AirTrain Continuation

[Thomas Magor]

Good morning

I am going to meet a visiting friend at the airport today and intend to travel using the AirTrain. I am wondering if I will be able to continuate my journey back into the city if I'm able to get in and out of the airport within 1hr, thereby saving substantial cost. Has anyone done this and can confirm? My suspicions are that the normal continuation rules will somehow not apply to AirTrain :/ because of reasons.

I am already aware of the Eagle Junction trick to avoid being slugged AirTrains ridiculous fares on non-airtrain portions of the journey.

Cheers

[minbrisbane]

I'll have a look at my card's history to see what it did for me.

[minbrisbane]

I'll have a look at my card's history to see what it did for me.

Sorry, appears I'm not able to find the touch on-off.

[newbris]

...
I am already aware of the Eagle Junction trick to avoid being slugged AirTrains ridiculous fares on non-airtrain portions of the journey.

Cheers

Hi Thomas, while you're waiting for your answer can I ask what the Eagle Junction trick is ?

[Thomas Magor]

... can I ask what the Eagle Junction trick is ?

The "Eagle Junction Hack": the AirTrain Corporation does not just charge you to ride the portion of the line which they own between Eagle Junction and the airport, they in fact charge you their fare of $16.50 to ride the section of track they own between Eagle Junction and the airport, plus a premium on the normal fare from wherever your journey begins.

Example (concession fares):

11:40 AM    Auchenflower    12:07 PM    Eagle Junction    $ 1.66    
12:08 PM    Eagle Junction    12:30 PM    Dom Airport    $ 16.50   
Total: $18.16

12:49 PM    Dom Airport    01:51 PM    Auchenflower    $ 19.58
Total: $19.58

Notice in my section journey they have charged me $3.08 to travel between Eagle Junction and Auchenflower. That is a 85% premium! It's not a huge amount, but the fact that they can get away with this is a travesty in my opinion.

To avoid this, you must touch-off at Eagle Junction, and then touch-on again before boarding the AirTrain. This in effect creates a continuation in your journey, and then you are fairly charged a premium for the portion of your journey that actually occurs on the AirTrain line ($16.50). This is perfectly legal and is in no way rorting the system.

Also note that I've answered my original question: I re-boarded within 19minutes at the airport and did not continuate on my return journey

[ozbob]

Whoa, it is back?  The Eagle rock!!

See --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1304.msg70386#msg70386

[ozbob]

Thomas, can you please confirm the date of your travels.  Thanks.

[ozbob]

On the 14th January I went out to BNE domestic (Seniors go card)

14 Jan 2014
10:10 AM    Goodna    11:35 AM    Dom Airport    $ 19.02    
01:07 PM    Dom Airport    02:35 PM    Goodna    $ 19.02    

$2.52 (5 zone off peak) + $16.50 =$19.02.  On that day correct fare ..

[ozbob]

9 and free doesn't work with airtrain does it

Sent from my C6603 using Tapatalk

No, and the Seniors two paid daily journey cap doesn't either.

[James]

rtt_rules, is there the ability to simply walk out of the station without touching off? Of course this wouldn't work in the City-bound direction, but in the Airport-bound direction, if it is possible, it is better just to walk out via the paper ticket "gate" and get charged the fixed fare.

You could also theoretically say goodbye to family on the train, then due to timetabling, board the Citybound train immediately after (this would work in peak hour only).

[minbrisbane]

There's usually someone at the gate, monitoring.  It wouldn't be possible.

[Thomas Magor]

Thomas, can you please confirm the date of your travels.  Thanks.

February 06, 2014

same day as my post
cheers

[Thomas Magor]

Whoa, it is back?  The Eagle rock!!

See --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1304.msg70386#msg70386

Bob, back then in 2011, you reported that AirTrain had fixed the fare anomaly... alas I was definitely charged what I call the "scam" amount on Feb 6. Although it is odd that you weren't "scammed" on Jan 14. Maybe they have your card flagged "do not scam" heh, GoCard conspiracy!

Everybody else: check your AirTrain charges! ... this is very disconcerting. If this is still happening regularly, it would amount to potentially thousands of unfair fares on each run.

I am yet to hear back from TransLink regarding a fare adjustment request I lodged on Feb 6.

[ozbob]

Thanks Thomas.  So it would seem that the programming may have gone back to the old issue sometime between 14 January 2014 and 6 February 2014.  There may have been some sort of software upgrade or patch and perhaps the old problem resurfaced. 

Be interested to know if and when you receive your adjustment.  I will raise the issue with TransLink direct again as well.

