• Welcome to RAIL - Back On Track Forum.
 

New timetables for the Caboolture and Sunshine Coast lines

Started by ozbob, October 28, 2015, 16:36:41 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ozbob

New timetables for the Caboolture and Sunshine Coast lines

http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-notices/62896/details#.VjBrRR0WAr4.twitter ...

When opened in mid-2016, Moreton Bay Rail Link (MBRL) trains will share the existing rail line with Caboolture and Sunshine Coast services from Petrie to Brisbane's CBD.

This means the introduction of trains on the new line is a great opportunity to review the timetables on the northern rail corridor.
Features of the new timetables

TransLink and Queensland Rail last changed the Caboolture and Sunshine Coast timetables in 2011. Since then, we've listened to your feedback saying you want more express services and reduced journey times.

The new timetables will:

    provide express services all day, every day, in both directions
    simplify stopping patterns
    reduce travel times by up to 13 minutes
    add two extra inbound, off-peak services to the Sunshine Coast each weekday
    replace Nambour to Caboolture shuttle trains with full Nambour to Brisbane Central services.

The draft timetables are available now:

    Caboolture line (PDF, 372KB)

    Sunshine Coast line (PDF, 253KB)
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

Derwan

You'd think they'd review the whole sector - and include the Ipswich/Springfield line as well.
Website   |   Facebook   |  Twitter

ozbob

Quote from: Derwan on October 28, 2015, 16:50:22 PM
You'd think they'd review the whole sector - and include the Ipswich/Springfield line as well.

Yo!  I understand this will be the next thing after MBRL etc. bedded down.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

ozbob

Some significant improvements for the Sunny Coast and Caboolture lines.

Well done Queensland Rail !   
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

ozbob

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

ozbob

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

SurfRail

The service at Northgate appears to involve trains departing for the city at the same time on both sector 1 and 2 in the off-peak, unless I'm reading something wrong.

Want to get from Virginia to Nundah?  15 minute wait. 

Having said that the extra peak runs are welcome, as is the fact Northgate to Roma Street will be running on weekends.  (These should all be running at least as far as Manly of course...)
Ride the G:

BrizCommuter

Draft inner-city timetable.
http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/travel-information/service-updates/mbrl/151001-inner-north-draft-timetable.PDF

Nundah and Wooloowin situation not as bad as expected - thank god! ?? 8tph peak (but haven't read in detail).

Need to review in more detail, to make sure services not removed from other lines!


James

Nundah - Albion stand to seriously benefit from this table. They've got frequency and span of hours which is even better than many parts of the BUZ network! I'm impressed. And services on weekends too! Potential for these to get extended to Cannon Hill/Manly in the future? Sadly, that's where my "impressed" part ends. Of course, there's the lack of 15 minute frequency to Kippa Ring. Then there's the lack of hourly frequency up to Nambour, and the lack of any sort of upgrade to the Ipswich/Springfield lines.

All in all, mixed feelings. This is very good stuff given we're in Queensland. It'd be mediocre anywhere else in the world, but I guess we should be thankful for what we have. The pollies could always be tearing up the NCL and putting in a motorway in its place. :-r
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?


STB

Quote from: BrizCommuter on October 28, 2015, 20:39:29 PM
The BrizCommuter review of the draft timetables:
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/new-sector-1-draft-timetables-verdict.html

I think it's pretty obvious that the new timetables won't start until after enough NGR units arrive and drivers are qualified, so mid 2016 seems to be the big hint here (I'm guessing sometime between July and October 2016).

And I always figured that they would put in additional Northgate starters to fill in the gaps of the Caboolture trains that will now run express past Toombul and Nundah in particular.  So I kinda knew your fears were unfounded and speculative quite early on, sorry. ;)

BrizCommuter

Quote from: STB on October 28, 2015, 21:19:49 PM
Quote from: BrizCommuter on October 28, 2015, 20:39:29 PM
The BrizCommuter review of the draft timetables:
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2015/10/new-sector-1-draft-timetables-verdict.html

I think it's pretty obvious that the new timetables won't start until after enough NGR units arrive and drivers are qualified, so mid 2016 seems to be the big hint here (I'm guessing sometime between July and October 2016).

And I always figured that they would put in additional Northgate starters to fill in the gaps of the Caboolture trains that will now run express past Toombul and Nundah in particular.  So I kinda knew your fears were unfounded and speculative quite early on, sorry. ;)

Well at least BrizCommuter can now sleep easier whilst thinking of people commuting from Nundah!
Though now concerned about lack of trains and reliability at 22tph. As previously thought, the opening of MBRL is likely to be delayed until their are enough NGRs.

