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Author Topic: Northern bus issues  (Read 3167 times)

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Northern bus issues
« on: March 24, 2014, 08:18:43 AM »
Try commuting across the northside if you don't work in the city. It's a complete shambles. Buses not running near trains. Buses going citybound instead of east and west. The car is a very effective option hence the traffic problem we have here. You just gotta feel for those living in Warner. A bus? Every 60 minutes during morning and afternoon peak hour? TO THE CAR!
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Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2014, 08:54:25 AM »
Try commuting across the northside if you don't work in the city. It's a complete shambles. Buses not running near trains. Buses going citybound instead of east and west. The car is a very effective option hence the traffic problem we have here. You just gotta feel for those living in Warner. A bus? Every 60 minutes during morning and afternoon peak hour? TO THE CAR!
unfortunately HTG...in certain areas of brisbane (warner area is on that list)....translink doesnt work on the theory of 'if we provide higher frequency then surely passengers will come
They have to base thier timetables around actual demand patterns.....if any northside  services were to ever reach say 680 peak levels...then im sure they would put on extra services.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2014, 09:22:32 AM »
Quote
Try commuting across the northside if you don't work in the city. It's a complete shambles. Buses not running near trains. Buses going citybound instead of east and west. The car is a very effective option hence the traffic problem we have here. You just gotta feel for those living in Warner. A bus? Every 60 minutes during morning and afternoon peak hour? TO THE CAR!

I want to highlight a contradiction. If people want direct services to the CBD, then the buses won't go to train stations, or will parallel them (giving no incentive to actually use them). If people want buses to go to the train station, then that does impose a network where the bus is likely to be terminated at a hub or train station. There is always a great pressure to extend PT services to far areas, but the longer a line is, the more it costs. The increased length overall in the network comes at the expense of frequency.

The Northside of Brisbane does have a good road grid layout. It therefore should not be difficult to get buses going TO train stations, but that does mean buses will have to travel East-West across the street grid to connect these stations and NOT go to the CBD.

Interesting find: BCC does not run any buses along the length proper of Flockton Street and Kitchener Rd; (There are two locations (IIRC) where buses do cross this street North-South). Another PT black hole uncovered...

There are a number of deviations from the general street grid, something that I think is the responsibility of BCC. For example, there is a road disconnection at Bilsen Rd, Virginia. This is a North-South road which has a break in it, making it difficult to have simple and logical bus routes here. Gympie Road at Carseldine (between Zillmere/Graham Rd and Beams Rd) is anti-pedestrian - there is no way you can safely cross six lanes of roaring traffic on the A1, and thus a bus cannot go along this road and be useful despite the fact that it would be the best location to put a bus line on due to speed and directness. The distance between traffic lights on this section is 1 km.

More examples: The whole suburb of Bridgeman Downs is anti-public transport design. There is some very good density, but Beckett Rd is perhaps the only place you can put a fast and direct bus line. Ideally Horn Rd would be extended East-West to complete the grid, but no chance of that now, a maze has been put in and the road layouts are disconnected so that there will NEVER be proper connectivity in this area (unless you want to demolish multiple houses).

It is all disconnected - the roads, the rail, the buses, everyone is doing their own thing and surprise surprise all the pieces don't fit. Logical placement and design makes things fit.

Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2014, 09:47:43 AM »
Try commuting across the northside if you don't work in the city. It's a complete shambles. Buses not running near trains. Buses going citybound instead of east and west. The car is a very effective option hence the traffic problem we have here. You just gotta feel for those living in Warner. A bus? Every 60 minutes during morning and afternoon peak hour? TO THE CAR!
unfortunately HTG...in certain areas of brisbane (warner area is on that list)....translink doesnt work on the theory of 'if we provide higher frequency then surely passengers will come
They have to base thier timetables around actual demand patterns.....if any northside  services were to ever reach say 680 peak levels...then im sure they would put on extra services.

That's because Warner isn't in Brisbane. Its actually part of Moreton Bay Council :)

It doesn't have to be a high frequency route. I for one don't want it to be a high frequency coverage area. 30 minute frequencies would be fine especially for peak hour. Warner, Strathpine, Bray Park, Lawnton and parts of Petrie all have hourly buses during peak hour. From first service to last service. The frequency is 60 minutes. It never changes. There is massive and I mean massive expansion going on. The train frequency has been ramped up to a train every 7 minutes during peak hour yet the supporting bus network is still running every 60 minutes. You miss the 6pm Caboolture train from the city and you would more than likely have no buses to connect to once you get off the train. And people wonder why the park and rides are full before the middle of morning peak hour with massive expansions to park and rides going on at all stations between and including Strathpine-Petrie.