[Thomas Magor]

Note: On the AirTrain website they even state that they will charge you the unfair fare! They have three "ticket types":

(1) Brisbane City
(2) Brisbane Suburbs
(3) Gold Coast

When using their "fare calculator" it shows the erroneous price of $19.10 conc. / $21.70 adult to travel from a Zone 2 "Brisbane Suburb"  vs $16.50 from a "Brisbane City". How can they be allowed to get away with this? In my mind, this seems entirely unlawful.

See: http://www.airtrain.com.au/fares_page.php

[ozbob]

Airtrain fare is $16.50.

Go card fare zone 2 is 4.14 peak (off peak 3.32) , then fare cost should be 16.50 + 4.14 = $20.64 peak ($19.82 off peak)

Paper single ticket zone 2 is $6.10 = $22.60

Go card concession fare zone 2 is $2.07 peak(off peak 1.66), then fare cost should be 16.50 + 2.07 = $18.57 peak (off peak $18.16).

Concession paper single ticket zone 2 is $3.10  (another rip off round up by the way ..)  = $19.60

The system on https://www.airtrain.com.au/suburbantransfer.php is their own set up.

Airtrain fares $19.10 conc. / $21.70 adult to travel from a Zone 2 "Brisbane Suburb"

Agree that is rather unscrupulous to be ripping folks off.  I guess they would say they have administrative overheads ...  and as a paper system is cheaper than paper single equivalent.  Sneaky ...

[ozbob]

However, not using ' their ticketing ' but the go card should always charge the correct fares.  The fact that it didn't for you on 6th Feb 2014 is cause for concern.  Have TransLink adjusted your fare yet?

[Thomas Magor]

An update: I just called TransLink and their customer service representative agreed that I had been unfairly overcharged and refunded the discrepancy. She said she'll raise the issue with the folks higher up. I wonder what her reaction will be when they tell her they have an unscrupulous operation running and to stop asking questions!

To re-cap, I did the Eagle Rock on the way out and was charged $1.66+$16.50. I didn't do the Eagle Rock on the way back and was charged $19.58. I was refunded $1.42

To add even more confusion to the mix, the air-train site has the paper ticket fare at $19.10 (not $19.58), and the TransLink journey planner has the GoCard fare at $19.33. Why so many different prices?!

I got my money back... but just think of the millions of journeys* that occur on the AirTrain every year and the amount of money being slyly pick pocketed!

* - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_railway_line,_Brisbane#Patronage

[ozbob]

I feel a media alert coming on ...   

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th February 2014

Check go history regularly, particularly Airtrain journeys - the Eagle Rock is back!

Greetings,

For  a number of years we highlighted a fare anomaly using the go card and the Airtrain.  Overcharging was a constant.

Background see -->  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1304.msg70386#msg70386

One of our members has reported that the fare anomaly has resurfaced.  See --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10532.msg139234#msg139234

We call on the Minister for Transport to alert go card ' customers ' of the Airtrain to check their go card histories and seek adjustments where they have been overcharged.

We call on TransLink to take steps to sort this out.  Fares are expensive enough without more blatant rip-offs.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Example:  (from http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10532.msg138814#msg138814 )

Example concession fares:

11:40 AM    Auchenflower    12:07 PM    Eagle Junction    $ 1.66   
12:08 PM    Eagle Junction    12:30 PM    Dom Airport    $ 16.50   
Total: $18.16

12:49 PM    Dom Airport    01:51 PM    Auchenflower    $ 19.58
Total: $19.58

Correct fare is $18.16.  This user has now been refunded $1.42

[ozbob]

... To re-cap, I did the Eagle Rock on the way out and was charged $1.66+$16.50. I didn't do the Eagle Rock on the way back and was charged $19.58. I was refunded $1.42

To add even more confusion to the mix, the air-train site has the paper ticket fare at $19.10 (not $19.58), and the TransLink journey planner has the GoCard fare at $19.33. Why so many different prices?!

I got my money back... but just think of the millions of journeys* that occur on the AirTrain every year and the amount of money being slyly pick pocketed! ...

Summing up fare policy in SEQ ...

[ozbob]

Meanwhile ...

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

18th February 2014

Check go history regularly, particularly Airtrain journeys - the Eagle Rock is back!

Greetings,

The free after nine on the go card is starting to the hurt.  A responsible transport authority would fix the fare fail.  Not in Queensland hey?  Content to allow punters to get shafted, we now have massive increases in go rorting.

We now have reports of some bus drivers attempting to act as ' fare fail police '.     Interesting discussion thread here -- >

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10554.0

Public transport users are allowed to use public transport aren't they?

