Gold & Sunshine Coast Regional Rapid Rail (formerly HSR thread)

[ozbob]

I have just discovered this thread ..

I AM SO PROUD !!

[#Metro]

How would a Sunshine Coast alignment work beyond Cabooture? What would happen to the old line?

I am thinking having the track support 210 km/hour speeds and dual gauge (the passenger services would be standard gauge to permit higher speed).

[#Metro]

Putting cost aside for the moment - I think HSR (200 - 250 km/hour) would be well suited to SEQ.

* The distances are large, but not large enough for people to take airplanes. (no competition with air)

* If built, it would be twice to more than twice as fast as a car, and therefore would be the mode of choice.

* The alignment is essentially linear Sunshine Coast - Brisbane - Gold Coast. This means stabling could be at either end, and not in the Brisbane CBD where land and space is expensive / at a premium.

* There is already significant established patronage on the existing QR system that could be moved over to a new regional HSR.

*The existing rail system has major problems already, shocking alignment and thus costly to fix. This change the relative costs between investing in the current network and a new regional HSR.

*There is a rail tunnel that needs to be built in the CBD anyway, crucially this is through the 'core' section of the CBD and thus a HSR project could piggyback off that and save incredible amounts of money in the LONG TERM (remember HSR etc are long term projects, we should expect payoff to grow over time. This is the opposite case with bus reforms).

* Rather than upgrade motorways on the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast, those 'motorway' funds could be used to install HSR into the motorway alignment with the intention to reduce motorway congestion, as in Perth.

* Existing motorway alignments and reserves could be followed, avoiding residential areas

* We already have a precedent of sorts with the Perth case in terms of density and bus network connections, so there would be pax if it were built.


* CRR tunnel through the CBD (maybe need to be tri-deck). Even if 2 separate tunnels needed, there would be savings doing it as one project similar to how AirportLink constructed both the Northern Busway and the AirportLink tunnel at the same time.
Need for Sunshine Coast Line Upgrade

It's just the funding that needs to be solved, but even this could be staged by letting trains enter the existing network where lines cross until the next stage is built. Perhaps dual gauge sleepers.

There is one area that is an annoyance and that is getting any HSR into the Brisbane CBD. A 6km tunnel underneath Kelvin Grove Road would be required so that it could plug into Roma St.

Perhaps it is worth investigating this further, formally. It is blue sky at the moment, but the GC would probably be the best upgrade, followed by the Sunshine Coast and these studies should be undertaken with the assumption that the CRR tunnel could be used or at least a separate tunnel built at the same time as CRR.

[#Metro]

I put some basic concepts up, clearly the Gold Coast would be the most worthwhile as that is where the population is.

SEQ Regional HSR http://tiny.cc/SEQHSR

The trains themselves don't have to be over the top. Could look similar to these, but faster:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL_X60#/media/File:Ny_pendeltag_stockholm.jpg

or the German ICE:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity-Express#/media/File:DB_AG_406_001-8.jpg

A simple parliamentary inquiry / report by consultants from Europe and Building Queensland / Productivity Commission QLD might do the trick.

[SurfRail]

If you were going to put this out:

1. There's no reason to deviate from the alignment of the Gold Coast line at all until around Yatala - the corridor itself is not an issue, only the restrictions of the track gauge.  If it was standard gauge line 200kph running shouldn't be much of an issue.  All you need is to extend the Beenleigh line services to a new parkway station at say Yatala (could be combined with moving the train stabling yard which would enable Beenleigh to be rebuilt properly).

2. Missing the airport would be an appalling misstep, particularly seeing you have to tunnel no matter what you do down there.  If you were going to extend to NSW via the M1 alignment, it is entirely possible to do this by tunnelling under the airport and out past SC Uni.

[#Metro]

It was a bit rough, I have refined it further now. Have a look. 

The basics makes sense for Regional HSR. For Sunshine Coast it is even better and faster.

It's faster than car by a large margin, and it's got no competition with air.

It would likely also not have guards, so labour cost would be lower. Signalling also different and more efficient.

It is also possible to plug into a national network if that ever eventuates.

You are correct with the GC line - could piggyback off existing infrastructure there already. Reduces the cost even further.

Just redirect the motorway expansion funds into this.

What do people think?

[#Metro]

With this proposal, is CRR would get interesting.

All the GC pax would be removed from the QR network. Tunnel would be for HSR into the CBD, possibly metro coming off the busway as well. NOT for QR trains.

Beenleigh line continues across the Merivale Bridge as it does now. Rollingstock released from GC line conversion could be put on the existing network, increasing train frequency massively. It would effectively be a metro on the QR network with all the extra trains.

[#Metro]

Is it worth including a station at Wooloongabba and Garden City? Thoughts on station placement??

[SurfRail]

If the points are meant to be station locations, I would move the one between Coolangatta and Varsity Lakes to The Pines. 

I'd also probably avoid Beenleigh.  "Yatala Parkway" station would be roughly where the line passes under the M1, and then would split off from the line to Beenleigh around the Albert River and then follow the M1.

I'd put a station at Loganholme as well.

The Kuraby-Springwood link is something I've considered previously given Kuraby by itself isn't anything special - anchoring the line at Springwood could help improve patronage.

After about the Greenslopes Hospital, for various reasons I think it makes sense to basically dodge Buranda and instead start tunnelling northwest towards Boggo Road to join an alignment mirroring CRR through the city and out towards Trouts Rd.  For the metro, you would close Greenslopes Station and relocate it further south if both lines are following each other.  Buranda has access to rail, surface buses (and the Eastern Suburbs Light Rail from Carindale to UQ...) and if you need to get there in particular from the south you can change to a train (or tram) at Boggo Road / Park Road.

That's if this is meant to be an alternative rather than additional.

For the Sunshine Coast I'm more inclined to think it would be better to follow something a bit closer to CAMCOS rather than going through Palmview.  Just follow the Multi-Modal Transport Corridor.  (You would also need a stop at Caloundra South.)  Kawana and Parreara are going to be easier to build through, more direct and more heavily populated / full of activity generators than that inland alignment.  In particular, you would want to have trains funnelling right into Maroochydore itself.

[#Metro]

For the Sunshine Coast I'm more inclined to think it would be better to follow something a bit closer to CAMCOS rather than going through Palmview.  Just follow the Multi-Modal Transport Corridor.  (You would also need a stop at Caloundra South.)  Kawana and Parreara are going to be easier to build through, more direct and more heavily populated / full of activity generators than that inland alignment.  In particular, you would want to have trains funnelling right into Maroochydore itself.

I'm not sure the CAMCOS corridor is good for Regional HSR. A local solution such as LRT or BRT would collect passengers on the Sunshine Coast and then take them to the HSR point for travel.

I have updated the map to reflect this feeder corridor.

[verbatim9]

Advocate for all new sleeper replacements to be dual guage sleepers for those lines.

[ozbob]

^ yeah  5' 3" and 4' 8.5"   

[colinw]

This board's foam is other places' reality.

E.g. Madrid Atocha to Toledo short distance HSR, which I rode in 2011.  270km/h top speed.  Best time is 23 minutes for a journey that is the same distance as Central to Nerang.

The new high speed line to Toledo replaced a slow 5'6" gauge 3KV DC line that was operated with normal suburban stock. The good bits of the old corridor were re-used for the HSR, and the inner part of the old line remains as a Madrid suburban service.

In QLD terms, it would be equivalent to converting the line from about Yatala  south to HSR, keeping the Beenleigh line as a local service, and building a new HSR alignment from Yatala to the city.

For 3'6" gauge I'd set 200km/h on a (new part of ) Gold Coast line class alignment as being a feasible maximum speed.  The RTT easily hit that in testing, and indeed the Malaysians are now routinely operating at 160km/h on electric metre gauge (recently opened electrification to Butterworth and the Thai border).

[#Metro]

What is RTT?

Interesting anecdote. I did a search on it, and the car takes 55 minutes, whereas the train takes 33 minutes. It is 20 minutes faster than car. http://www.raileurope-world.com/train-tickets/journey-insights/article/madrid-toledo

Unfortunately, the frequency is quite poor at 2+ hours, so the car is still faster in general (assuming no congestion).

Fares are very reasonable, GBP 12.9 (AUD 25).  Compare to GC fares (rough comparison $15).

I think this is where HSR is best suited - NOT competing with planes, but as a regional solution to sprawling cities where large distances need to be covered very quickly in low density. Basically take the Toronto/Perth model and modify it further for long distance inter-regional use. Stations even further apart (8 - 10 km or so), fed by BRT and LRT and using even higher speed trains (200 km/hr plus, ideally around 250 km/hr).

I would use standard gauge or broader. If this is the first HSR it will set the national standard by precedent and will need to be interoperable with the rest of the nation.

Think about how much the SC line will cost to upgrade on a bad alignment. That could be used and combined with Bruce Hwy funds to pay for a new, proper HSR line from Brisbane to the SC.

[colinw]

RTT = Rockhampton Tilt Train.

Holds Australian rail speed record of 211 km/h.  Unofficially I've heard rumours it hit 225 in testing.

When I was in Spain in 2011 the service frequency from Atocha to Toledo was hourly, must have been cut back, perhaps due to the Spanish debt crisis.  I think there might be some single track on the Toledo branch as well.

True HSR should obviously be standard gauge with 25KV electrification, but reasonably fast regional rail on the 3'6" shouldn't be ruled out.  Case in point, the Malaysians I mentioned earlier are going standard gauge for the KL to Singapore high speed line, but are still doing 160 km/h upgrades of their metre gauge network.  Room for both, particularly where an existing line is available.

[#Metro]

The tilt trains have a history of derailing and being involved in accidents.

If we go new, it should be completely new, and have nothing to do with legacy systems (apart from recycling alignments).

I think HSR could be a "killer app" for SEQ. It would be 2x at least the legal speed of motorways, so the RACQ would have no case there. It would take up less space than a motorway, so potentially cheaper (land costs) and would have higher capacity.

I am not sure how close you can run HSR trains together, but assuming you have 1000 passengers, and run them 5 minutes apart in peak hour, that would be 12 x 1000 = 12000 pphd. That's pretty good considering a standard motorway lane is a car every 3 seconds, which works out to be 1500 - 2000 pphd per lane max.

It's like 2x the speed and capacity!!

[colinw]

Unaffordable nonsense.

RTT service record since 2008 is exemplary.  It has not EVER derailed.

CTT, different story.  Berajondo was outright erroneous driving into a curve, the other accident was level crossing in FNQ.  If you think either the route to Cairns or even Rockhampton are deserving of a high speed rail replacement then you're smoking something.

I know this is a foam thread, but it might be worth keeping even these dreams within the realms of the affordable and achievable.  And if that means using a mix of new lines and upgraded legacy then so be it.

[#Metro]

You don't actually know that to be sure Colin. There's no harm in exploring it and then getting a negative answer. Desktop review.

You have funds for the SC line, and you combine that with funds for the Bruce Hwy, you'd have around $10 BN I would think. Plus the service is higher quality, so people would also pay more from fares for it. Running along Highway land reserved for lane expansion would also reduce the cost further.

"We will provide an investment of $6.7 billion to partner with the Queensland Government in an $8.5 billion package of works,"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-27/bruce-highway-promise-check/5516240

I haven't asked for HSR to Cairns etc, so I don't know why you introduce that into this thread. Distances like that face major air competition.

[#Metro]

SEQ HSR
http://tiny.cc/SEQHSR

Gold Coast: 100 km. (48 km or 48% existing GC rail alignment)

Sunshine Coast: 102 km (using Trouts Rd Alignment)

You would be looking at around a 35 minute trip to both coasts. Competitive against car, also has higher capacity than motorway lane expansion.

[Gazza]

I don't see why you have deliberatley avoided CAMCOS though? The alignment is there, and nice and wide, and is shorter than going via Glenview.

Running closer to the coast shortens the feeder bus / LRT connection journeys.

[#Metro]

Good question.

It's not CAMCOS, so it's not following a CAMCOS alignment.

Station spacing is also much wider.

A project like this is a long term project. I envisage a LRT or similar along the coastal route with closer stop spacing, and a HSR more inland. That will allow future development to be infill between these two side of a 'ladder', similar to the Gold Coast.

[red dragin]

Would you put an interchange between CAMCOS & the HSR route?

If your where going via Tanawa/Forest Glen you'll have to tunnel. May as well go under Buderim and shorten the route in my opinion.

[SurfRail]

Good question.

It's not CAMCOS, so it's not following a CAMCOS alignment.

Station spacing is also much wider.

A project like this is a long term project. I envisage a LRT or similar along the coastal route with closer stop spacing, and a HSR more inland. That will allow future development to be infill between these two side of a 'ladder', similar to the Gold Coast.

Yes but you are also going out of your way to pick a route which is more indirect, more difficult engineering wise and slower than what could otherwise be done, CAMCOS or not.

[Gazza]

Good question.

It's not CAMCOS, so it's not following a CAMCOS alignment.

Station spacing is also much wider.

A project like this is a long term project. I envisage a LRT or similar along the coastal route with closer stop spacing, and a HSR more inland. That will allow future development to be infill between these two side of a 'ladder', similar to the Gold Coast.

But that's like saying a busway is a busway, not a metro, so therefore the metro shouldn't be on the busway.

Point is, the CAMCOS alignment is a long straight piece of open land with gentle curves, that passes close to the economically important parts of the sunshine coast.

And that's the key. The coastal strip and places like Maroochydore and Caloundra and the SCUH site are always going to be the CBDs of the coast.

I'm saying, why not build that, but with fewer stations and faster rolling stock? At least you know there is patronage, and anyway, there's plenty of land around it on the western side for future development.

All you'd see at Forest Glen is AV Jennings and Stockland type developments.

The overseas examples you cite of MSR at least run to where the people are.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The tilt trains have a history of derailing and being involved in accidents.

You mean when cars/trucks run through red lights at crossings and don't slow to look left/right prior to crossing a level crossing??? If anything I can recall more EMU, SMU and IMU derailments/crashing into things than what the tilts have been involved in. The fiberglass panels on the front are always getting replaced but that's because they've hit a cow/kangaroo at 140+.

[#Metro]

But that's like saying a busway is a busway, not a metro, so therefore the metro shouldn't be on the busway.

Just a sec, I can see the corridor you are talking about. I try it...

[#Metro]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6647.msg169050#msg169050

If we really want to put a dent into the speeds of rail to the SC, and going into foaming territory, it would mean building Trouts Road corridor, then going up the Bruce Highway at Carseldine as part of a "faster" alignment. 

I wonder if it can be done in stages? If the SC line section is built to speeds that can handle say 260 km/hour, and with dual gauge convertible sleepers. Then standard QR trains can start out on a slow alignment, branching from the existing network.

As money becomes available, it should be possible to separate the new and old networks. Again using convertible sleepers.

The problem with this approach is that passenger use and population would grow with time, and to convert, you would need to shut down the line for quite some time to perform the actual conversion.

[#Metro]

Bruce Hwy Upgrade: $8.5 Billion (probably more upgrades than this in the future)
NCL:$1 BN
CAMCOS: $2 BN

11 BN / 100 km of proposed HSR line = 100 million/km. Within reasonable ballpark.

A large part of the cost would be covered IMHO.

[James]

I think MSR (up to 200km/hr) would be far more achievable for both.

Sunshine Coast line should use Trouts Rd, then current alignment to Beerwah and then CAMCOS. The Nambour line is too far away to be of use once you start running CAMCOS and using another alignment will cost much much more. Gold Coast line should run straight down the M1, then using the current/proposed alignment from Yatala to Coolangatta.

At an average speed of 160km/h, you'd be able to get to Helensvale in about 35 minutes (including stops), making a trip to Southport in under an hour very easy with the light rail. You need the extra 20-25 mins here because catching feeders is slow business (relatively speaking) as it involves a transfer time and using a slower mode of transit. For the Sunny Coast, At the same average speed, using the figure of a line length of 109km on this page as gospel, you'd be able to get to Maroochydore in about 50-55 minutes (including stops). This would eat the car's trip time for breakfast, mainly thanks to Gympie Road.

The biggest issue we have is getting the rolling stock and getting the fast trains out of Brisbane quickly.

[#Metro]

It is an interesting question James. I decided to look into it and do a simple plot.
I plot the time (assuming the train ran at the speed given along the line non-stop) and the time the journey would take from end to end.

Interestingly, the relationship is NOT linear. Instead, it approaches an absolute minimum. No trip to the Sunshine Coast may be faster than 20 minutes. Put another way, you can't save more than 40 minutes on the trip...

I show graphs and data here, check if I made any errors:

Based on this, it seems that a good speed would be around 200 - 260 km/hour, which is entirely doable and reasonable IMHO.
It would need to be slightly faster than 200 km as minimum IMHO, as I am assuming that there are no stations.