With regards to the 680. They can't even put on additional 680's when the demand is overflowing. In the mornings the 680 can have very quiet loadings depending on where its running. A particular section is morning Chermside services between Strathpine and Chermside. No demand for passengers to use it compacted with the no one using Gympie Road stops due to their poor location and the 340/341 services.
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2014, 10:57:51 AM »
Quote
Gympie Road at Carseldine (between Zillmere/Graham Rd and Beams Rd) is anti-pedestrian - there is no way you can safely cross six lanes of roaring traffic on the A1, and thus a bus cannot go along this road and be useful despite the fact that it would be the best location to put a bus line on due to speed and directness. The distance between traffic lights on this section is 1 km.

It actually back starts at Chermside and not Carseldine. It's one of the reasons why Somebody and myself kept getting into arguments about it. The stopping locations are or little benefit to anyone.

Green/Blue would be the new route. Red/black are the current routes.

Quote
I want to highlight a contradiction. If people want direct services to the CBD, then the buses won't go to train stations, or will parallel them (giving no incentive to actually use them). If people want buses to go to the train station, then that does impose a network where the bus is likely to be terminated at a hub or train station. There is always a great pressure to extend PT services to far areas, but the longer a line is, the more it costs. The increased length overall in the network comes at the expense of frequency.
The translink review for the northside addressed a lot of these problems with the East-West routes utilising the HF corridors and railway stations.

5 East-West routes.


5 HF North-South routes


All 10 routes.


Throw in a few more routes and the area became a lot more connected.


It wasn't perfect but it was a heck of a lot better than what there is now.
"What housing crisis?? There are plenty of free mobile apartments rolling around on the rails every day"

Offline DayboroStation

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2014, 01:20:42 PM »
Quote
Try commuting across the northside if you don't work in the city. It's a complete shambles. Buses not running near trains. Buses going citybound instead of east and west. The car is a very effective option hence the traffic problem we have here. You just gotta feel for those living in Warner. A bus? Every 60 minutes during morning and afternoon peak hour? TO THE CAR!

I want to highlight a contradiction. If people want direct services to the CBD, then the buses won't go to train stations, or will parallel them (giving no incentive to actually use them). If people want buses to go to the train station, then that does impose a network where the bus is likely to be terminated at a hub or train station. There is always a great pressure to extend PT services to far areas, but the longer a line is, the more it costs. The increased length overall in the network comes at the expense of frequency.

The Northside of Brisbane does have a good road grid layout. It therefore should not be difficult to get buses going TO train stations, but that does mean buses will have to travel East-West across the street grid to connect these stations and NOT go to the CBD.

Interesting find: BCC does not run any buses along the length proper of Flockton Street and Kitchener Rd; (There are two locations (IIRC) where buses do cross this street North-South). Another PT black hole uncovered...

There are a number of deviations from the general street grid, something that I think is the responsibility of BCC. For example, there is a road disconnection at Bilsen Rd, Virginia. This is a North-South road which has a break in it, making it difficult to have simple and logical bus routes here. Gympie Road at Carseldine (between Zillmere/Graham Rd and Beams Rd) is anti-pedestrian - there is no way you can safely cross six lanes of roaring traffic on the A1, and thus a bus cannot go along this road and be useful despite the fact that it would be the best location to put a bus line on due to speed and directness. The distance between traffic lights on this section is 1 km.

More examples: The whole suburb of Bridgeman Downs is anti-public transport design. There is some very good density, but Beckett Rd is perhaps the only place you can put a fast and direct bus line. Ideally Horn Rd would be extended East-West to complete the grid, but no chance of that now, a maze has been put in and the road layouts are disconnected so that there will NEVER be proper connectivity in this area (unless you want to demolish multiple houses).

It is all disconnected - the roads, the rail, the buses, everyone is doing their own thing and surprise surprise all the pieces don't fit. Logical placement and design makes things fit.



