LNP: Brisbane Metro Plan

[#Metro]

RAIL Back on Track 2016 BCC Election Transit Pledge Map

Compare different policies. The Greens haven't really released much in the way of PT lines on maps yet.

http://tiny.cc/2016BCC

[Gazza]

- No obvious depot location.

For me that is the big one.
Maybe you could go all Singapore and have an underground Depot at the Go Print site?
But this is only $1.5 Bil right?

[ozbob]

Thanks Briz.  I made the point on radio this morning re cost.  It does seem to be a serious underestimate ...

I also mentioned the need for a depot etc.  I said much more detail is needed.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Team Quirk ‏@Team_Quirk 41s

LM: I can't wait any longer for State Gov to resolve bus congestion issues #standingupforBrisbane #BrisbaneMetro

=============

^

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 27s

. @Team_Quirk LOL just carry out reform of the bus network .. as was proposed in 2013!

[#Metro]

Ah, Ozbob, surprised he hasn't blocked you yet!! 

[ozbob]

Ah, Ozbob, surprised he hasn't blocked you yet!! 

Wouldn't matter if they did.  Hashtags will still deliver the message where it matters.

They really cannot hide from scrutiny.  This ' metro' is more hype than actuality I fear.

[ozbob]

The BrizCommuter word on both LNP and ALP's council election plans.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/01/quirky-council-election-promises.html

Thoughts on Quirk's Brisbane Metro idea are summarised below:
- Would decrease journey times between the metro stations as long as the frequency is high at all times of the day.
- Would not significantly increase capacity through the inner busway system (approx. 15,000 passengers/hour/direction, 50% of the media claim), though loadings may be more even.
- Does not serve major trip generators on Brisbane's inner busway system - UQ and RBWH (it would annoyingly stop one stop short of the latter).
- Would force an additional change just outside of the CBD for passengers who currently have a direct bus route to the CBD. This could increase journey times for these commuters. (Note: BrizCommuter supports trunk and feeder networks, but with changes in suburbs, not on the edge of the CBD).
- Some displaced bus routes (e.g. 444, Maroon CityGlider) would have to be re-routed through the CBD on roads, with longer journey times.
- Would require significant bus terminus infrastructure at bus/metro change locations - Wooloongabba (it is assumed Eastern and SE Busway services would be routed here), Roma Street, Normanby, and Herston.
- No obvious depot location.
- Inconsistent with long term government plans for a Brisbane metro.
- $1.54b cost seems unrealistic.
- Replacing part of the busway system with metro is likely to have a poor cost/benefit ratio, though this may be better if the entire busway network was converted with extensions (and gaps filled in). This election plan may cause more transport issues than what it solves. Just fix the bus network Mr Quirk!

I have circulated your article to all outlets as well.

[#Metro]

Not unreasonable at all. And why would you need a special depot?

How long does it take a QR train crew to turn around a train? From memory, it is like 7 minutes or so?

CRR Trains would already be running at every 5 min intervals with only busway pax on it. Add in the GC line pax, and you are looking at a service every 3 minutes to cope with the now concentrated demand.

It would be around 20 trains per hour. Not sure how many trains / hour CRR would be able to put through, but already you are looking at having 10 train slots free wiggle room. Not sure if that would be enough to last for the next 50 or so years.

The twin tunnel with the bus component replaced by metro rail is more appealing concept to me. Leaves the Victoria Bridge alone, can be dug at the same time as CRR, easier to fund as a single project at all 3 levels of gov't than having two separate and competing projects, allows the metro to be automated (no staff required) unlike the CRR-only proposal which requires 2 staff per train (more costly to operate), can have specialised metro rollingstock rather than QR train stock, and so on.

[Gazza]

That's fine, a 3 minute service is already happening in peak hour through Fortitude Valley on each track pair, and thats without moving block signalling. If you were running a 5 minute service you could step back crews.

I dont mind the concept of digging a double deck tunnel. You could always install the metro at a later date, but in the immediate term, CRR with some/all of the busway passengers interchanging at Wooloongabba should be done.

I wouldn't approve delaying CRR just so the metro can go ahead sooner.

[#Metro]

That's fine, a 3 minute service is already happening in peak hour through Fortitude Valley on each track pair, and thats without moving block signalling. If you were running a 5 minute service you could step back crews.

I dont mind the concept of digging a double deck tunnel. You could always install the metro at a later date, but in the immediate term, CRR with some/all of the busway passengers interchanging at Wooloongabba should be done.

This is a good common ground position we can agree on. 

[Gazza]

I cant be bothered digging up the post I made, but basically the idea ive had for a while is to do CRR as double deck,
with a 1.5km tunnel linking Greenslopes busway to Park Road, with everything south of Greenslopes as Metro.

