Daylight saving - discussion

[achiruel]

If there's to be a daylight savings border bubble, it should be that those on the other side of the Tweed don't have it. There's far more people living in SEQ than the northern rivers of NSW.

Broken Hill NSW already operates on SA time, so why not have a few shires along the Qld border operate on AEST?

[achiruel]

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235904928_The_impact_of_daylight_saving_time_on_sleep_and_related_behaviours

Daylight saving time is currently adopted in over 70 countries and imposes a twice yearly 1 h change in local clock time. Relative ease in adjustment of sleep patterns is assumed by the general population but this review suggests that the scientific data challenge a popular understanding of the clock change periods. The start of daylight saving time in the spring is thought to lead to the relatively inconsequential loss of 1 h of sleep on the night of the transition, but data suggests that increased sleep fragmentation and sleep latency present a cumulative effect of sleep loss, at least across the following week, perhaps longer. The autumn transition is often popularised as a gain of 1 h of sleep but there is little evidence of extra sleep on that night. The cumulative effect of five consecutive days of earlier rise times following the autumn change again suggests a net loss of sleep across the week. Indirect evidence of an increase in traffic accident rates, and change in health and regulatory behaviours which may be related to sleep disruption suggest that adjustment to daylight saving time is neither immediate nor without consequence.

[achiruel]

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/09/daylight-saving-time-sleep-health-research/

Many countries change their clocks twice a year.
But scientists from the American Academy of Sleep Medicine have called for an end to the practice, saying it causes disruption to circadian rhythms.
Disrupted sleep is associated with many health problems, from stress to strokes.

The EU is also ditching DST. It's about time Australia woke up to the many disadvantages of DST and did the same. It's bad for your health.

[red dragin]

Waking up at 4.30am in summer because it's light ain't great for mine either.

I believe our actual time zone needs tweaking by about 20 minutes. So closer to SA/NT than we are now.

[achiruel]

I'd have no issue with moving our time on a permanent basis. It's the constant switching back and forward that's the problem.

[verbatim9]

Couriermail.com.au---> Calls for a border bubble for daylight savings

The success of the border bubble has inspired a new push to deal with one of Queensland's perennial problems - daylight savings.

There are fresh calls for a daylight savings 'border bubble' as the annual time zone nightmare clocks on for another year.

Queensland will awaken on Sunday one hour behind the times of the rest of the east coast amid predictions the disruption will cost the state's economy more than $4 billion in lost productivity.

'A no brainer': Demand for daylight savings on Coast

Coast businesses 'fed up' waiting for daylight saving change

It comes as a lobby group campaigns for a petition to gather 100,000 signatures calling for a fresh trial of daylight savings just four weeks out from a Queensland election where neither major party is keen to discuss the issue.

Daylight savings advocate and University of Queensland senior lecturer in human geography, Doctor Thomas Sigler, said as the coronavirus pandemic wreaked havoc with the economy, there had 'never been a better time' to reignite the debate.

"The Queensland economy needs a rocket and daylight savings is free – it doesn't cost a cent," he said.

"The industries hardest hit by the pandemic – tourism, hospitality, retail, are precisely the sectors that would benefit the most from daylight savings."

He said the advent of the border bubble to allow seamless movements between northern NSW and southern Queensland during the COVID-19 pandemic was proof the regions could work together under one time zone if there was no statewide adoption of daylight savings.

"We advocate for both positions, either Queensland-wide or just the southeast corner, whichever suits the politicians better."

David Jones from the lobby group DS4SEQ said the state had evolved since the 1992 referendum and it was 'ludicrous' to deny Queenslanders another say on the issue.

"Anyone born after 1974 or anyone who has moved to Queensland in the last 28 years has not had a say on this," he said.

"Southeast Queensland has a million more people than it did in 1992 and that's a million people whose views haven't been taken in to account."

