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Author Topic: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3  (Read 52226 times)

Online ozbob

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Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« on: October 01, 2015, 06:29:57 PM »
Now that stage 2 looks like proceeding.  What would be the best next stage?  South to Burleigh Heads?
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Online ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2015, 02:55:16 AM »
Some options:

http://www.goldcoastlightrail.com.au/gold-coast-light-rail-project/

Quote
The Transport Strategy 2031 draft, released by the Gold Coast City Council in late 2012, outlined that other future stages of construction may include:

    Southern expansion from Broadbeach to Burleigh Heads, then Burleigh Heads to Coolangatta.
    Western expansion to Parkwood.
    Connection from The Spit to Main Beach.
    Connection from Bundall to Surfers Paradise.
    Connection from Nobby Beach to Robina.
    Southern expansion connecting to the Gold Coast Airport.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2015, 06:18:38 AM »
I expect Stage 3 would be to Burleigh, with Stage 4 being either to the Airport or all the way to Coolangatta.  Even if the whole thing to the border was procured in one hit, it would make sense to build and open the Burleigh section first.  From a network perspective, Burleigh is always going to be a bus interchange point, whereas going to somewhere like Nobby Beach or Miami would involve needing to accommodate a bus interchange which would cease to have any use once the line is extended.

After that, it would be spur lines.  The 2 most obvious ones would be up Olsen Avenue to Harbour Town and beyond, and to Robina. Elanora and Seaworld could be done without too much fuss - Seaworld to support development of the Spit (which is a tetchy local issue), Elanora to provide a connection between the future Elanora station and the coast.

For the northern one there is a range of options - the ones that interest me are:

- Push the line up Olsen Ave and Oxley Dr as far as the Lae Drive intersection
-- Keep going all the way up Oxley Dr
-- Same but with a spur along Lae Dr to Runaway Bay
-- Send the line along Lae Dr to Runaway Bay and then up Bayview St to Paradise Point, then back to Oxley Dr

- Send the line as far as Coomera by running via Oxley Dr to Hope Island, then up Santa Barbara Rd, then cross the river where it is fairly narrow, beeline to Foxwell Drive and Coomera station

In the much longer term, you could be looking at a route which replaces the 704 from Helensvale to Southport, which feeds into a route down Ferry Rd/Bundall Rd/Bermuda St from Southport to Robina.

Other routes are going to be a lot more marginal and with a massively expanded light rail network you end up with a lot of buses to run a lot more high frequency and boosted-up feeder/coverage services to all points, so might not be overly important.  For that reason I don't expect to see trams to places like Nerang or Merrimac.  Nerang-Broadbeach Rd will continue to be the most Brisbane-like bus corridor with a number of routes overlapping and fanning out towards the west because of the pattern of development to the immediate west of Broadbeach.
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Offline Zoiks

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2015, 08:15:12 AM »
From: http://www.goldlinq.com.au/resources/ch4-routeselection-and-staging-4cd88f39.pdf

By 2011 -> Griffith Uni to Broadbeach
By 2026 -> Broadbeach to Burleigh Heads & Helensvale to Griffith Uni
By 2041 -> Burleigh Heads to Collangatta & Others

If Stage 2 gets up we are technically ahead of schedule  :-w

Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2015, 08:38:45 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

Quote
For example, the use of fertilizer improves crop production on farms and in gardens; but at some point, adding increasingly more fertilizer improves the yield by less per unit of fertilizer, and excessive quantities can even reduce the yield.


I would just keep it very simple. Just continue extending the LRT as far south as is possible. Terminate it at Tweed Heads Mall (just over the border).

Everything else I would use BRT and superbuses to feed.
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Offline Zoiks

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2015, 09:01:56 AM »
What about stages 7 through 30?




Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2015, 09:24:54 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diminishing_returns

Quote
For example, the use of fertilizer improves crop production on farms and in gardens; but at some point, adding increasingly more fertilizer improves the yield by less per unit of fertilizer, and excessive quantities can even reduce the yield.


I would just keep it very simple. Just continue extending the LRT as far south as is possible. Terminate it at Tweed Heads Mall (just over the border).