The old busway north of that would be retained, and would exist only for buses to UQ and Carindale and Wooloongabba

[#Metro]

The old busway north of that would be retained, and would exist only for buses to UQ and Carindale and Wooloongabba

See, I think Quirk would have been better if he promised metro from UQ to CBD and an extra station at Wooloongabba. It just makes more sense.

Alternatively, you'd ultimately have metro from Garden City/8MP to the CBD and that UQ access would be by buses going UQ <> Buranda <> Carindale.

This LM proposal has merit, but it has signs of being cooked up in a panic in the last week or so, and drawn on the back of a napkin. And of

course it does, nobody ever consults us from Blue Team, and then they wonder why there are all these bugbears when they go public with their idea.

[ozbob]

The Cleveland Solution, the BaT, now the Brisbane rubber tyred Metro.  There is a pattern here hey?

Throw in a few bus tunnels, lots of great hopes ..  nothing much ever eventuates the end.  I think this metro proposal will be no different.

[#Metro]

Ah, I see 'attack cannon' Deputy Mayor Adrian Schrinner is on Twitter saying people rejected the bus review. Maybe he should be given a screenshot of the RTI request where it says BCC staff refused to attend planning meetings on six separate occasions. I wonder who in BCC issued those instructions?? Was it the Mayor/Deputy Mayor's office?

Oh, and the waste-o-gram on Coronation Drive which shows a bazillion buses all converging on the CBD. #BCC_Fail!

No such problems seen in Auckland, Hobart or Houston. They had proper consultation, as did private operators outside the BCC area.

[ozbob]

Yo.  All is not what it seems ... lol

BCC is the real issue.   

[#Metro]

Tweet

===

Team Quirk ‏@Team_Quirk  1h1 hour ago
#BrisbaneMetro is not light rail, it is a segregated subway system with 10 x capacity – 30,000 ppl per hour
===

This is not correct. See Guide For Media Outlets http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11894.msg167061#msg167061

Light Rail (300) x 30 trams per hour (tram every 2 minutes, eg Flinders St Melbourne) = 9000 pphd.

30 000 divided by 9000 is 3.3x not 10x.

Raises major questions over how well researched / panic rushed this proposal was!!

[#Metro]

Tweet

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Adrian Schrinner ‏@Schrinner  2m2 minutes ago
@Robert_Dow @RTBUnion Brisbane Metro will have drivers.

---

It's NOT automatic! That's second class - Copenhagen one is automated. That means frequencies are likely to drop off at night.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Adrian Schrinner ‏@Schrinner 2 minutes ago

@Robert_Dow @RTBUnion Brisbane Metro will have drivers.

[thetron]

Adding fuel to the fire. So we say for rail

• Passengers would be encouraged to be more active, health and walk longer distance to catch public transport
• Trains terminate and turn around at Park Rd and Bowen Hills
• People would detrain and catch a bus-loop system
• Release plans for underground/above PRT system that operates from Park Rd and Bowen Hills
• Anything beyond Northgate is considered high speed long distance services.
• High speed long distance services. It doesn't stop or drop off passenger st smaller stations serviced by a efficient/fast bus network
• Other words... First stop northgate
• High speed long distance trains terminate at roma street and travel via ekka loop.

More to be revealed

[ozbob]

4BC News have followed up as well.

[ozbob]

Team Quirk --> High frequency Brisbane Metro to cut travel times

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk has announced plans for a new high frequency subway system called the Brisbane Metro to slash travel times for bus commuters if he is re-elected at the upcoming Council elections.

Cr Quirk said the $1.54 billion Brisbane Metro would run on a dedicated route linking Woolloongabba to Herston, utilising sections of the South East and Inner Northern Busways, and would remove up to 200 buses per hour in the morning peak from the Victoria Bridge.

"This is a project that will be built over six years and provide a 100 year life for the city to keep Brisbane heading in the right direction," he said.

"The growth of our city and the demand on the bus network to feed this growth is looming as one of the greatest challenges Brisbane is facing.

"Brisbane Metro will offer a comfortable, high frequency, fast, time reliable and high capacity link between the suburbs and inner city using a subway system that is quick and easy to get on and off.

"People's journeys from the suburbs to the city and home again will be faster.

"Brisbane Metro will remove up to 200 buses per hour from slow inner city movements, allowing for more bus services in the middle and outer suburbs. By comparison, Labor's light rail proposal, that replaces the successful Blue CityGlider, would free up only 18 buses per hour."

Cr Quirk said continued employment growth, especially in the CBD and inner city, required increased public transport and many parts of the bus infrastructure had reached capacity and the city centre was becoming clogged with a growing number of buses.

"Every day about 170,000 employees, visitors and students travel to or through the city centre, mostly by public transport and this is predicted to climb to 250,000 by 2031," he said.

