Later Retail Trade encouraging Public Transport use in SEQld

[verbatim9]

There has been more talk lately on improving Night link services and late evening services. Also a push on extending/deregulating supermarket trading hours. If supermarket trading hours are relaxed and can open until midnight? There will be a need for more bi-directional busses in most Se Qld locations from 9pm until Midnight, for staff and customers of the supermarkets.

[hU0N]

I think that they should definitely do this.

Realistically it'll have a smaller effect than you anticipate I think. In other jurisdictions such as Sydney, full deregulation of trading hours has led to most Supermarkets closing at 10pm, with those in CBD fringe areas and other higher density pockets staying open till 11 or midnight.

Similar thing can be observed in Brisbane with IGA supermarkets (which are exempt from trading hour limits), in many higher density or closer in areas (Milton, East Brisbane, New Farm, Greenslopes, St Lucia) open till midnight, while the further outs mostly close at 10.

If the goal is to encourage after peak bi directional travel, you also need to have a look at "core trading hours" rules. These are the rules that govern when a retail landlord can require his tenants to be open. Currently a landlord can nominate on each tenants lease core trading hours anywhere between 9-5:30 (m,t,w,f), 9-9 (th), 9-5 (sat). Landlords don't have to nominate all these hours as core, and they can nominate different core hours for each lessee if they wish (provided they are within the above limits), but in practice, they don't do either.

These are the rules that really suppress post peak demand. They force shops to trade in marginal hours in the morning, which encourages them to close during the marginal hours in the optional evening.

If alternatively, landlords could require up to 70 core hours of each tenant per week, but landlords were prevented from nominating or enforcing specific hours, and tenants could choose to do their core hours in the evenings if that suited their business better, then you'd see more shops stay open past 5, attracting more shoppers and staff and thus more bi directional demand for travel.

[SurfRail]

Currently a landlord can nominate on each tenants lease core trading hours anywhere between 9-5:30 (m,t,w,f), 9-9 (th), 9-5 (sat).

The insane thing is that the core trading hours vary in different parts of the state.

Then on top of that you have allowable trading hours.

Until fairly recently (in relative terms), you couldn't go shopping in Beaudesert on a Sunday, which led to the inevitable outcome of everybody going up to Jimboomba which was on the "correct" side of the "border".

I can't even follow the QIRC rulings on this stuff - I get paid to have these arguments in both directions.  Scrap the whole lot would be the best thing and leave it up to landlords and tenants to work out.

[hU0N]

I can't even follow the QIRC rulings on this stuff - I get paid to have these arguments in both directions.  Scrap the whole lot would be the best thing and leave it up to landlords and tenants to work out.

Hear hear.

I read somewhere not too long ago that successive and overlapping QIRC rulings have fractured the city frame (areas within 1km of GPO) into over fifty separate trading hour "zones", each with their own core trading hours and allowable trading hours, which may be different to those applying to businesses located sometimes just a few hundred metres away.

[techblitz]

not enough people shop late at night( weekdays post 9pm) period.....which defeats the purpose of staying open.....unless white/blue collar business shifts away from the usual 9-5 mentality...then it will be a slow progression to having enough customers through the door post 9pm.....
For now the focus should be on the weekends......places such as coles in west-end or woollies at annerley shutting doors at 5pm saturdays and 6pm sundays...we need a shift towards 9pm 7day trading in a lot of these high density areas........gasworks,hamilton harbour,newfarm have it nailed.....newfarm is the definitive test case for 7day 9pm trading.....a resounding success 

[#Metro]

WHAT!?

Oh, NO the cows will stop giving milk and the curtains might turn yellow!

[verbatim9]

not enough people shop late at night( weekdays post 9pm) period.....which defeats the purpose of staying open.....unless white/blue collar business shifts away from the usual 9-5 mentality...then it will be a slow progression to having enough customers through the door post 9pm.....
For now the focus should be on the weekends......places such as coles in west-end or woollies at annerley shutting doors at 5pm saturdays and 6pm sundays...we need a shift towards 9pm 7day trading in a lot of these high density areas........gasworks,hamilton harbour,newfarm have it nailed.....newfarm is the definitive test case for 7day 9pm trading.....a resounding success 

Yes Gas works always seems to be busy on a Sunday night. If it's  going to be a staged relaxation, then weekends first 7am-9pm Sat/Sun in the Se corner. I still beleive in taking away the responsibility of the commission to set hours and have retail deregulation. Where hours are set on demand by the store. We will see as @Hu0N stated something similar to Syd/Mel where stores will be open till mostly 11pm. The busses will then have to be tweaked to travel bi-directional catering for staff to get home and to encourage customers to use the service. (There are some bi-directional lines now at present until after 11pm 199/City&Maroon Glider and the 111 I beleive).