He said the longitude of western Queensland – often the most vocal critics of daylight savings, was more in line with SA than the southeast which relied on ties to the rest of the east coast.

He said he did not expect either major political party to take the issue to the election, but believed the new four-year term of government would be the perfect platform to trial daylight savings again.

"They (political parties) have made a political football out of this, but with four-year terms there's no reason why you can't have a trial in the middle of a term and it wouldn't affect any election because the next one is still years away."

Chamber of Commerce and Industry Queensland general manager of advocacy and policy Amanda Rohan said different parts of the state had different views on DST.

"The vast size of Queensland means there are differing priorities for regions, including the impact and need for daylight saving on business needs and operations," she said.

Not surprisingly, a spokesman for the Premier said the government would not 'be changing its position on Daylight Saving'.

Current Poll results from 5,319 Voters - 64% Yes 36% No

[timh]

Couriermail.com.au---> Calls for a border bubble for daylight savings

The success of the border bubble has inspired a new push to deal with one of Queensland's perennial problems - daylight savings.

There are fresh calls for a daylight savings 'border bubble' as the annual time zone nightmare clocks on for another year.

Queensland will awaken on Sunday one hour behind the times of the rest of the east coast amid predictions the disruption will cost the state's economy more than $4 billion in lost productivity.

'A no brainer': Demand for daylight savings on Coast

Coast businesses 'fed up' waiting for daylight saving change

It comes as a lobby group campaigns for a petition to gather 100,000 signatures calling for a fresh trial of daylight savings just four weeks out from a Queensland election where neither major party is keen to discuss the issue.

Daylight savings advocate and University of Queensland senior lecturer in human geography, Doctor Thomas Sigler, said as the coronavirus pandemic wreaked havoc with the economy, there had 'never been a better time' to reignite the debate.

"The Queensland economy needs a rocket and daylight savings is free – it doesn't cost a cent," he said.

"The industries hardest hit by the pandemic – tourism, hospitality, retail, are precisely the sectors that would benefit the most from daylight savings."

He said the advent of the border bubble to allow seamless movements between northern NSW and southern Queensland during the COVID-19 pandemic was proof the regions could work together under one time zone if there was no statewide adoption of daylight savings.

"We advocate for both positions, either Queensland-wide or just the southeast corner, whichever suits the politicians better."

David Jones from the lobby group DS4SEQ said the state had evolved since the 1992 referendum and it was 'ludicrous' to deny Queenslanders another say on the issue.

"Anyone born after 1974 or anyone who has moved to Queensland in the last 28 years has not had a say on this," he said.

"Southeast Queensland has a million more people than it did in 1992 and that's a million people whose views haven't been taken in to account."

He said the longitude of western Queensland – often the most vocal critics of daylight savings, was more in line with SA than the southeast which relied on ties to the rest of the east coast.

He said he did not expect either major political party to take the issue to the election, but believed the new four-year term of government would be the perfect platform to trial daylight savings again.

"They (political parties) have made a political football out of this, but with four-year terms there's no reason why you can't have a trial in the middle of a term and it wouldn't affect any election because the next one is still years away."

Chamber of Commerce and Industry Queensland general manager of advocacy and policy Amanda Rohan said different parts of the state had different views on DST.

"The vast size of Queensland means there are differing priorities for regions, including the impact and need for daylight saving on business needs and operations," she said.

Not surprisingly, a spokesman for the Premier said the government would not 'be changing its position on Daylight Saving'.

Current Poll results from 5,319 Voters - 64% Yes 36% No

If that poll was taken from Courier Mail readers I'd hardly think that demographic represents a broad spectrum of Queenslanders....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[verbatim9]

Couriermail.com.au---> Calls for a border bubble for daylight savings

The success of the border bubble has inspired a new push to deal with one of Queensland's perennial problems - daylight savings.

There are fresh calls for a daylight savings 'border bubble' as the annual time zone nightmare clocks on for another year.

