SEQ Fare Review Taskforce

[ozbob]

Here is a little thought experiment:

Does a one zone fare on a one hour frequency bus service out in the back-blocks represent the same value as a one zone fare on say the CityGlider bus that runs every few minutes?

Presently we say they are equivalent in ' value or cost ' .

Like most things, there are different ways of looking at fares and service.

[Fares_Fair]

Here is a little thought experiment:

Does a one zone fare on a one hour frequency bus service out in the back-blocks represent the same value as a one zone fare on say the CityGlider bus that runs every few minutes?

Presently we say they are equivalent in ' value or cost ' .

Like most things, there are different ways of looking at fares and service.

Indeed, you raise an important point.
I believe that fares need to take into account available levels of service, including local infrastructure limitations.

[Derwan]

Does a one zone fare on a one hour frequency bus service out in the back-blocks represent the same value as a one zone fare on say the CityGlider bus that runs every few minutes?

Presently we say they are equivalent in ' value or cost ' .

Like most things, there are different ways of looking at fares and service.

A 1-zone trip for 800m in the city might seem like good value.  But that was the distance I used to walk to get to the train station.

Travelling 2km in a single zone might seem good value in the city - but the next station/stop might be more than that in the outer-suburbs.

[ozbob]

Sunshine Coast Daily --> Why it just got a lot cheaper to catch public transport

[Derwan]

Brisbane Times - Brisbane fares: Labor fare hikes were wrong, says Queensland minister

[ozbob]

^

Good to see Government acknowledge the past issues.  Good on them for that and now moving to sort it.

[tazzer9]

My main hate with the review recommendations is not enough reward for those using PT on weekends.
Why not extend that 2 then free seniors discount for everyone on weekends. 

The new fares are built around people who only use PT to get to and from their 9-5 jobs.  For only 10 trips a week.

Why are school students slapped with peak hour fares for travelling at 3:30pm. 
Why haven't they added the free travel to concession go cards for weekends.
Why not a blanket 50% for weekends.   

[#Metro]

For the 'perfectionists':

Do We Really Want Fares to be "Fair"?
http://humantransit.org/2009/05/in-search-of-fair-fares.html

"After dealing with these issues for years as a consultant, I'm beginning to suspect that we might do well to set aside the idea of "fairness" or "equity" in fares.  When we're talking about fares, everyone wants (a) to pay less and (b) to perceive that the system is fair or equitable. But a simple thought experiment should tell us that we don't really want fairness at all:"

[ozbob]

Twitter

TransLink ‏@TransLinkSEQ 3m

Cheaper fares are coming in early 2017.

Calculate your new fare now http://ow.ly/lock301bJUa  Find out more details http://ow.ly/erk0301bJV7

[nathandavid88]

My main hate with the review recommendations is not enough reward for those using PT on weekends.
Why not extend that 2 then free seniors discount for everyone on weekends. 

The new fares are built around people who only use PT to get to and from their 9-5 jobs.  For only 10 trips a week.

The reason fares are built around weekday commuters is simple – they comprise the biggest group of people who use public transport, so of course they would benefit the most. That said, it's not like weekend travellers have been dudded. Off peak fares have been reduced in the new fare structure to maintain the 20% off peak discount over peak fares, while commuters who have racked up the 8 & 50% benefit will get 50% off, concession holders still get 50% off (and with 2 then free for senior concessions) and now children under 14 travel free on weekends. That's not bad going really. 

Why are school students slapped with peak hour fares for travelling at 3:30pm.

I would imagine a lot of school students would have touched on to their service by 3pm, and even if not their concession fares are already 50% off.
 

Why haven't they added the free travel to concession go cards for weekends.

Why should all concession card holders get free weekend transport? Isn't paying half of fares that have already been reduced by 20% enough of a discount?

Why not a blanket 50% for weekends.

Again, weekday commuters on 8 & 50% will get 50% off, concession holders still get 50% off (and 2 then free for seniors),  children under 14 are free, and all weekend fares are 20% cheaper across the board due to being off peak. That alone would cover the vast majority of weekend PT users, I would suspect.