Reasons why buses have not been effective in the Pine Rivers area include lack of frequency and connectivity to a train station. For example, the 669, which drops off passengers at Lawnton Station, usually has less than 5 passengers who get off at 7:30am to catch a connecting train. For the next service, which drops passengers at Lawnton at 8:30, passengers have 15 minutes to wait for the next city-bound train service. Should you wish to catch the 669 on your return journey from the city, you will need to be back at Lawnton Station by 4pm. Not hard to see why the 669 is not popular with rail commuters.
Another point regarding Translink basing their timetables on existing demand patterns: What if there is not yet an existing bus service? The Warner/Cashmere area is a good example of this and has previously been commented on. Another example of a growing area is Dayboro (though on a smaller scale than Warner/Cashmere), which  has a token bus service that runs twice a day inbound to Petrie (AM) and twice outbound (PM), and passengers (if there are any) have to pay an additional fare just to get to Petrie Station (ie bus service is not connected to Go Card).
These examples may not be typical, but it does beg the question "Who is paying for the empty buses?"
Last year's Translink "feedback" was only open to existing bus services, so it was not possible to provide feedback on potential new lines.
Another point/question: If Translink has the address of most of it's Go Card users, as well as their travel patterns, why can't they work out the most appropriate bus routes, rather than relying on "feedback" from a small number of people?

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2014, 02:15:32 PM »
Indeed. I didn't think the 669 ran that early. I always thought the first service got to Lawnton railway station around 8.30 and then to Bray Park railway station about 10 minutes later? Similar to the 336/337 services around Chermside/Aspley/Geebung running between the peaks only.

I'm not sure about Thompsons planning when it comes to drivers/rollingstock but after the changes I thought the 669 could have taken over the North of Samsonvale Road duties with the 672 then running direct to Warner Village along Samsonvale Road. The 672 could then replace the 670 through to Strathpine. Maybe even have the 669 run back to Strathpine station past the schools and new housing estates that have been built in Strathpine West.
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Offline DayboroStation

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2014, 04:37:48 PM »
Indeed. I didn't think the 669 ran that early. I always thought the first service got to Lawnton railway station around 8.30 and then to Bray Park railway station about 10 minutes later? Similar to the 336/337 services around Chermside/Aspley/Geebung running between the peaks only.

I'm not sure about Thompsons planning when it comes to drivers/rollingstock but after the changes I thought the 669 could have taken over the North of Samsonvale Road duties with the 672 then running direct to Warner Village along Samsonvale Road. The 672 could then replace the 670 through to Strathpine. Maybe even have the 669 run back to Strathpine station past the schools and new housing estates that have been built in Strathpine West.
I'll double check the number next time I see it - it normally pulls in just as the Petrie-Springfield train is departing Lawnton at 7:30am.

Offline joninbrisbane

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2014, 07:22:47 PM »
That'd be 674, it arrives Lawnton 07:28

Offline aldonius

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2014, 07:30:42 PM »
Another point/question: If Translink has the address of most of it's Go Card users, as well as their travel patterns, why can't they work out the most appropriate bus routes, rather than relying on "feedback" from a small number of people?

Firstly, that only covers one commute type per person. Not a big deal really.

Secondly, it would be computationally rather difficult...

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 07:22:02 PM »
Hello all. I recently put in a request to Translink regarding the slowness of the timetable of the 310 Route.
As expected, their response was fairly generic and seems they don't seem to care much. There is a lot of fat in all the runs, peak and offpeak, I was most annoyed at the 18 mins fat with the 5:20pm > 5:38 outbound Mon-Fri (Stop 60 to RBWH), with drivers often leaving 5 mins late and still arriving early and blocking up the RBWH. I also noted drivers leaving 3-5 mins late on weekend services which only have 9-10 mins fat. Maybe someone closer to the planning team can tell me why this is so, given the stop location is more like a rocket route than an all day one. My guess is if they removed the fat, the journey planner would show that it's faster to catch the 310 with fat trimmed from Central to Toombul than the current Central-Toombul via Shorncliffe line, thus they might have to actually add a service or two if patronage climbed. Cheers all

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2018, 03:46:08 PM »
Update:
"Our operators currently maintain one timetable across the year for most routes. The exceptions are where some services operate only during school or university terms/semesters. Therefore the timetables must be designed to be able to deliver on-time running across the year. Generally at this time of year, with many people on vacation, etc the congestion levels on the road networks are lower than the levels seen across the remainder of the year. Therefore it is likely that bus services across the network may be experiencing shorter run times during these few weeks. However with congestion levels likely to return to normal over the coming weeks this will become less of an issue.
Data shows that generally across the year route 310 outbound completes their service within a minute of the scheduled completion time and depart the first stop within a minute of the scheduled departure time. This level of variance is considered to be within the acceptable limits of an on-time running service."
in other words, I should just be happy my bus is 'on time' when we sit idle each day 5 mins past the departure time.
Then drive well below the speed limit in the Airportlink tunnel
Then have a driver change which further frustrates us, at Virginia depot (even during peak hour)
Their note of the 310 leaving generally a minute after schedule I think not! (often the live tracker shows it as 'departing' for 5 minutes when it is actually just sitting idle, and the GPS has also dropped out. I know this is small fry for you folks, but as a person who is a bit of a problem-solver, am I being pedantic here? I'd happily catch this service from a transfer point like Virginia Station or northgate if it ran from there :ttp:

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2018, 05:19:23 PM »
I have observed the route running up to a few minutes early @ toombul during pm peak outbound.
It will usually lose that on sandgate rd between toombul and deagon.
Translink have explained it well and I would believe their statement of the route finishing within a minute on average.

#another30kforSEQ2018

Into 2018 more and more bus routes will start breaching their timetable adjustments (running late as supposed to 12 months earlier when their extensions kicked in).
Before the year is out the 310 will probably return to running late   8) 8)






Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2018, 06:20:40 PM »
I'm sure from a driver point of view, the route is fine, they get a 5min smoko before leaving (5mins late) then they finish 'on time' whilst driving slowly. From a commuter perspective, I didn't complain of the bus 'being late' as they thought. I complained of a fat timetable, and leaving late on purpose to try to hide this flaw. Funny how the 335 comes from a block further back in Adelaide St, goes into the Brunswick st, has to wait at those long lights, yet they timetable it with LESS fat than the 310 which bypasses brunswick st  :dntk
I used to catch the 310 this when it went all the way via sandgate Rd before the rbwh/airport link was implemented, and Often the 5:55pm sat/sun service would arrive at Sue's corner in about 22 mins! (now its 30+ mins) Maybe some of the fat in the middle of the route is fair enough to give the driver changeover some time, but I don't believe it needs so much from the city/toombul section.  By the way, i complained about 5 separate occasions on the old timetable of the 335 Where they had a set 15 min timing point on the inbound between Sandgate Station and Taigum shops. The drivers there would ALSO leave 5 mins late to try and hide that.

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2018, 06:46:55 PM »
I think the only way forward would be to get other users of the route to also complain to TL.Translink may eventually decide to reduce the fat.You are right in worrying as extra fat in the wrong places can turn people off.....and yes there is nothing worse than a route that goes slow to chew up time..

Offline Cazza

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 08:16:14 PM »
In regards to the timetabling, it does seem strange that it takes 13 mins to get from Queen St to Brunswick St @ St Pauls Tce alone, considering it was just over a year ago where they reviewed all of the timetables (due to Queens Wharf Development).

In saying that, taking the same route at the same time, Google Maps does say it takes anywhere between 5 and 14 mins so I guess it all depends on whether you get lucky with the traffic and traffic lights. https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/-27.4667815,153.0289141/-27.4553777,153.0310728/@-27.4611129,153.0250266,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!4m4!2m2!7e2!8j1516209600!3e0

In regards to the 310 itself, there is a general consensus that the route needs to go, well the section between Toombul and the CBD anyway. The proposed route (by RBoT) can be viewed here: https://www.google.com.au/maps/d/viewer?mid=1wpo1rDYVfD9xbEQcLnZiy4RvroQ&ll=-27.35104271314559%2C153.07502924389655&z=13

By terminating it at Toombul allows for an increase in frequency (from every 60 mins to at least 30 mins) due to more available resources which is definitely well overdue on the Sandgate Rd corridor through Northgate and Boondall.


Just going onto another tangent here:

Something I have been thinking of for a while now is a new BUZ service:
Route 315 (using that number for arguments sake)- Carseldine Station to Cultural Centre via Roghan Rd, Taigum Shops, Sandgate Rd, Toombul Interchange, Clayfield, Albion and St Pauls Tce.
Map here: https://www.google.com.au/maps/d/edit?mid=152UnwlJlLzQ1LoLg9hfPS3tOJpqkqP1U&ll=-27.406308095978538%2C153.04099914999995&z=12

It will give Sandgate Rd a high frequency service all the way down from Boondall into the City. This road corridor currently has abysmal frequencies for a road with quite high density in some places and trip generators along the way. This is due to inconsistent timetabling and service patterns by Routes 310 and 306/322.

Any customers for train services to the City can change at Virginia, Toombul, Clayfield (if you're game enough), Albion and Bowen Hills in addition to Carseldine.

