LNP: Brisbane Metro Plan

[James]

This proposal is disaster on wheels. Enough said!

I think almost all policies put forward by the two major parties are disasters on wheels.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Oh look, it is @Team_Quirk metro!

> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg170943#msg170943 ... @Rod4Bris @BenPennings

[SurfRail]

Contrast with the Gold Coast really couldn't be more stark today, could it? 

[dancingmongoose]

Number #8 was the most political response ever.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

20th March 2016

Quirk Metro is Unworkable

Greetings,

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk begins a new term. Light Rail has been definitively rejected, as it should be. Indeed, the Gabba ward may return a Greens candidate, suggesting that even local residents were uninterested in yet another Light Rail proposal. We did warn Mr Harding that Light Rail did not stack up, and that we would not support Light Rail along the West End - Newstead route. Our advice was simply ignored.

We are disappointed for the residents of Centenary, who will have to put up with substandard Brisbane City Council bus services
for another four years it seems. The Lord Mayor explicitly rejected bus upgrades to that area in the lead up to election day.

We have assessed Lord Mayor Graham Quirk's metro. As proposed, the capacity will fall far short of the 30 000 passengers/hour touted in election material. Our calculation shows that even if trains were run every 90 seconds, Quirk Metro would not add any new capacity to the South East Busway:

300 passengers / train x 40 trains/hour = 12 000 passengers/hour

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk is welcome to show us how he arrived at the figure of 30 000 passengers / hour. We do not believe it.
Even if train capacities were doubled, it would still fall short.

At this rate, we believe that this metro will never be built and will be dropped before the end of the Lord Mayor's current term.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow now Brisbane, Queensland

Latest media: @Team_Quirk Metro is Unworkable

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11952.msg171106#msg171106 ... #qldpol @TMRQld @StirlHinchliffe @jackietrad

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow  42s

Hey @Team_Quirk do you really think Vic Bridge can carry these great trains>

...#qldpol

No?  Thought so ... oh. dear.

[verbatim9]

I think it will be tunnelled with a new alignment

[ozbob]

^ yep.  Will not work surface running onto and off Vic Bridge. 

Going to be costly .. 

[ozbob]

Twitter

Jessica van Vonderen ‏@jessvanvonderen 27 minutes ago

Developing a business case for Brisbane metro system will be priority for LM Graham Quirk @ABCNewsBrisbane



=================

Business case will be interesting hey?  lol

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 18th March 2016 page 13

Easy solution to nightmare

[ozbob]

Gawd Labor is incompetent.  They could have destroyed this easily but choose to cry and point >   ' rubber tyred (fancy)  buses ' as their main strategy.

Greens did a much better job at pointing out some of the many issues with the Quirky Metro but they, like us, were given very little O₂ in the so called balanced media ... 

[ozbob]

I suspect a business case if done properly will result in a very different project in concept to what the Quirky Metro is proposed to be at this point in time.  It simply doesn't stack up in pax numbers, has not got an achievable alignment and it is grossly under costed.  Time will tell ..

[verbatim9]

^ yep.  Will not work surface running onto and off Vic Bridge. 

Going to be costly .. 

Council likes spending money

[ozbob]

It would have to be a very strong business case for the State Government to allow the inner busway network to be destroyed, particularly if there is no overall pax gain.  I heard a passing comment on a radio news (4KQ) by LM Quirk to the effect he has yet to discuss the project with the state Government.  Interesting days ahead.

[kram0]

It would have to be a very strong business case for the State Government to allow the inner busway network to be destroyed, particularly if there is no overall pax gain.  I head a passing comment on a radio news (4KQ) by LM Quirk to the effect he has yet to discuss the project with the state Government.  Interesting days ahead.

I'm sure council will end up contributing to CRR3 should it ever get the go ahead and there project will not see the light of day.

[ozbob]

Fascinating political dynamic now.  State Government teetering on a cliff.  Quirky Metro to proceed to business case which will show up some home truths.  Does the State Government correctly not allow the busway system to be wrecked, or does it roll over and allow a massive waste of public funds to try to save themselves politically?

If I was Premier I would simply say enough, right now and damn the politics.

I would remove PT powers completely from BCC.

I would implement proper bus network reform. This will significantly reduce the number of buses running to and from the CBD and ameliorate the bus congestion in the inner regions.  It will allow more buses to be deployed out in the suburbs where needed.