Fares_Fair

#12
The draft Sunshine Coast timetable (for when the Moreton Bay Rail Link opens in 2016) is a welcome change..

For the first time in over 5 years, some of our journey lengths have reduced in time, some by around 6 minutes in peak times (e.g. the 5:01am, 5:56am and 6:20am southbound trains from Nambour).
The majority of our express legs have been modified to now consistently run Petrie to Northgate to Eagle Junction to Bowen Hills.
The Gympie North train express legs are modified, and now run express Caboolture to Bowen Hills with extra stops between at Petrie and Northgate.

There is also a reduction in the dreaded Rail Buses that supplement our week daily trains, from 13 per day in each direction back to 8 per day each direction.
4 of these comprised the 1 northbound and 3 southbound rail buses that just ran between Nambour and Landsborough, they're gone.

Southbound gems... One is the 4:30pm train that currently takes 2 and half hours. It will save 30 minutes and take 2 hours.
Second gem is the new 9:08am train which will save 25 minutes (1:52minutes) compared to the current 9:13am service (2:17minutes).

A few journeys have also become 2 minutes longer and a few are 2 minutes shorter.
The proposed 5:33pm southbound train will take 10 minutes longer than the current 5:39pm train.
It is a bit of a mixed bag, but a good move in the right direction time-wise overall.

I have begun my analysis of the entire timetable which will show total journey times and average journey lengths for all northbound and southbound trains, including weekends.
It will provide a list of the fastest and slowest trains between Gympie North / Nambour to Roma Street Brisbane on our Sunshine Coast line.
It will highlight the remaining 16 rail bus services (best avoided) if time is of the essence.

Regards,
Fares_Fair


Arnz

^^

Another big win is that the Sunshine Coast Line's stopping patterns are more than halved.  Going from 7 (including Rail-Rail and Railbus-Rail transfers) to only 3 stopping patterns.

1. Petrie - Northgate - Eagle Junction - Bowen Hills & v.v  (The standard for the majority of services)
2. Caboolture - Petrie - Northgate - Bowen Hills & v.v (Gympie North & selected peak Nambour services)
3. RailBus to Rail transfers (x8 Weekday off-peak buses).

Excluding the Gympielanders, the Caboolture Line also gets their stopping patterns halved.  From 2 to 1 universal stopping pattern, which is shared with the Nambour trains.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

petey3801

Quote from: Derwan on October 28, 2015, 16:50:22 PM
You'd think they'd review the whole sector - and include the Ipswich/Springfield line as well.

That's something that i'm rather peev'd about as well. One would think it would be a good idea to do the whole sector at the same time, especially considering the only thing that needs doing (well, only thing that will be done, is more the wording for it...) is to fix the span of hours (particularly for Springfield, but also for Ipswich in the morning) and get rid of the hourly trains on Sunday morning.
All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect those held by my employer.

ozbob

Sent to all outlets:

29th October 2015

Moreton Bay Rail Link - timetable improvements & consultation - Sector One changes

Greetings,

Announced yesterday by the Deputy Premier in Parliament was that consultation for the draft rail and improved bus timetables for Moreton Bay region will commence on Monday 2 November 2015.

We are delighted that there will be a detailed community consultation process and has been something we have advocated strongly for.  Getting the community onside will improve mobility options for the region.

Also detailed yesterday were the draft rail timetables for the Sector 1: Sunshine Coast and Caboolture lines.  Improved running times and express services will mean significant benefits to the community.

We have some concerns with not improving both the Sector 1: Springfield and Ipswich line timetables, particularly not addressing the span of hours of the timetables and hourly timetable on Sunday mornings.  Counter peak frequency needs improvement as well.

Off peak rail services at 30 minutes is not optimal, in time when more trains are available we would like to see off peak services at 15 minute frequency on Moreton Bay Rail Link, Caboolture, Springfield and Ipswich Lines.

However, overall the changes announced yesterday are very promising and will help to improve mobility for the community.