[techblitz]

Southbank is a classic.......both stations are still fairly busy latenight yet the local corner store(foodworks) closes at 7pm  ...whoever is first to setup a 7day-10/11pm supermarket there will do very well for themsleves...right around cinemas and dining precint will be ideal....

[James]

I think we're all missing the point here. Your speciality stores, fashion shops etc. all close at 5:30pm (excl. Thursdays) or earlier, and this is the reason why shopping precincts are dead. Try going to one of the majors at 6pm on a Friday night - it is like a morgue!
Sure, there are already stores open until 9pm, but they are mostly your major supermarkets and your Kmarts/Big Ws of the world, and this only happens on weekdays.

Instead of allowing just the major shops to open until midnight, we'd find more success allowing all shops to open between 7am and 9pm, 7 days per week. Weekends are a particular area which needs improvement. It is insane that the shops close at 5pm on a Saturday.

Southbank is a classic.......both stations are still fairly busy latenight yet the local corner store(foodworks) closes at 7pm  ...whoever is first to setup a 7day-10/11pm supermarket there will do very well for themsleves...right around cinemas and dining precint will be ideal....

That's not to do with trading hours (I believe) as the store probably counts as a 'small business' which is exempt from the rules (much like your inner city IGAs, e.g. St Lucia). The business probably just needs a better manager or someone who is willing to try opening later. At the very least, you'd be able to get some drunks needing a feed.

[verbatim9]

Southbank is a classic.......both stations are still fairly busy latenight yet the local corner store(foodworks) closes at 7pm  ...whoever is first to setup a 7day-10/11pm supermarket there will do very well for themsleves...right around cinemas and dining precint will be ideal....

Woolworths is opening mid this year @ Southbank Station. Yes that convenience store could do better offering more healthier on the go foods and be open later until 10 or 11pm. (midnight on weekends). IGA South Brisbane on Melbourne St has a good set up but should be at least open until 11pm.

[#Metro]

Demand is lower later, and workers need to be paid penalty rates. So I think there will be a closing time around 10 pm, few locations would actually go all night.

[hU0N]

I think we're all missing the point here. Your speciality stores, fashion shops etc. all close at 5:30pm (excl. Thursdays) or earlier, and this is the reason why shopping precincts are dead. Try going to one of the majors at 6pm on a Friday night - it is like a morgue!

That's what I mean about core trading hours. Specialty shops aren't closing at 5:30 because they have to. They are subject to the same rules as the supermarkets, and could trade the same hours.

The reason they are not open in the evenings (except Thurs) is because landlords are not legally able to force them to stay open past 5:30 (except on Thurs, when landlords can legally force the shop to stay open until 9).

Although they have the option to stay open, most specialty shops close as soon as they are permitted to do so because the hours after 5:30 are, as long as most shops are closed, not profitable hours. If landlords and retailers were allowed to negotiate later core trading hours, then perhaps some specialty shops would open later in the morning and stay open later at night, building acceptance of later trading in the community and generating the evening foot traffic to encourage other stores to do likewise. But as long as the government forces landlords to set core trading hours that favour morning trade, specialty retailers will use up their budget of unprofitable hours during the day and close as soon in the evening as they are permitted to do so.

[verbatim9]

I think we're all missing the point here. Your speciality stores, fashion shops etc. all close at 5:30pm (excl. Thursdays) or earlier, and this is the reason why shopping precincts are dead. Try going to one of the majors at 6pm on a Friday night - it is like a morgue!

That's what I mean about core trading hours. Specialty shops aren't closing at 5:30 because they have to. They are subject to the same rules as the supermarkets, and could trade the same hours.

