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Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) instead of free after x paid journeys?

No
1 (5.3%)
Yes
16 (84.2%)
Other
2 (10.5%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Author Topic: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?  (Read 3146 times)

Offline ozbob

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Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« on: September 17, 2014, 07:42:35 AM »
There is little doubt that the free after 9 journeys is not really working as intended.  It is too easily rorted eg. unnecessary lunch time one stoppers, bus ferry or rail early in the week to offset higher commutes later in the week.  Personally I find it very distressing observing the battlers struggling to pay fares to get to the local shopping centre on a bus, knowing that cashed up 'suits' can rort so easily.  Mums with children cannot rort in the same way, as for many others.

Introduced on the go card as free after 10 paid journeys in the week by the ALP as a knee-jerk reaction to worsening fare affordability in 2012, was easily and lazily trumped by LNP as free after 9 paid journeys. Fare unaffordability has simply worsened since, patronage fallen or at best stagnation.

The go card could be fixed and put on a sensible fare path by introducing for example a dynamic cap. Simple flat daily caps as for Melbourne, Sydney and say London will not work on SEQ because of the high zone differences, from zones 1 to 23. We are dealing with smart cards.  A daily cap of say 2 times the highest cost paid journey in a 24 hour period would stop the rorting, but still provide plenty of free trips during the day as desired but importantly return a fare box.  A weekly cap could simply be 4 times highest daily cap fares.  This would allow reduction in base fares and then means PT is more affordable for all, from the first journey in a week till the 55th for example.  It would also improve the fare box, directly in preserved fare revenue but encourage folk back on board.

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Offline STB

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2014, 08:20:41 AM »
Yes, but only if you get perks for frequent travel, whether that's half price, a fixed price for a day's travel after a certain number of journeys (eg: half of the daily cap), or free travel after a certain number of journeys or after you've reached the weekly cap. 

I certainly think too that concession users should get free travel outright after a certain number of journeys both daily and weekly if that means that the adult users pick up the slack for that and perhaps pay half price for example after a certain number of journeys in a week.

If it was a simple daily cap without any other perk for frequent travel, I don't think that would be terribly attractive to users.

Given that we live in a 24/7 society as well, I think that people should be able to choose when their week starts, as obviously not everyone lives or works nowadays in a Monday to Friday set up.

The daily cap could simply be the cost of a return journey, plus one extra, from the zone that you touch on for the first time in that day or 12 or 24hr period from your last touch off, you would pay for three journeys.  Eg: For Zones 1-5 a daily cap would be $15.12 ($5.03+$5.03+$5.03).  Another way could be that the daily cap be simply the maximum zones for an adult (half for concession); ie: zones 1-23 is $22.48 (round it up to $22.50) with concession being half that ie: $11.24 ($11.25 rounded up).

A weekly cap could be up to 8 journeys and then the cost of traveling either drops by half or is free, or adults half price and concession users free or a fixed price eg: no more than $2.50 per day until the week starts up again.  Or you could pay it in bulk for the zones you select and get unlimited travel within those zones (eg: zones 1-5 $5.03 x 8 journeys = $40.24 (round up to $40.25)) and if you go outside of those zones, it becomes a PAYG scenario.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2014, 08:34:49 AM »
Under my model, a punter doing a regular Mon - Fri commute would be travelling free from Friday ..

A person who only does a couple of days PT use would be paying cheap upfront  fares, with the advantage of a daily cap.

I am not overly concerned with detail though.  I think the free after X journey model is flawed, without some sort of capping to preserve fare box.

 :mu:
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 08:42:08 AM »
Just copy Perth.
No perks, scams, rorts or frills. Just everyday low fares and passes.
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Offline Cam

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 08:56:48 AM »
Just copy Perth.
No perks, scams, rorts or frills. Just everyday low fares and passes.

I agree.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 08:58:36 AM »
Perth has a daily cap ...  http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/tickets-fares/special-fares

Please note that SmartRider passengers who meet the DayRider conditions will have their fare capped at the DayRider rate.

Also Familyrider ticket ... $12.10 2 adults and up to 5 children ..

They don't have the free after x nonsense ..

This is what needs to go ..
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 09:06:41 AM »
Just copy Perth.
No perks, scams, rorts or frills. Just everyday low fares and passes.

Perth fares are good, no doubt.  Whether there is the political courage to do it is a moot point.