We wait for details of the bus changes for Moreton Bay region, however the Deputy Premier did say in parliament* yesterday that:

" The proposed bus timetables will make it easier for residents to connect with the high-frequency rail
services and there will be improved connections to community hubs. The draft timetable includes an
addition of 147 bus trips every weekday, as well as increased operating hours and 15-minute frequency
on key routes during peak periods. The proposed bus routes will mean that some areas will have access
to public transport for the very first time—parts like Griffin and Petrie. We are kicking off consultation
with residents on our plans to deliver an easy to use and integrated network. Consultation on the draft
timetables will be open for six weeks. We will hold nine community information sessions across the
region on weekdays and weekends where people can find out about the new timetables and speak with
TransLink planners. "


*https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2015/2015_10_28_DAILY.pdf

Thanks to Queensland Rail and TransLink for their ongoing efforts.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

New timetables for the Caboolture and Sunshine Coast lines
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11765.0

Have your say on the proposed Moreton Bay Region
http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-notices/62061/details
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

QLDBUS

Is there a possibility that trains from Kippa-Ring will continue to Springfield Central and vice versa? Because looking at the Inner North timetable, most KR trains come from/continue to Springfield Central. If that's so, we'll all know what the colour of the Kippa-Ring timetable would be now  ;)

Arnz

Quote from: tycool01@hotmail.com on October 29, 2015, 20:08:55 PM
Is there a possibility that trains from Kippa-Ring will continue to Springfield Central and vice versa? Because looking at the Inner North timetable, most KR trains come from/continue to Springfield Central. If that's so, we'll all know what the colour of the Kippa-Ring timetable would be now  ;)

The inner north timetable pretty much gave out the answer to your question ;)
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

pandmaster

#18
Overall very positive. It is a relief that Nundah and Toombul did not get left out.

Shame on QR for not having the weekend Roma Street to Northgate services run to Cannon Hill as the weekday service does. Firstly it is confusing and secondly the inner Cleveland line deserves the frequency on weekends. Why would anyone choose to use the train on weekends when the frequency is so poor and CBD parking costs $5?

Arnz

Quote from: pandmaster on October 29, 2015, 21:20:16 PM
Shame on QR for not having the weekend Roma Street to Northgate services run to Cannon Hill as the weekday service does. Firstly it is confusing and secondly the inner Cleveland line deserves the frequency on weekends.

Agree. 

Alternatively, terminate the Saturday Doomben trains at Roma Street Platform 3 - so they are out of the way of the mainline, and extend the weekend Northgate short-runners to Park Road in its place.
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

Fares_Fair

Current Weekday Timetable Southbound
Total 150 services per week (includes 65 Rail Buses)

Current Weekday Timetable Northbound
Total 160 services per week (includes 65 Rail Buses)

Total 310 services per week (includes 130 Rail Buses)
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Fares_Fair

#21
Proposed mid-2016 Weekday Timetable Southbound
Total 136 services per week (includes 40 Rail Buses)

Proposed mid-2016 Weekday Timetable Northbound
Total 140 services per week (includes 40 Rail Buses)

Total 276 services per week (includes 80 Rail Buses)

A reduction of 10.97% in total services to/from the Sunshine Coast

Some Rail Bus journeys have become longer, journey total up to 3 hours 18 minutes (northbound) and 3 hours 7 minutes (southbound)

I have similarly assessed the weekend journeys, the total number of services remains unchanged southbound and northbound, however times do vary.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Arnz

I've put up another comparison breakdown (Rail only and Bus only)

Current Weekday timetable - Rail only services
Southbound: 85 rail services
Northbound: 95 rail services

Bus only
Southbound: 65 Bus services
Northbound: 65 Bus services

Mid 2016 Weekday (Proposed draft) timetable
Rail only services
Southbound: 96 rail services (+11 train services)
Northbound: 100 rail services (+5 train services)

Bus only
Southbound: 40 bus services (-15 bus services)
Northbound: 40 bus services (-15 bus services)

As noted earlier, the cuts were mainly the short-running railbuses. (Caboolture-Landsborough and Landsborough-Nambour only short runs)
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

ozbob

I think it has more coherence to look at rail and bus separately.

The new timetables are a huge improvement, even if the combined total number of services rail-bus and rail are less.

Hopefully when more trains/crew available the rail-bus journeys can be removed completely.

Edit:  Thanks Arnz I see you just posted that now.

Makes it look very different hey?
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

Fares_Fair

#24
Quote from: Arnz on October 31, 2015, 18:57:40 PM
I've put up another comparison breakdown (Rail only and Bus only)

Current Weekday timetable - Rail only services
Southbound: 85 rail services
Northbound: 95 rail services

Bus only
Southbound: 65 Bus services
Northbound: 65 Bus services

Mid 2016 Weekday (Proposed draft) timetable
Rail only services
Southbound: 96 rail services (+11 train services)
Northbound: 100 rail services (+5 train services)

Bus only
Southbound: 40 bus services (-25 bus services)
Northbound: 40 bus services (-25 bus services)

As noted earlier, the cuts were mainly the short-running railbuses. (Caboolture-Landsborough and Landsborough-Nambour only short runs)

Thank you for the clarification Arnz.
All good.
There's a total weekly reduction of 50 Rail Buses (and I concur on their lack of uselfulness) and they are replaced by just 16 trains = 34 reduction in total weekly services.

