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Author Topic: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3  (Read 52225 times)

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2015, 08:49:31 AM »
http://www.gchaveyoursay.com.au/home-page/news_feed/have-your-say-on-light-rail-southern-gold-coast

Consultation materials now available.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2015, 06:35:18 PM »
Brisbanetimes --> Gold Coast light rail: Thousand suggestions from residents in just two days
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Offline LRV 018

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #42 on: December 18, 2015, 03:48:26 PM »
Gold Coast Bulletin — The possible routes for the future tram line: where will it go?

Offline LRV 018

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #43 on: December 18, 2015, 03:52:34 PM »
Gold Coast Bulletin — Bond University backs taking light rail stage three from Nobby Beach to central Robina

Offline LRV 018

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #44 on: December 18, 2015, 06:10:22 PM »
I strongly oppose a fair chunk of Gold Coast Council's NEW proposal of future tram extension routes (consultation now open; link a few posts above). I point out the 'new' part because it completely contradicts Council's 'Gold Coast City Transport Strategy 2031', which was released in March 2013 — I don't know how they changed their minds so quickly! Anyone who hasn't had a look can find it here. It can be noted that Tom Tate himself signed the document — it seems that he has taken a major backflip (coincidently Council elections coming up — methinks the backflip might have something to do with that!)

Just thought I'd add my opinion on the proposed 'ideas' that have been put forward by Council (potential stages 3 and greater) and see if there's anyone else out there who agrees that some of it is plain stupid.

• 'Idea 1' Broadbeach — Burleigh, straight down the Gold Coast Highway. [proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   This has my giant tick of approval :-t

• 'Idea 2' Nobby Beach — Robina heavy rail station, via:
        A) Cottesloe Drive & Cheltenham Drive [somewhat proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   and/or
        B) Bond Uni [somewhat proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   While I think both of these are very sensible and should be constructed, they should definitely NOT take priority over an extension to the airport first.

• 'Idea 3' Burleigh Heads — Varsity Lakes heavy rail, along Reedy Creek Road. [not proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   I don't think that it's necessary to have a spur line from the Gold Coast Highway to every single heavy rail station. That said, I don't completely oppose a Burleigh — Varsity connection. It is quite a tight corridor; lots of land resumptions would make this extension costly.

*This is where the :fp: starts*

• 'Idea 4' Varsity Lakes heavy rail — Gold Coast Airport, via the M1 :fp: [not proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   I'll try to keep my ranting to a minimum.
   Trams are designed for urban areas with high passenger catchment, to run slower (than a train), and stop more frequently — not ideal for the proposed M1 route! Any tram extension will potentially remove the future heavy rail corridor completely. The M1 corridor is much better suited to a Varsity — GC Airport TRAIN extension.
   Yes, this extension would cost less to build to get to the airport, but patronage would be nothing compared to the coastal alternative. Unfortunately the cheapness may cause some to prefer (and fight for) this as their preferred route.

• 'Idea 5' Burleigh Heads — Gold Coast Airport, via:
        A) Gold Coast Highway, Palm Beach Avenue, M1, The Pines, Stewart Road, Gold Coast Highway [somewhat proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   or
        B) Gold Coast Highway, Palm Beach Avenue, M1, The Pines, Tugun Bypass [not proposed in Transport Strategy 2031]
   Again, trams should not use the M1 for long distances, so B) via the Tugun Bypass is stupid. The cut-in along Palm Beach Ave is also stupid, in my opinion. Taking the Gold Coast Highway the whole way to the airport is the best option. Unfortunately this option hasn't even been considered in the survey.
   I might note that the Transport Strategy proposes going along Gold Coast Highway, cutting in along Thrower Drive to The Pines, down the M1 to Stewart Road, then back to the GC Hwy and through Tugun to the Airport. If it really is necessary to bypass Currumbin Hill, then this is the next best outcome. But, again, this wasn't something Council even wanted to include.

I'm interested to see what other RBOT members' opinions are.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2015, 06:33:33 PM »
I think it is a bit out of control. This is an LRT system, not an amusement roller coaster at Movie World.
Send the LRT in a straight line down the coast corridor to the airport. No spurs, no deviations, no figure 8 loops etc.