Auto-topup even gets more discount  on Smartrider ...

Imagine the horror in George St to suggest such a thing!   :P
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Offline aldonius

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 10:13:40 AM »
I've fluctuated between several positions and no doubt will continue to do so; currently I support a weekly cap: "x most expensive journeys count".

Offline James

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 11:38:57 AM »
I support a daily/weekly cap over the 9 then free system. Daily cap - 2 then free, with only the two highest trips counting. And then a weekly cap - 9 then free, with only the 9 most expensive trips counting.

Personally though, if we were going from scratch (new fare system), I would scrap capping all together and allow for the loading of periodicals (weekly, monthly, 3/6/12-monthly) on to one's go card, and have only a daily cap similar to above (which could be replaced by a daily periodical anyway).
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 02:57:54 PM »
I am ambivalent on this question.

I think as-the-crow-flies distance based charging is the best way to go.  This requires the abolition of paper ticketing and 100% go card or similar (NFC, paypass etc).  Charge by the km ($0.20 peak, $0.15 offpeak) and with a $1.00 flagfall.  May need fine-tuning to ensure it is still delivering appropriate revenue but this should improve patronage over short distances in spades, which is the real purpose. 
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Offline aldonius

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 06:10:32 PM »
On the subject of paper, I've come to the conclusion that a paper single is the wrong product. It should be a paper daily; slightly less extortionate compared to go card because now only about 2/3 as many must be sold.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 09:24:04 PM »
More I think about it, under a proper distance based charging system I don't think capping is either necessary or even appropriate.  If individual journeys are sufficiently cheap you will be generating enough revenue from higher patronage that you should be able to afford to keep the distance increment cost (eg cost per km) at a level which still spurs on more demand.  The point should be contesting as much of the market as is possible in non CBD travel which is where the highest potential gains can be made - particularly given pricing is likely to play a stronger role for non CBD travel than CBD oriented travel where parking is constrained and congestion common.

For a system basically like ours at present, I think it is appropriate in some form.
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Offline pandmaster

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 12:15:56 AM »
When Melbourne introduced Myki they were very careful to make sure people did not pay more for the privilege than MetCards. They kept dailies in the form of the cap and periodicals in that you can load them on to the card. SEQ used to have daily, weekly, monthly and yearly tickets which for some reason were abolished when Go Cards came along. I think Melbourne has it right by offering a daily "ticket" and periodicals. Admittedly, the fare structures to Geelong, Ballarat, Bendigo, etc... and their buses are different from Melbourne, unlike SEQ. I used to do the odd day trip to Brisbane from the Sunshine Coast and the lack of a daily ticket really stacked up when making the return trip and 2-3 journeys around Brisbane. The system is geared up towards twice a day commuters and the peak and off-peak loads reflect that. I think zones work well, though perhaps reducing the number would make sense.

TL;DR: I support daily capping at the cost of any "return" trips that can be found then adding on any additional "one-way" zones to get the cheapest fare. Periodicals should also be available. The pre-Go Card paper tickets should have been kept.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 03:39:45 AM »
@ RTT SEQ has a huge zone differential eg  one zone fare $5.20 paper peak go $3.53
  23 zone fare paper $32.60 peak go $22.48 

A dynamic cap equitably allows a fair daily cap.  Under my proposal unnecessary lunch time trips will not be a rort.  The cap is based on the highest paid journey for the 24 hour period x 2.

NSW just has broad zones and are very cheap, so caps on Opal etc. easily done in their context. 
How long they are economically sustainable is another question for another day.

================

All, thanks for your comments and polling.  It is clear that people who care (us) do understand the flawed nature of the present fare structure in SEQ.

Paper single tickets are an obscenity, not only in the rip-off costs but the other issues - time limits, delays and so forth.

It is up to us to drive proper reform, with community education and consultation. Political parties seem content to do nothing in main. 

A fair fare for all is the aim, that is economically sustainable - reverse fare box slide, provide support for more services as it will drive proper patronage on peak and out of peak services.  This then generates the broad macro-economic benefits for all the community and will help activate the economy.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2014, 07:10:51 AM »
There is no perfect fare system. Long distance riders will want cheaper fares for equity reasons, inner city residents will want cheaper fares for short distances, regular commuters will want cheaper fares for bulk use, infrequent users will want cheaper fares for 'encouragement', as you can see these options are all mutually contradictory.

