Station Upgrades

[Cazza]

Would probably have to go out pretty soon to have any luck. If something is drafted up tonight and a quick review of the plans (coming out tomorrow) over the next few days, a release should probably be out by the end of the week. Reference could also be made to our first official mention of this in our CBC submission.

It's also important to remember that Ebbw Vale just recently had a PnR upgrade completed in July 2020 (https://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/projects/ebbw-vale-station-park-n-ride-upgrade) so that could be another stumbling block (or an opportunity to reuse some materials if possible). Below is the before and after.

[ozbob]

Should we put out some media suggesting we relocate Bundamba closer to the TAFE?
Can do some diagrams tonight

Not much point Gazza.  It is locked in.

Put in feedback direct via consultation.

[ozbob]

[SurfRail]

It sh%ts me to tears they aren't removing the LXs at Burpengary or Banyo.  The upgrade at Banyo probably also precludes getting rid of the crossing without demolishing the upgraded station.

[timh]

It sh%ts me to tears they aren't removing the LXs at Burpengary or Banyo.  The upgrade at Banyo probably also precludes getting rid of the crossing without demolishing the upgraded station.

Yeah that's my biggest problem. You're basically locking in that Level Crossing for the foreseeable future, which is ironically pretty shortsighted and very disappointing from the government. I also doubt that us pushing for an LX removal there through community consultation will go anywhere: it's likely outside the project scope and budget, and we've seen in the past (ie. Beams road) the shitstorm of passing the buck on funding that LX removal has in SEQ.

[ozbob]

Bundamba station accessibility upgrade

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/bundamba-station-accessibility-upgrade

[ozbob]

Banyo station accessibility upgrade

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/banyo-station-accessibility-upgrade

[Rail Rookie]

Well to name a few:

Murrarie Station (so long as Cannon Hill Station is relocated over Creek Rd)
Ebbw Vale & Bundamba Stations (so long as a new station at Byrneville is constructed)
Gaythorne Station - I understand its main purpose is to service the barracks but it's just over 700m from Enoggera 
Keperra Station - its currently too close Grovely Station and I'd imagine it would yield far better patronage if it was relocated over Annandale St at Welford St
Wynnum Station
North Boondall - this station would be much better utilised if it were placed between the current Nudgee and Boondall stations. It would still be a relatively short distance between stations; however, a car cannot cover that distance. 

Would it be worth combining Chelmer/Graceville together, possibly have a station at Graceville croquet club or something? They seem extremely close together, flood prone area, Chelmer has footy fields next to it (assuming due to flooding etc.). I also thought maybe both Corinda (move to lamb street) and Oxley (closer to Kingsgate St) could be moved 400-500m south on line, to have better distance from Sherwood.

[verbatim9]

I reckon do a 4 month closure of the line over Christmas 25/26 between Toowong and Corinda. This can allow for the relocation of Indooroopilly station, the new road under pass base works to the proposed duplication of the Walter Taylor bridge, a new station at Sherwood with a road underpass at Sherwood rd. 

[#Metro]

Are there measures that would make the rail network more flood resilient? Like rail on higher embankments/viaducts etc?

[verbatim9]

When they upgrade the Toowoomba line, they need to raise the line at Gatton, Helidon and Grantham. Maybe a low concrete bridge structure that sits above the flood plain.

[Jonno]

Morningside Station Upgrade

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/inthecommunity/projects/morningside-station-accessibility-upgrade

Missed opportunity to move platforms south and make them straight. Plenty of room still to eventually extend for 9 cars when/if needed.

Great location for affordable housing on the useless Park n Ride.

Actually if you look at many of the stations along the Clevland line there is ample space to extend/rebuild straight platforms where there is a curve today.  Just needs some forward-thinking and not a minimalist approach.

[verbatim9]

Morningside Station Upgrade

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/inthecommunity/projects/morningside-station-accessibility-upgrade

Missed opportunity to move platforms south and make them straight. Plenty of room still to eventually extend for 9 cars when/if needed.

Great location for affordable housing on the useless Park n Ride.

I believe the aim for 9 car sets are initially for the Gold and Sunshine Coast line. These trains will run through Roma St and the Gabba to cater for even crowds.

[HappyTrainGuy]

9 car will only ever operate on Redcliffe (unlikely I say. It's been designed for extensions but realistically it will possibly be dead running only or once Trouts road opens and even then it would be based on the line pairings where it would be favoured for long distance running instead of the short haul from Redcliffe), Caboolture/Beerwah/CAMCOS and Gold Coast services. Outside of that 9 car trains will not operate revenue services anywhere else on the SEQ rail network due to the complexity and sheer cost involved in enabling it (would be more than CRR from what I recall).

[SurfRail]

More to the point I can't see that it would be needed. 

In the longer run, I think we need to be looking at rollingstock with 3 doors per carriage like Melbourne for the surface lines.  We'd be talking all services except for Sunshine Coast, Caboolture, Beenleigh and Gold Coast.  Kippa-Ring would depend on whether (and which) of those services go via CRR - anything going via the surface would continue to be 6-car.

[verbatim9]

Three door metro style carriages could be good. Just concerned about effectiveness of A/C if that occurs?

The Toowoomba line should also support 9 car sets.

As the Toowoomba line is likely to be an express pattern, Indooroopilly, Darra, Redbank and Ipswich need to be rebuilt to support 9 car sets.

These stations when rebuilt can also have screens. Indooroopilly full screens with  air-conditioned platforms, Darra and Redbank half screens open station, unless Darra or Redbank become a TOD. Ipswich full screens and A/C with a new TOD above with retail, offices and a new 5 star hotel.

[HappyTrainGuy]

What is everybodies obsession with 9 car trains? Only CRR will eventually have them on Gold Coast/Sunshine Coast running. No other line will.

[verbatim9]

Yeah I realise that 9 car sets will run intercity between Hills and Sunshine coast. Toowoomba also a good candidate for 9 car intercity. It allows for some station upgrades to occur on the Ipswich line.

I think people are happy to have the increased capacity for events mainly. It will make a difference as well as for some peak services.

[verbatim9]

If the Toowoomba line runs from Roma Street there wouldn't be a need to do any upgrading there, as there is already provisions for a  9 car set.

[SurfRail]

If the Toowoomba line runs from Roma Street there wouldn't be a need to do any upgrading there, as there is already provisions for a  9 car set.

Where, pray tell?

[Gazza]

Xpt platforms?

[timh]

Yeah idk if that's what he was referring to.. the xpt platform and platform 10 are like a billion cars long. The only platforms at Roma Street otherwise that have "provision for 9 car trains" are the CRR platforms which definitely won't be getting Toowoomba services

Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

[verbatim9]

I was referring more to platform 10, but the  train could also use the XPT platform.

[MaxHeadway]

I think people are happy to have the increased capacity for events mainly. It will make a difference as well as for some peak services.

It would also allow for more feeder buses.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Now youre talking about crossing sectorisation and adding in extra timings to access P10 as all services go via the hole in the wall and multiple 25kph crossovers at Roma Street. The Ipswich line doesn't have the same overcrowding problems it once did prior to the Springfield line coming in either. And as I mentioned and has been mentioned almost everywhere you then have to upgrade the line to enable 9 car services. Now Milton has to be upgraded too for these "event" services that to access Roma street has to go via Bowen Hills vs 6 car trains going one single stop. There is still plenty of capacity available in the network and event services can easily be improved on without the need for 9 car trains. Money that can be better spent elsewhere. You are also talking about 9 car DMUs which we don't have facilities for here further adding to the expense. To be brutally honest it's pure foam.

[verbatim9]

Now youre talking about crossing sectorisation and adding in extra timings to access P10 as all services go via the hole in the wall and multiple 25kph crossovers at Roma Street. The Ipswich line doesn't have the same overcrowding problems it once did prior to the Springfield line coming in either. And as I mentioned and has been mentioned almost everywhere you then have to upgrade the line to enable 9 car services. Now Milton has to be upgraded too for these "event" services that to access Roma street has to go via Bowen Hills vs 6 car trains going one single stop. There is still plenty of capacity available in the network and event services can easily be improved on without the need for 9 car trains. Money that can be better spent elsewhere. You are also talking about 9 car DMUs which we don't have facilities for here further adding to the expense. To be brutally honest it's pure foam.

I have never implied  DMUs. Always suggested electric to Toowoomba, using existing stock

[Gazza]

How do you access P10?
It curves the other way towards the ekka loop.
There are no track connections to the Ipswich line, and even if you could, the track connection would be halfway up on the platform so he wouldn't have a 9 car length to use.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aeb5u2FFhvLm4KAb8

[HappyTrainGuy]

Now youre talking about crossing sectorisation and adding in extra timings to access P10 as all services go via the hole in the wall and multiple 25kph crossovers at Roma Street. The Ipswich line doesn't have the same overcrowding problems it once did prior to the Springfield line coming in either. And as I mentioned and has been mentioned almost everywhere you then have to upgrade the line to enable 9 car services. Now Milton has to be upgraded too for these "event" services that to access Roma street has to go via Bowen Hills vs 6 car trains going one single stop. There is still plenty of capacity available in the network and event services can easily be improved on without the need for 9 car trains. Money that can be better spent elsewhere. You are also talking about 9 car DMUs which we don't have facilities for here further adding to the expense. To be brutally honest it's pure foam.

I have never implied  DMUs. Always suggested electric to Toowoomba, using existing stock

Confirmed foam.

[HappyTrainGuy]

How do you access P10?
It curves the other way towards the ekka loop.
There are no track connections to the Ipswich line, and even if you could, the track connection would be halfway up on the platform so he wouldn't have a 9 car length to use.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aeb5u2FFhvLm4KAb8

As I said the only access to P10 from the southwest is via the hole in the wall at Bowen hills which negates the benefit of implementing 9 car trains and upgrading stations for 9 car trains to relieve peak pressure, express and event trains. Pure foam.

[verbatim9]

It's not foam. Ideas and discussion on electrification to Toowoomba and utilising 9 car sets for intercity and events is well within scope of proposed business cases.

Installing new cross over points at Roma Street is far cheaper than building and extending new platforms

[verbatim9]

Down the track Fortitude Valley station is earmarked for a revamp on the Northern end, just so there is potential there to extend a couple of platforms.

Platforms 5 and 6 could be extended at Central.


No doubt Bowen Hills will be completely redesigned and rebuilt in conjunction with a TOD.


But they need CRR open to minimise disruption while construction is taking place.

[SurfRail]

^ Citations needed.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Not sure you know the layout of Roma street bud. You are going to need about 220m for a 9 car train and that means the Toowoomba set will preoccupy the platform blocking a lot of moves and the travel trains (both tilt trains already use the platform at the same time) and that's not even considering the engineering logistics to get access to P10 from the south west. As I've said earlier any southwest service that's longer than 6 cars will need to either use P3/4 or P10 via the hole in the wall which in itself has its own problems with 3x 25kph or slower crossovers and multiple flat junction conflicts and wrong way running at Bowen Hills.

Central can't have additional platform extensions to P5/6 as you need about another 60m of platform length which isn't available. North can't be extended as it's a loading and emergency access point. Brunswick street is similar.

You mention events. What events? Suncorp?? You could extend the platform but you run into service comparability issues with stopping patterns as those trains stopping at a handful of stations. You then mess up the what makes it an express train if you only skip a couple of stations.

Also electrification. This isn't cheap. And don't expect freight operators to help cover the costs by increasing access fees. That would only force more freight back onto roads which is exactly what we've seen on the western line already with container freight not being ran in over a decade on the western system.

[Gazza]

Here's the issue. See the diagram below.
For trains coming from the west, to access P10 the additional crossovers needed would only come in halfway along the platform, so you're not really avoiding any extra cost because you'd need to extend at the eastern end to fit a 220m platform for a 9 car train.

[SurfRail]

Why would you need 9 cars to Toowoomba anyway?  6 car trains serve fine for existing Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast services which even prior to Covid were not experiencing overloading.  Those markets are lot busier than Toowoomba given they are physically closer and there is more in-between them and Brisbane.  9-car trains would be to provide additional capacity to meet future demand at levels that Toowoomba is unlikely to ever see.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Also if you look at Gaza's photo you'll see that you also have the crossover where trains are held before performing peak runs or after terminating and waiting until it's clear. Not a simple cost to implement. You would also have a very slow entry speed using the crossover so the rollingstock doesn't strike the platform.

[verbatim9]

Also if you look at Gaza's photo you'll see that you also have the crossover where trains are held before performing peak runs or after terminating and waiting until it's clear. Not a simple cost to implement. You would also have a very slow entry speed using the crossover so the rollingstock doesn't strike the platform.

Despite your scepticism surrounding 9 car sets, QR and TMR do have access to qualified engineers to make it happen.

[JimmyP]

And yet the costs still wouldn't stack up for it to happen for a Toowoomba service! Hell of a long way to go before Toowoomba requires a 9car train. Come back when they've got a 6 minute, 6car frequency, then it might be time to look at 9car trains to Toowoomba. Highly unlikely this century to be honest.

[verbatim9]

In NSW the intercity services are not always 10 car sets. They only run them when needed but the infrastructure is there when required.

It would be short sightedness not upgrading express stops to Toowoomba for 9 car sets.

[verbatim9]

Auchenflower is taking a while but they seem to have completed the centre boarding points.