Everything else can be handled with the bus. There are buses that can handle 150 pax now, perfect for putting in the rungs of the ladder.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2015, 07:00:57 PM »
It's designed for public consultation - it's not about building the most popular option.  The coastal route seems to be winning in any event.

I have no doubt we will eventually see spur lines, after the coastal route is complete.  There is nothing wrong with them at all as long as they are employed judiciously.  The population and passenger density is much greater in the Southport-Broadbeach section than it will be on the other limbs, so there won't be a need to run the same headways to Helensvale that exist in the central portion (ie GCUH is a perfect branching point for Harbour Town and points north).

Remember the 1997 transport plan showed trams to Runaway Bay and a bunch of other locations.  This is not designed as an infrastructure plan, but a way of guiding planning and development decisions to make things easier once this infrastructure can be bedded in.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 06:42:33 PM by SurfRail »
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Offline techblitz

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2015, 05:31:11 PM »
prioity is the light rail for sure......helensvale -southport && broady to cooly......the savings mustered from the axing of the increasingly unreliant & costly 700 should take care of increased frequency for westbound bus services heading to all rail stations south of helensvale...plus pay for an increase in services from coomera/ormeau stations. A HF 761 express from varsity to currumbin should suffice for any paranoia about building heavy rail to the airport

Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2015, 05:28:48 AM »
Gold Coast Bulletin --> The possible routes for the future tram line: where will it go?
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2016, 04:02:30 AM »
Gold Coast Bulletin  --> New council report shows Gold Coast’s light rail extensions will cost more than $3 billion
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2016, 08:14:51 AM »
CUT the Robina section off. Use BRT to fill in the rungs of the 'ladder'.

This is the thing about LRT. It's expensive. And the standards and quality get higher and higher with time - which means it gets more expensive. Property prices also going up - any resumptions will cost more $$$

On the other hand, Gold Coast City Council is well placed because building LRT increases land values, and ultimately that does mean higher council rates/income.

GCCC need to look at relaxing planning laws to allow more building near the LRT. It is doing well so far.

$3BN is what has been spent on Gateway Motorway upgrades and Leo Hirschler Bridges IIRC. That was just a small section - in contrast, will be covering most of the GC.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2016, 08:34:07 AM »
CUT the Robina section off. Use BRT to fill in the rungs of the 'ladder'.

This is the thing about LRT. It's expensive. And the standards and quality get higher and higher with time - which means it gets more expensive. Property prices also going up - any resumptions will cost more $$$

On the other hand, Gold Coast City Council is well placed because building LRT increases land values, and ultimately that does mean higher council rates/income.

GCCC need to look at relaxing planning laws to allow more building near the LRT. It is doing well so far.

$3BN is what has been spent on Gateway Motorway upgrades and Leo Hirschler Bridges IIRC. That was just a small section - in contrast, will be covering most of the GC.

The entire point of the LRT is to encourage development around the corridor.  As we have seen pretty conclusively, that doesn't work with busways anywhere in this country.  Even where development sites are available in Brisbane eg around Buranda and Stones Corner, these have been sitting fallow for over a decade while stuff keeps popping up on the urban periphery. 

Brisbane has been getting denser but I don't know that you can attribute this to its bus-centric network, especially when the stand-out performers away from the CBD and CBD frame itself are places like Milton and Nundah on the railway.

Varsity Lakes is becoming quite densely populated and there are apartment buildings going up all over the shop.  The point is to encourage that trend to continue on an identifiable corridor.  Buses are not going to work - the market simply doesn't respond to them.

GCCC is very switched on about this stuff.  The new 2015 City Plan already provides for unrestricted heights in a lot of locations adjacent to the current route and for medium rise in places near the route and along future components of the route (eg the stretch from Broadbeach to Nobby Beach).

The coastal route from Helensvale to Coolangatta is the priority.  After that, I have no trouble whatsoever with staged extensions being deployed judiciously to facilitate further growth.  It's unlikely that the entire corridor needs to run at the same timetable - south of Burleigh and north of GCUH are quieter and even without branches you could conceivably run short-workings in future versions of the timetable to maximise the frequency on the inner section.  Alternately, you stick in some branches - these also have the effect of enabling more frequent service on the common stretch because you spread the turnback limitations among 2 or more ends without needing to build looped ends, which are not possible with the current 2 terminuses or due to the 6 island platforms.