[tazzer9]

What high schools finish before 3pm.  My high school always finished at 3:30, and i always got the 3:41 great circle line bus.  I don't know of any high school that regularly finishes before 3.
I expect more a discount for travelling on weekends and off peak times, even if it means hiking the peak fare to compensate. 
We need to change bad travel habits, not cater for them.
If seniors can get a 2 then free, it should be extended to all concessions.   

Even with my concession discount, these fares won't make my consider PT on the weekend, especially with our awful service. 
I would also like to see PT heavily discounted on weekends so PT can be considered a real transport option for those drinking and going out late at night.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think Aspley does?? Always see them when I stop in at Chermside or the Hypermarket around 2ish. Either that or they all skip school. Kedron finishes around 2.45 from my observations. Norris Road always gets out way before 3. I think they all get out around 2.30 because its always a mad house at that time going through bracken ridge.

[ozbob]

There is not a never empty bucket of money for PT fare discounts.  At this point we have done very well overall.

Once the new fare structure is embedded, patronage will grow and there will be opportunities for further enhancements.

The go card system cannot handle a differential system for having some cards peak and others non peak at the same time.  It is all in, all out.  Students paying peak concessions is just a fact of life. Tough.

[nathandavid88]

What high schools finish before 3pm.  My high school always finished at 3:30, and i always got the 3:41 great circle line bus.  I don't know of any high school that regularly finishes before 3.

I apologise, that was a typo on my part. It should have said "by 3:30pm", as the vast majority of schools are let out at 3pm. That said, my teacher brother has taught at a few schools that do finish before 3pm, and two schools near me – Mabel Park SHS and Loganlea SHS – I'm pretty certain are both let out at 2:45pm.   

I expect more a discount for travelling on weekends and off peak times, even if it means hiking the peak fare to compensate.

As I said, the majority of public transport use is during the week, which is when we most need people to use public transport (to reduce road congestion). Why do you feel the majority of public transport users should be slugged to provide a further discount to already discounted weekend rates, a time when public transport will never be as largely utilised as during peak? Provision of public transport on weekends is important, and providing incentives to use that weekends service isn't a bad thing, but providing weekend incentives that rely on slugging weekday commuters to fund it really goes against the grain of when getting people off the road and onto PT is most vital.

If seniors can get a 2 then free, it should be extended to all concessions.

Not all concession holders are the same, which is why not all concession rates should be the same. A concession card could equally be held by a stylish twenty-something university student dressed in all brand name clothing and toting a brand new Macbook, as it can an elderly person who is on a pension and may not have any other way of getting around due to failing eyesight. The university student really doesn't need free fares, and the concession is provided as a State Government contribution towards their education. The pensioner, on the other hand, is on a low income (pension), has failing eyesight and is at risk of social isolation as a result. This is a case where a 2 then free scheme, or something similar, is potentially of vital importance to that pensioner's mental wellbeing.     

Even with my concession discount, these fares won't make my consider PT on the weekend, especially with our awful service.

That is your opinion of the value of the discounts, it's not necessarily one that everyone shares. I would consider paying 50% of the already discounted off peak weekend fares a great incentive to continue using public transport over the weekend. The free fares for children under 14 would see friends of mine with children now consider using PT for family outings, where before they wouldn't even consider it due to cost. My mother, who doesn't commute, finds just the 20% discount of off peak fares enough to use PT over the weekend, with the 2 then free as an added bonus. Everyone has different expectations of what sort of a discount should be offered, but not everyone's expectations can be met, especially when some expectations aren't necessarily realistic.

I would also like to see PT heavily discounted on weekends so PT can be considered a real transport option for those drinking and going out late at night.

Fares are not the thing that needs to be fixed with regards to Nightlink services – the fact that people opt to spend substantially more money on taxis or uber to get home shows this. The thing needed to fix Nightlink is more routes so as to service more people, higher frequency running (half hourly) to make it more convenient a service, and for the trains to play a bigger role than providing a single service at 3:30am.   

[verbatim9]

I did the feedback survey and in free format mentioned all door boarding and weekend / Public holiday caps when next generation ticketing comes into effect. Paper tickets should go by then too I hope?

[HappyTrainGuy]

I would also like to see PT heavily discounted on weekends so PT can be considered a real transport option for those drinking and going out late at night.

