Airtrain

[somebody]

The stopping between stations bit isn't Airtrain's fault.  It's QR's inability to write a decent timetable!

[colinw]

The stopping between stations bit isn't Airtrain's fault.  It's QR's inability to write a decent timetable!

You're right of course, but my co-workers neither know nor care about that.  To them a crap service is a crap service, and they are not going to use it.

The only two regular Airtrain users I know here are both European and from cities with strong public transport cultures.  Both of them continue to use public transport heavily, the whole time complaining about how inferior it is compared to the offerings in their countries of origin.

The Aussie majority here of course just drives.

[#Metro]

The last 40 years in PT patronage downturn explained in one sentence: If you sell rotten apples, DON'T EXPECT MANY CUSTOMERS.

[petey3801]

So it isn't just me, the train ALWAYS stops between stations?
Ridiculous!

Must be the same class of 'Express' as the buses going down Coro drive...

No, it DOESN'T ALWAYS stop between stations. In fact, when i've been on the Airport run, a good 90-odd percent of the time the train has been running on green signals the majority of the way to/from Bowen Hills! In the centre of peak it may be a different story of course due to the large number of trains on track, but most of the time, the Airtrains get a pretty decent run...

[BrizCommuter]

Personally, IMHO there is a real chance Airtrain will go bankrupt with Airport Link. Sorry to say it but it could well jeopardise their operations. 

Personally, IMHO Airport Link is more likely to go bankrupt than Airtrain.

[Golliwog]

So it isn't just me, the train ALWAYS stops between stations?
Ridiculous!

Must be the same class of 'Express' as the buses going down Coro drive...

No, it DOESN'T ALWAYS stop between stations. In fact, when i've been on the Airport run, a good 90-odd percent of the time the train has been running on green signals the majority of the way to/from Bowen Hills! In the centre of peak it may be a different story of course due to the large number of trains on track, but most of the time, the Airtrains get a pretty decent run...

I would think that woudl be the case. Its a known that people talk more about the negatives that happen (ie: trains stopping and starting) than the positives of a train running to timetable. Its annoying but its the truth.

[#Metro]

I went to the Airport (I think it was a Saturday) and it stopped between stations.
On the return journey, the same thing happened. Other people are reporting this too, Colin W's work colleagues appear to have experienced it as well.

[somebody]

So it isn't just me, the train ALWAYS stops between stations?
Ridiculous!

Must be the same class of 'Express' as the buses going down Coro drive...

No, it DOESN'T ALWAYS stop between stations. In fact, when i've been on the Airport run, a good 90-odd percent of the time the train has been running on green signals the majority of the way to/from Bowen Hills! In the centre of peak it may be a different story of course due to the large number of trains on track, but most of the time, the Airtrains get a pretty decent run...

That may be, but running on greens doesn't make it an adequately fast timetable.  And peak hour isn't really an excuse for timetabled red signals.

I remember one time that I was heading from the Airtrain to the Ipswich line, and I figured the best place to change would be Central.  Wretched Ipswich train passed us between FV & BH IIRC.  Now, I change at Bowen Hills.  Are the mains really faster than the suburbans?

[petey3801]

So it isn't just me, the train ALWAYS stops between stations?
Ridiculous!

Must be the same class of 'Express' as the buses going down Coro drive...

No, it DOESN'T ALWAYS stop between stations. In fact, when i've been on the Airport run, a good 90-odd percent of the time the train has been running on green signals the majority of the way to/from Bowen Hills! In the centre of peak it may be a different story of course due to the large number of trains on track, but most of the time, the Airtrains get a pretty decent run...

That may be, but running on greens doesn't make it an adequately fast timetable.  And peak hour isn't really an excuse for timetabled red signals.

I remember one time that I was heading from the Airtrain to the Ipswich line, and I figured the best place to change would be Central.  Wretched Ipswich train passed us between FV & BH IIRC.  Now, I change at Bowen Hills.  Are the mains really faster than the suburbans?

