Line Division - Increasing QR train speed

[#Metro]

Increasing QR Speed

Buses and trains in Perth appear to zoom around faster than their QLD counterparts. Fast journeys cover a longer area and are important for covering distances in a city that is extremely sprawled out.

Changing service patterns is a way to speed up services. Some infrastructure changes (line amplification) may be required for this to work.

Here is one example:

Ipswich line: Trains between Springfield - CBD run every 15 minutes, all stops. Trains between Ipswich-Brisbane CBD run express from Indooroopilly DARRA to Milton/Roma St. Time saving = 10 minutes.

On the Cleveland and Beenleigh lines, where should the divisions be drawn?

Edit: Darra!!

[achiruel]

Surely you meant the Ipswich trains to run exp Darra-Milton stopping only at Indooroopilly? I can't see skipping Auchenflower-Taringa saving 10 mins.

Beenleigh all stoppers to Kuraby. Other service express Park Rd to Kuraby stopping Altandi, then all to Beenleigh.

Cleveland all to Murrarie. This may require some turnaround facilities there.  Express sevices Park Rd-Murrarie then all to Cleveland. Would be good to get 15 minute all day to Manly, every second service continuing to Cleveland. Some decent feeder services around Wynnum/Manly could help this considerably.

[STB]

Surely you meant the Ipswich trains to run exp Darra-Milton stopping only at Indooroopilly? I can't see skipping Auchenflower-Taringa saving 10 mins.

Beenleigh all stoppers to Kuraby. Other service express Park Rd to Kuraby stopping Altandi, then all to Beenleigh.

Cleveland all to Murrarie. This may require some turnaround facilities there.  Express sevices Park Rd-Murrarie then all to Cleveland. Would be good to get 15 minute all day to Manly, every second service continuing to Cleveland. Some decent feeder services around Wynnum/Manly could help this considerably.

Cleveland trains can run express Manly to Morningside as they do currently in peak hour, I'd prefer consistency with the peak expresses in general, not only just the Cleveland line.  Although, the line between Manly and Cleveland will need to be duplicated before any high frequency (at least every 15mins) can happen, already in peak hour, one minor delay and Control has a habit of turning the Manly all stoppers into expresses as well as that's all it takes to throw things out.

In regards to the Beenleigh trains running express from Kuraby, I think some more tracks might be needed before that happens.  3 tracks ain't gonna cut it, it really should've been 4 tracks when they upgraded it from Sailsbury to Kuraby back in 2007/08 to allow proper separation between the GC trains and the Beenleigh trains.

[SurfRail]

LD - there basically isn't track capacity to permit what you are suggesting on any line other than the Ipswich line and north of Northgate. 

The only line to operate in this fashion in Perth outside of peak hour is Armadale and Thornleigh, and the number of stops from Beckenham inbound where the 2 branches converage is relatively small (there are only 8 stations overlap - 2 of those are on both stopping patterns, and Beckenham is bypassed by Thornleigh trains even though that is technically the "all stations" route and it passes through it).

The other various stopping patterns in Perth are a function of overloading of short (2, 3 or 4 car) trains, positioning movements or not servicing certain stations at some times due to low demand (like Karrakatta which is mainly a cemetery with alternative stations close by).  Most of these patterns will probably vanish once enough trains are eventually online to enable proper all-stations service all the time, the way limited stoppers have disappeared from Ferny Grove.

Cleveland - even if it had the track capacity to allow expresses, the line speed is so poor inbound of Cannon Hill there is simply no advantage to it except for peak hour capacity reasons.  (This is a similar rationale for the skip-stop patterns on the Midland and Freo lines - if every train was a 4-car train, or even a 6-car train if they are prepared to extend platforms, there would be no need for any express running on this sector.)

Beenleigh - already has tiered services in the form of the Gold Coast line.  CRR will enable further separation ie once there is room for more than 2 patterns.

Ipswich - no issue with physical track capacity in running the current peak hour timetable full time.  There are other restraints such as freight paths to deal with which would be solved by the proposed freight line from Ebenezer to the interstate SG line south of Greenbank.  One that is installed it becomes an issue of rollingstock and opex, which are easier to solve.