BRT on the Gold Coast should be limited to on-road bus lanes, bus priority treatments at intersections, short sections of reserve running or green-links where useful and high quality stops so the cost isn't inflated beyond the benefits.  Plenty of corridors where this would be of benefit which are unlikely to ever see a tram (eg the 735, 740 and 745 corridors out of Nerang, the 704 corridor from Helensvale to Southport etc).  However, Robina is one of 3 principal regional activity centres in the city and one of only 2 which actually exists at present (the others are Southport and Coomera), it has major trip generators en route, high population growth and high development potential.  It would be short-sighted to discount the viability of LRT based on what is there now compared to what is in the pipeline.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2016, 08:47:21 AM »
Quote
The entire point of the LRT is to encourage development around the corridor.  As we have seen pretty conclusively, that doesn't work with busways anywhere in this country.  Even where development sites are available in Brisbane eg around Buranda and Stones Corner, these have been sitting fallow for over a decade while stuff keeps popping up on the urban periphery. 

I don't believe that, however it is a moot point because the GC Hwy corridor constrains the mode that can be used to LRT, simply because LRT will have higher capacity in Priority B ROW.

Lack of building around busways have come down to local planning controls. A TOD was attempted to go around Holland Park station but the busway had already been put in. NIMBY concerns derailed it, and there was no incentive for residents to accept, as the busway was already built.

More hope for somewhere like Coorparoo.

(PS: If you look at Buranda busway, like I did last week, there is a massive development now happening. All the houses there have been demolished and the land cleared. There are cranes on site.)
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2016, 08:51:11 AM »
Quote
Varsity Lakes is becoming quite densely populated and there are apartment buildings going up all over the shop.  The point is to encourage that trend to continue on an identifiable corridor.  Buses are not going to work - the market simply doesn't respond to them.

It doesn't make sense. If apartments are going up, without LRT OR BRT, then the market is responding to neither.  :conf
Complimentary BRT is a way of adding service to areas that are growing independently to the wider network. The development is going to be there, whether PT is extended there or not - most people have cars!
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2016, 10:47:54 AM »
If you think I'm going to support a release which says we shouldn't investigate light rail to Robina, you are sadly mistaken - that's all I'm going to say.

BRT is not going to work in a constrained environment like Varsity Lakes or Robina Town Centre for a start - short of major works, the best you can hope for is higher service frequencies until surface congestion constrains things to the point where it is unworkable.

Go and read the city plan and then get back to us.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2016, 12:06:11 PM »
Quote
If you think I'm going to support a release which says we shouldn't investigate light rail to Robina, you are sadly mistaken - that's all I'm going to say.

I don't get it. Some investigation has already been done, and it is $1BN.

Quote
Light rail from Broadbeach south to Coolangatta will cost $2.1 billion and at least $1 billion from Nobby Beach west to Robina.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au/news/gold-coast/new-council-report-shows-gold-coasts-light-rail-extensions-will-cost-more-than-3-billion/news-story/597d56933f8e70951726626135f14367

Is the Nobby Beach - Robina section going to carry in excess of 5000 pphd? If it isn't, I would just put on larger (super) buses, and run them frequently.

The purpose of transit is to move people. Development came before the LRT ever existed, thus not a prerequisite.

I can understand people want LRT near them. But your area isn't the only place that needs major transit upgrades. There are other places in QLD that need upgrades too. Sunshine Coast is one of them, for example.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2016, 04:31:51 PM »
The Robina to Miami corridor has a current population which is around 60,000.  That's excluding the population in Mermaid Beach/Nobby Beach which would be on the line further south anyway.  By the time this line is likely to be built (which I would be pegging at beyond 2030), that is going to be at least 50% greater if not more.  That makes it not greatly different to the existing catchment of the existing line.

$3bn over an extended period of several decades to extend light rail to say Coolangatta, Robina and Runaway Bay(ish) sounds fine to me.  It amounts to $150m capital expenditure a year over 20 years, which would be funded notionally by GCCC at a rate of around $15m a year or equivalent based on co-contributions from the State and Commonwealth.  For a city the size of the Gold Coast, that isn't terribly much to bear and could conceivably be increased.  In practice - as with the current system, the operator would bear a share of the cost also, and the repayments would be made under finance lease arrangements over the long-term after each stage is operating.