I can see people coming at me saying "you are duplicating the train line for most of the trip". Yes, this is partly true but there will be quite a few people hopping on and off all the way along the route. Commuters will be transferring to and from trains at multiple locations, others will chose to travel the route right into the CBD.

The reason for it to continue to the City from Toombul is to give the inner section of Sandgate Rd a frequent, consistent and reliable service. At the moment, the 306 and 322 are not user friendly with the timetabling and do have quite high patronage at certain times of the day (from Toombul into the City).

I do believe a BUZ service is a suitable option because if the 340 can be BUZ'ed, anything can be!

*There would obviously have to be a complete network re-write for this route to be implemented. Just wanted to put this thought down somewhere.

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 08:38:33 PM »
Quote
It will give Sandgate Rd a high frequency service all the way down from Boondall into the City. This road corridor currently has abysmal frequencies for a road with quite high density in some places and trip generators along the way. This is due to inconsistent timetabling and service patterns by Routes 310 and 306/322
yep sandgate rd definitely NEEDS higher frequency to entice all the retail workers that use the corridor into public transport as well as workers connecting at Virginia

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2018, 06:01:53 PM »
update regarding 310 slow driving/leaving late/idling at stops.
I caught out a few instances where the bus would leave cbd at 8:05pm, drive NORMALLY, get to the RBWH at say 8:11, then leave early (instead of 8:15)

"Our GPS records show no issues with outbound route 310 experiencing early running or late running at Royal Brisbane
 Women’s Hospital Busway. " <-- so why do 310's drive at 60km/h on the middle lane of the airport tunnel? are they just 'slow drivers' who aren't confident in driving 70-75km/h?  :-c
So to prove their point they probably picked out some random occasions where the bus left late and got there 'on time' to prove they were correct and i'm just a whinger
I still don't understand the idea the reason why 310/335/346/etc all go via rbwh then not either the valley or the busway, but to barry pde.. leaving the poor rbwh people with only a scattering of low frequency valley connections (370,375,379)
does anyone know why they added fat when they added the airport link tunnel diversion? was it around the time they added the fat to Shorncliffe trains, so that the bus wouldn't 'beat' the train to Toombul station? cheers..

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2018, 07:27:39 PM »
they've simply added on too much fat with the major timetable changes.....BT network wide.....there has been a handful of badly timetabled routes but the majority of the changes have worked and improved o.t.p for a lot of routes....that being said...patronage has declined which could have been a result of the timetable extensions...


Just looking at the 310........the route is timetabled at 55 mins outbound 7pm......yet 4pm is a whopping 10 minutes extra.
The last time I took the 310 from rbwh @ 1pm it ran ontime.....arrived 2 mins late to rbwh...didn't see any issues.....but then again its timetabled at 52 mins......
52 mins sounds like the sweet spot for offpeak? and 58 - 60mins hour for peak?

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2018, 08:50:03 PM »
The first two timing points are the most annoying in my opinion
a set 10mins minimum between stop 60 and RBWH when the only stop is at Brunswick/St Pauls, and because of this fat, the drivers go the slowest route possible instead of doing what they used to do, going via barry pde/St pauls if it looked quieter.
The set 9 mins RBWH to Toombul also annoying, you can often hear the revs in the bus get lower halfway through, as the driver slows from 70 to 60km/h.
Another peeve is the drivers drive as slow as they possibly can when nearing the depot, then take their sweet time doing a driver change, when we finally depart we are 3-4mins late (why couldnt they just drive normally, get to the depot 3 mins early and leave 'on time' ? given theres no timing point there until nudgee college stop.

I managed to annoy translink enough to get their set '15 mins' Sandgate to Taigum section lowered a few minutes on the inbound 335, but with the 310? think I've hit a roadblock  :yikes:

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2018, 11:57:15 AM »
yeah I can definitely confirm your 335 issues...last time I caught it outbound it on a sunday morning we waited at Taigum for what seemed like 10 minutes......I was however quite surprised with how many people it picked up between grange and sandgate for a sunday morning....mostly shoppers......but some going to sandgate and the beach...

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2018, 04:50:06 PM »
The second time I've complained to translink, who have each time backed up my issue with a GPS reading, only to have the depot lie and fudge the figures. Once when an outbound bus left 3-4mins early before its timing point, translink refused
to investigate once the depot said it left on time, as I "must have been late". This time same story, I have to write to Department main roads.
I'm waiting for the trifecta now, when an inbound 335 bus missed a stop the other week, 3 of us had to wait for an hour for the next one. Honestly, I thought Translink would be the ones to lie and cover up their crap network, not the depot!