Would sort Victoria Bridge and Cultural Centre bus station.

Advance Cross River Rail.

But I am not the Premier of course ... so we will continue to have an almighty mess and very unpredictable outcomes from here.

Queenslander!!

[#Metro]

The State Government is operating in autopilot mode. Who knows what they will do.

Still haven't allowed the back door of the bus to open!

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Get set for $1.54 billion Brisbane Metro

CONSTRUCTION of the $1.54 billion Brisbane Metro rail will start in two years, after Lord Mayor Graham Quirk was returned to City Hall with a historic majority in the weekend poll.

The rapid transit project is touted as the solution to the bus bottleneck at the Cultural Centre station and being capable of moving up to 30,000 passengers an hour, guaranteeing quicker travel times and freeing up 200 buses to be redirected to the suburbs ..

... He said that during his next two years in council he would develop a business case of design for the $1.54 billion Metro Rail....

[ozbob]

What a sad joke Brisbane transport is hey?  Hopefully within the next 2 years I can win lotto and can escape this madness!! 

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

21st March 2016

Transport Minister Stirling Hinchliffe - Start Bus Review

Greetings,

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk has been returned to office. This means the entire bus network will congest and gridlock on itself, damaging economic productivity in the State's capital. Our assessments show that Quirk Metro in its current form is unworkable and thus we believe it is a delay device intended to forestall much-needed bus reforms.

Here are the bus network black hole areas:

196 Yeronga BUZ
230 BulimbaGlider
359 Eaton's Hill (parts of this run in the MBRC local government area)
400 CentenaryGlider
911 Mitchelton to UQ St Lucia via Ashgrove and Toowong

The routes listed would plug the black hole areas identified in our New Bus Network Proposal.

The State Government's strategy to deal with Brisbane City Council is essentially the same as Brisbane City Council's - dawdle, delay and distract. Why is the State Government 'frozen at the wheel' on Brisbane City Council's bus network waste, duplication and inefficiency? Even further pressure will be put on fares to rise and this is likely to take centre stage in a future state election.

We suggest the Transport Minister re-purposes the existing State Government Fares Review Panel to review the Brisbane City Council bus network and  support for Queensland Rail train network within Brisbane.  As a former head of Brisbane Transport, the bus division of Brisbane City Council, Mr Neil Cagney's contributions will be extremely valuable.

Quirk ' Metro ' will not be in operation for another decade, if ever. Bus congestion will block the busway system in this time. Already Brisbane City Council is failing to meet mandated State Government bus on time standards. Is it one standard for private bus operators, and another standard for Brisbane City Council?

So much for integrated transport planning. 12 years after TransLink was formed, we have this ridiculous situation where the State Government and Brisbane City Council are off on entirely different tangents, working on their own pet projects in their protected silos. This situation cannot continue. Transport responsibilities must be stripped from Brisbane City Council.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

New Bus Network Proposal
http://tiny.cc/newnetwork

Note: Review of the QR train network will be limited to establishing whether service frequencies on rail lines within the BCC area are suitable for turn up and go service, and where works are required to properly interconnect rail and bus networks.

Quirk Metro Capacity
300 passengers / train x 40 trains/hour = 12 000 passengers / direction (this is already what the busway carries in peak hour)

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

21st March 2016

State Government Information Request: Quirk ' Metro '

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track requests from the State Government the Aurecon 2009 report suggesting that the Victoria Bridge can handle metro loads but not light rail loads.

RAIL Back on Track is very concerned about the Quirk ' Metro ' as proposed. We do not believe that it will have anywhere near the stated 30 000 passengers / hour stated in election vote bait material, and we are also unconvinced that the Victoria Bridge is capable that it can support the weight of fully loaded metro vehicles. Rubber tyre metro trains still require guide rails and electricity source via rail.

Both trams and the metro trains would carry the weight of at least 300 passengers when fully loaded.  If Victoria Bridge was close to limit this would rule out longer trains in the future.

We reproduce our query and answer from Team Quirk here:

9. Victoria Bridge is not of sufficient strength to carry a metro. What is the alternate plan?

Answer:

    "We disagree with the opening premise of this question. A technical report investigating inner city
    metro and busway conversion options was prepared for the State Government by Aurecon on 14
    August 2009.