Nobody is proposing this be built by 2020.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #57 on: February 05, 2016, 01:05:54 PM »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2016, 04:32:24 PM »
Rail Express --> Mayor lobbies for Gold Coast Light Rail third stage
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2016, 07:51:16 AM »
Gold Coast Bulletin --> Fair Go for Gold Coast: Light rail extension to airport, fixing the M1 top your wish list
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2016, 07:39:04 AM »
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Offline OzGamer

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2016, 11:11:12 AM »
It's a no-brainer that the next section should be south from Broadbeach, it's really a question of staging. I don't understand why a sensible staged plan can't be put together with sections rolled out over time.

It could be Miami by 2019, Burleigh Heads by 2021, Palm Beach 2023, Airport 2025, and Coolangatta by 2027. If something gets delayed you slide the schedule back and if you get more funding you bring it forward. The next section should always be having detailed design and pre-construction works while the preceding section is being built.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2016, 02:49:40 PM »
Staging by my book would be as follows:

Stage 3 - to Burleigh Heads (achievable by 2022)
Stage 4 - to Elanora (achievable by 2026)
Stage 5 - to the airport (achievable by 2030)
Stage 6 - beyond the airport (achievable by 2034, in conjunction with Stage 7 to Harbour Town around the same time)

Post 2034, the focus would be on Robina (Stage 8), and then on extensions northwards beyond Harbour Town (Stage 9 +) so that by 2040 the southern bits are finished and the northern route towards Hope Island is being rolled out.  Beyond 2040, if justified, you would then be looking at other corridors like Southport-Burleigh Road, Nerang to Southport / Surfers / Broadbeach, Helensvale to Southport via the GC Hwy etc.
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Offline LRV 018

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2016, 04:23:48 PM »
Very interesting times indeed! Good on Tate for committing to a feasibility study, he is certainly doing a good job in getting the ball rolling. :-t

Warning: stay away from the Bully comments section — the whingers are back!! :fp:

I personally wouldn't want anywhere near as many stages as OzGamer is suggesting, maybe not even as many as SurfRail’s idea. Two stages only to the airport IMHO. Note I do have a bit of bias — I live between Elanora and the airport and I am itching to have trams down my way! :bg: Regardless, though, I think the sooner we have trams to the airport, the better. Also, I believe a stage ending at Miami is a bit pointless — the whole corridor between Broadbeach and Burleigh will be incredibly easy to build along, so you might as well do it all in one go. For Broadbeach — Burleigh it’s a matter of just taking out the bus lanes, moving road traffic outwards, and building tracks down the middle!

These are my staging thoughts:

Stage 3: Broadbeach — Burleigh Heads
Stage 4: Burleigh Heads — Gold Coast Airport
Stage 5+: Very much along the lines of SurfRail's proposal


(Source: MyGC. Above photo & associated article found here)

Interesting to note that Tate is now proposing an alignment that will follow the Gold Coast Highway *almost* the whole way to the airport. His previous proposal of going via West Burleigh Road and the M1 the rest of the way was completely stupid! I suppose the current proposal is a fair compromise (see pic above) in which the corridor diverts off the Gold Coast Highway along Palm Beach Ave, then the M1 past The Pines, Stewart Road, then back to the Highway to the airport. That’s fair enough in order to avoid the problematic Currumbin Creek & Currumbin Hill alignment. As far as Burleigh Headland & Tallebudgera Creek: I’ll be very interested to see what is proposed. Tunnels and/or bridges? Who knows. It’s got to happen though!

SurfRail, I'm completely in support of the rest of your staging ideas. Unfortunately it will be a bit of a wait before we have a decent-sized network, but it's a wait I'm willing to endure!

Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2016, 02:30:18 AM »
10 News --> Uncertainty looms over light rail network plans
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2016, 03:22:40 AM »
9 News --> VIDEO: Gold Coast light rail report handed down
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2016, 11:01:19 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Link Gold Coast light rail to Varsity Lakes: MP

Quote
The Gold Coast's Burleigh MP wants the next stage of the light rail project to turn west at Burleigh and head to Varsity Lakes, not to the airport at Tugun.