North of Northgate - already being implemented with MBRL opening.  Due to there being 4 tracks and a common stopping pattern for all the express trains which use the non-Sector 2 tracks, this is achievable now in the same way it is for Springfield and Ipswich.  There will be issues in future north of here without something like Trouts Rd to take the expresses away from the current circuitous route to town.

[#Metro]

LD - there basically isn't track capacity to permit what you are suggesting on any line other than the Ipswich line and north of Northgate. 

Doesn't matter. I believe in investing in the current network before extending poor service to areas in the middle of nowhere like Ripley, Yarrabilba etc. I realise this is a longer term thing, and require $.

Brisbane is a sprawling city. That is not going to change anytime soon, if ever. PT network needs to be adapted to the task at hand, like Perth has successfully done in an ultra-low density / hi-sprawl environment.

So far I am thinking (happy to hear more suggestions):

Ipswich Line:
All stops from Ipswich to Darra, then Express Darra to Milton (initially every 30 min, upgrade eventually to every 15 minutes)
All stops Springfield-CBD (every 15 minutes)

Cleveland Line:
All stops from Cleveland to Murrarie, then Express to Park Road (possibly every 30 minutes)
All stops from Murrarie to CBD (every 15 minutes)

Beenleigh Line
All stops from Kuraby to CBD (every 15 minutes)
All stops from Beenleigh to Kuraby, then Express to Park Road (every 30 minutes)

The Ipswich one is easiest to do.

[SurfRail]

Cleveland express running is pointless as I've explained, ESPECIALLY if you start running express from as close as Murrarie.  There is no time advantage and no capacity issue outside of peak.  Current peak timetable works fine, just need to expand the 2 tiered 15 minute service period and wipe out 3 car sets.

No real disagreement about the others but this isn't revolutionary.  Lots of us have been saying this is what we need when it is physically possible.

[#Metro]

Cleveland express running is pointless as I've explained, ESPECIALLY if you start running express from as close as Murrarie.  There is no time advantage and no capacity issue outside of peak.  Current peak timetable works fine, just need to expand the 2 tiered 15 minute service period and wipe out 3 car sets.

No real disagreement about the others but this isn't revolutionary.  Lots of us have been saying this is what we need when it is physically possible.

The Cleveland line is a surprise. Time savings for the expresses is only around 5 minutes (Manly-Morningside). Why is it like this?
Running express from Park Rd to Murrarie (about six stations) wouldn't be much more than that.

How about running express from Wynnum Central then?

All stops Wynnum Central to Brisbane CBD (15 minutes)
All stops Cleveland to Wynnum Centra, then express to Park Rd. (30 minutes)

[petey3801]

Wynnum Central isn't a turnback location. Manly is the go for that, which makes more sense anyway. Same express pattern as in peak.
Murrarie to Park Rd express doesn't save much simply because the track is so slow.

[kaykayt]

LD - there basically isn't track capacity to permit what you are suggesting on any line other than the Ipswich line and north of Northgate. 

Doesn't matter. I believe in investing in the current network before extending poor service to areas in the middle of nowhere like Ripley, Yarrabilba etc. I realise this is a longer term thing, and require $.

Brisbane is a sprawling city. That is not going to change anytime soon, if ever. PT network needs to be adapted to the task at hand, like Perth has successfully done in an ultra-low density / hi-sprawl environment.

So far I am thinking (happy to hear more suggestions):

Ipswich Line:
All stops from Ipswich to Darra, then Express Darra to Milton (initially every 30 min, upgrade eventually to every 15 minutes)
All stops Springfield-CBD (every 15 minutes)

Cleveland Line:
All stops from Cleveland to Murrarie, then Express to Park Road (possibly every 30 minutes)
All stops from Murrarie to CBD (every 15 minutes)

Beenleigh Line
All stops from Kuraby to CBD (every 15 minutes)
All stops from Beenleigh to Kuraby, then Express to Park Road (every 30 minutes)

The Ipswich one is easiest to do.

What happens to night operating trains on the main line? Do both Springfield and Ipswich operate or just Ipswich but all stations?