Fares are not the thing that needs to be fixed with regards to Nightlink services – the fact that people opt to spend substantially more money on taxis or uber to get home shows this. The thing needed to fix Nightlink is more routes so as to service more people, higher frequency running (half hourly) to make it more convenient a service, and for the trains to play a bigger role than providing a single service at 3:30am.   

Ideally this is where a better network comes into play. Take the Translink network for the northside a few years back. The northern loop route (which would be implemented mid 2016) would have taken advantage of this if it was set up as a nightlink route due to the 1 route passing so many interchanges. 1 bus to chermside then onto the loop bus. 1 train to Carseldine then onto the loop route. 1 train to Boondall then onto the loop route. 1 bus to Aspley then onto the very same loop route. You could also establish it in such a way that taxis could meet the trains/buses at these same interchange hubs. Given the proposed running hours of the Caboolture and Kippa Ring railway lines having nearly a 24hr frequency over the weekend when combined with the nightlink services for City-Petrie is a missed opportunity all because a few bus stops in Upper Brookfield wanted knitted shelters.

[aldonius]

I did the feedback survey and in free format mentioned all door boarding and weekend / Public holiday caps when next generation ticketing comes into effect. Paper tickets should go by then too I hope?

We'll be rid of paper tickets at the same time we're rid of cash.

[verbatim9]

I did the feedback survey and in free format mentioned all door boarding and weekend / Public holiday caps when next generation ticketing comes into effect. Paper tickets should go by then too I hope?

We'll be rid of paper tickets at the same time we're rid of cash.

There was a question in the survey pertaining to rid the system of paper tickets

[City Designer]

I'm impressed that the reviewed fare structure does not penalise any users because they have to cross the new zones.

Although everyone can get further for their dollars somebody going from fixed point A to fixed point B doesn't care about that.

[James]

Fares are not the thing that needs to be fixed with regards to Nightlink services – the fact that people opt to spend substantially more money on taxis or uber to get home shows this. The thing needed to fix Nightlink is more routes so as to service more people, higher frequency running (half hourly) to make it more convenient a service, and for the trains to play a bigger role than providing a single service at 3:30am.   

A lot of this is actually perception - some people either don't know the service exists, are reluctant to walk home from the bus stop alone, or simply catch cabs out of habit or convenience. People going home also tend to go home in groups, making economies of scale more attractive. I tend to be the exception, I prefer to return to my own bed.

With the 3am last drinks coming in though, NightLink could potentially have its frequency bumped in exchange for reduced span of hours. With clubs closing at 3am come July 1, there'll be absolutely no need for a NightLink bus at 5am. Agree on trains needing to provide a much better service. I'd prefer hourly bustitution to what runs currently.

[tazzer9]

Here is an idea for Nightlight, on the inner ferny grove, inner cleveland, airport(towards airport only), gold coast, 370, 380, 444, 412, 340.  Why not hire maxi cabs to essentially run the routes instead of busses.   Pay the cabbies $20 an hour, plus a reasonably small cash fare like $2 per passenger which the cabbies keep.  Run them every 30 mins.  The smell of guaranteed money on a weekday night would mean most wouldn't turn it down. 

An initiative like this would cost less than 2 million a year, or less than what it costs the government if someone is killed by a drink driver.   This initiative might even end up saving the state government money.

[ozbob]

Redland City Bulletin --> Islands 'dudded' with unfair fare zones: MP

[Cam]

I agree with most of the reform proposals but not with the reduction of fare zones. Why should someone travelling from Moorooka to the city pay the same amount as when they travel from Kingston to the city? It's three times the distance - approx 9km v 27km.

Likewise for Sherwood & Redbank. A short journey in the city costs as much as travelling from Graceville or Yeerongpilly.

[Derwan]

I agree with most of the reform proposals but not with the reduction of fare zones. Why should someone travelling from Moorooka to the city pay the same amount as when they travel from Kingston to the city? It's three times the distance - approx 9km v 27km.

Likewise for Sherwood & Redbank. A short journey in the city costs as much as travelling from Graceville or Yeerongpilly.

Yeah - on face value it looks like we're moving away from per-kilometre charging instead of towards it.  But I think it's part of a greater plan.  It'll be interesting to see what happens with next generation ticketing.