Queensland will awaken on Sunday one hour behind the times of the rest of the east coast amid predictions the disruption will cost the state's economy more than $4 billion in lost productivity.

'A no brainer': Demand for daylight savings on Coast

Coast businesses 'fed up' waiting for daylight saving change

It comes as a lobby group campaigns for a petition to gather 100,000 signatures calling for a fresh trial of daylight savings just four weeks out from a Queensland election where neither major party is keen to discuss the issue.

Daylight savings advocate and University of Queensland senior lecturer in human geography, Doctor Thomas Sigler, said as the coronavirus pandemic wreaked havoc with the economy, there had 'never been a better time' to reignite the debate.

"The Queensland economy needs a rocket and daylight savings is free – it doesn't cost a cent," he said.

"The industries hardest hit by the pandemic – tourism, hospitality, retail, are precisely the sectors that would benefit the most from daylight savings."

He said the advent of the border bubble to allow seamless movements between northern NSW and southern Queensland during the COVID-19 pandemic was proof the regions could work together under one time zone if there was no statewide adoption of daylight savings.

"We advocate for both positions, either Queensland-wide or just the southeast corner, whichever suits the politicians better."

David Jones from the lobby group DS4SEQ said the state had evolved since the 1992 referendum and it was 'ludicrous' to deny Queenslanders another say on the issue.

"Anyone born after 1974 or anyone who has moved to Queensland in the last 28 years has not had a say on this," he said.

"Southeast Queensland has a million more people than it did in 1992 and that's a million people whose views haven't been taken in to account."

He said the longitude of western Queensland – often the most vocal critics of daylight savings, was more in line with SA than the southeast which relied on ties to the rest of the east coast.

He said he did not expect either major political party to take the issue to the election, but believed the new four-year term of government would be the perfect platform to trial daylight savings again.

"They (political parties) have made a political football out of this, but with four-year terms there's no reason why you can't have a trial in the middle of a term and it wouldn't affect any election because the next one is still years away."

Chamber of Commerce and Industry Queensland general manager of advocacy and policy Amanda Rohan said different parts of the state had different views on DST.

"The vast size of Queensland means there are differing priorities for regions, including the impact and need for daylight saving on business needs and operations," she said.

Not surprisingly, a spokesman for the Premier said the government would not 'be changing its position on Daylight Saving'.

Current Poll results from 5,319 Voters - 64% Yes 36% No

If that poll was taken from Courier Mail readers I'd hardly think that demographic represents a broad spectrum of Queenslanders....

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Even though not a scientific poll. Any poll that has been conducted on the matter runs between 55%-60% in favour for reintroduction of Daylight Saving. Maybe it has to do with the population shift with many people living South of Rockhampton now.. Plus the added population from the Southern States who are use to Daylight Saving for many years.

[verbatim9]

Brisbane Times ---> Brisbane Times Daylight Saving article  poll running at 51% in favour for reintroduction of Daylight Saving

[verbatim9]

If the Government can handle complex controversial Covid situations?  They can easily implement an easy solution for Daylight Saving. Western Qld (Mt ISA down to Birdsville) on SA time all year around, like Broken Hill in NSW. easy-peasy These towns would benefit being on SA time CDT/CST all year around, as they are slap bang in the middle of the Central time zone even though they are within the Qld political borders.

[achiruel]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/it-s-more-than-the-time-of-day-the-facts-behind-daylight-saving-20201001-p56181.html

"There's both an acute and a chronic issue with daylight saving," he said. "There are the problems that come when we switch over and everyone collectively loses an hour of sleep, which is understandable.

"But there are also the long-term issues which research is increasingly showing has a long-term cumulative effect."

Rather than Queensland, or any part of Queensland, adopting daylight savings, the southeastern states should eliminate it. It's not good for people's health.

[SurfRail]

I've never found arguments for or against it convincing in the slightest.