Offline brissypete

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2018, 07:46:34 AM »
The second time I've complained to translink, who have each time backed up my issue with a GPS reading, only to have the depot lie and fudge the figures. Once when an outbound bus left 3-4mins early before its timing point, translink refused
to investigate once the depot said it left on time, as I "must have been late". This time same story, I have to write to Department main roads.
I'm waiting for the trifecta now, when an inbound 335 bus missed a stop the other week, 3 of us had to wait for an hour for the next one. Honestly, I thought Translink would be the ones to lie and cover up their crap network, not the depot!
Wouldnt go card history also be good proof of early running, I assume go card times would be accurate.

Maybe timing points could be programmed into the DCU with an alarm if they are early.

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Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2018, 07:14:04 PM »
Has anyone here actually been successful, or seen someone succeed in getting timetable fat trimmed? even if just 2-3mins?
It would help no doubt if drivers were actually making things worse by compensating in leaving the first stop 5 mins late quite often, so when a complaint comes through
they can cite stats that say "bus arrived on time" or "left on time" etc

I found numerous occasions where drivers arrived 5 mins early and left 2-3mins before the timing point (no doubt because they were blocking up the place from other buses)
I thought this would be pertinent enough, rather than the usual whinge of "my journey is too slow" which I thought would get ignored as petty whinging.

I quizzed a 310 driver, who was driving 40km/h the entire length of Sandgate Road one night
and he responded with "whats wrong with the timetable?"
the best suggestion he could come up with "maybe you should catch another bus"
which sounded an awful lot like the old QLD adage of "if you dont like it, leave"
When I told them I''d like to see 2-3 mins fat removed from the City-RBWH section, then 2-3 mins fat removed from RBWH-Toombul (So that drivers can actually drive above 60km/h in the 80km/h zone, I was told i can write to Department of transport (which I guess is their way of washing their hands of the issue)

Offline Cazza

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2018, 08:17:30 PM »
Reviewing timetables can be quite a lengthy process so Translink/BCC don't actually do it very often, especially trying to adjust only a handful of trips. I remember, before the Queens Wharf Bus changes in late 2016, I believe the 112 (and co.) timetable had not been changed since 2006! Fairly ridiculous stuff.

I feel your pain though with timetabling. It can be hit and miss. A few examples just from one timetable: (https://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/timetables/161212-379,380,381.pdf)

-The 3:01pm inbound 380 (Mon-Fri) is timetabled to take 2 mins to get between West Ashgrove and Ashgrove (always full of school students so it stops at every stop) yet the following 3:20pm inbound 379 (departing West Ashgrove 10 mins later) is scheduled to take 6 mins (a more reasonable time). However, because the 380 is 99/100 times late (due to extra school kids) it can take upwards of 10 mins to complete this stretch (with the help of traffic) and the 379 more often than not overtakes it.

-Catching a 379/80/81 home from the City on a Saturday? Sure. One bus for each route every hour, a 20 min frequency you may say. Wrong. The 380 departs Adelaide St Stop 42 every :24, the 381 every :55 and wait for it... the 379 on the :59. :fp: :fp: :fp: How even expect anyone to be on the bus when it runs 4 mins after a previous service? (in addition to terminating before the others). It then somehow takes this empty 379 5 mins more to reach Ashgrove than the previous 381. How does that even work?

-This is possibly my favourite one. Mon-Fri outbound, the 380/1 alternate departures from Stop 42: 381- 8:06pm, 380- 8:34pm, 9:09, 9:34, 381- 10:09. Pretty reasonable, they surely can't screw it up from here... Wrong... again. The next departure (380) is a whopping 6 mins (10:14) behind the previous 381. Why does a corridor that can't even get a consistent 20 min off-peak frequency deserve a 6 min gap at 10pm? It just blows my mind to wonder how this even occurs. The funniest thing is that after the 380 stops at it's normal terminus at Hilder Rd, it then backtracks the entire dog-leg section of the 381 anyway. Go figure.


Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2018, 08:36:03 PM »
Those are all good examples! When they did the 2015-2016 timetable adjustments, a lot of these hourly 'dual' routes seemed to go from being being half hourly apart to leaving at almost the same time! The cynic in me thinks this is so that they are wanting to kill some services/routes off so they can argue the "low patronage".
I recall one 325/335 user, who catch either service and have a half hour service along Webster Road, wondering why her service was now 5 mins apart and then nothing for 55mins!
Not to mention the 330/333/340 all leaving a minute or two apart inbound from cnr Gympie/Hamilton rd (then a 13 min gap) Thats a good way to kill any turn up and go patronage.