[Stillwater]

That focusses on travel through zones, but the zones are also formed to facilitate and encourage travel within one zone, or into an adjacent zone (to the shops, or the doctor's surgery etc.).  Not all travel by everyone involves a journey to the city of Brisbane by bus, ferry or train.  A balance must be struck and the changes are reasonable.  We are yet to have new generation ticketing that will allow for greater flexibility.  Can we just agree that the fare review process has improved the situation -- perfection (however defined) might take a bit longer, and certainly can't occur until the next generation ticketing/fare system.

[#Metro]

Derwan is right in the sense that whatever was proposed must work with the 'old' smartcard system.

I would like to see the end of these smartcards and move to using phone as the swipe on or off. I'm not fully comfortable with

using a bank card to touch on or off as you have to take your card out, people can see the number, might lose it etc.


If anyone wants to present a 'perfect' fare system or one that is significantly better than what the fare review proposed

(doubt it) then they are free to suggest so.

[ozbob]

A couple of things ...

Time to move on folks.  Do you really think an expert panel with access to all the ticketing data and trip information will come up with anything other than what is the best option considering the limitations of the present day go card system and the geographic constraints associated with the large SEQ area?  Self opinionated hunches simply don't cut it anymore.

The Next Generation Ticketing system will have a smart card but it will also have open payment.  This means you could theoretically use instead of the ' go smart card ' a phone, a smart watch, a direct debit or credit bank card, and maybe a chip in your forehead ( ). It will be your choice.

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2016/6/23/fare-relief-will-help-bust-congestion

JOINT STATEMENT
Premier and Minister for the Arts
The Honourable Annastacia Palaszczuk

Minister for Transport and the Commonwealth Games
The Honourable Stirling Hinchliffe

Fare relief will help bust congestion

The Palaszczuk Government's Fairer Fares package will take the pressure off our congested roads, with cheaper public transport fares expected to drive patronage growth.

Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk said reducing fares and extending off peak travel periods would encourage more people in South East Queensland to use public transport.

"My Government's Fairer Fares delivers real cost of living relief to public transport users and will make it more affordable to catch a bus, train, tram or ferry to get to your destination," the Premier said.

"That's why growing patronage and addressing affordability was a key priority for my Government.

"Public transport fares will be cheaper across the board under our Fairer Fares package, with commuters expected to save between four and 34 percent per trip.

"We've also extended the off peak period from 3am to 6am to help shift demand and tackle congestion by encouraging more early morning commuters to get to work using public transport.

"Cheaper public transport fares will attract more public transport users with new modelling predicting an extra eight million trips a year under the new package, which will take seven million cars off roads in South East Queensland.

"By making public transport more affordable, we'll help take more cars of the road and ease congestion."

Minister for Transport Stirling Hinchliffe said more than 93 percent of public transport users will save money, with cheaper fares across the board, reduced travel zones and extended off peak savings.

"Our Fairer Fares package is the largest investment in public transport services in a decade and will help get more people on board bus, train, tram and ferry services," Mr Hinchliffe said.

"Despite promising a Fare Review, under the former LNP Government public transport patronage numbers dropped by more than 2 million trips.

"The Fairer Fares package will help to get more people back on public transport with 93 percent of people better off under the cheaper fare structure.

"The modelling confirms that this major investment isn't just an investment that will benefit regular public transport users, it's an investment that will help ease congestion for drivers right across South East Queensland battling in heavy traffic.

"To date people in South East Queensland have visited the Fairer Fares website to calculate how much they will save on more than 25,000 journeys."

State Member for Nudgee Leanne Linard said local public transport users will save money under the Palaszczuk Government's new Fairer Fares Package with cheaper fares and a reduced number of travel zones.

"Regular commuters who travel from Westfield Chermside to the CBD five days a week could save more than $328.32 per year under the Fairer Fares Package" Ms Linard said.

"These savings and the simplification of the travel zones will make it more affordable and more convenient to use public transport instead of your car."

For more information about the fare change online, you can view the Taskforce report and the Government Response.

For more information about the fare reform or to have your say, visit the fairer fares website

[tazzer9]

While this isn't translinks area, I also would have liked to have seen automatic caps applied for frequent users of Airtrain.   The current system is so stupid and is very limited to those who can use it. 
Sydney has a cap of $25 a week for the airtrain surcharge. which is less than two trips anyway. 