The reason they are not open in the evenings (except Thurs) is because landlords are not legally able to force them to stay open past 5:30 (except on Thurs, when landlords can legally force the shop to stay open until 9).

Although they have the option to stay open, most specialty shops close as soon as they are permitted to do so because the hours after 5:30 are, as long as most shops are closed, not profitable hours. If landlords and retailers were allowed to negotiate later core trading hours, then perhaps some specialty shops would open later in the morning and stay open later at night, building acceptance of later trading in the community and generating the evening foot traffic to encourage other stores to do likewise. But as long as the government forces landlords to set core trading hours that favour morning trade, specialty retailers will use up their budget of unprofitable hours during the day and close as soon in the evening as they are permitted to do so.

Agree department and clothing stores better off opening up at 10am going through to 7pm Supermarkets 7am-11pm 7 days where the demand lies. Disperses morning traffic congestion and afternoon peak. This will as peoples habits adjust create a more lively evening trade and foot traffic resulting in demand for Bi directional public transport throughout Se Qld especially on weekends.

[techblitz]

Southbank is a classic.......both stations are still fairly busy latenight yet the local corner store(foodworks) closes at 7pm  ...whoever is first to setup a 7day-10/11pm supermarket there will do very well for themsleves...right around cinemas and dining precint will be ideal....

Woolworths is opening mid this year @ Southbank Station. Yes that convenience store could do better offering more healthier on the go foods and be open later until 10 or 11pm. (midnight on weekends). IGA South Brisbane on Melbourne St has a good set up but should be at least open until 11pm.

Yea that IGA is fairly popular with 196 users...
excellent to hear of a southbank woollies:D

[achiruel]

Similar thing can be observed in Brisbane with IGA supermarkets (which are exempt from trading hour limits), in many higher density or closer in areas (Milton, East Brisbane, New Farm, Greenslopes, St Lucia) open till midnight, while the further outs mostly close at 10.

And here in the sticks out at Logan we have a not one but two Foodworks open 24/7 (actually I think they closes for a few public holidays (Good Friday, Anzac Day until 1pm and Xmas day from memory).

It shows that even out here there is demand for people to go shopping in the middle of the night. I've been there at 4am and the place is reasonably crowded!

[verbatim9]

Logan Foodworks open 24/7 (actually I think they closes for a few public holidays (Good Friday, Anzac Day until 1pm and Xmas day from memory).

It shows that even out here there is demand for people to go shopping in the middle of the night. I've been there at 4am and the place is reasonably crowded!

Yes there is more than the 9-5 economy in Qld. The thing is each time the National Retailers Association proposes some kind of deregulation for the majors in Qld it gets knocked back by the Qld Industrial commission, because Foodworks (MGA) disagrees as it eats into their revenue stream. A good proposal is to allow Foodworks as well as all other supermarkets big or small to be licensed to sell packaged liquor to compensate for any potential lost revenue they may incur when the majors get to open until 11pm. A fair deal and distributes the liquor sales throughout the retail sector. Unlike the monopoly Coles and Woolworths have on the liquor market, by buying 70% of all pubs and taverns in Qld, hence allowed to sell packaged liquor outside their stores. (Other states in Australia allow all their supermarkets to be licensed.)
Once the majors are allowed to open creating more of a eve/night time economy; There will be more of a demand for bi-direction Public Transport in Major Centres throughout Qld up until 11pm/midnight.

[DaylightTimes]

Add Daylight Saving in Queensland to the recipe for improvements in community safety during those much-needed later trading hours and everyone wins including a safer public transport network But those in our west are encouraged to watch this Daylight Saving clip to see how much Queensland is missing out, but our west (Eg. Mt Isa) can move in line with South Australia's Central Daylight Time (observed in Broken Hill, NSW) in aid of gaining similar benefits without a single sunset too late beyond 8 for them. See what you make of this for a share: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWsTy9s4h_o&feature=youtu.be 

[verbatim9]

Partial Deregulation of Retail Trading hours on the cards in Queensland

> http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2016/8/31/time-to-revisit-qlds-complex-confusing-and-costly-retail-trading-hours

Media Statements
JOINT STATEMENT
Treasurer, Minister for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Partnerships and Minister for Sport
The Honourable Curtis Pitt

Minister for Employment and Industrial Relations, Minister for Racing and Minister for Multicultural Affairs
The Honourable Grace Grace

Wednesday, August 31, 2016

Time to revisit Qld's complex, confusing and costly retail trading hours

The Palaszczuk Government will establish a reference group to consider how Queensland could maximise an estimated $200 million annual economic benefit from addressing anomalies in the State's retail trading hours.