Not timetabled red signals, no. However, with the high amount of trains running, it only takes one or two to run a couple minutes late (or not have enough time in the timetable to make the run) for other trains (ie: Airtrain) to be delayed. I never said it was an adequately fast timetable either, I just stated the trains don't ALWAYS stop between stations, it's much less often than what people on here would make one believe.

As for the Mains being faster than the Suburbans, Yes, they are. Between Bowen Hills and Roma Street, the Mains are quite a lot faster than the Suburbans.

[somebody]

As for the Mains being faster than the Suburbans, Yes, they are. Between Bowen Hills and Roma Street, the Mains are quite a lot faster than the Suburbans.

Thanks, that is interesting.

[mufreight]

Personally, IMHO there is a real chance Airtrain will go bankrupt with Airport Link. Sorry to say it but it could well jeopardise their operations. 

Personally, IMHO Airport Link is more likely to go bankrupt than Airtrain.

Well consider the probability that they will both go broke, in the case of Airtrain quite a possibility the probability of which will increase if the Government rectifies the wrort with the fare structure where passengers pay a surcharge which goes to Airtrain for the portion of their journey not over the Airtrain operated section of their journey.  Of course Minister Nolan was going to "Look into this fare structure anomoly" but it was another of those mirror, mirror on the wall efforts with nothing being done meantine those using this "service"? continue to be ripped off.

[Stillwater]

In my neck of the woods, there has been recent promotion of an airport parking alternative promoted by Brisbane Airport Parking  - http://www.bap.com.au/bap/default.aspx

It offers parking for $10 a day midweek, and a free shuttle bus to the airport.  That is an attractive alternative to Air Train, and is far better than the on-site parking fee structure at the airport itself.

[Golliwog]

Looking at that doens't entice me too much though. You still have to get all the way to the Airport roundabout, and once you're there you may as well go all the way. I would see this as less of a competitor to the AirTrain and more of a competitor to the current airport parking.

[#Metro]

We are going to have one gigantic carpark out at Brisbane Airport. The plane might need extra guidance so the pilot can tell the difference between the runway and the car parking.

The sheer number of road projects there is just breathtaking.

[somebody]

Personally, IMHO there is a real chance Airtrain will go bankrupt with Airport Link. Sorry to say it but it could well jeopardise their operations. 

Personally, IMHO Airport Link is more likely to go bankrupt than Airtrain.

Well consider the probability that they will both go broke, in the case of Airtrain quite a possibility the probability of which will increase if the Government rectifies the wrort with the fare structure where passengers pay a surcharge which goes to Airtrain for the portion of their journey not over the Airtrain operated section of their journey.  Of course Minister Nolan was going to "Look into this fare structure anomoly" but it was another of those mirror, mirror on the wall efforts with nothing being done meantine those using this "service"? continue to be ripped off.

I expect that nothing will be done about it.  There appears to be no working relationship between Airtrain and Translink.  State takeover at some point is really the best option, with Translink fares then applying.

Note though that if the next proposed increase to fares goes ahead, there will actually be a negative gouge.  On 2011 fares, the gouge is only 10c from Indooroopilly and 70c from Varsity Lakes at peak times.  Not the biggest deal.

[ozbob]

Media release 7 May 2011

SEQ: Brisbane Airtrain, 10 years of operation!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers notes that the Airtrain celebrates its 10 year anniversary of operations today!

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The Brisbane Airport Airtrain service commenced operations on the 7th May 2001 (1,2).  Construction commenced in 1999 and the $220 million BOOT project was officially opened in May 2001."

"The passenger loadings through the Brisbane Airport have grown.  Sadly though the hours of operation and frequency of Airtrain services remains poor.  We believe that if the hours of operation were extended together with a frequency increase in services travel to the Brisbane Airport by rail would be the mode of choice. This would go a long way to help relieving the chronic road congestion and parking problems."

"Innovation is also needed in terms of a promotional tourist ticket product that links in Airtrain with the rest of the public transport network."

"Happy 10th birthday Airtrain!"