[#Metro]

Murrarie to Park Rd express doesn't save much simply because the track is so slow.

Why is the track so slow?

[Gazza]

Murrarie to Park Rd express doesn't save much simply because the track is so slow.

Why is the track so slow?

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Cannon+Hill+QLD/@-27.4773514,153.0633825,1110m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x6b91596256daf8af:0x502a35af3de8330

[#Metro]

^^ Wow, it reminds me of the QSBS bus 'snake'

[Old Northern Road]

The reason why trains in Perth are faster is because they don't have so much fat in the timetable. The Armadale line is the only line which has expresses in the off peak.

I don't think you can justify running a 2 tier service on the Cleveland and Beenleigh lines. Particularly the Beenleigh line as Beenleigh and Loganlea already have express services so you would only be benefitting 6 stations (none of which are particularly busy)

[Old Northern Road]

Cleveland express running is pointless as I've explained, ESPECIALLY if you start running express from as close as Murrarie.  There is no time advantage and no capacity issue outside of peak.  Current peak timetable works fine, just need to expand the 2 tiered 15 minute service period and wipe out 3 car sets.

No real disagreement about the others but this isn't revolutionary.  Lots of us have been saying this is what we need when it is physically possible.

The Cleveland line is a surprise. Time savings for the expresses is only around 5 minutes (Manly-Morningside). Why is it like this?
Running express from Park Rd to Murrarie (about six stations) wouldn't be much more than that.

How about running express from Wynnum Central then?

All stops Wynnum Central to Brisbane CBD (15 minutes)
All stops Cleveland to Wynnum Centra, then express to Park Rd. (30 minutes)

It skips 7 stations and is 7mins faster which is what you would expect.

[kram0]

LD - there basically isn't track capacity to permit what you are suggesting on any line other than the Ipswich line and north of Northgate. 

Doesn't matter. I believe in investing in the current network before extending poor service to areas in the middle of nowhere like Ripley, Yarrabilba etc. I realise this is a longer term thing, and require $.

Brisbane is a sprawling city. That is not going to change anytime soon, if ever. PT network needs to be adapted to the task at hand, like Perth has successfully done in an ultra-low density / hi-sprawl environment.

So far I am thinking (happy to hear more suggestions):

Ipswich Line:
All stops from Ipswich to Darra, then Express Darra to Milton (initially every 30 min, upgrade eventually to every 15 minutes)
All stops Springfield-CBD (every 15 minutes)

Cleveland Line:
All stops from Cleveland to Murrarie, then Express to Park Road (possibly every 30 minutes)
All stops from Murrarie to CBD (every 15 minutes)

Beenleigh Line
All stops from Kuraby to CBD (every 15 minutes)
All stops from Beenleigh to Kuraby, then Express to Park Road (every 30 minutes)

The Ipswich one is easiest to do.

How do you propose your express Beenleigh services will work on the outbound sectors considering there are only 3 tracks? Do you think express from City-Kuraby express and all stations will be possible with GC express services both in bound and out bound? If it is possible it sounds like a suitable plan.

[#Metro]

How do you propose your express Beenleigh services will work on the outbound sectors considering there are only 3 tracks? Do you think express from City-Kuraby express and all stations will be possible with GC express services both in bound and out bound? If it is possible it sounds like a suitable plan.

I'm in two minds about the Cleveland and Beenleigh lines.

CRR will cut 10 min or so from the Beenleigh line when it opens.
15-minute trains could be extended to Kuraby, then the question is what to do - we could take 2 trains out of that 4 trains/hour and extend to Beenleigh, or run express trains (2 trains/hour) to Beenleigh to Kuraby and then all stops to Beenleigh after that (basically give Logan residents their own train sector to the CBD)

I know something similar operates in Melbourne, where lines can be very long and have many stations. Trains through Dandenong (Cranbourne/Packenham) skip inner suburban stations, which are covered by all stoppers from Frankston.

BUT to answer your question, you would need track amplification. It needs to be done anyway. Ludicrous people talk effortlessly about trams, metros and HSR zooming everywhere, but cannot get 15 min frequent services in both directions on the GC/Beenleigh line proper.