I am happy with the zones system, but then I can also see an alternative proposal where you have regional zoning, for example, a Gold Coast zone, an Ipswich zone, a Brisbane Zone, a Logan Zone, a Sunshine Coast zone and a Kippa Ring Zone where within the zone you have a single uniform fare. Indeed, I think this is the way Switzerland organises things, you have this 'patchwork' of different cantons and tariff regions all sewn together.

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Offline STB

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2014, 07:54:46 AM »
I too think the number of zones could be reduced. 

I also think that people on concessions should be at least allowed to some sort of free travel after a certain number of journeys in a week (while also capped), simply because those people don't have the money to keep spending on day to day things, like public transport, and I know when I was a student, the free travel got me out of a jam on many occasions while living on less than $400 a fortnight,  as it did for many of my friends. 

Those on adult fares, then I'm fine with them to keep paying on a daily basis (capped), as per Perth, as they would presumably can afford to do it, perhaps going half fare or a fixed fare no matter where you travel on a weekend would then be an incentive instead of having free travel after a certain number of journeys.  Say every weekend, no matter if you are an adult or concession, and no matter where you travel in the network, it's say a fixed $2.50 fare, no more than $5.00 for the entire weekend.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2014, 10:39:01 AM »
Happy with the zones, the zones are not really an issue (apart from some of the well known zone boundary anomalies).  They are very close to a distance based fare system.

Melbourne has real zone demarcation issues, and there is building resentment with the inequity of the two zone system there.

LNP has said clearly they will not change the zones.  Change the zones, winners and losers, they will not take that political battle on.

The base fares are the issue.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2014, 03:15:20 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

19th September 2014

SEQ: Fares are too expensive in SEQ - what a NON surprise

Greetings,

There is little doubt that the free after 9 journeys is not really working as intended.  It is too easily rorted eg. unnecessary lunch time one stoppers, bus ferry or rail early in the week to offset higher commutes later in the week.  Personally I find it very distressing observing the battlers struggling to pay fares to get to the local shopping centre on a bus, knowing that cashed up 'suits' can rort so easily.  Mums with children cannot rort in the same way, as for many others.

Introduced on the go card as free after 10 paid journeys in the week by the ALP as a knee-jerk reaction to worsening fare affordability in 2012, was easily and lazily trumped by LNP as free after 9 paid journeys. Fare unaffordability has simply worsened since, patronage fallen or at best stagnation.

The go card could be fixed and put on a sensible fare path by introducing for example a dynamic cap. Simple flat daily caps as for Melbourne, Sydney and say London will not work on SEQ because of the high zone differences, from zones 1 to 23. We are dealing with smart cards.  A daily cap of say 2 times the highest cost paid journey in a 24 hour period would stop the rorting, but still provide plenty of free trips during the day as desired but importantly return a fare box.  A weekly cap could simply be 4 times highest daily cap fares.  This would allow reduction in base fares and then means PT is more affordable for all, from the first journey in a week till the 55th for example.  It would also improve the fare box, directly in preserved fare revenue but encourage folk back on board.

Poll and discussion thread for interest --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10957.0

Best wishes
Robert

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Offline darthcaligula666

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2014, 07:34:18 AM »
this is an interesting one for me, because as many of you know, i catch a crap load of trains every day, and then often for fun as well as part of my trainspotting blog (its an incredibly fun way to procrastinate doing assessment pieces, i assure you!)

as i do 4 journeys each day, i get free trips pretty early in the week, often wednesday afternoons or thursdays at the latest. it is awesome for me, but once i graduate, i wont be catching as many trains (hence urgency to complete blog now on student go card) so it got me thinking about how i will be affected as an intern next year.

hypothetically i would be probably catching 2 a day, in and out, thus making me travel more like the rest of humanity, and then only having the one free journey on a friday avo. it is always nice to get something for free (in jewish, the free jokes are sad, but incredibly true in our family.) so i am leaning more towards a capped system, though i do have s few queries about it.