"Right now, buses carry a clear majority of public transport trips in Brisbane. The Brisbane Transport bus network carried 76 million passengers in 2014-15, 50% more passengers than the CityTrain network.

"The CBD's existing bus infrastructure, already at capacity in a number of areas, will not be able to cope.

"The Cultural Centre busway station reached capacity in 2013 with 230 buses per hour leading to chronic congestion and queueing. The King George Square and Roma St Stations are already operating at capacity while Queen Street Bus Station has, of course, been at capacity for many years."

Cr Quirk said the Brisbane Metro would deliver a level of public transport service not seen before in Australia.

"Around the world millions of people in cities including Paris, Montreal, Miami, Tokyo and Hong Kong use this rubber tyred metro service every day," he said.

"The Brisbane Metro is a step up from Light Rail – it's a segregated, high frequency subway system with the potential to carry 30,000 passengers an hour, 10 times the potential capacity of the Gold Coast Light Rail."

Brisbane Metro will create an interchange at Woolloongabba and Herston where people travelling on buses would transfer to and from the very high frequency subway system.

"Travel times from Woolloongabba to the CBD are estimated to take 6 ½ minutes compared to the scheduled 12 minutes but they often take up to 20 minutes because of bus congestion," he said.

"Similarly, the Metro will provide travel times of 5 ½ minutes from Herston to the CBD compared to the current scheduled 9 minutes in the morning peak. As we know, this often takes much longer and will only get worse if we do nothing."

Cr Quirk said Victoria Bridge would become a green bridge with general traffic banned and a new underground portal would be built under Adelaide Street to link North Quay and the King George Square busway.

There will also be changes at the Cultural Centre Station which will be placed underground with a smaller at surface station to support buses going to and from West End, such as the Blue CityGlider.

Cr Quirk said since the incoming State Government scrapped plans for a combined bus and train tunnel, it had refocussed on Cross River Rail which would not remove the problem that bus users face.

"Long term solutions are required for both the bus and rail networks and I do call for the State Government to be cooperative in terms of what we are proposing," he said.

[ozbob]

Adding fuel to the fire. So we say for rail

• Passengers would be encouraged to be more active, health and walk longer distance to catch public transport
• Trains terminate and turn around at Park Rd and Bowen Hills
• People would detrain and catch a bus-loop system
• Release plans for underground/above PRT system that operates from Park Rd and Bowen Hills
• Anything beyond Northgate is considered high speed long distance services.
• High speed long distance services. It doesn't stop or drop off passenger st smaller stations serviced by a efficient/fast bus network
• Other words... First stop northgate
• High speed long distance trains terminate at roma street and travel via ekka loop.

More to be revealed

Can't see that happening.  Rail will service the CBD as it does now, with the additional capacity from CRR as well.  The metro, if it is ever built, will be for the displaced bus pax.

[#Metro]

I am doing a quick poll for members re: Metro. 
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11956.0

[ozbob]

Tweet

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Adrian Schrinner ‏@Schrinner  2m2 minutes ago
@Robert_Dow @RTBUnion Brisbane Metro will have drivers.

---

It's NOT automatic! That's second class - Copenhagen one is automated. That means frequencies are likely to drop off at night.

What it means in effect is that engineering costs will be lower, however ongoing labour costs higher.   Clearly with the route proposed it would be difficult for it to be driverless.   Brisbane is well on the way with another half baked solution!

The State Government could stop it, but I doubt they would red, or blue to be honest.

[#Metro]

What it means in effect is that engineering costs will be lower, however ongoing labour costs higher.   Clearly with the route proposed it would be difficult for it to be driverless.   Brisbane is well on the way with another half baked solution!

Pretty poor when you consider that trains have been available in driverless for decades now, and buses/cars slated to become driverless in the near future.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Adrian Schrinner ‏@Schrinner 2m

@Robert_Dow also, depot and maintenance facility will be the State owned former Go Print site at the Gabba (factored into $1.54bn cost)

[Gazza]

Clearly with the route proposed it would be difficult for it to be driverless.

Why?

[ozbob]

Have to be completely segregated.  I get the impression it is not going to be.  If it was, surely they would do driverless?

I reckon they looked at it and decided the cost was too high.  They want to get it up so are not concerned with the longer term operating costs I reckon.

[bcasey]

Have to be completely segregated.  I get the impression it is not going to be.  If it was, surely they would do driverless?

I reckon they looked at it and decided the cost was too high.  They want to get it up so are not concerned with the longer term operating costs I reckon.

Yet another half-arsed infrastructure plan that could be fixed by simply improving the operation of the bus network.

[SteelPan]

Let's get this metro happening - I know all "Back on Track" members, been the RAIL lovers they are, will welcome the opportunity to advance a light-rail based transit over a tired old bus system, any and every day of the week!