I expect more services to be added when the Woombye rail stabling is completed, with reports of an extra 9 daily trains (4 southbound, 5 northbound) possible [according to Hon. Peter Wellington MP] and Queensland Rail (EDIT 3.11.2015)

Given that there is a reduction in total weekly services of 34, I find it totally misleading to say that there are 2 'extra' train services.
Is that a wrong conclusion do you think?

They have listened to us in that we wanted more express services (now all day) and shorter journey times.
That message got through.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Arnz

Quote from: Fares_Fair on October 31, 2015, 21:08:46 PM
Given that there is a reduction in total weekly services of 34, I find it totally misleading to say that there are 2 'extra' train services.
Is that a wrong conclusion do you think?

They have listened to us in that we wanted more express services (now all day) and shorter journey times.
That message got through.

I wouldn't say misleading at all, considering all TransLink advertising were stating that was "2 new inbound off-peak weekday services" across all social media posts.

Had TransLink advertised it as "2 new return services", then it would be considered as misleading (technically it would be 1.5 services).  But TransLink did not advertise it as such (instead choosing to use the 2 inbound services, and stats confirms it to be the case).
Rgds,
Arnz

Unless stated otherwise, Opinions stated in my posts are those of my own view only.

#Metro

Wow, service on the Sunshine Coast line is a shocker. No matter which way you look at it.
Yes, I realise my comment is unhelpful and will contribute nothing, but still.

At least with the most recent proposed improvements it will be slightly less bad now.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Fares_Fair

It may be semantics but I think that if you remove 34 services, then any additional ones are just replacing the (rail bus) removed ones.
In this case the removed services significantly outnumber the 'new'.

I guess it highlights the fact that the removed 5 daily (southbound) rail buses were replaced with 2 daily (southbound) trains.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


hU0N

I never really got the rail buses. Since the advent of translink, what is QR doing running buses parallel to the Sunshine Coast main line? I mean, obviously it's to supplement the infrequent rail service, but if the demand outstrips the rail frequency enough to justify running buses, why not just run more trains? Is it lack of train paths? Because if it's lack of train sets or drivers, how is maintaining and running a fleet of buses any better than having more trains and drivers?

aldonius

Lack of train paths. Single track, lots of freighters (which are actually profitable)...

ozbob

Quote from: Fares_Fair on October 31, 2015, 22:08:57 PM
It may be semantics but I think that if you remove 34 services, then any additional ones are just replacing the (rail bus) removed ones.
In this case the removed services significantly outnumber the 'new'.

I guess it highlights the fact that the removed 5 daily (southbound) rail buses were replaced with 2 daily (southbound) trains.

Much more potential pax capacity, additional rail 1500 pax compared to bus loss of 300, so overall gain of 1200.

This is a good outcome.  Also rail a lot quicker journey time and safer in fact.

Replacing Nambour <> Caboolture shuttle trains with full Nambour <> Brisbane Central services is great as well.

I am grateful for the improvements.  More to come too I reckon.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

ozbob

Quote from: hU0N on November 01, 2015, 00:28:41 AM
I never really got the rail buses. Since the advent of translink, what is QR doing running buses parallel to the Sunshine Coast main line? I mean, obviously it's to supplement the infrequent rail service, but if the demand outstrips the rail frequency enough to justify running buses, why not just run more trains? Is it lack of train paths? Because if it's lack of train sets or drivers, how is maintaining and running a fleet of buses any better than having more trains and drivers?

It was always a second best option to cover the lack of trains, staff and infrastructure essentially.  Hopefully they will be gone with the next major update.

I have travelled on them a number of times.  Not ideal but when there is no other alternative it provides some sort of service.  They have never really been high patronage, although useful at times.

A recent experience on the rail-bus by Stillwater ...