if it were capped, would it be so capped according to the zones of use? ie, if you travel in from gympie north to central each day, thats a pretty freaking expensive fare, while people who only go 1 or 2 stations clearly wont be able to compete with that. one of my friends who shall remain nameless, lives on a gold coast line station and used to say it was cheaper for her to get a fine for not touching off than it was to pay her fare. she admits to having done it more than once, but since the fine went up to over $5 she hasnt been tempted. i personally think the fine is ok, but i dont know how it can be policed when people often buy a go card and use it to touch on at say an airport station to get on the train then discard it before touching off so that the card gets the fine, but they dont care as it was only required for that sole purpose.

i was thinking that a mixed system, of whichever was reached first could be used, as it wouldnt be fair on gympie to central people to have to get 9 expensive journeys before a free one, nor would it be fair on the people who travel 1 or 2 stations to have to get to the cap before they are rewarded. perhaps a mix of whichever the card reaches first could be introduced, whether that means gympie to central only pay a few days of the week or not, that would have to be decided, and there will always be people who will be unhappy with a systemic alteration to the pricing structure. the above posts relating to perth certainly have weight to their argument, and as i will need to be paying adult fares as of next year when i begin my internship.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2014, 07:43:52 AM »
A simple way of making things cheaper for frequent users is to run it like a frequent flyer scheme.

For every $1 you spend or for every zone you cross you get a certain amount of bonus credit you can redeem when you like.

You'd pay for every trip (just have an "everyday low fare" structure) but this means people who travel more rack up free travel credit sooner.

No complex calculations, no complexity with following a weekly cycle (that favours people who travel M-F)

No ability to fort..
Doing a one zone trip on the bus at lunch is going to cost you money and result in relatively little reward points.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2014, 07:47:28 AM »
It is fair.  If you travel from Gympie North to CBD and back each day you should be paying the fare. Simple. 9 x $22.48 = $202.32

At present, they can  simply do  a one stop at morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea  ( some do ). 

So Monday spend $22.48 x 2 = $44.96 + $2.83 x 3 = $8.49 = $53.45  (5 paid journeys completed).

Tuesday $22.48 + $8.49 = $30.97 (9 paid journeys now complete).  Travel free home Tuesday and then rest of the week. $ lost to farebox = $117.90  which is 58%.

No wonder the fare box is disappearing.  Anyone can do the same and save around 58% for all zones > 1.  This is the fare box leakage .. 

Fix the high cost base fares and stop the rorting.  If we don't public transport is simply going to get a lot worse, more service cuts.  Real hardship.


If you want services there has to be a fare box coming in.

However, there would be an adjustment to the base fares so that needs to be considered.  Cheaper for all but no rorting.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2014, 08:09:19 AM »
And there is Kenny ..

Kenny just spends a couple of hours on the busway each Monday morning ..



his mates love the rort too!



Yes, the fare structure for SEQ is beyond farce!

Opal has free travel after 8 paid journeys, but they don't need it.  They have a $15 daily, $60 weekly cap and $2.50 flat fare on Sundays ..  the capping in that jurisdiction will tend to slow the rort, but it still will be rortable.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2014, 08:31:43 AM »
Part of me thinks one should be careful of what we wish for. I have a bad feeling that fare reform will simply end up as a political exercise where the fare system gets even more screwed up than it is now. Just my 2c!
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2014, 08:35:48 AM »
I intend to stand up for reform.  It is a fuking disaster at present.   
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2014, 01:17:29 PM »
Thanks RTT.  We will continue to push for better outcomes.  The real hope is next generation ticketing from 2016.

In the interim I would not be surprised to see a few more gimmicks rolled out even yet.  Most likely is off peak to 30% discount.
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Offline Stillwater

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2014, 05:42:26 PM »
In Syd on holidays recently and all the OAPs I met had grins from ear to ear -- $2.50 cap every day for them.  Off-peak, the trains were full of them going every which-way.  With Opal card, it's $2.50 cap for everyone on Sundays in Sydney.  It s an economic booster as heaps of people were out with their kids, heading to the zoo, the tourist places, even to the big parks and eat areas.  And then back to Brisbane.  Today saw one guy's jaw drop as he bought a paper ticket one-way.  Eumundi-Noosa Junction $7.20.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2014, 06:24:52 PM »
In Syd on holidays recently and all the OAPs I met had grins from ear to ear -- $2.50 cap every day for them.  Off-peak, the trains were full of them going every which-way.  With Opal card, it's $2.50 cap for everyone on Sundays in Sydney.  It s an economic booster as heaps of people were out with their kids, heading to the zoo, the tourist places, even to the big parks and eat areas.  And then back to Brisbane.  Today saw one guy's jaw drop as he bought a paper ticket one-way.  Eumundi-Noosa Junction $7.20.