Everything else I would use BRT and superbuses to feed.

I wouldn't.

It would be wasteful sending the kind of headways Southport to Broadbeach justifies all the way to Helensvale.  GCUH is a natural branching point for 2 less intensive spur lines to the north, and Robina to Nobby is already more densely populated and has more activity centres on it than the current thing being procured.

BRT is a waste of time.  Bus lanes and properly configured buses can do the same job, then if light rail is justified you build that, and given the pattern of settlement it is quite unlikely anything more intensive would ever be needed (and if it was it would be underground).
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Offline dancingmongoose

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2015, 01:20:55 PM »
I expect stage 3 would be either
  • Broadbeach to Burleigh
  • Uni Hospital to Harbour Town (whether it would actually terminate there or further north like Paradise Point or Hope Island I don't know)

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2015, 02:54:47 PM »
My thoughts on this are that the ultimate network should be a a very high frequency core route with 5 minute headways, splitting to 10 minute headways on two branches at either end, e.g.

For example:

Core route on 5 minute headways: GCUH to wherever the Robina branch comes off (Mermaid Beach/Miami around Pacific drive).

Splitting to:

- 10 minute headways, GCUH to Helensvale, and GCUH to Harbour Town or points north.
- 10 minute headways, Miama to Robina, and Miami to points south (agree with LD here, Tweed Mall).

That would give a nice easily understood network serving the main places it needs to.

Not sure how to fit spurs like Elanora into this, perhaps route it thought to the south to give convenient rail to Currumbin, etc. journies and boost frequency at the southern end of the coast.

Right now, however - I'd be contented to see Helensvale built, then south to about Burleigh as stage 3.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2015, 05:17:32 PM »
^ Elanora is useful as a terminating point if construction has to be staged out in 6-8km sections - especially if we can get QR into gear with an Elanora extension at minimum.  (I am now of a mind that Tallebudgera should not be built - Tugun I am open to being convinced about but I can't see any merit in Tallebudgera at all other than as a preserved site for the distant future.) 

My pairings would probably be Helensvale <-> Coolangatta-Tweed and GCUH <-> Elanora on 5 minute separation in the combined stretch from GCUH to Currumbin Creek, yielding one every 10 minutes on the outer legs.

The other route would be "North" <-> Robina.  It would probably be every 10 minutes at best and so wouldn't necessarily sync perfectly with the "main" pattern but the headways would be such that it wouldn't matter.

Later on, instead of terminating at GCUH, you can run them elsewhere (eg Seaworld, branching the "North" line at Lae Dr with one to Runaway Bay and the other further north, or some other crazy option nobody has considered.  At that point you might resequence the timings to preserve the higher headway to GCUH.

All speculation, but we do know where the new city plan wants the growth to go and trams are at the heart of it.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 05:26:03 PM by SurfRail »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2015, 05:35:49 PM »
SurfRail, you had a model of a bus network / tram network once. Do you have a link to that?
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2015, 06:56:24 AM »
I've had plenty, but none reflect my current thinking. 

I'm busy working on something that would be possible by the Commonwealth Games assuming Stage 2 does finally get locked in and they aren't afraid to spend a bit more on the bus network.  Broadly speaking it would be around an extra 4-8 high frequency routes (719 as a definite with consideration for some or all of the 714, 719, 725, 735, 747 and restructured 760/765), upgrading some others to half-hourly and otherwise focusing on getting the operating hours up to hourly 6-7am to 7-8pm at an absolute minimum for all routes except for the theme park expresses and NightLink routes.

One thing the current Stage 2 alignment does is make it a lot easier to cancel the TX2 and TX3 and just run a more intensive service between Coomera and Helensvale, and just leave a few TX1s for people coming way up from south of Broadbeach.  Just hop on the tram to the end of the line and change.
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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2015, 08:25:56 AM »
Wow, this thread has turned into a foam party. Stage 2 still isn't funded, venue if tenders are proceeding

Surely the frequency to Helensvale should roughly match the QR peak frequency to provide good connections, thus 7.5 mins (or 3.25 mins) seems sensible.