References:

1. http://www.transfield.com.au/investments/brisbane_airtrain.htm

2. http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=8307

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[colinw]

On current trends, it will be 20 years until we get a decent Airtrain service.  That, of course, is when the BOOT concession ends and Airtrain becomes a bog standard CityTrain line.

[somebody]

With a lot more bog!

I for one am not very optimistic at all.  But I guess by 20 years time peak oil will have bitten and we will probably largely be using ethanol, methanol and natural gas for land transport fuel.

[mufreight]

Unless the transport act has changed considerably the Government can require Airtrain to provide a reasonable level of service and should for whatever reason Airtrain not be prepared to provide the required level of service, in this case extended hours of operation the Minister or the Transport Department DG can call for a suplementary service to be operated by another operator, as Airtrail is the owner of the rail infrastructure although there are options existing where third party access could be applied which would enable QR passenger to operate additional services the simple option would be for BT or a private operator to operate a service to and from the airport covering the hours that Airtrain does not provide service.
Airtrain would be rather upset were that to happen as they could not then extend their hours of opperation as passenger loadings and demand increased which would considerably damage their bottom line.

[somebody]

I think the investors in Airtrain have been screwed over enough that a more concillatory approach needs to apply. Or at least be tried.

$460/service, for what? Two staff members for about 40mins + rolling stock leasing for a similar time.  The amount of time involved per service could be significantly reduced by increasing the service due to the single track constraints.

[ozbob]

They are getting a lot for $460,  no upfront rolling stock investment, maintenance, signalling and control support.  Crikey, it only takes 30 pax to return a profit.  The mind set is narrow and self defeating.  Unless they ramp up they are liable to collapse when the other road options kick in ...  at a minimum services should be extended to 11pm.

[somebody]

Perway maintenance is included in the $460?

Yet another example of fixed costs being lumped in with variable ones and therefore causing bad decisions.

[ozbob]

Perway maintenance is included in the $460?

Yet another example of fixed costs being lumped in with variable ones and therefore causing bad decisions.

I meant to say rollingstock maintenance, not sure of the exact arrangement for track maintenance as such.

I have made some enquiries about hiring trains and it is many many thousands.  OK, there is a lot of services, but frankly I don't find $460 much at all for what they are actually getting.  They don't have to do anything from the crew/rollingstock/operational perspective.  They supply some staff at the two airport stations, other than that is a gravy train.  The problem is though they have forgotten to add the roast ..

[colinw]

Unless they ramp up they are liable to collapse when the other road options kick in.

That might actually be the best possible outcome.  Let 'em fall over, then run it as a normal suburban line.

[somebody]

I have made some enquiries about hiring trains and it is many many thousands.  OK, there is a lot of services, but frankly I don't find $460 much at all for what they are actually getting.  They don't have to do anything from the crew/rollingstock/operational perspective.  They supply some staff at the two airport stations, other than that is a gravy train.  The problem is though they have forgotten to add the roast ..

That argument does nothing for me.  I'd expect that a high price would be charged in such an instance to discourage interest.  Airtrain shouldn't be treated in this way.

Oh, and Murrays are able to provide unsubsidised (AIUI) coach connections between Canberra and Sydney for $15-$39. I'm fairly sure that the cost of providing this service is signifcantly more than double what it should cost between Brisbane Airport and Toombul.

Unless they ramp up they are liable to collapse when the other road options kick in.

That might actually be the best possible outcome.  Let 'em fall over, then run it as a normal suburban line.

I don't see how that can happen if they have paid off their debt, which they did last year.

[ozbob]

I don't see how that can happen if they have paid off their debt, which they did last year.

Easy, if they don't get enough revenue in to cover all operating costs. External debts have been repaid.  Airtrain needs to go after pax ...

[somebody]

I don't see how that can happen if they have paid off their debt, which they did last year.

Easy, if they don't get enough revenue in to cover all operating costs. External debts have been repaid.  Airtrain needs to go after pax ...