I think it's time for people to admit that it is ultimately a matter of personal preference rather than some public good or ill.

[Cazza]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/national/queensland/it-s-more-than-the-time-of-day-the-facts-behind-daylight-saving-20201001-p56181.html

"There's both an acute and a chronic issue with daylight saving," he said. "There are the problems that come when we switch over and everyone collectively loses an hour of sleep, which is understandable.

"But there are also the long-term issues which research is increasingly showing has a long-term cumulative effect."

Rather than Queensland, or any part of Queensland, adopting daylight savings, the southeastern states should eliminate it. It's not good for people's health.

I think you'll find that the impacts of daylight savings on someone's sleep and overall health is next to nothing and somewhat of a laughable argument. The border between SA and WA is 1hr, 30 mins difference. So that means, by crossing from SA to WA you are technically moving you clock backward 90mins, meaning you are staying up for an extra 90 mins, meaning you are now are extra fatigued and therefore have a higher risk of a stroke. Bam, science.

On that, how about all of the time zone changes/sleep loss associated with flying? Should we ban long distance flying because someone may have a slight increase of a stroke because they are now in a different timezone? My flight back from London in late January took 41 hours instead of the normal 24 (due to a delay out of Heathrow and a missed connection in Singapore). I didn't sleep for 24 hours straight at one point. I don't feel I've put myself in any sort of long term health dangers. Some people fly across the world on a monthly (if not more) basis.

Plus, no one sleeps the exact same length of time, night on night. No one has the same quality of sleep, night on night. No one falls asleep at the exact same time, night on night. No one wakes up (naturally) at the exact same time, night on night. No one has the exact same sleep patterns and dreams, night on night. I could go on...

If it really is that much of an issue losing 1 hour of sleep 1 day a year, either:
a- make sure you tell all the birds not to wake you up when the sun rises just after 4:40 am in late Nov/Dec;
b- make sure you let your neighbours know to never make any loud noises, or have any people over after 9pm because that is your bed time and you have to get your required 10 hours, 43 mins and 26 secs of sleep every, single, flipping night;
or
c- go to bed an hour earlier on the night before the clocks are moved forward!

On a more serious note, I understand that it's the changing of times twice a year, for many years that is the issue, not just a one off time. But, as just mentioned, many people travel through different timezones on a regular basis (think about FIFO workers or overseas business travellers [not so much now due to COVID but it will pick up again]). They do this weekly and would be more of a health impact than just a one hour change, twice a year. People's bodies and sleep patterns adapt to time changes within days (mostly) and it really isn't an issue.

I personally would prefer daylight savings for 3 main reasons:
1- having a consistent timezone up the east coast (for business and even just social reasons- I have plenty of family in Sydney/NSW and it makes it quite difficult to time flights. A flight leaving BNE after work at say 6:30pm (have to leave work by 5, get to airport by 5:30) doesn't get into Syd until 9pm. Add an extra 1 hour travel from SYD to my family's house on the North Shore and you're looking at 10pm arrival).
2- not having the sun come up so early in summer (4:40am sunrises are pretty ridiculous)
and of course, the most important reason: not being 30 mins behind Adelaide for 6 months a year

Although I'd prefer DLS, it doesn't bother me (or keep me up at night ) that we don't have it here in QLD.

[achiruel]

On a more serious note, I understand that it's the changing of times twice a year, for many years that is the issue, not just a one off time. But, as just mentioned, many people travel through different timezones on a regular basis (think about FIFO workers or overseas business travellers [not so much now due to COVID but it will pick up again]). They do this weekly and would be more of a health impact than just a one hour change, twice a year. People's bodies and sleep patterns adapt to time changes within days (mostly) and it really isn't an issue.

The health effects of frequent international travel and shift work are already quite well documented. The effects of DST are much the same, albeit on a smaller individual level, but population wide. Shift work and international travellers are compensated financially be receiving more generous salaries than they otherwise would. What is the compensation for the general population for the negative health effects of DST?