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2015, 09:12:26 AM »
You don't need to connect every single tram to every single train.  Outside of a very small stretch of the peak, train frequency is every 30 minutes, so the principal consideration is providing a suitable service for Helensvale.

2 x 10-15 minute branches would be perfectly reasonable at either end.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2015, 11:36:23 PM »
Quote
BRT is a waste of time.  Bus lanes and properly configured buses can do the same job, then if light rail is justified you build that, and given the pattern of settlement it is quite unlikely anything more intensive would ever be needed (and if it was it would be underground).

Not at all. What you have described is BRT. Lanes, signal enhancements, stop spacing, larger vehicles.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2015, 11:49:45 PM »
I like the idea of the LRT accessing Robina Town Centre. That's slated as a competing centre with Southport.
But what would the alignment look like? I don't think it would be as simple as previous constructions.

I think there really needs to be a Google Map to show how this all fits together. I think what the Brisbane New Bus Network Proposal showed very clearly is that 1 Good Idea + 1 Good Idea = bad idea! because the whole network is interdependent.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 12:00:48 AM by LD Transit »
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 10:17:21 AM »
Quote
BRT is a waste of time.  Bus lanes and properly configured buses can do the same job, then if light rail is justified you build that, and given the pattern of settlement it is quite unlikely anything more intensive would ever be needed (and if it was it would be underground).

Not at all. What you have described is BRT. Lanes, signal enhancements, stop spacing, larger vehicles.

Just the lanes and the signalling.  Gold Coast stop spacing is already fine for the most part - in fact the 750 does not have enough stops in places.

There is certainly no need for a separate right of way anywhere, and full length rigids will be fine.  The issue is the inadequate present design, which is a system-wide issue.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 08:46:47 PM »
Semi-foam - what I think the system should look like in around 30 years time.  KMZ (Google Earth) file attached.

I envision 10 stages over that period:

- Stage 1 (2014) - currently operating.
- Stage 2 (2018) - Helensvale (being procured).
- Stage 3 (2022) - Burleigh Heads.
- Stage 4 (2026) - Elanora.
- Stage 5 (2030) - Tweed Heads.  At this point, there are 2 patterns ("G:1" from Helensvale-Tweed Heads and "G:2" from GCUH-Elanora)
- Stage 6 (2034) - Runaway Bay.  At this point, the G:2 services are extended to Runaway Bay.
- Stage 7 (2038) - Robina.  At this point there are 3 patterns (G:1, G:2, and a new G:3 from Robina to Harbour Town).
- Stage 8 (2042) - Paradise Point (G:3 services are extended).
- Stage 9 (2046) - Hope Island (G:3 services are extended).
- Stage 10 (2050) - Coomera (G:3 services are extended for the last time).

Approximate lengths of the extensions (rough as guts based on my plotting and rounding up a bit) - about 60km of route length, or around 4.5 times the current system length:
- GCUH to Helensvale - 7.5km
- GCUH to Runaway Bay - 7.0km
- Runaway Bay West to Coomera - 12.5km
- Broadbeach South to Tweed Heads - 21.5km
- Miami to Robina - 10.0km

To build a system of this length, you would need to keep up a build tempo of around 6-7km worth every 3 years.  You could of course shelve the bits beyond say Paradise Point to keep it easier - you could probably get a decent amount of the benefit just by building a small green-link between Santa Barbara and Coomera and running a high-frequency bus between Coomera Station and Paradise Point.

At this point, the city would have had just over 30 years of growing up around the light rail so corridors like Olsen Avenue and through Varsity Lakes will start looking quite a bit denser under the 2015 City Plan and subsequent versions building on it.

You can see where gaps in the system get plugged with buses (704 still exists, a high-frequency route between Paradise Point and Southport merging with the 704 through Labrador, Bundall Rd, north and west of Helensvale etc).

I've also assumed the railway is extended to the airport, and that they wake up and build it properly to allow extension into the built up parts of northern NSW (ie short tunnel under the airport instead of a big loop with trains terminating facing the wrong way for that to happen).
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 11:10:13 PM »
This is great SurfRail! You obviously put a lot of thought and time into this. Perhaps it could be announced as a proposal?