Industrial Relations Minister Grace Grace said the current legislation governing trading hours was in need of modernisation to meet current community expectations and economic realities.

Ms Grace said in 2013, the Queensland Competition Authority report "Measuring and Reducing the Burden of Regulation", found the "potential for large net benefits from reform" of trading hours" restrictions of approximately $200 million.

"Queensland trading hours differ between and within regions," she said.

"This is a chance to introduce modern, contemporary arrangements that reflect the realities of the modern economy.

"This is about delivering sensible economic reform that benefits to the public, while delivering for workers and business."

Ms Grace said the Government was establishing a stakeholder panel and would appoint an independent reviewer to oversee the inquiry.

"The anomalies in existing trading hour arrangements may be viewed as limiting employment opportunities," she said.

"An expert panel comprising key stakeholders is required to develop trading hours that reflect the modern economy and consumers' preferences."

Stakeholder groups to be invited to join the reference panel, to be chaired by Associate Professor with the School of Justice at QUT and former Speaker of the Queensland Legislative Assembly John Mickel, include:

National Retail Association, Chamber of Commerce and Industry Queensland, Master Grocers Association, Queensland Tourism Industry Council, Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees' Association, United Voice and Queensland Council of Unions.

Tomorrow, Minister Grace will introduce a new Industrial Relations Bill 2016, including amendments to the Holidays Act 1983, to bring Queensland into line with the eastern States and Australian Capital Territory.

"Many Queenslanders think Easter Sunday is already a public holiday, like it is in New South Wales, Victoria and the ACT," she said.

"These amendments will end this confusion and bring Queensland into line with our biggest interstate trading partners."

"Declaring Easter Sunday as a public holiday recognises its religious and cultural significance and ensures that workers required to work on that day are treated the same as they would be if they worked the Good Friday, Easter Saturday and Easter Monday public holidays."

"We'll continue to consult with all relevant stakeholders."

Examples of current complexities and anomalies:

    On a Saturday shops close at 5pm, on a Sunday they can trade until 6pm
    In Townsville, shops can open at 9am in the designated tourist zone, but can't start until 11am in the rest of Townsville.
    There is a cap of 20 employees for businesses to fit into the category of independent retail shops.
    There are over 30 different zones that can have seven day trade

[SurfRail]

It's really not that hard:

- Completely deregulate permissible trading hours so that the only restriction on when any retail activity can occur anywhere in the State is on ANZAC Day

- Establish a consistent set of core trading hours for the entire State (ie the hours during which the landlord can require a tenant to be open for trade), which would only be applicable to retail shopping centres (ie 5 or more retail shops).

Fixed.

[verbatim9]

Agree!

[STB]

It's really not that hard:

- Completely deregulate permissible trading hours so that the only restriction on when any retail activity can occur anywhere in the State is on ANZAC Day

- Establish a consistent set of core trading hours for the entire State (ie the hours during which the landlord can require a tenant to be open for trade), which would only be applicable to retail shopping centres (ie 5 or more retail shops).

Fixed.

While I don't personally recognise Christmas, I assume you'd also include Christmas Day as a regulated day for opening hours?

[achiruel]

Why Christmas and not Jewish or Islamic holy days?

[verbatim9]

Independent stores can still open 24 hours 365days a year if they wish This is for non exempt stores Coles Woolies and Aldi + Kmart Myer DJs etc...Predominantly Qld is a Christian State even though has a mixture of Culture and religion laws are based around those values. But saying that everyone can still write to Grace Grace or your local Mp to express different views. I would be happy with partial Deregulation 7am-11pm 7 days except Xmas day Good Fri and 1/2day Anzac. Then full Deregulation when industry adjusts.  All supermarkets and Department stores Independent or chained should also have the opportunity to be licensed to sell packaged liquor as in NSW.

[SurfRail]

While I don't personally recognise Christmas, I assume you'd also include Christmas Day as a regulated day for opening hours?