 :-c

It is verging on criminal the way the fare structure is set up here in SEQ.   Is it neglect to allow blatant rorting to continue, and extract rip-off paper high cost singles from the poor punters?  One thing I am sure of, it is disgraceful and a very sad indictment on Governments past and present - so called representatives of the people.

 >:D
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2014, 09:51:37 AM »
Letter to the editor Queensland Times published 20th September 2014 page 41

Cap is needed to stop 'suits' rorting free trips

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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2014, 05:06:18 PM »
For interest - Metro Tasmania's green card has a differential daily cap based on time of first trip.

Full fare, first boarding before 9am daily cap $9.60, after 9am for first boarding then daily cap $4.80 ... concessions $4.50, $2.90  ..

http://www.metrotas.com.au/ticketsfares

« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 05:18:56 PM by ozbob »
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Do you support daily/weekly capping on go card (or equivalent) ?
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2014, 03:35:02 AM »
Sent to all outlets:

23rd September 2014

Re: SEQ: Fares are too expensive in SEQ - what a NON surprise

Greetings,

The rorting on the go card should be reason enough to fix the fare system.  Is it neglect to not stop the obvious bleeding of go card dollars?

The free after 10 paid journeys introduced by the former government, and made even more bizarre by the LNP Government in that making the threshold even easier to reach (9 paid journeys) is an anti-public transport fare structure.  It is costing fare box dollars.  A responsible government would act to fix it.  It has not made affordability better, it has in fact as shown by TransLink KPIs made it worse.

Example:

If you travel from Gympie North to CBD and back each day you should be paying the fare. Simple. 9 x $22.48 = $202.32

At present, they can  simply do  a one stop at morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea  ( some do ).

So Monday spend $22.48 x 2 = $44.96 + $2.83 x 3 = $8.49 = $53.45  (5 paid journeys completed).

Tuesday $22.48 + $8.49 = $30.97 (9 paid journeys now complete).  Travel free home Tuesday and then rest of the week. $ lost to farebox = $117.90  which is 58%.

No wonder the fare box is disappearing.  Anyone can do the same and save around 58% for all zones > 1.  This is the fare box leakage ..

Fix the high cost base fares and stop the rorting.  If we don't, public transport is simply going to get a lot worse, more service cuts.  Real hardship.

If you want services there has to be a fare box coming in.

Daily and weekly caps will allow cheaper base fares for all, but importantly preserve the fare box.  Sydney Opal does this.

See --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10957.0 for more discussion on this.

=======================

For interest:

http://www.4bc.com.au/blogs/2014-4bc-mornings-audio-blog/transport-fares-to-drop-5/20140922-3gad6.html#.VB-O7BaZjXM

4BC Mornings: Transport fares will be cut by 5%

4BC Mornings: The Newman Government announced a fare reduction of 5% for the first time in the state’s history.

The fare drop comes after $30 million in savings from axing the carbon tax and commuters should expect to see the change as of November 3.

Transport Minister Scott Emerson said a majority wanted to see a fare cut than an increase in services.

“We had 22,000 people who got back to us in our survey, 74% wanted us to use that money to cut fares intead of increase services,” he said.

“We do hope it’ll increase public transport use.”

A fare freeze will be introduced in 2015 as well.

Shadow Transport Minister Jackie Trad says she acknowledges the reduction of fares will be welcomed by the public.

“We do understand the cost of living pressures are really putting pressure on families, particularly when you consider that we’ve got record high unemployment as well.”

“We obviously acknowledge that any reduction will be felt by commuters and they will be appreciative of it.”

She said the Labor party will be making their policies “available very soon”. 

Robert Dow from Back on Track welcomed the fare reduction but said it won't be enough to get people back onto public transport.

“All cuts are welcomed, but it's not going to really cause a massive turn around in patronage," he said.

"What we want to see proper fare reform, proper community consultation. We’re due for a new ticketing system in 2016, whether it’s an update go card or an equivalent, but we think it’s a really good opportunity to look at really sound fare reform."

Mr Emerson --> here!

Ms Trad --> here!

Mr Dow --> here!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
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