    In relation to the Victoria Bridge, the report states "It should also be noted that the Metro option
    does not require the reconstruction of Victoria Bridge, whereas the LRT co-location option would
    require the reconstruction of Victoria Bridge with a significant bridge reconstruction costs allowed for
    in the SEB."


We request public release of this report for our assessment. If there is nothing to hide it needs to be released.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

Perhaps not a good idea to send it over the Victoria Bridge. If the metro is expanded to get higher capacity by coupling vehicles etc, that is going to increase the weight quite a lot.

It's not designed to take rail vehicles unless it is extensively modified. Wasn't there some contention about putting flags on the bridge because it couldn't cope a few years back with the extra loads.

I think there would be issues with trespass into the alignment and I wonder how it would work for NYE. Usually the bridge is closed for a good vantage point to see fireworks, that won't happen anymore if there is high voltage electric third rail on it.

[ozbob]

It will either a need a new bridge or tunnel.  There is no way Victoria Bridge will be able to be used.  If it is not suitable for light rail then it is not suitable for rubber tyre metro trains IMO.  Cost rapidly escalating.

The question does arise though.  If there are concerns with Victoria Bridge does bus jam with full buses overload it?  Be terrible if it collapsed one day hey ...

[verbatim9]

Most people I talked too when volunteering for the election preferred an underground alignment.

[ozbob]

Yep.  The half baked Quirky proposal as of now is rather silly.  If it is going to happen it needs to be done right and future proofed.  Undergound is by far the best option. I am sure some synergy with Cross River Rail is achievable as well if it is ever to go ahead.

WE actually raised the possibility of rubber tyre metro back in 2014 ( > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10955.0 ), is not new.

Am not against rubber tyre metro as a mode, just Quirk's thought bubble plan.  Altered to fix the obvious shortcomings it could be a welcome addition to the transport mix.  Hopefully the business case will lead to this point.  Hopefully the State and Council can get together and do a waltz and maybe a cha cha (choo choo? ) and come up with a PROPER SOLUTION, that satisfies rigorous CBA and Business Case etc.

[bcasey]

Rather than fighting against this metro being built, should we focus on convincing Quirk to consider alternative alignments that are better (maybe a proper subway metro), provide new connections (that the busway doesn't already provide), and doesn't interfere with the busway. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas out there on alignments (including my own blue-sky metro idea, albeit thought up in a day, much like Quirk's proposal). Maybe our effort is better spent on trying to get a positive outcome from this.

[ozbob]

The business case and I am certain negotiation with the State Government will lead to a much better outcome, if it is to actually proceed.

It will be at least a year and half before there is any indication as to the real costs and details of the actual project.  It will be changed a lot I would suggest from the present proposal.  Time will tell.

There will no doubt be public consultation processes as well ( we would hope! ).  So let's see how things roll from here.

In the meantime the bus network and the issues has to be sorted.  Brisbane cannot and must not sit in bus jam from here to eternity ..

[BrizCommuter]

Rather than fighting against this metro being built, should we focus on convincing Quirk to consider alternative alignments that are better (maybe a proper subway metro), provide new connections (that the busway doesn't already provide), and doesn't interfere with the busway. I'm sure there are plenty of ideas out there on alignments (including my own blue-sky metro idea, albeit thought up in a day, much like Quirk's proposal). Maybe our effort is better spent on trying to get a positive outcome from this.

Cross River Rail and bus reform are the highest priority requirements for Brisbane. There is currently no pressing need for a metro, so suggesting alternatives is just a foaming exercise. Anyway, Cross River Rail should have a metro like frequency in the inner city.

[ozbob]

^ just completed at interview with 7 News re Metro.  Stressed the above. Thanks for the interest 7 News!   

[Gazza]

Brizcommuter is, as always, the voice of reason.

Just build CRR, and have turnbacks at Yeerongpily and somewhere on the north side (well, anywhere will work) and just have short workings through the inner city as necessary to provide interchange capacity at Ekka and Gabba.

No separate line needed, and no need to muck up the inner busway and access to QSBS.

[verbatim9]

^ just completed at interview with 7 News re Metro.  Stressed the above. Thanks for the interest 7 News!   

Will it be on the news this eve?

[ozbob]

^ just completed at interview with 7 News re Metro.  Stressed the above. Thanks for the interest 7 News!   

Will it be on the news this eve?

More than likely ..

[BrizCommuter]

Brizcommuter is, as always, the voice of reason.