Gold Coast City Council formally put its foot on the accelerator to plan the third stage of its popular light rail network to the Gold Coast Airport while work is starting on stage two from Helensvale to Southport ...
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2016, 12:34:17 PM »
I'd put something out if (a) I had time and (b) this idea wasn't so farcical.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2016, 03:53:59 AM »
Gold Coast Bulletin --> Gold Coast Chamber chief supports light-rail extension south

Quote
THE prospect of the light rail being extended to the Gold Coast Airport on a route which would take in southern Gold Coast commercial centres is music to the ears of Creek to Creek Chamber of Commerce president ­Hilary Jacobs.

Public consultation with more than 3600 people revealed that the most popular option was to take the light rail to Burleigh from Broadbeach and then the most direct route to the airport.

That would see it negotiate Burleigh headland, across Tallebudgera Creek and then along the Gold Coast Highway through Palm Beach before turning west to Elanora and crossing Currumbin Creek near The Pines Elanora Shopping Centre, passing along Stewart St and into Tugun along the Gold Coast Highway to the airport ...
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2016, 06:23:43 AM »
I can see the logic of terminating the tram at Varsity Lakes and transferring pax on to QR trains to Coolangatta Airport.

However, it is more than likely the train will never be as frequent as the tram.

Also, Palm beach etc would miss out.

Could skyrail work for the Burleigh Headland section?

They also need to redraw the State Border. Take the border out into a feeder creek into Cobaki lakes and then in the middle of Terranora Creek to the sea.

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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2016, 08:00:48 AM »
I can see the logic of terminating the tram at Varsity Lakes and transferring pax on to QR trains to Coolangatta Airport.

 :yikes:
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Offline James

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2016, 09:27:59 AM »
I can see the logic of terminating the tram at Varsity Lakes and transferring pax on to QR trains to Coolangatta Airport.

However, it is more than likely the train will never be as frequent as the tram.

Also, Palm beach etc would miss out.

Could skyrail work for the Burleigh Headland section?

They also need to redraw the State Border. Take the border out into a feeder creek into Cobaki lakes and then in the middle of Terranora Creek to the sea.

No, what they need to do is get the border to p%ss off 20km south and then draw a 5km no-development zone either side of that, so we don't have this god awful situation where you have Uber, daylight saving, lockouts, extended trading hours etc. on one side, and none of that on the other in the middle of suburbia/high-rises. Honestly, the integration between EU member states is better.

Getting back to LRT, no. It needs to go to the GC Airport & onwards to Coolangatta. Please don't half bake yet another infrastructure project.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2016, 06:13:58 PM »
Description is not prescription.

I think straight down the coast is the best idea. a tunnel or cut into the headland/skyrail would be possible to do. Main thing would be the costs, but hey they managed to build a bridge over the Broadwater between Main Beach and Southport, so why not here?

« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 07:55:07 PM by LD Transit »
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Online Gazza

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2016, 06:40:00 PM »
What about if they extend both to the airport, with a double decker tunnel under the runway?

Offline tazzer9

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2016, 07:33:23 PM »
What about if they extend both to the airport, with a double decker tunnel under the runway?

I don't see the need, Light rail would be coming from the eastern side, likely a good stretch along the gold coast highway
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 07:45:12 AM by tazzer9 »

Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #75 on: May 22, 2016, 07:53:32 PM »
I think Gazza needs to explain his idea further and in more detail.  :is-

What do other people think about the concept?
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Online Gazza

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2016, 08:32:46 PM »
Was more tongue in cheek.

Should really be as planned all along, light rail follows the coastal route, the train follows an express inland route.

They both serve different catchment areas.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2016, 11:59:11 PM »
Honestly, the only problem I see from a technical perspective is that it is a bit narrow around Burleigh.  The grade is really not an issue anywhere.  Michael Hart's bleating about the corridor wiping out everything south of Burleigh is utterly unfounded.

Managing construction of the new/replacement bridges that will be needed for both creeks will be challenging but only a temporary issue.
Ride the G:

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #78 on: June 09, 2016, 07:44:18 AM »
Ride the G:

Offline techblitz

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2016, 12:45:46 PM »
taking a look at the absolute chaos with buses down at cooloongatta today......its clear as day that light rail is needed.....

 

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