Faster than 260 km/hour you are not making a lot of time savings, and I imagine the engineering cost would go through the roof.

See? Exploring in the foam you find something interesting. It is not an un-worthwhile exercise!

Time vs Speed


Time Saved

[#Metro]

30 minutes is also within the 'Marchetti Constant'

This implies that the line will be heavily used for daily commuting.

Marchetti's Constant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marchetti%27s_constant

Why Commute Times Don't Change Much Even as a City Grows
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/06/why-commute-times-dont-change-much-even-as-a-city-grows/373051/

Marchetti's constant, or why the 30 minute commute is here to stay
http://persquaremile.com/2012/09/13/marchettis-constant/

Examples of trains around this speed are the German ICE Trains

[#Metro]

Stations would be around 8-10 km apart, which would mean about three minutes travel time between stations. '
For this reason there are no train stations within the trouts road corridor. The first stop would be somewhere out at Aspley.

If trains were run at 30-minute intervals, it would also not be worthwhile for someone in the Brisbane metro area to take the train, due to the waiting time involved.

A tunnel would be required from Enoggera to Roma Street. If a double deck tunnel is used, the option exists to straighten / speed up the Ferny Grove line as part of this if desired, or run another mode in the tunnel such as bus or car.

[#Metro]

http://www.eurail.com/europe-by-train/high-speed-trains/ice#routes

The ICE (InterCity Express) is a high-speed train that connects all major cities in Germany. With speeds up to 300km/h, this is one of the fastest ways to travel between cities such as Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne. The ICE has international connections to Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Switzerland and Austria.

If you're looking for an even faster way to travel, you can choose to take the ICE Sprinter. This is the latest generation of ICE trains, running daily during rush hour and making fewer stops than regular ICE trains.

[#Metro]

I have put in some conceptual feeder bus services.

http://tiny.cc/SEQHSR

[#Metro]

Here is something very interesting. The QR electrification scheme is HSR-compatible it seems. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_kV_AC_railway_electrification

25 kV alternating current electrification is commonly used in railway electrification systems worldwide, especially for high-speed rail.

This system is now part of the European Union's Trans-European railway interoperability standards (1996/48/EC "Interoperability of the Trans-European high-speed rail system" and 2001/16/EC "Interoperability of the Trans-European Conventional rail system").

Not having to redo separate power systems will be huge cost saving.

[#Metro]

And I have a working example. The French TGV operates on the same electrification scheme as QR does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGV_Sud-Est

Technical
Line length   409 km (254 mi)
No. of tracks   Double track
Track gauge   1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) standard gauge
Electrification   25 kV 50 Hz

[HappyTrainGuy]

I like it how you are comparing a hsr/ice line for use on our suburban networks regardless of what alignment you have from Brisbane to the coasts.

[#Metro]

I am thinking further how to progress this HSR (200-250 km/hour train) to the Sunshine Coast.

A major problem is the track gauge, which is narrow gauge. Building a completely new track would be expensive, however it would not
be impossible if, for example, the Trouts Road option were to become a reality. It also raises questions over CRR - should CRR be built to permit a potential standard gauge train to be put through it? One only gets one chance to build these things.

Another option is an upgrade of the existing tracks by adding a third rail to the existing narrow gauge railway, similar to what the freight lines have on the Cleveland line.

High speed would only really be available after Caboolture (interference with trains on existing network) plus there are the wiggles in the track as well.

Maybe better to go de novo?

[#Metro]

There is also issue of how to get the train into the CBD if it is standard gauge.

Can standard gauge trains do Bowen Hills -Valley- Central - Roma Street? Will the tunnels allow?

[SurfRail]

There are going to be all kinds of issues running at high speeds on dual gauge track.  I'm not sure of anywhere in the world which does this.  I believe RENFE has trains which run on variable gauge which can run between the French and Spanish gauges, but I don't know anywhere which would have either the normal gual gauge we see most often, or gauntlet type like at Roma Street.

By and large I don't think there is any good reason to run an HSR through any part of QR territory where there would be narrow gauge services.  You would take over the Gold Coast line and gauge convert it south of around Yatala, and you would build an entirely new alignment to the CBD.  You might be able to share the corridor out of the CBD to around Bald Hills with the Trouts Rd alignment, but you would not want any operational convergence of any sort.  North of Bald Hills you would be on new alignment again.