Just build CRR, and have turnbacks at Yeerongpily and somewhere on the north side (well, anywhere will work) and just have short workings through the inner city as necessary to provide interchange capacity at Ekka and Gabba.

No separate line needed, and no need to muck up the inner busway and access to QSBS.

With 4tph Gold Coast and 4tph Beenleigh Line off-peak services Cross River Rail could run 8tph off-peak. If equally spaced (requiring some track enhancements on this corridor) this would be a train every 7.5 mins. This is a comparable frequency to many NYC subway lines.

[#Metro]

Brizcommuter is, as always, the voice of reason.

Just build CRR, and have turnbacks at Yeerongpily and somewhere on the north side (well, anywhere will work) and just have short workings through the inner city as necessary to provide interchange capacity at Ekka and Gabba.

No separate line needed, and no need to muck up the inner busway and access to QSBS.

CRR is intended to unblock the rail network, Metro is intended to unblock the busway. They are separate lines. A metro would not just stop at Wooloongabba, but extend ultimately to Eight Mile Plains or Chermside.

It is not unusual to have two-tier services like this - for example S and U Bahns in Germany. Australian cities generally do not have two tier services but this is slowly changing (i.e. Melbourne with V/Line and Metro and Sydney with Sydney Metro and the Sydney Trains network).

Placing metro down the busways will lead to the most economical and simplest network in the long term.

[Gazza]

Here's the thing.
We can unblock the busways by building CRR and just running whatever trains are needed to deal with interchange pax.

And then when CRR is nearing capacity and running 9 car trains every 3 mins in peak, build a busway metro then.

I mean, a metro to Chermside etc is great....but it can wait, because the PT network there isn't immently at saturation

[#Metro]

Here's the thing.
We can unblock the busways by building CRR and just running whatever trains are needed to deal with interchange pax.

And then when CRR is nearing capacity and running 9 car trains every 3 mins in peak, build a busway metro then.

We could, but I would prefer a system that actually has services at existing busway stations rather than getting 90% to the CBD then dumping pax at W'Gabba.

Busway to Subway. Convert the Northern busway and SE Busways to metro stations and then you can just run buses to and from these stations just like they do in Toronto.

Serious consideration should be given to a combined Rail over Rail tunnel, similar to San Francisco Market St Subway. This would allow CRR and metro to be co-constructed with massive cost savings, and early opening.

If the busway was a metro today, it would be running at 5 minute frequencies in peak hour already.

[Stillwater]

CRR route details to be released soon?    

[BrizCommuter]

CRR is intended to unblock the rail network, Metro is intended to unblock the busway. They are separate lines.

CRR also effectively acts as an inner-city metro, as well increasing suburban rail.

The Quirky Metro doesn't actually solve any problems that could be solved by bus reform. There is no business case. Funding arguments and politics surrounding the Quirky Metro may well further delay CRR (which seems to be a trend of LNP policy).

A metro would not just stop at Wooloongabba, but extend ultimately to Eight Mile Plains or Chermside.

There has been zero indication that the Quirky Metro would do this. I would not assume that there is intention to convert more of the busway.
Also, why would Quirk want to spend loads of money on a bus rail interchange at Wooloongabba, and then divert the metro down the SE Busway? Though the plans are somewhat lacking on how the interchanges will work.

Don't get too wrapped up in Quirk's time wasting foaming.

It is not unusual to have two-tier services like this - for example S and U Bahns in Germany. Australian cities generally do not have two tier services but this is slowly changing (i.e. Melbourne with V/Line and Metro and Sydney with Sydney Metro and the Sydney Trains network).

Placing metro down the busways will lead to the most economical and simplest network in the long term.

Brisbane needs solutions that suit Brisbane, not other cities. Many cities wish they has a 1 tier system, for example Tokyo has designed or adapted metro lines to allow through running of suburban rail services. London will never see any more tube lines, but have suburban rail services running across the city in tunnels (Crossrail 1 & 2). 

CRR is urgently required. Bus reform is urgently required.
Metro-ising busways has poor cost/benefit and should be well down the list of priorities - in fact far below rail to Caloundra, Coolangatta, Flagstone, Trouts Rd Line, and eventual relief of Ipswich Line.

[Gazza]

Its not an all or nothing thing....you could pick and choose what routes dump pax...there's plenty of routes that would continue to service the busway on a logical network basis.