I think the Hope Island line should go to the Hope Island Station, that's the only suggestion I would have to add.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 08:50:56 AM »
That's something I have previously looked at, but you have to keep in mind that Coomera is meant to look like Robina done right (ie station right in the middle of things instead of 800m away) - it's to be the Gold Coast's third major activity centre with a lot of retail, potentially a uni campus and higher resi density in the station precinct.  Westfield is getting itself into gear now the planning issues are sorted, and Exit 54 on the M1 is being upgraded.

While by and large it is going to be easier to get to the other 2 major centres by rail (Robina) and by rail + tram (Southport) from Coomera, a link to Coomera presupposes that a lot of the currently vacant land around Hope Island starts being developed into medium density adjacent to Hope Island Rd.  Hope Island station itself isn't much, and won't ever be much due to the river and the creek being against it.  Similar sort of situation to Parkwood in that you could certainly build a station there but if you did so for the purpose of establishing an LRT connection it wouldn't be the best form a network perspective.

The 725 which passes through there is in my view ripe for a 15 minute frequency bus route.
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Online ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2015, 07:10:49 AM »
Gold Coast Bulletin --> Councillors consider route for light rail from Palm Beach to airport

Quote
THE light rail could roll down the coast through Palm Beach as councillors consider how best to connect the city’s south with the trams.

While a Broadbeach to Burleigh link has long been regarded as the likely third stage of the light rail system, state and local political leaders have been at odds with how to progress the link all the way to the Gold Coast Airport. Now the matter could be coming to a head, with a coastal link to Coolangatta to be considered.

Councillors yesterday began discussing amendments to the City Plan 2015, which will govern all planning and development once it comes into effect early next year, including the light rail corridor.

According to draft maps, the new tram proposal could go south along the Gold Coast Highway into Palm Beach, or out to Elanora, where it would continue down the heavy rail corridor to the airport. However, there are concerns the coastal strip route could cause significant disruption to residents and businesses similar to construction of the $1.6 billion stage one.

Area councillor Daphne McDonald said the final chosen route must go out to community consultation.

She said the rail link was “desperately needed” to solve traffic issues and connect southern infrastructure with the north.

“What needs to be weighed up is which route would benefit the community most and what would cause the least amount of disruption,” she said. “A lot of businesses were hurt and closed during the construction of the first stage and there are still noise complaints, so I think we really clearly need to put on the table which route we are looking at.

“There are issues with getting around Burleigh and Currumbin hills and over the creeks so there will need to be a lot of consultation.”

Cr McDonald’s stance has been backed by Surfers Paradise councillor Lex Bell, who said the route would need to be selected carefully.

Links from Broadbeach to Nobby Beach, Burleigh Head and Robina are also all under investigation. However, no funding has been committed.

Councillors will receive a full briefing on the southern light rail route within weeks.

Cr McDonald also requested an update on investigations by the former Newman Government into taking the trams west from Burleigh Heads to Varsity Lakes railway station before going south.

The western link has been proposed by Burleigh MP ­Michael Hart who has long championed the route.

The State Government last week called for tenders to build stage two of the light rail, a 7km route from Gold Coast University Hospital to Helensvale. It is hoped to be built ­before the Commonwealth Games in April 2018.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2015, 08:20:09 AM »

A key decision is what to do at Burleigh Heads. Two options exist (1) up over the headland, and follow the GC Highway, or (2) deviate and go through Eleanora.

Personally, I think they should just stick to the GC Highway corridor. That's where the people are, and the density of businesses is far, far lower than in Surfers Paradise etc.
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2015, 11:28:33 AM »
Spot on.

The "via Varsity Lakes" route is a nonsense.

They have also looked at a route which bypasses Currumbin in favour of going via Elanora and the heavy rail corridor to the airport, which is also horrible.