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2018, 08:50:03 PM »
Webster Rd was suppost to get a high frequency bus route in the sadly canned 2013 bus review.

Online James

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2018, 11:37:23 PM »
Reviewing timetables can be quite a lengthy process so Translink/BCC don't actually do it very often, especially trying to adjust only a handful of trips. I remember, before the Queens Wharf Bus changes in late 2016, I believe the 112 (and co.) timetable had not been changed since 2006! Fairly ridiculous stuff.

These issues aren't just exclusive to the 112, they exist all across Brisbane. Until the QW changes, many 4XX bus timetables hadn't been changed since a rejig since 2006, around when KGSBS opened. Further still, many routes (411, 415, 417) haven't had any additional services added on the route since 2001 - possibly 1998, when the last bus review occurred.

The same thing happens in the Western Suburbs - the 411 and the 428 leave within 3 minutes of each other (:22 and :52/:25 and :55) on weekday off-peak then there's nothing for half an hour aside from 427 and 432 expresses. Likewise on Sunday, since the recent change, the 411 and 428 run hourly, but come through within 5 minutes of each other both inbound and outbound from UQ. TransLink seems to place timetable optimisation first, and the needs of customers second. Especially in a low-frequency environment, these 'hidden' areas of high-frequency are really helpful.

I have given up for now. Brisbane people have accepted mediocrity as the norm. Small country town mentality etc. To the car!
Is it really that hard to run frequent, reliable public transport?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2018, 11:58:24 PM »
Just tell BCC that if they don't review the bus network then Translink will refuse to renew the bus contract and give it to a private company...

Far too lenient, regulator is getting walked all over. Start enforcing the rules!
Negative people... have a problem for every solution.
Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members. Not affiliated with, paid by or in conspiracy with MTR/Metro.

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2018, 05:22:47 PM »
just noted the o/b 310 pull into rbwh at 5.13pm....timetabled to leave RBWH 4.57 == 16 mins late...
Obviously heavily delayed from previous run trying to get into RBWH counter-peak where it and other routes like the 330 are getting stuck for 10mins trying to turn right into the busway..   :thsdo :thsdo

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2018, 05:38:39 PM »
Aboard the infamous Fat 310. Departed stop 60 Queen st at 5:20pm, arrived at St Pauls at 5:25, and sat there until 5:35.
Just checked the RBWH and noticed that the 346, 353 and 376 all run at a better frequency than the 310 (all run half hourly in peak) Now we're late for RBWH heh :) might even be able to go the 80km/h in the tunnel this time
BCC. Getting you home faster

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2018, 07:17:07 PM »
Bt/BCC drivers have all been saying that translink are the ones who set the timetables....which makes sense since TL have all the data. But clearly lacking the accuracy needed to go with it.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2018, 01:59:30 AM »
Drivers are not to be trusted with stuff above driving a bus (no offence Otto and others).  The next rumour or supposition I hear from a bus driver that turns out to be correct will be the first.

BCC schedules its own routes.  TransLink ticks and flicks. 

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2018, 06:14:57 PM »
I've been hammering Translink's facebook on their fat 5:20pm outbound 310 today and last week. I think they're running out of excuses as to why the drivers leave 5 mins late and still have to dwell for 3 mins at RBWH.
I guess they set a timetable for the 1-2 days a year where it might actually take 18 mins to go two stops.

Looking at other routes nearby, the 353 departing 5:10pm is given 17 mins to get to RBWH when it starts at Elizabeth/Edward, and has 9 stops, so how come the 310 is so bad?

Online STB

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2018, 08:11:11 PM »
Has anyone here actually been successful, or seen someone succeed in getting timetable fat trimmed? even if just 2-3mins?
It would help no doubt if drivers were actually making things worse by compensating in leaving the first stop 5 mins late quite often, so when a complaint comes through
they can cite stats that say "bus arrived on time" or "left on time" etc

I found numerous occasions where drivers arrived 5 mins early and left 2-3mins before the timing point (no doubt because they were blocking up the place from other buses)
I thought this would be pertinent enough, rather than the usual whinge of "my journey is too slow" which I thought would get ignored as petty whinging.