Nope.  I don't see a reason to.  ANZAC Day is meant to be a day of national remembrance and is the only thing I think justifies compelling people to stay closed, and even then it wouldn't necessarily stop afternoon openings.

Core trading hours would probably continue to exclude Sundays and public holidays, which just means you can't be forced to open on those days.  I don't see anything wrong with being able to open on those days if you want - most people wouldn't which is fine.

[tazzer9]

Easter sunday is already a sunday which generally has pretty high penalty rates. Most establishments don't even open on easter sunday anyway.
I don't think any one day should be exempt as different public holidays mean different things to different people.  I don't think one is more important than another.

When it comes to extra wages and opening hours, I would think Labor day is the most significant anyway. 

[verbatim9]

Easter sunday is already a sunday which generally has pretty high penalty rates. Most establishments don't even open on easter sunday anyway.
I don't think any one day should be exempt as different public holidays mean different things to different people.  I don't think one is more important than another.

When it comes to extra wages and opening hours, I would think Labor day is the most significant anyway.

Currently closed on Labor Day except for Independent IGAs. Make your views known write to Grace Grace

[verbatim9]

Business and industry groups welcome Qld trading hours review https://t.co/K2D22e7N3p

National Retail Association backs Queensland Government's latest move: https://t.co/oXZvOnGrzb

Good timing with the SEQ Bus timetable review. We will probably see better loads on PT in SEQ on Sat and Sun eves/nights when later retail trading hours are introduced.

[SurfRail]

^ to the extent there are even buses running after 5pm...

[verbatim9]

^^Yes that's something that needs to be discussed in the SEQ Bus timetable review. There will be a need for more PT after 5 on a Saturday and Sunday

[verbatim9]

South-east Queensland trading hours extended

Major south-east Queensland stores will be able to open longer with the state's industrial relations commission unanimously granting an extension of trading hours.

The changes, which will come into play on December 1, will mean major retailers can open from 7am to 9pm Monday to Saturday.

[wbj]

And according to voodoo economics, the State's economy will be boosted by $111 million because we will have more hours to shop.  Can't wait to get my $55.50 share; wonder where I'll spend it.

[verbatim9]

On 9 News this eve a BCC spokesperson mentioned  Transport options would need to be looked at on Sat eve. I definitely agree Frequency might need to be improved out to Centenary on Sat eve, alongside other routes which may need improved frequency, because of the change 👍 A win for everyone, Public Transport users, Retail customers and Business.

[James]

Perhaps this could herald the start of the GCL running half-hourly on Saturdays instead of hourly? Less downgrading of bus frequency on weekends?

We can only dream.

[Gazza]

And according to voodoo economics, the State's economy will be boosted by $111 million because we will have more hours to shop.  Can't wait to get my $55.50 share; wonder where I'll spend it.

I think extra spending is a likely outcome. It's easy to see that later opening on Saturdays might lead to an improptu BBQ or stuff like that being a possibility.

[wbj]

And according to voodoo economics, the State's economy will be boosted by $111 million because we will have more hours to shop.  Can't wait to get my $55.50 share; wonder where I'll spend it.

I think extra spending is a likely outcome. It's easy to see that later opening on Saturdays might lead to an improptu BBQ or stuff like that being a possibility.

So where does the extra income appear from to cover the extra expenditure?  And the sales of such inpromptu purchases are likely to occur at the major supermarket chains at the cost of the few remaining corner stores who have little going for them besides trading at hours when the supermarkets have closed.

BTW, I don't see those inpromptu purchases being made via public transport.

Is there any data on public transport usage between 7 and 10 pm on Thursday nights at suburban locations compared with Tuesday and Wednesday nights?  This might indicate the upper limit of impact of extended shopping hours on public transport usage.

[#Metro]

So where does the extra income appear from to cover the extra expenditure?  And the sales of such inpromptu purchases are likely to occur at the major supermarket chains at the cost of the few remaining corner stores who have little going for them besides trading at hours when the supermarkets have closed.

We could look at the opposite view - ban all trading on Saturday and Sunday.

What are the effects?

Overall amount to spend might not change that much - people would shift to shopping just after work on weekdays, but that is not ideal. People have other things to do then, particularly if they have children and after school activities.