I suppose possible, but I'd think unlikely.  Patronage would have to drop very low now.  2m pax/year paying $15 means revenue of $30m, less discounts + gouge.  They made a $10m profit in 09/10, so I guess they must have expenses around $20m p.a.  Maybe slightly less.  I'm ignoring their Coast Connect services in that, I guess.

... They supply some staff at the two airport stations, other than that is a gravy train.  The problem is though they have forgotten to add the roast ..

Yes, but a 15 minute frequency all day service has already been tried.  How are you going to convince them to try it again??

I think my Ferny Grove/Airport/Beenleigh line plan is really the only which has any chance of getting up.  But even that is a lower chance than a reasonable frequency to Petrie, which we don't have.

[ozbob]

They still have internal debts ... it is the external debt that has been paid off.  I agree it is less likely that they will go under, however I don't think the Airtrain line is necessarily immune from third party operator access.  In that light QR could make a move to run services when Airtrain doesn't want too ..  again unlikely but better than the shoddy service we have now.

The 15 minute frequency they first ran was in a context of a lot lower patronage at the Airport generally, and a lot less road congestion issues.  I think that if they went for it they could capture a really good market share.  The key is extending the hours of operation IMHO.

[somebody]

What's the difference re: internal vs external debt?

[ozbob]

I am no economist, but I think it goes like this. They spent 220 million or so to build the line.  That was financed from internal sources.  In 2005 they borrowed 45 million dollars to restructure the financing and so forth.  It is the external loan money that has been repaid (see http://www.studygoldcoast.org.au/images/Airtrain_repays_debt12072010.pdf ).  I would assume there is a progressive write down of the internal debt from profits.  If there was a revenue shortfall they would either borrow externally again or sell?

[ButFli]

Oh, and Murrays are able to provide unsubsidised (AIUI) coach connections between Canberra and Sydney for $15-$39.

No direct subsidy but who do you think paid to build the bus stations and the highways? I will presume it wasn't Murrays.

[mufreight]

Oh, and Murrays are able to provide unsubsidised (AIUI) coach connections between Canberra and Sydney for $15-$39.

No direct subsidy but who do you think paid to build the bus stations and the highways? I will presume it wasn't Murrays.

Probably not but their licenceing fees contribute towards the infrastructure needed for all operators to operate.

[ozbob]

Are tourists really this gulliable?

--> http://www.airtrain.com.au/products_brisbanepass.php


---> http://translink.com.au/travel-information/visiting-south-east-queensland/city-sights

[somebody]

Having done the CitySights on someone else's dime, I would say that the only real "sight" is Mt Coo-tha.  I thought it was maybe $25 back then though.

[ozbob]

No doubt the largely hidden extra fare ( ' the fare rip-off ' ) helped them pay back the external debt sooner than forecast.  The least they could do is put services on till midnight ...  they actually might be suprised with the overall pax increase.

[somebody]

BrisbanePass is a discount though.  You get 2x $15 Airtrain tickets + $35 CitySights ticket for $53 - $65 value.

[ozbob]

Yes, on the advertised fares, but we all know it can be done a little better than that.  A pass integrated with the rest of the network would be the go.   I have always wondered why there are so few pax on the City Sights buses, now I know ...  

[ozbob]

Transport and Multicultural Affairs
The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk
06/10/2011

Late night Airtrain services announced

Thursday, October 6, 2011

People will be getting more evening trains to and from the Airport from Monday 12 December, in time for the Christmas holidays.

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk said a new agreement with Airtrain meant services would run until 10pm instead of 8pm.

"People have been asking about whether we could get the trains to run beyond 8pm and, together with Airtrain, I'm pleased to say we've delivered," Ms Palaszczuk said.

"This is great news for people wanting an alternative to go to the Airport.

"Trains will run every half hour from 8pm to 10pm, extending current services by two hours, giving people another eight services a day,

"With more people flying in and out of our great city and using our airports, services are continuing to grow to meet that demand.

"Airtrain is a private company which sets their own fares and service levels, however I'm pleased that we've been able to work together to deliver a range of better outcomes for people.

Airtrain Chairman Mike Pelly welcomed the signing of this agreement.