I quizzed a 310 driver, who was driving 40km/h the entire length of Sandgate Road one night
and he responded with "whats wrong with the timetable?"
the best suggestion he could come up with "maybe you should catch another bus"
which sounded an awful lot like the old QLD adage of "if you dont like it, leave"
When I told them I''d like to see 2-3 mins fat removed from the City-RBWH section, then 2-3 mins fat removed from RBWH-Toombul (So that drivers can actually drive above 60km/h in the 80km/h zone, I was told i can write to Department of transport (which I guess is their way of washing their hands of the issue)

When I was scheduling bus services about a decade ago at TL (for the outer regions, not BT), we were always generally a little bit conservative with the scheduling, bar we get complaints from the public for late running services in the form of verbal abuse (and in some cases near physical abuse), part of the reason why I left the industry.

Drivers in my experience are generally just trying to follow the timetable, even if there is fat in it, so will slow down/stop/speed up accordingly (within the speed limit).  TL should know about it though from the Go Card data, but given BCC/TfB, I wouldn't be surprised if TL has their hands tied for doing anything about it.

And assuming that they did have proper control over the BCC/TfB system, using what I know from my day (about 10 years ago now - no idea if they still operate the same way), timetables can't be changed overnight, there's a process that must be undertaken for every timetable change and that can take up to 6-12 months minimum.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2018, 08:16:59 PM by STB »

Offline Cazza

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2018, 08:30:39 PM »
I guess traffic can be hard to predict when it can vary quite substantially from week to week.

However, I am completely with you on the fact that 13 mins from Queen St to Brunswick St does seem quite excessive and can be frustrating, especially when all the other trips either side are just 7 mins.

I hate to say but no matter how many times you send in feedback, they will give you a generic response along the lines of "we will pass your feedback onto our network planning team" etc etc etc. As STB said, they don't really do any small timetable or network changes so they will keep pumping out some weak excuses.

Google Maps does say it can take up to 14 mins. https://www.google.com.au/maps/dir/-27.4667211,153.0289439/-27.4553993,153.0310604/@-27.4611834,153.0250266,16z/am=t/data=!4m5!4m4!2m2!7e2!8j1529947200!3e0
Although that is bumper to bumper traffic and I doubt it does take that long (as you have experienced on numerous occasions).

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2018, 06:48:05 AM »
375 ex Adelaide Street Stop 28 near Hutton Lane 5.15pm to Brunswick St at St Pauls Terrace, stop 5, Fortitude Valley  9 minutes with two stops in-between.

310 ex Queen Street Stop 60 5.15pm to Brunswick St at St Pauls Terrace, stop 5, Fortitude Valley  13 minutes with zero stops in-between.

definitely a stuff-up just on the fact that the 375 is far busier than the 310.
375 is carrying similar or more patronage than the 200/385 buzes and 5 times more than the 310.


Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2018, 02:46:13 PM »
Thanks for that comparison, Techblitz. The fat actually got added incrementally to the 310 as they were removing the P315. there never used to be an 18 minute stop 60 to Queen st, it was always between 10 and 13 mins (although most off peak trips the drivers do it in 6-7 mins). I started bugging Translink when the new timetable came out (2016?) saying 18 mins is ridiculous. So there has definitely been time to adjust it since then.  It's frustrating to say the least when in the Airportlink and you see your bus getting overtaken by 330s and 331s  :frs:

Offline techblitz

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2018, 10:44:43 AM »
I was going to suggest doing some screenshotting of the rbwh or st pauls terrace stop on a daily basis to show the early running via the real time tracking(which is pretty accurate)....but its rather pointless if the bus drivers are purposely leaving queen st late to chew up fat.

Its really a cant win situation....completely in translink or TFB`s hands as to whether one of them trys to do something about it.
I guess the only other thing to do would be to start gathering video evidence of the driver purposely leaving late(but for that you would need to capture the desto from outside).....and then use that as an argument somehow..
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 10:58:14 AM by techblitz »

Offline Paul B

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Re: Northern bus issues
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2018, 06:29:15 PM »
I thought about doing something like that... I was under the illusion that it was Translink who added the fat to the timetable, not Brisbane Transport... as TL would see it was not stealing Shornliffe line patronage to Toombul/Sandgate Station crowd. But when I saw drivers leaving 5 mins late, it was quite obvious the drivers were either told to do this from the depot, or saw it as their duty to hide the flaw in the timetable. TL in fact are the ones that act dumb when I call them on it, so maybe its both sides. I'm not aware of any busway-originating services that have this kind of fat added to the timetables outbound, only rockets which understandably need a few mins of fat to go from one side of the city. TL probably see me as a whinger not a problem solver... 

 

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