[verbatim9]

While this isn't translinks area, I also would have liked to have seen automatic caps applied for frequent users of Airtrain.   The current system is so stupid and is very limited to those who can use it. 
Sydney has a cap of $25 a week for the airtrain surcharge. which is less than two trips anyway.

That would be nice for Airport workers.

[ozbob]

There is a special fare for airport workers.  Details used to be on the Airtrain website but has disappeared since they updated the site.

Probably don't want the wider public to know.

It used to be $35 for a weekly equivalent, unrestricted travel Eagle Junction - BNE

[CQRail]

Staff tickets and prices are still mentioned. Tucked away in the 'ways to travel' section

https://airtrain.com.au/ways-to-travel

Airtrain offers discounted Airtrain tickets for all workers within the Brisbane Airport Precinct.

What you need to purchase tickets
To take advantage of this special offer you need to produce your current ASIC card or a letter confirming your employment at the Brisbane Airport to Airtrain station staff at either the International or Domestic stations.

Brisbane Airport workers tickets are available for travel between the Brisbane Airport stations and the following Brisbane City stations: South Brisbane, Roma Street, Central, Fortitude Valley, Bowen Hills and Eagle Junction. Travel beyond these stations will require an additional ticket which can be purchased from your local Queensland Rail station or the Airtrain stations.

Weekly Ticket - $37.00
The weekly paper ticket allows you unlimited travel between the Brisbane Airport and Brisbane City stations for a 7 day period.

Book of 20 Tickets - $120.00
These tickets are ideal for shift workers and others that don't work at the airport every weekday.

[ozbob]

^ thanks!

[ozbob]

TransLink public transport performance snapshots

May 2016 > https://publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/translink-public-transport-performance-snapshots/resource/3a89e269-4a03-417e-a56e-040be593b435

KPI Summary



Affordability KPI

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

6th July 2016

TransLink public transport performance snapshot May 2016

Greetings,

Latest data snapshot available:  https://publications.qld.gov.au/dataset/translink-public-transport-performance-snapshots/resource/3a89e269-4a03-417e-a56e-040be593b435

The ' Affordability ' KPI remains the standout failure.  The new fare structure cannot come fast enough hey?

It is time light rail (tram) was included in this data.  Tram is carrying more passengers than ferry for example, so it should be included in our opinion.

Is TransLink to lazy to sort this out?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

KPI Summary



Affordability KPI

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/07/un-fair-short-vs-long-distance-journey.html
Un-fair? Short vs long distance journey fare comparison.

[ozbob]

Nice work!

===============

BrizCommuter: Un-fair? Short vs Long Distance Journey Costs > https://t.co/7YMWXTdTXW ... #qldpol #nswpol #springst #wapol

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) July 17, 2016

Melbourne fares are absurdly cheap.  I think SEQ strikes a reasonable balance. It has the most expensive long commute fares of the cities looked at in Oz.

If you look at the fare review, the taskforce wanted shorter distance cheaper and longer a little more expensive than what the Government finally decided on. 

Small typo, Perth City has a Free Transit Zone for buses and a SmartRider Free Transit Zone for trains ( http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/tickets-fares/free-travel ).  I think you meant ' tram only in Melbourne ' not Perth. The Melbourne Free Tram Zone - interestingly there is a bit of local angst wrt to the FTZ, people cannot get on trams in the Melbourne CBD, frequently ...  I am not sure how long it will last.

[Gazza]

I'm not fully comfortable with

using a bank card to touch on or off as you have to take your card out, people can see the number, might lose it etc.

What do you do when using Tap n Go at other places where people might see it close to you? Supermarket self serve for example.

[BrizCommuter]

Will the go card rort still be possible with the new fare system from January 2017?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/08/still-doing-go-card-rort.html

[ozbob]

^

It is well understood that it is still possible to '  manipulate  ' fares with the 8 and 50% however a fare box is still coming in, rather than an open ended money drain on the fare box. As your calculations have shown, it is trivial really, both in quantum and the numbers.

It is the best that can be done under the present system limitations.  Next generation ticketing will be account based and all options on the table.