Best route by far is going to be to simply push the thing all the way along the Gold Coast Highway corridor, without deviation, all the way from Broadbeach South to the northern edge of the airport precinct, then follow the indicative corridor in the airport's master plan - ideally then over to the rough vicinity of Twin Towns via Kirra and Coolangatta (where there are a number of options to look at).
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Online ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2015, 05:44:14 PM »
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2015, 06:38:08 PM »
Good!  Best we start netting these  :pfy: while they are landing.  Not so foamy now, huh?
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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 06:45:10 PM »
The cartoon in the CM was pure gold.

What is really refreshing about all this is seeing a local council and Mayor have such a positive input into the process.  Compared to the dross we have to put up with from BCC, Quirk & Schrinner, what is happening on the Gold Coast is revolutionary.  (Nearly choked on my coffee when I saw Quirk is still banging on about the damn BAT not-an-acronym tunnel).

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2015, 03:06:17 AM »
7 News --> New plans for Gold Coast tram system

>> https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/29789702/new-plans-for-gold-coast-tram-system/#page1
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Offline pandmaster

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2015, 02:54:00 PM »
It is fantastic to see some really positive stuff happening with LRT on the Gold Coast.

I absolutely agree that following the Gold Coast Highway is the way to go. It is relatively simple (get on the tram to go anywhere along the Coast) and is where people are and want to go. Why waste money duplicating the future heavy rail? Thankfully the people responsible on the Gold Coast seem to be sensible people.

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2015, 02:39:52 AM »
Gold Coast Bulletin --> Trams to Burleigh ‘will happen’: Council officers are already planning

Quote
Planning has already begun on extending the Gold Coast’s popular tram south from Broadbeach to Burleigh, less than a month after the city secured funding for a link to Helensvale.

Council officers are already pouring over plans and drawing up routes for the third stage which is expected to travel south along the Gold Coast Highway.

Developer and Light Rail Advisory committee chairman Steve Harrison said talks had advanced quickly since Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull committed funding for stage two just four weeks ago.

“Stage three is no longer a matter of if — it is now a matter of when,” he said.

“With stage two secured, discussions have commenced on the route of stage three, the timing and how we can make it happen.” ...
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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2015, 12:56:55 PM »
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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2015, 05:54:18 PM »
Twitter

7 News Queensland ‏@7NewsQueensland 3m

Soon: Details on the plans to take the Gold Coast rail link to Coolangatta. 7 News at 6pm http://7live.com.au 
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2015, 06:48:00 PM »
OOL extension http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/R/Robina-to-Tugun-Rail-Impact-Assessment-Study.aspx

Not a fan of the hook into GC Airport. Would much like the line to continue and terminate at Tweed Heads.

If the border is the issue, they should think about redrawing the border so that the north bank of the Tweed River is within Queensland.
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Online verbatim9

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2015, 08:57:56 PM »
https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/30206988/gold-coast-rail-upgrades/

Offline STB

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2015, 10:04:41 PM »
OOL extension http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/R/Robina-to-Tugun-Rail-Impact-Assessment-Study.aspx

Not a fan of the hook into GC Airport. Would much like the line to continue and terminate at Tweed Heads.

If the border is the issue, they should think about redrawing the border so that the north bank of the Tweed River is within Queensland.

I'm not a fan of the hook either.

I actually reckon they should dig underground just before the airport and have an underground airport station before popping out to the surface and following the existing Coolangatta Road alignment and having a surface Coolangatta station between Chalk and Langham Streets.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2015, 06:07:03 AM »
^ Underground airport station, but make provision for the line to veer south and follow the M1 into northern NSW.

There's not much a station at Coolangatta would do that a light rail extension couldn't do better.
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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2015, 07:29:22 AM »
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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2015, 09:57:04 AM »
That's going to make a huge difference for people on the southern end of the coast with seamless transfer at Coolangatra Airport from lightrail to train

Offline techblitz

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2015, 10:36:55 AM »
Quote
The delegation’s one-day trip will be led by Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk.
8) 8)

Online ozbob

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Re: Gold Coast light rail - Stage 3
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2015, 06:43:16 AM »
From the Sunday Mail 29th November 2015 pages 16/17

Let there be light rail



Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan