SEQ Fare Review Taskforce

[ozbob]

As outlined in the TOR and comments above what can be done now is really what has been done on the go card already.

Off peak discount could be changed. 30% 40% differential, weekday 30% weekends 50%?

Transfer time could be lengthened (60 to say 90 minutes?) , or even the number of transfers allowed in a single journey (say 5 or 6).

Say 50% fares after 8 paid journeys in a week could be done (we have had this before as 6, 10 and 50%).   An increase in off peak to say 30% or 50% would mean for most weekend fares would be very reasonable, but still preserving a fare box.

Zones could be changed, anomalies fixed up.

Daily and weekly caps cannot be done.  Flat fares can but cannot be best fares.  Just supposing you had a 5$ flat fare on Sundays.  The go card sees all journeys on such a fare as a flat $5 even if only one zone.

However in the next generation system many things not now achievable could be done.

[verbatim9]

As I outline in the TOR and comments above what can be done now is really what has been done on the go card already.

Off peak discount could be changed. 30% 40% differential, weekday 30% weekends 50%?

Transfer time could be lengthened (60 to say 90 minutes?) , or even the number of transfers allowed in a single journey (say 5 or 6).

Say 50% fares after 8 paid journeys in a week could be done (we have had this before).   An increase in off peak to say 30% or 50% would mean for most weekend fares would be very reasonable, but still preserving a fare box.

Zones could be changed, anomalies fixed up.

Daily and weekly caps cannot be done.  Flat fares can but cannot be best fares.  Just supposing you had a 5$ flat fare on Sundays.  The go card sees all journeys on such a fare as a flat $5 even if only one zone.

However in the next generation system many things not now achievable could be done.

Yeah I remember that when the fares were lower and 50% off after 8 was a fair and equatable deal.

[techblitz]

its hard to see some sort of free travel  being taken away completely.....it will no doubt engage heavy discussion at the review...probably being the most discussed topic...

[ozbob]

Another thing that is presently possible on the go card is pass fares.

The models being the seeq and the go explore, not so much the detail but the concept. Also remember they did a special G20 go card for delegates as well (unrestricted travel for 5 days I think it was)

Perhaps an option could be pass tickets for say uni students?  Others?

Put the thinking caps on team ..

[aldonius]

I would support a move to 8-then-half (on the current system).

Regarding the actual report: it would be stretching the ToR, but it would be nice to see half a page of 'this would be ideal' recommendations followed by 'but this is what can actually be done'.

[verbatim9]

75% after 8 50% Percent off on weekends and Public Holidays if under 8 Trips in 7 days Mon to Fri

Having  50% off applied to Open Payment on weekends and Public Holidays also. Keep 30% offpeak

[#Metro]

I was thinking of the idea that there could be ONE 'discount' fare. It is a bit strange to heap a discount (i.e student/concession etc) on another discount (off peak). Are the amounts saved really that much by doing this, to encourage large changes in PT behaviour?

So perhaps it could work like this: Peak fares 100%, Off peak and all concessions 50% of peak. Nice and simple. You could do this all day every day including weekends. This could be done with or without a points system.

I generally don't like 'rewards', but then again I may be cynical. Too many times the 'rewards' for patronage morphs into 'pre-electoral bribes for party x'. And ends up destroying the revenue base.

Frankly, I think the mass amounts of money just flushed away in pre-electoral 'bribery' such as 9-then waste, is just grossly irresponsible. It has encouraged law abiding citizens to become scammers/rorters paying other people to touch on off the cards en masse during lunchtime or take trips ordinary people would not do, not to get anywhere, but just to qualify for the discount. And even more so when you consider places like Bulimba, Centenary etc do not have proper PT services.

Taken to it's logical end (8-then free, 7-then free, 6-then free, ...) you arrive at 1 then free, which is in effect a TransLink Zone Pass. You pay once for the pass and then any and all trips after that is 'free'. It's not a bad idea- it means that any additional trips are free...

[ozbob]

Frankly, I think the mass amounts of money just flushed away in pre-electoral 'bribery' such as 9-then waste, is just grossly irresponsible. It has encouraged law abiding citizens to become scammers/rorters paying other people to touch on off the cards en masse during lunchtime or take trips ordinary people would not do, not to get anywhere, but just to qualify for the discount. And even more so when you consider places like Bulimba, Centenary etc do not have proper PT services.

Taken to it's logical end (8-then free, 7-then free, 6-then free, ...) you arrive at 1 then free, which is in effect a TransLink Zone Pass. You pay once for the pass and then any and all trips after that is 'free'. It's not a bad idea- it means that any additional trips are free...

Nailed it there    ...  desperate polyticks trumped ...

[ozbob]

Canberra's Myway card has an interesting approach.

They have the advantage of a daily cap, but also free after 40 in a calendar month (adults)  ...  school students 30 ..

(flat fares)

>> http://www.transport.act.gov.au/catch_a_bus/myway/fares

[verbatim9]

That's because public servants down there get paid monthly and rent is monthly unlike here so they base everything around a monthly cycle

[ozbob]

That's because public servants down there get paid monthly and rent is monthly unlike here so they base everything around a monthly cycle

Sure?  I thought public servants were paid fortnightly .. e.g > http://maps.finance.gov.au/office_administration/pay_administration.html

[verbatim9]

My experience down there except Syd but ACT and Mel its all monthly rent, bills, and salaries. Its common practice for international companies embassies to pay salaries  monthly its more efficient

[verbatim9]

Back to 40 then free. Prefer weekly 8,9 or 10 then free. Planning something 3 weeks in advance all the time to go to the beach may not be the best option. In Canberra I doubt they would use the bus for leisure trips on weekends after 40!? As they only go to shopping centre hubs not beaches and points of interest like in Se Qld

[ozbob]

The options for the go card are very limited compared to other jurisdictions.  They really got done over in 2005/2006 when setting it up.

I think they will have to stop the leakage. At one point there was a 6 journey then 50% fares structure.   How they will go is anyone's guess.

The problem with giving out absolute free travel is it is killing the fare box, is only benefiting a few, and is keeping base fares too high. Also not really encouraging patronage at all, because people bulk at the high cost of fares for discretionary travel.  You really only have a captive M-F commuter market in the main.

Even when we had yearly, weekly and so forth there was a fare paid.  If you had say a zone 16 periodical, unrestricted travel in those zones if you wanted to travel to say zone 23 you simply purchased an extension ticket.  But you have paid a fare upfront for the periodical.

A 50% fare of an off peak fare is not much at all at weekends.  If that allows better fares for everyone then that is a better thing IMHO. Getting people back onto public transport is a stated aim of the review, doing the same is not going to work.  It has failed, hence the review.

[verbatim9]

I hear ya! 2016 Go card re tender will it be Cubic again? I am happy with baby steps 75% off after 8 sounds fair to me instead of free

[ozbob]

I hear ya! 2016 Go card re tender will it be Cubic again?

I think Cubic would be one of many.  Cubic obviously has a good track record with more recent products but how the new system tender proceeds is not clear yet.  I think it will be a number of years away at best.

[James]

I think we need to take a Jetstar approach to fare reform - All day, every day low fares.

Rather than incentivising frequent travel excessively, lets just make travel cheaper for everybody, encouraging everybody (including infrequent users) to get on to the network. Lower fares back to the 2008 level and come in with a 25% off after 10 trips (and maybe a 50% off after 15 trips).

Aside from this, fix the zone boundary anomalies (I'm looking at you, inner Ipswich line) and slightly shift the price increases per zone to make short trips even cheaper and longer trips cost a bit more.

The fundamental issue with weekend travel is NOT that the system isn't free for 9-5 commuters (i.e. 'dad'), if this was the case we'd be seeing sardine can loads on weekends. It is that for the two kids and mum who don't use the bus at all during the week, they are paying through the nose to travel on appalling public transport services (which unless you're on a BUZ route, is generally half-hourly for trains and hourly for buses).

[longboi]

I want to see the approach to peak/off peak fares change to a model where 'off peak' is the base fare and peak travel incurs a premium fare.

Although it really is just a change in language, it better reflects how products and services are offered in any other market (i.e. Better service in peak = premium fare, rather than the current paradigm of offering discounts for poor off-peak service).

I would also like to throw in my support for removing 'X and free' gimmicks. Inducing demand, especially on high-cost long distance services, only pushes up operating costs and subsequently fares. Extending discounts to the unemployed and perhaps weekend-only discounts is a much more equitable solution than rewarding those who already have jobs and/or rort the system and/or only have a short weekday commute.

[ozbob]

^ Thanks Nikko, wise informed comment. 

[Golliwog]

Another thing that is presently possible on the go card is pass fares.

The models being the seeq and the go explore, not so much the detail but the concept. Also remember they did a special G20 go card for delegates as well (unrestricted travel for 5 days I think it was)

Perhaps an option could be pass tickets for say uni students?  Others?

Put the thinking caps on team ..

There's also go card for business: http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/tickets-for-business
$12 for 3 days unlimited travel - it's meant for event delegates so I would assume the assumption in the price is that they will be spending most of each day in meetings/conferences and travel to and from accommodation or restaurants etc in the morning and afternoons/evening.

[Derwan]

I'd like to see kids (maybe up to 3) travelling free with a "paying" adult on weekends.

This would:

• Encourage families who don't use public transport on the weekend to use it.
• For those who do already use public transport on weekends, avoid the issues of making sure every kid's Go Card is topped up and touched on and off.

This would be most beneficial for families where the adults catch public transport during the week but the kids just go to the local school.  The kids basically wouldn't need Go Cards and the adult would still be get whatever discount they're entitled to.  I think it would result in more from number 1 above than number 2 - meaning increased fare revenue and reduced traffic on roads (provided we do away with 9 then free).

[Derwan]

I think we need to take a Jetstar approach to fare reform - All day, every day low fares.

I tend to agree with you James.  We've seen so many ideas....  discounts, free travel, caps, points systems... but at the end of the day, if public transport is affordable, we wouldn't need these gimmicks (election sweeteners).

I've said this before.  "Weekly", "Monthly" and longer periodic tickets reduced the workload/wait times at stations (and in buses) prior to the Go Card's availability.  People were encouraged to buy these types of tickets by offering discounts (e.g. "Weekly" ticket for the cost of 4 "daily" tickets).  By encouraging people to buy weekly or monthly tickets, it meant that people were only queuing at the ticket window once a week or month instead of every day, which would've resulted in longer waits and potentially paying more ticket staff at busy stations.

Now that we have Go Cards, we have no reason to offer "discounts" for frequent users, however it could be argued that some sort of "capping" should still be available to encourage public transport use.

If anything, I'd like to see "caps" applied at a daily level only and generic discounts (for everyone) on weekends regardless of the number of trips you do during the week.  The daily cap would be limited to 2 x the longest journey (i.e. the same as the old daily tickets).  This would stop the lunch-time rort - but not increase the daily cost if we need to do an extra trip.

[#Metro]

I agree with James - all day, everyday low fares. Like Perth!!

I like passes. Why? Because they are the equivalent of 1-then free. Pay once and then every trip after that is free. Not bad eh?
It means that the marginal cost (i.e the cost to make an additional trip) is ZERO. You cannot get any cheaper than that, or give more
incentive to use PT. It is also dead simple.

A pass system can run side by side with a peak/off-peak fare system for those who don't like commitment. I would recommend 100% fares in peak hour and a single concession fare of 50% in the off peak. People who are on concession would just pay 50% all day rather than compound discounts on discounts.

You should be able to choose whatever months you want, and all months should be calendar months at the same price (i.e no different price for February versus December for example). This is simple now that most things are electronic. So you could take out 1-month, 2-months, 3-months, 6-months, 7-months, 1-year max.

Melbourne has 2-systems run side by side. You can have Myki Pass or Myki Money or both.

[BrizCommuter]

It's important to keep 9 then free. And introduce weekend and Public Holiday capping to fill up PT with casual users

No, we need zone based daily and weekly capping, that is not rortable by long distance commuters.

[Derwan]

I like passes. Why? Because they are the equivalent of 1-then free. Pay once and then every trip after that is free. Not bad eh?

That's what capping does.  The capping should be built in to the system.  People are still thinking in old paper-ticket terms - when there was a reason to have a discount for "passes" (periodic tickets).  There is no reason to have periodic tickets with the Go Card - except maybe to encourage people to take public transport 5 days a week instead of 3 or 4 (if they've already purchased the pass).

Also, "passes" give no incentive for people to travel off-peak.  They've already paid full price.

Let's move past the "old" paper-based terminology and processes.  Technology-based solutions like the Go Card open up new ways of applying capping and discounts. (Well they SHOULD!)

[#Metro]

Well, you are free to disagree with me. I like passes (1-then free) it is a cap also, you only seem to be arguing if there is a cap that it should be a daily cap. I'm arguing that it should be a monthly or greater cap.

You can run both systems side by side, Melbourne has this. You can choose to come under the pay-per-trip scheme or you can take out a pass or both (good for roaming outside the usual zones, i.e. V/Line trip to the countryside on the weekend)

Passes mean the cost of an additional trip is ZERO. It's basically Sizzler - all you can eat. That's what I like about a pass. It's not about whether it was paper based or not- mobile phones offer monthly passes, there's no paper involved there. Few companies offer charge-per-call etc, but many have realised people just want predictable costs and usage whenever they like

Your point about off-peak fares is correct. Yes, it does not push people out of the peak hour into the off peak. On the other hand, my own personal experiences were that I travelled when I wanted to, not when the Government thought I should (very hard to convince the boss that 9am work starts should move into off-peak) or other appointments. I think the price lever is not that strong, adding more service to off-peak would be better encouragement for pax to use off peak services (we have seen this with the BUZ experience, it's not discounts but more service that got off-peak patronage to increase).

HOWEVER, your views and preferences are just as valid as mine. So what I would say is that the fare review should research what people value. And after that present a test group with a panel of options and see which one comes out on top. I think it will be passes. I could be wrong. But you could be wrong also...

[Derwan]

Well, you are free to disagree with me.

I know. And I do.

I like passes (1-then free) it is a cap also, you only seem to be arguing if there is a cap that it should be a daily cap. I'm arguing that it should be a monthly or greater cap.

That's just my personal opinion. It may not be the popular one. But whichever cap system they bring in, I believe it should be automatically calculated, not a preset pass system. That would be going backwards.

You can run both systems side by side, Melbourne has this. You can choose to come under the pay-per-trip scheme or you can take out a pass or both (good for roaming outside the usual zones, i.e. V/Line trip to the countryside on the weekend)

To me this is an interim thing while people get used to the card. Perhaps Brisbane should've done this in the first place. But to do it now would be taking a step back.

Passes mean the cost of an additional trip is ZERO.

But that's what a calculated cap would do anyway.

HOWEVER, your views and preferences are just as valid as mine. So what I would say is that the fare review should research what people value. And after that present a test group with a panel of options and see which one comes out on top. I think it will be passes. I could be wrong. But you could be wrong also...

Now this I agree with.

[verbatim9]

75% off full fare and full concession fare after 6 trips can suit many. That means by Thursday many will have a discount and still make it worth while to make longer journeys while contributing to the fare box.

Sent from my SM-G360G using Tapatalk

[dancingmongoose]

There "pass use" go-cards active on the network at present. I have no idea how they are attained but I've often seen the reader give the message "$20.00 available - pass use only" to the person in front of me. I think it's mainly school kids but it should be easy to bring in daily/weekly/whatever else passes. Plus there's the go explore card and the G20 card. No reason why it can't be brought in.

[verbatim9]

You can add a 10.00 buck day pass on the go card here on the Gold Coast

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[Arnz]

Another thing that is presently possible on the go card is pass fares.

I recall the old South East Explorer integrated tickets in the Pre-TransLink days, it had a 5-zone version (BT zones only), a greater Brisbane version (equivalent of 8-zones to Caboolture/Beenleigh and Ipswich), and a S.E Qld version (covering Noosa to Coolangatta).

What are the thoughts of that replacing the SEEQ card but with a 2-day or 3-day pass capped to the particular zones? 

[ozbob]

Make TransLink fares more affordable

>>  https://www.change.org/p/translink-annastacia-palaszczuk-mp-jackie-trad-mp-make-translink-fares-more-affordable?recruiter=64398423

A petition by Cr Adrian Schrinner ...

[verbatim9]

Why didn't both LNP governments work together on this when Newman was Premier? It just seems a bit ridiculous having a petition from a councillor at this stage when there has been no outcome from a fare review

[SurfRail]

Schrinner is a political grub, that's why.

[#Metro]

@PeteFTD @Team_Quirk BCC is a contractor to the State Gov. If the State wants to make bus network changes they have the power.

— Adrian Schrinner (@Schrinner) September 8, 2015

(NB: No, this is not my twitter account)

[James]

Make TransLink fares more affordable

>>  https://www.change.org/p/translink-annastacia-palaszczuk-mp-jackie-trad-mp-make-translink-fares-more-affordable?recruiter=64398423

A petition by Cr Adrian Schrinner ...

I'm sorry, but lol. This is exactly what they're doing right now.

[#Metro]

I think it is absolutely essential that as part of this fares review, we see exactly which operators have been driving the large increase in costs/subsidy and why.

[ozbob]

612 ABC Brisbane

>> http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2015/09/are-brisbane-bus-fares-fair-.html

Are Brisbane bus fares fair?

08 September 2015 , 5:40 PM by Gabrielle Lyons

Do you feel like you are paying too much to ride the bus?

How often are you topping up your gocard?

How much do you feel is fair to charge per bus trip? And how much is too much?

===================

Interviews Cr Matic and myself on line.

My bit starts around 7.50s  >> https://soundcloud.com/612abcbrisbane/are-brisbane-bus-fares-fair

[ozbob]

7 News --> Why bus passenger numbers are plummeting

>> https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/29468681/why-bus-passenger-numbers-are-plummeting/#page1

[#Metro]

doing our part? We're putting in a record $114m PT subsidy this year. Name another Council that comes close?

^^ All other capital cities have PT funded by the State or Territory Government.