"This agreement has delivered the best outcome for the residents, tourists and the business community who use Airtrain to travel to Brisbane Airport," Mr Pelly said.

"The increased services will result in Airtrain meeting about 95 per cent of flights into Brisbane Airport and reflects our policy of continually reviewing service requirements.

"The Airtrain is a great way to get to the airport.

"For $15 you can sit back and relax on an easy 25 minute trip between Brisbane Central and the Airport," Mr Pelly said.

Airtrain operations started in May 2001 with a license from Queensland Transport that allowed Airtrain to build, own, operate and transfer (BOOT scheme) the Brisbane Airport rail link for 35 years.

For more information visit www.airtrain.com.au or www.translink.com.au

[ozbob]

Media release 6 Oct 2011

SEQ: BNE Airtrain

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers welcomes today's announcement of increased hours of operation of the Airtrain services to and from Brisbane Airport (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"RAIL Back On Track has long highlighted that the restricted hours of operation of the Airtrain service to and from the Brisbane Airport has disuaded many potential passengers (2).  Extending the services from 8pm to 10pm is a huge improvement."

"This improvement alone will drive a significant patronage increase during the present service period as well as during the proposed extended hours of operation. Overwhelming feedback received over a long period confirms this."

"The fare anomaly that arose when the integrated TransLink fare structure was implemented has also been addressed and we welcome that.  Further innovative fare products will cement Airtrain as the preferred method of travel to and from the airport."

"Catch the train, make the plane!"

References:

1.  7 Sep 2011: SEQ: BNE Airtrain - returns a profit but service can be improved http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6682.0

2.  5 Nov 2007: Airtrain key to easing congestion on roads to Brisbane Airport http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=289.msg987#msg987

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Airtrain to run until 10pm

Airtrain to run until 10pm
Bridie Jabour
October 6, 2011 - 12:38PM

Brisbane's Airtrain will run until 10pm from December 12, it was announced this morning.

Until now, the last train arrives at the 7.49pm and departs the airport at 8pm, frustrating commuters who arrive on later flights or catching later flights.

Airtrain chairman Mike Pelly and Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk made the joint announcement at Central Station this morning.
Advertisement: Story continues below

"The increased services will result in Airtrain meeting about 95 per cent of flights in to Brisbane Airport and reflects our policy of continually reviewing service requirements," he said.

Public Transport lobby group RAIL Back On Track spokesman Robert Dow was at the press conference and said the extra trains were good news.

"We have been lobbying for this for five years," he said.

"We are really pleased...we think there could be more innovations with the fare structure."

A ticket on the Airtrain is $15 and Mr Pelly said there were no plans to review or lower fares.

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk said they had made the changes in time for the schools holidays.

"With more people flying in and out of our great city and using our airports, services are continuing to grow to meet that demand," she said.

The announcement comes a year to the day since brisbanetimes.com.au first reported on the issue.

Last October, Daniel Gschwind, CEO of the Queensland Tourism Industry Council, said a lack of public transport from the airport after 8pm could hinder Brisbane's reputation with tourists.

"The first point of contact with a destination is often the transport facilities from an airport, whether that is a taxi, or a coach or a train," Mr Gschwind said at the time.

"And I think we need that we need to make a good impression. It really is an experience-shaping moment.

"I think it would be highly preferable to have trains available whenever a plane arrives. I think that is clearly the desirable situation and what most Australian expect when they arrive in a destination overseas."

At the time, the company maintained that it was too expensive to run later services as there were insufficient passenger numbers to support them.

But after last month announcing a record profit of $12.5 million, an increase of 34 per cent, the Airtrain foreshadowed a plan for later services.

In Sydney, the private railway - known as Sydney's Airport Link - runs trains into the city heart until 12.41am.

And in Melbourne, the Skybus runs buses between the city's main station at Spencer Street and the airport 24 hours a day, seven days week.

Airtrain started in 2001 after the rail link to Brisbane Airport was built for $200 million.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/airtrain-to-run-until-10pm-20111006-1laja.html