Quote from: Stillwater on October 31, 2015, 07:49:08 AM
If those Black Ops fellas ever want to torture for information a difficult prisioner they suspect of threatening national security, the most excruciating pain could be inflicted by strapping them into a seat on the Caboolture-Nambour all-stops rail bus.  I reckon it would take about three trips before they would want to spill their guts – either way, talk or vomit.  I took the trip northbound yesterday.  The bus travels up hill and down dale along a route even yesterday's bus driver admitted sometimes causes him to get lost.  About 12 people on board.  The countryside is scenic.  You just have to adjust your mind and tell yourself you are not a commuter, but a group of pensioners on a magical mystery tour.  It is the only way to maintain your sanity.
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

ozbob

Quote from: LD Transit on October 31, 2015, 22:04:29 PM
Wow, service on the Sunshine Coast line is a shocker. No matter which way you look at it.
Yes, I realise my comment is unhelpful and will contribute nothing, but still.

At least with the most recent proposed improvements it will be slightly less bad now.

Hence the effort on getting the track amplification. However, incremental improvements are better than none.

The other area that could be improved is frequency between Nambour and Gympie.  There is a lot of potential pax just waiting for a more frequent service.  As Nambour and the rail towns & hinterland continues to develop this is becoming more important.

We have highlighted this in the past e.g. > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9034.msg147601#msg147601
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
Ozbob's Gallery Forum   Facebook  Twitter  Mastodon - aus.social

Derwan

Quote from: LD Transit on October 31, 2015, 22:04:29 PM
Wow, service on the Sunshine Coast line is a shocker. No matter which way you look at it.
Yes, I realise my comment is unhelpful and will contribute nothing, but still.

At least with the most recent proposed improvements it will be slightly less bad now.

When you compare it to suburban services then yes, it looks like a shocker. I think it's important to remember that we're talking about services between cities, with a few smaller stations in between. It doesn't require a suburban-style timetable. These services require a higher proportion of taxpayer subsidy. Fares are extremely cheap when you compare them to long distance bus and train services.
Website   |   Facebook   |  Twitter

Stillwater

Suburban services, running at 15 minute frequencies, are subsidised also.  For every train running once an hour from the Sunshine Coast, four subsidised trains run through suburban stations.   It would be interesting to do the comparison -- the total cost of the subsidy for four suburban trains running, say, Northgate to Darra versus the cost of the subsidy on a single Nambour-Roma Street train (one an hour) OR the total cost of the subsidy Northgate-Darra for all-day operation versus the cost of the subsidy all day for Nambour trains.

Let's not forget also that the SCL makes money, or is 'subsidised' through freight rail operations.  No freight trains run to Ferny Grove or Shorncliffe.  Also, it is a single track line, theoretically half the maintenance costs of a dual track rolling through the suburbs.

achiruel

Quote from: Stillwater on November 03, 2015, 18:49:26 PM
Also, it is a single track line, theoretically half the maintenance costs of a dual track rolling through the suburbs.

I doubt that very much, seeing as the heaviest thing on the Shorncliffe and Ferny Grove lines is usually an SMU.  The heavier freight trains on the NCL would require far more maintenance of the rails.

colinw

... and the even heavier coalies from the west, more again.  The Main Line from Toowoomba now carries more tonnes per year than the NCL.  Likely the most heavily worn and expensive to maintain tracks in SEQ are the antiquated crossings of the Little Liverpool range and Main Range.

But I digress.  This p%ssing competition about whose service is most heavily subsidised is pointless, given that all are essential to the function of the SEQ region, the State, and the nation.  Subsidised they may be, but the alternative of more cars on roads is far worse, in both financial and social cost.

achiruel

Quote from: colinw on November 03, 2015, 19:37:51 PMSubsidised they may be, but the alternative of more cars on roads is far worse, in both financial and social cost.

:-t :-t :-t

Fares_Fair

#38
Quote from: ozbob on November 01, 2015, 04:05:57 AM
Quote from: LD Transit on October 31, 2015, 22:04:29 PM
Wow, service on the Sunshine Coast line is a shocker. No matter which way you look at it.
Yes, I realise my comment is unhelpful and will contribute nothing, but still.

At least with the most recent proposed improvements it will be slightly less bad now.

Hence the effort on getting the track amplification. However, incremental improvements are better than none.

The other area that could be improved is frequency between Nambour and Gympie.  There is a lot of potential pax just waiting for a more frequent service.  As Nambour and the rail towns & hinterland continues to develop this is becoming more important.

We have highlighted this in the past e.g. > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9034.msg147601#msg147601

That's a good point (the eservices to/from Gympie)  :-t
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Stillwater

^^ More students travelling between Gympie and Sunshine Coast campuses of the University of the Sunshine Coast.  USC plans major expansion of Gympie campus and has taken over uni campus at Hervey Bay from the University of Central Queensland.

http://www.gympietimes.com.au/news/usc-gympie-offer-first-year-science-and-engineerin/2829912

🡱 🡳