People want the convenience of shopping on the weekend and don't want to shop at the overpriced local 7-11 if they have the choice.

Similarly, why should people only be allowed to shop late on Thursday night or Friday night. That's a very 1950s approach to things.

What is the purpose of these restrictions? Is anyone likely to end up in hospital as a result of extended trading hours?

I once lived near a 24/7 Coles supermarket. If I wanted to go shopping at 1 am on a Sunday night I could. Even though I did not use it at those times very often, I still valued the option of having it there.

And clearly, Coles thought it was profitable for them to stay open that long also.

I would think workers with non-standard hours and CBD dwellers (more apartments going up in the CBD nowadays) would also value it.

Generally businesses can figure out their own trading hours, only big stuff like Christmas Day etc need to be regulated as holidays or early closes.

If people don't want to work then, just black it out on your work availability sheet.

[techblitz]

Is there any data on public transport usage between 7 and 10 pm on Thursday nights at suburban locations compared with Tuesday and Wednesday nights?  This might indicate the upper limit of impact of extended shopping hours on public transport usage.

cant give you data but 120/125 observations ex garden city Thursday nights.
garden city woolworths is chaotic on Thursday evening...right up till closing time where you can easily have 100 people still in the store at that time. Way less shoppers on a Tuesday/wed night at 9pm..
Garden city is an exception to the norm though as lots of Griffith students do their late night shopping on Thursday.Resulting in both well loaded 125`s and 120`s(duplicated routes).
I suspect toowong(has the busiest coles in QLD last time I heard)... would be similarly busy late night due to high student numbers/late working professionals.....

[James]

So where does the extra income appear from to cover the extra expenditure?  And the sales of such inpromptu purchases are likely to occur at the major supermarket chains at the cost of the few remaining corner stores who have little going for them besides trading at hours when the supermarkets have closed.

BTW, I don't see those inpromptu purchases being made via public transport.

Is there any data on public transport usage between 7 and 10 pm on Thursday nights at suburban locations compared with Tuesday and Wednesday nights?  This might indicate the upper limit of impact of extended shopping hours on public transport usage.

This is because public transport is not very impromptu, particularly when you have to wait up to an hour for it. Also - car. Most people drive, it is the way of the world. PT is there for the purpose of welfare to ensure people working these late shifts can get home and that the added convenience is accessible if you don't have a car. And it won't just be your Coles and Woolies opening late - so will your Kmarts and Targets. This is a real plus.

To give one example, one time my friend and I were going to a party, so we went out and bought some alcohol and some food at around 5:30 in the afternoon. All the supermarkets were closed, so we ended up just buying a bottle of coke at extortionate convenience store prices and leaving it at that.

Also, the extra hours worked will give people more money, who will then spend more, which will give those people more money... the money flows through the economy more than once. If you give someone $100, it will produce a net benefit to the economy of a lot more than that because people will spend that money (or put it into savings, which will allow the bank to give the money to others to spend).

[Gazza]

To give one example, one time my friend and I were going to a party, so we went out and bought some alcohol and some food at around 5:30 in the afternoon. All the supermarkets were closed, so we ended up just buying a bottle of coke at extortionate convenience store prices and leaving it at that.

James gets it. Basically its a case of we can get fatter now if we want to. Plenty of times I've wanted to get something late on a weekend evening but have just gone without instead. It's no real stretch to believe that it will cause a small increase in consumption because it's just that little bit easier to spend rather than save.

Anyway, I reckon the policy makes sense. Supermarkets already have the lights on and staff in at night doing nightfill, might as well chuck on one extra staff member to run a checkout, and make a bit of extra money. You see this at the Skygate woolies in the wee hours. Most of the staff on are night fillers, and there is one person at the front keeping and eye on self serve, and occasionally opening a checkout if someone turns up with a full trolley.

[verbatim9]

All Kmart, Coles and Woolworths will trade 7-9 permanently. The others will trade the new hours but review if patronage is not sufficient. Quote from Qirc Report/Order - Published decisions via their website

Target 22 stores will trade all available hours
Target Small 4 will extend hours, then review
Big W 27 will extend hours, then review
Kmart 29 will trade all available hours
Myer 11 will extend hours, then review
Coles 106 will trade all available hours
Woolworths 138 will trade all available hours"