Perhaps some got lost on the way here and were actually looking for a website called "Back on the Bus" or similar!   :conf

[bcasey]

Let's get this metro happening - I know all "Back on Track" members, been the RAIL lovers they are, will welcome the opportunity to advance a light-rail based transit over a tired old bus system, any and every day of the week!

Perhaps some got lost on the way here and were actually looking for a website called "Back on the Bus" or similar!   :conf

This forum is a Public Transport Advocacy Forum, not a Rail or Bus Fanboy forum. We care about proper, well-thought out public transport outcomes, the mode does not matter.

[SteelPan]

Nonsense, this site is simply now swimming, is pro-do-nothing people, who wants to discuss, "debate" and then impose a "bus a day" PT policy any and everywhere in greater Brisbane.....endless policy discussions - they remind of people, who get excited, over curing diseases in..."mice" and 20yrs later, nothing more has developed!

Over a 1ooyrs or so ago, cities like NYC and London, COULD have, come up with endless "policies" of why they should never have developed detailed metro transit system.......thankfully, they didn't!

Please quote for me, for us all, the ONE single study in the entire history of mankind, where a city REGRETTED having a comprehensive rail based metro transit system?[/b][/i]

Now is THE time....are we forever, going to be Cinderella Brissy?

ADMIN:

I find your font size offensive I have reduced it.   If you persist you will be removed.

[#Metro]

Easy. The Melbourne outer circle line was a big waste. Purpose was to push up land values for 'development'. Of course, with no pax, it went bankrupt pretty quick.

There is the Sydney Monorail. Useless that was. A triumph of style over sense.

The SPT subway in Glasgow. Runs in a circle. Would be much better if it were part of a more integrated network.

Toronto's RT subway - an experiment. To be replaced by LRT or extended TTC metro.

Toronto's Sheppard-Yonge subway. Not required at that capacity level. Forces unnecessary break of journey on feeder modes.

Many cities have metros/subways/shuttles that are just novelty toys. Just because it is rail doesn't automatically make it a good idea - this goes for all modes, including bus and car.

[Gazza]

Nonsense, this site is simply now swimming, is pro-do-nothing people, who wants to discuss, "debate" and then impose a "bus a day" PT policy any and everywhere in greater Brisbane.....endless policy discussions - they remind of people, who get excited, over curing diseases in..."mice" and 20yrs later, nothing more has developed!

Over a 1ooyrs or so ago, cities like NYC and London, COULD have, come up with endless "policies" of why they should never have developed detailed metro transit system.......thankfully, they didn't!

Please quote for me, for us all, the ONE single study in the entire history of mankind, where a city REGRETTED having a comprehensive rail based metro transit system?[/b][/i]

Now is THE time....are we forever, going to be Cinderella Brissy?

ADMIN:

I find your font size offensive I have reduced it.   If you persist you will be removed.

Honest question SteelPan, if someone proposed a Metro system for the town of Gympie, would you say it's a good idea or not?

[SteelPan]

Nonsense, this site is simply now swimming, is pro-do-nothing people, who wants to discuss, "debate" and then impose a "bus a day" PT policy any and everywhere in greater Brisbane.....endless policy discussions - they remind of people, who get excited, over curing diseases in..."mice" and 20yrs later, nothing more has developed!

Over a 1ooyrs or so ago, cities like NYC and London, COULD have, come up with endless "policies" of why they should never have developed detailed metro transit system.......thankfully, they didn't!

Please quote for me, for us all, the ONE single study in the entire history of mankind, where a city REGRETTED having a comprehensive rail based metro transit system?[/b][/i]

Now is THE time....are we forever, going to be Cinderella Brissy?

ADMIN:

I find your font size offensive I have reduced it.   If you persist you will be removed.

That's your decision - however, a person might ask, IF you find "font height" "offensive" - why provide the feature and, why exactly therefore, would you find it "offensive"? ie, you find the site's own features offensive?

Further, you'd "remove" me - for using the font height feature of the site?

[Gazza]

why provide the feature

It comes with the forum software.

I can type like this, and there is nothing stopping me, but it makes me look silly.

Quick question steelpan, if someone proposed a metro system for the town of Gympie, would you say it's a good idea or not?

[SteelPan]

not as much as I do support the one for Birdsville!  [ie, ask a stupid question.......]

[#Metro]

Hi SteelPan.

Font heights and boldness on forums can indicate that the person is SHOUTING.

So one must be careful.

[Gazza]

Ok so from your reply, we could conclude that.

-Rail systems cant be afforded everywhere.
-Some rail system ideas are silly
-In some places, other forms of transportation can do the job just fine.

Is that a fair response?

[aldonius]

I want to see these vehicles Quirky's talking about. Watered down slightly, they'd be (electric) superbuses.

Edit: also, 7 cumulative replies between hitting the bottom of the thread and getting the reply posted, go team!