[verbatim9]

There has been no cause of death through Daylight Saving nor moving between time zones. Otherwise people would be dropping in droves when travelling from Sydney to Brisbane or vice versa. Anyone who votes against Daylight Saving thinking they will die of a heart attack with the time change needs their head checked. Lifespan between Eastern States are practically exactly the same.
In regards to shift work and travelling to and from the USA and Europe, its a completely different kettle of fish, as you are out of wack by 8-12 hours. Daylight Saving is an hour which is negligible. Most but if not 99.9% adjust the following day with no issues.

Any Doctor that says a heart condition  or death caused has been brought about by Daylight Saving really needs to double check his or her patient.

[verbatim9]

 Daylight Saving doesn't cause heart attacks, doesn't affect cows, doesn't cause skin cancer, doesn't add day length, doesn't make the work day longer, doesn't make it hotter, doesn't contribute to climate change and doesn't cause solar damage on any man made materials including curtains.

[SurfRail]

^ It also does nothing useful.

[Gazza]

ultimately I prefer daylight savings because it puts the usable daylight at the end of the day when more stuff tends to be happening.

For example we have late night shopping not early morning shopping.

when the extra daylight is in the morning you are ultimately up against having to get ready for work or school.

Whereas in the evening you can take as long as you want.

I would personally have a split time zone.

People up north avonlea aren't bothered by being out of sync with the rest of the eastern states, therefore why are they bothered about being out of sync with Brisbane?

[Cazza]

That's pretty much my stance on it Gazza. Although, as I said, it doesn't really bother me that we don't have it. There are bigger fish to fry.

[achiruel]

Daylight Saving doesn't cause heart attacks, doesn't affect cows, doesn't cause skin cancer, doesn't add day length, doesn't make the work day longer, doesn't make it hotter, doesn't contribute to climate change and doesn't cause solar damage on any man made materials including curtains.

So you're a medical researcher and know everything about the health effects of DST, right?

What's that, no? You're nothing but a barrow-pusher who's content to ignore all evidence that doesn't agree with your pre-determined positions. The research is out there, DST does have adverse health effects. The fact you choose to bury your head in the sand doesn't change that.

[Cazza]

There's also research out there saying the Earth is flat. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's true...

[AnonymouslyBad]

^ Sleep is crucial to health.
It follows that DST would, on paper, have some kind of negative health impact.
It's also no different to going to bed an hour past your bedtime, which is something most of us do often. ...or every day
So let's not get caught up in some weird false dichotomy that it's either healthy (ridiculous) or unhealthy (very exaggerated).

Anyway, what great timing: DST kicks off this year in the same month as a state election!
Newspapers can wheel out this incredibly minor but divisive issue twice as much as usual!

The reality has never and will never change. SEQ would in the main like daylight savings, (reasonably so), northern and western Queensland would in the main loathe it, (also reasonably so), and what solution you favour just depends what bubble you live in and how much of a damn you give about anyone outside that bubble.

[verbatim9]

^ Sleep is crucial to health.

99.9% of people adjust within the first 24 hours of Daylight Saving. It's just an hour.

[Gazza]

I support it but come on it takes more than a few days.

It's like how on weekends you wake up at your normal time due to your body clock, even if you were intending to sleep in.

[verbatim9]

Couriermail.com.au--->Queensland needs daylight saving to help rebuild pandemic-hit economy

Daylight Saving Time is a heated topic that is debated twice every year. So what are the arguments of those for and against the time shift?

But there is just one minor thing missing that would make Queensland even more perfect than it is: daylight saving.

But the southeast is yet again trapped in the annual hamster wheel of 4am rises and 6.30pm darkness.

Why does it seem so hard for politicians to accept that daylight saving is a necessity?

It's mind boggling that it wasn't included as a simple question on the ballot at the recent election.

