'abstraction'

Like there are a number of factors that lead people to take PT. Speed, cost, cleanliness, safety, frequency, legibilty, vehicle type.

Clearly time and cost are the most convenient factors for researchers to use when studying PT.
But at the same time, we know that the other factors play their part. Just because you cant put them into a 'model' doesn't mean they don't exist.

But, It seems the authors are trying to equalize them by expressing them as equivalent to time.
You could probably use 'points' but that is too abstract.

For example, say a journey takes 10 mins, or it takes 20 mins.
The 20 min journey is less attractive.

If you had a route that took 10 mins, and you blew out the journey time to 20 mins, you would see a decline in patronage.

What they are saying in a ham fisted way I think is something like "making the wait time longer is as bad for passengers as making a 10 min journey take 20 mins.

You could probably use 'points' to talk about how attractive a pt journey might be but that is too abstract.

Perhaps waiting time feels 'worse' because you are sitting there idly, watching other cars go past, you want to get going but you are stuck there, so the feeling of wasting time is amplified.
You cant really do anything productive with the time like set up your laptop, and you need to be paying attention to the bus arriving. You might feel uncertain, the weather might be uncomfortable.

Once you are on the vehicle itself, things become better, you can settle down, there is aircon, you feel settled because you "are on your way". It's easier to be productive.

Anyhow, that's my take on why people behave the way they do.

Could also explain why people walk further to access HF services. You are increasing your access time (by walking 10 mins/800m instead of 5 mins/400m, but you do so because you are reducing your wait time

*****

IRL I have caught myself doing this.
In european cities often you'll get JP results that involve bus, or metro, in a few cases the metro was couple of mins longer than bus, but it still used the metro because i felt greater certainty with that option.

[verbatim9]

No gap boarding at Domestic Station

https://photos.app.goo.gl/94xdiw43YkJN7TMS6

[verbatim9]

Looks like buying out Airtrain has been unsuccessful and will stay in private hands.

Despite this news, I reckon the return free deal is quite reasonable.

This is also an opportunity to run the Gold Glider to Skygate to interchange with BAC air terminal electric buses and potentially to the cruise terminal as well.

Hopefully, BAC will also commit to the new Skygate train station This can also help safely increase capacity/frequency, as it would act as a passing loop.

Source  (Courier Mail, 2023)

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Future Brisbane: Airtrain the only airport mass transit for 2032 Games $

The only mass public transport to and from Brisbane Airport during the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games will be the Airtrain, due to an exclusive deal with operators.

The only mass public transport to and from Brisbane Airport during the 2032 Olympic and Paralympic Games will be the Airtrain, due to an exclusive deal with operators.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey has confirmed negotiations to potentially cut short the 35-year contract – which prohibits public buses being run to either the domestic or international terminal – have broken down.

It also poses a problem for Brisbane Airport as it gets ready to expand its workforce from 20,000 to 30,000 employees in time for the Games.

"TMR (Transport and Main Roads) and the owners of Airtrain CityLink are no longer in discussions about incorporating airport services into the Translink network," Mr Bailey said. ...

[ozbob]

There is more to this no doubt.  The fact the the SEQ Rail Connect breaks the BNE - Gold Coast direct connection has a bit to do with it IMHO.  Airtrain has probably taken the view, stuff us, we will stuff you.  If the compensation payment was high enough Airtrain would accede. They want more moolah!!

Airtrain is in the right here.  It was a Liberal/National Government that set up the BOOT with the restrictive conditions and Labor followed on.

You know what?  You make your fuking bed, now lie in it you fukwits!!!

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Editorial: Dud Airtrain deal holding Queensland back $

A deal struck in 1998 by Queensland's then Coalition government has had far-reaching effects on the state's growth, writes the editor.

... One is the contract the Borbidge state government signed in 1998 with the Airtrain operators, banning any competition in the form of buses operating out of the domestic or international terminals until 2036.

It was a bad deal then and a worse one now, especially as the airport – now dealing with 20 million passengers a year – will have to cope with 30 million a year by 2032. The workforce at the airport is tipped to increase at a similar rate.

And with fares at around $20 each for the short trip to Central, larger groups are already shunning the train for taxis and Ubers. ...

Front Page Couriermail 20th November 2023

[HappyTrainGuy]

The state was never going to do anything. Airtrain backers know they have the state backed into a corner and legally have a monopoly on any PT service in the airport area. They can make an absolute fortune out of it. Buses also means there's more setting up with BAC in terms of layover and drop off/pickup, congestion and staff. BAC will want some money which would cut into Airtrains profits. They know trains are the way to move people quickly and requires minimal additional staff so they will hold onto that. The line can operate quite frequently and it's not out of the realm of running domestic and international terminators with crews based there for quick turn arounds. Being the Olympic host city Airtrain also knows the state won't shaft them on services as it will reflect bad on the state.

This is also an opportunity to run the Gold Glider to Skygate to interchange with BAC air terminal electric buses and potentially to the cruise terminal as well.

Hopefully, BAC will also commit to the new Skygate train station This can also help safely increase capacity/frequency, as it would act as a passing loop.

Source  (Courier Mail, 2023)

Doubt any of that. From what I have been told Translink already pays Airtrain running services via Skygate as it falls within the BAC area. BAC doesn't own Airtrain. There is no need for BAC to build a station at Skygate nor is there a need for Airtrain to build a station there. Most mentions of Skygate stations are based on the state government paying for it once they own it again. Patronage also doesn't support a station there.

[verbatim9]

Couriermail --> Editorial: Dud Airtrain deal holding Queensland back $

A deal struck in 1998 by Queensland's then Coalition government has had far-reaching effects on the state's growth, writes the editor.

... One is the contract the Borbidge state government signed in 1998 with the Airtrain operators, banning any competition in the form of buses operating out of the domestic or international terminals until 2036.

It was a bad deal then and a worse one now, especially as the airport – now dealing with 20 million passengers a year – will have to cope with 30 million a year by 2032. The workforce at the airport is tipped to increase at a similar rate.

And with fares at around $20 each for the short trip to Central, larger groups are already shunning the train for taxis and Ubers. ...

Front Page Couriermail 20th November 2023

Yep, the only way forward is to run the Gold Glider to Skygate along with the 590.

Maybe initially run the Gold Glider to Skygate from 5am - 9pm everyday. Outside those times have it turnaround at Hamilton Northshore.

Negotiate with BAC to extend the terminal connection service from 6 pm to 9 pm. This can allow the budget conscious to choose an alternative. It can also fill transport black spots and improve travel times for people living at Teneriffe, Albion East and Hamilton.

^^It's not all doom and gloom, there are always solutions to be had.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Can I ask what's everyone's obsession with a Skygate glyder. DFO shops open at 10am. The shops out near the highway are 9-10. Only Woolworths is 24 hours. Workers are casual/labour hire/shift. The airport shuttles aren't frequent. Why does Skygate deserve all these high frequency route proposals for peak hour yet the place is closed.

And there's a reason why people drive. It's not just cost. It's time and convenience. And it's dependent where you are coming from. The same applies to any transport method. Even going to the city/southbank with a large group. Becomes cost effective for motor vehicle usage versus using pt.