[SurfRail]

Every version of CRR has assumed 3 stopping patterns on the Gold Coast corridor.

It depends on what is proposed as to what will become feasible.  Too much shadowboxing.

[#Metro]

It depends on what is proposed as to what will become feasible.  Too much shadowboxing.

It's worth thinking about. Key question will be whether there are enough pax from the Logan LGA to justify their own service sector, and express trains all day into the CBD.

[verbatim9]

Once the Gold coast line is duplicated. Translink and Qr should redesign a tighter timetable. Trains wait at stations for too long.

[SurfRail]

It depends on what is proposed as to what will become feasible.  Too much shadowboxing.

It's worth thinking about. Key question will be whether there are enough pax from the Logan LGA to justify their own service sector, and express trains all day into the CBD.

The thinking to date seems to have been that Beenleigh is not necessarily going to be the terminus of any pattern in the long run.  I've seen iterations where the outer pattern was the southernmost Gold Coast to Beenleigh, the mid-range pattern was Helensvale to Loganlea (both the outer and middle patterns stop at all stations from Helensvale to Beenleigh), and the inner all-stops pattern was from Loganlea.  Another iteration was all stations to Kuraby + express to Kuraby then all to Beenleigh + roughly current Gold Coast pattern stopping Kuraby and not Altandi.

There are too many variables to really pay much attention to it - you need to make too many assumptions about where the extra track capacity will be, whether (and if) something like CRR is built and if so where the portals are, where the interchanges are and what surface approach works are done, whether something completely different to CRR is built, etc.  Until we get some kind of project announcement nothing can really change.

[petey3801]

Once the Gold coast line is duplicated. Translink and Qr should redesign a tighter timetable. Trains wait at stations for too long.

The duplication won't actually do anything to make the timetable any faster. The current timetable is actually very, very tight between Beenleigh and Varsity Lakes and v.v. The obese part of the timetable is City to Beenleigh, as the Gold Coast train needs to wait for the Beenleigh dance to occur before getting in to Beenleigh station.

[nathandavid88]

Once the Gold coast line is duplicated. Translink and Qr should redesign a tighter timetable. Trains wait at stations for too long.

The duplication won't actually do anything to make the timetable any faster. The current timetable is actually very, very tight between Beenleigh and Varsity Lakes and v.v. The obese part of the timetable is City to Beenleigh, as the Gold Coast train needs to wait for the Beenleigh dance to occur before getting in to Beenleigh station.

Wasn't someone on here (possibly Ozbob) saying that there are things happening behind the scenes to try and address this particular issue at Beenleigh?

[verbatim9]

I read somewhere on here that Beenleigh will not be treated at a turn back once duplication is completed on the GC line

[petey3801]

Once the Gold coast line is duplicated. Translink and Qr should redesign a tighter timetable. Trains wait at stations for too long.

The duplication won't actually do anything to make the timetable any faster. The current timetable is actually very, very tight between Beenleigh and Varsity Lakes and v.v. The obese part of the timetable is City to Beenleigh, as the Gold Coast train needs to wait for the Beenleigh dance to occur before getting in to Beenleigh station.

Wasn't someone on here (possibly Ozbob) saying that there are things happening behind the scenes to try and address this particular issue at Beenleigh?

Unlikely to change until a new timetable for sector 2 comes out, which isn't on the cards at the moment.

[kram0]

Is the transport corridor capable of having quad tracks on the Beenleigh line?

Also can someone explain sector 1.2 etc?

Thanks.

[ozbob]

Sector 1 is Rosewood Ipswich Caboolture Sunshine Coast Springfield Central & Kippa Ring lines.. Rest are sector 2

Sent from my E2353 using Tapatalk

[kram0]

Sector 1 is Rosewood Ipswich Caboolture Sunshine Coast Springfield Central & Kippa Ring lines.. Rest are sector 2

Sent from my E2353 using Tapatalk

Is this because they are using the 'main lines' that the freight, coal and long distance trains use?

[ozbob]

Essentially.  It is a logical division based largely on the track pairs.  Also helps administratively to divide into two sectors, for scheduling etc.