There are the obvious economic benefits and COVID-19 has only highlighted the appeal. ...

Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk

[verbatim9]

I always find in summer is that the last two hours of the day are good. The sun is not too high the breeze is up and the temps have dropped. If we can shift that to 5pm-8pm that would be great

I also find that the humidity always spikes as soon as the sun is down. I rather it up for longer into the early evening.

It would also be better in the mornings because people would get up closer to dawn and the UV alert wouldn't set in until after 9.15am instead 8.15am as it's now. So safer UV aware walks and active travel in the mornings for all.

From 5pn-8pm people can also obtain much needed safe levels of UV Sunlight which is vital for Vitamin D.

[HappyTrainGuy]

TBH who really cares.

[verbatim9]

TBH who really cares.

Over 55% of people in Qld do according to latest polls and surveys. Even more in Se Qld..

Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk

[HappyTrainGuy]

TBH who really cares.

Over 55% of people in Qld do according to latest polls and surveys. Even more in Se Qld..

Sent from my moto g(6) plus using Tapatalk

What polls?

[achiruel]

^ statistically-invalid self-selected ones from media organisations publishing false information about the benefits and disadvantages of DST, such as The Courier-Mail.

[HappyTrainGuy]

^ statistically-invalid self-selected ones from media organisations publishing false information about the benefits and disadvantages of DST, such as The Courier-Mail.

Again. What polls???

[verbatim9]

^ statistically-invalid self-selected ones from media organisations publishing false information about the benefits and disadvantages of DST, such as The Courier-Mail.

^ statistically-invalid self-selected ones from media organisations publishing false information about the benefits and disadvantages of DST, such as The Courier-Mail.

Again. What polls???

They are not false polls. Polls have been conducted from many sources not just the CM. If the Guardian polled the Public on the issue a majority result would be likely that reflects other media polls Over the years many Victorians, New South Waleans, Nz'ers have all called Qlld home and are use to the concept.  Many Qlders experience longer days while interstate and overseas and would like the concept adopted in Qld. The polls reflect their sentiments.

[achiruel]

I don't care what media organisation runs them, whether it's The Courier-Mail, The Guardian or Green Left Weekly, the fact remains that self-selecting polls have no statistical validity.

[verbatim9]

1990 was a landmark year in Queensland. It was the first full year of the Labor Goss Government after the end of the Joh era. Latest breaking news headlines | 7NEWS.com.au @patricklion #7NEWS https://t.co/XCbgGtmEX9

[MEDIA=twitter]1344935536625033223[/MEDIA]

^^Secret Goss files released reignites Daylight Saving debate in Queensland #DaylightSaving #Qld #qldpol

[verbatim9]

Calls for Daylight Saving in Qld

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=414471209884941

[verbatim9]

https://twitter.com/abcbrisbane/status/1344773557079838720

[verbatim9]

It will be great to have Daylight Saving back in Qld from Oct 2021.

[achiruel]

It will be great to have Daylight Saving back in Qld from Oct 2021.

No, it wouldn't.

DST makes no sense in tropical and subtropical areas.

[verbatim9]

It will be great to have Daylight Saving back in Qld from Oct 2021.

No, it wouldn't.

DST makes no sense in tropical and subtropical areas.

Singapore, Malaysia and Hawaii implemented permanent Daylight Saving to correct sunrise and sunset times. It's has nothing to do with climate but just geographical location with in a specific timezone. Most of East.Qld is in the incorrect time zone as well. Daylight saving from Oct to Apr would be beneficial. Plus it would improve logistics with the southern states

[achiruel]

If you're going to use time correction as a reason, then NSW should abandon DST, rather than Qld adopt it. Solar noon in Brisbane is quite close to 12pm for three entire year, but I'm Sydney it's closer to 1pm during DST. Same with Singapore, so they haven't "fixed" sunrise and sunset at all, they're just pretending midday is actually at 1pm.