[SurfRail]

Is the transport corridor capable of having quad tracks on the Beenleigh line?

Between Yeerongpilly and Salisbury there is basically no issue.

Yeerongpilly to the City will of necessity involve tunnelling somewhere.

Salisbury to Kuraby there is room but I would have to question whether spending any more money on that awful alignment is the best way forward, especially Coopers Plains to Runcorn.

South of Kuraby, I question whether its even necessary.

[petey3801]

Is the transport corridor capable of having quad tracks on the Beenleigh line?

Between Yeerongpilly and Salisbury there is basically no issue.

Yeerongpilly to the City will of necessity involve tunnelling somewhere.

Salisbury to Kuraby there is room but I would have to question whether spending any more money on that awful alignment is the best way forward, especially Coopers Plains to Runcorn.

South of Kuraby, I question whether its even necessary.

Ideally, I would love a new line to be built from Beenleigh towards the CBD, traveling along the M1 alignment with minimal stations (say, Hyperdome area, Garden City, maybe one more closer to the City), hooking in to CRR around Buranda/Park Road area to continue along the CRR alignment through the City and to the north. A new Beenleigh station on the M1 alignment, with a line coming from the current Beenleigh station hooking around after the yard to the new station with a terminating road clear of the through Gold Coast line. Combination of above ground/surface/tunnel along the alignment where required, possibly even running above the SEB in places. 130-140km/h alignment the whole way.

Buuuut, at this point, that's likely even more foam than the current Metro plan discussion...

[kram0]

Is the transport corridor capable of having quad tracks on the Beenleigh line?

Between Yeerongpilly and Salisbury there is basically no issue.

Yeerongpilly to the City will of necessity involve tunnelling somewhere.

Salisbury to Kuraby there is room but I would have to question whether spending any more money on that awful alignment is the best way forward, especially Coopers Plains to Runcorn.

South of Kuraby, I question whether its even necessary.

Thanks for your reply. I doubt quad is needed beyond Kuraby also, but 3 tracks would give us a lot of flexibility. Unfortunately with the useless governemnts in at present, I doubt they will spend on any major infrastructure in the few couple of years, we can only hope!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Buuuut, at this point, that's likely even more foam than the current Metro plan discussion...

I haven't been on here in a couple days but holy crap with the metro foam.

[achiruel]

It depends on what is proposed as to what will become feasible.  Too much shadowboxing.

It's worth thinking about. Key question will be whether there are enough pax from the Logan LGA to justify their own service sector, and express trains all day into the CBD.

Well, Moreton residents are about to have two all-day express services (although admittedly one will stop in a few BCC suburbs too).  So I don't see why Logan couldn't. Even if extended to Helensvale, which is probably a good idea.

[nathandavid88]

There is an awful lot of development happening in the former GCCC-parts of Logan (around Beenleigh, Eagleby, and Holmview in particular) and that's before you add Yarrabilba into the mix. If the Logan LGA doesn't have the pax to support it now, it won't be long before it does. The biggest issue with these new Logan developments is that bus services in those areas are probably the worst services in the city. They are long, slow, infrequent and meandering services that don't even cover all the areas we need them to.

That aside, if the train service sector runs down to Helensvale, you then also add the growing population in new developments around Pimpama and Coomera to that total as well.

[achiruel]

I'm not sure if I agree with the idea of Woodridge/Kingston being on a different stopping pattern than Loganlea. A lot of people in the area access Loganlea station for the local hospital, TAFE, University and around Meadowbrook is also becoming a fairly large employment centre for the central Logan area.

[aldonius]

Agree. The obvious patterns are:



• Kuraby via Merivale, all stops, frequent
• Beenleigh or Helensvale via CRR, express Kuraby - Salisbury - Yeerongpilly, probably frequent
• Gold Coast via CRR, express Beenleigh - Loganlea - Kuraby - Salisbury - Yeerongpilly, half-hourly

Plus:




• Cleveland via Merivale (possibly with express outer/frequent inner)
• Flagstone via CRR, express Salisbury - Yeerongpilly, probably frequent
• Local Gold Coast infill