What an almighty mess has now been created in SEQ.

Have a great day.  As TransLink suggest " The more you use your go card in a week the more you will save. "

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

17th February 2014

Check go history regularly, particularly Airtrain journeys - the Eagle Rock is back!

Greetings,

For  a number of years we highlighted a fare anomaly using the go card and the Airtrain.  Overcharging was a constant.

Background see -->  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1304.msg70386#msg70386

One of our members has reported that the fare anomaly has resurfaced.  See --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10532.msg139234#msg139234

We call on the Minister for Transport to alert go card ' customers ' of the Airtrain to check their go card histories and seek adjustments where they have been overcharged.

We call on TransLink to take steps to sort this out.  Fares are expensive enough without more blatant rip-offs.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Example:  (from http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10532.msg138814#msg138814 )

Example concession fares:

11:40 AM    Auchenflower    12:07 PM    Eagle Junction    $ 1.66   
12:08 PM    Eagle Junction    12:30 PM    Dom Airport    $ 16.50   
Total: $18.16

12:49 PM    Dom Airport    01:51 PM    Auchenflower    $ 19.58
Total: $19.58

Correct fare is $18.16.  This user has now been refunded $1.42

[ozbob]

Thomas et al.  TransLink have advised that they are investigating your fare discrepancy.  At this stage they do not think it is a systemic issue however all steps are being taken to ensure it is not widespread.  It may have been a random event.

Another reason though why we have always encouraged all go card users to regularly check their histories. Errors do occur.

[ozbob]

OK,  now to summarise.

Travelling by Airtrain, there are in effect 4 basic different fares, depending ...

1. go card fare.  This is the cheapest, fare should always be the go card fare (peak or off peak) for zones you travel to CBD + current air train fare (presently $16.50).  An alternate is to buy a return Airtrain ticket on line (presently $31).  This means touching off somewhere around the CBD or perhaps Eagle Junction though, reverse inbound from BNE.

2. Single paper ticket + Airtrain paper tickets - most expensive.

3. Airtrain's own 'integrated ticketing'.  This is about midway between the cost of options 1 and 2 above.  See --> http://www.airtrain.com.au/fares_page.php

4. SEEQ - card     3 consecutive days $79, 5 consecutive days $129 - includes two Airtrain journeys.
http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/seeq-card

================

Are we glad we live in Queensland?  YES BOB!!  We love it ...

[ozbob]

Twitter

Airtrain ‏@BrisAirtrain

New E-Ticket available for Brisbane City stations... http://t.co/zj8GBoazOV

[#Metro]

How Embarrasing! Even more reason to kick paper tickets out!!

[Thomas Magor]

Imagine if this happened with private tolled roads. The equivalent would be a toll road operator being able to charge you a different price to cross their bridge, depending on how far away you travelled on public roads to access said bridge! That would be considered unlawful... right?

Similarly, the amount you're charged to ride on the private 8.5km train line owned by AirTrain beyond Eagle Junction depends on where your journey using public train lines begins. The only thing I can think of that might make some sense is if AirTrain are paying some of the cost to add additional trains on the Gold Coast line (which eventually run to the airport), then they may be entitled to pass some of that cost onto individuals who travel further afield... maybe?

[#Metro]

How can you charge for a service which you did not supply?
AirTrain had better stop this practice ASAP because I can already see the No-Win No-Fee Class Action lawyers circling...

[longboi]

Imagine if this happened with private tolled roads. The equivalent would be a toll road operator being able to charge you a different price to cross their bridge, depending on how far away you travelled on public roads to access said bridge! That would be considered unlawful... right?

Similarly, the amount you're charged to ride on the private 8.5km train line owned by AirTrain beyond Eagle Junction depends on where your journey using public train lines begins. The only thing I can think of that might make some sense is if AirTrain are paying some of the cost to add additional trains on the Gold Coast line (which eventually run to the airport), then they may be entitled to pass some of that cost onto individuals who travel further afield... maybe?

Thomas, you have hit the nail on the head.

[minbrisbane]

In other news. 

Last week I travelled to the airport via 590 and the BAC's TBus. 

Two great things:

1.  590 is wholly in zone 3. 
2.  TBus is free and runs every 20 minutes.

[Thomas Magor]

A little update and semi-PSA:

Yesterday, I went out to the airport to pick up a friend using the AirTrain. I touched-. This time, instead of touching-off at the Airport station (or even doing the eagle rock), I instead arranged with my friend to meet me on the train platform. We then jumped on the next train heading into town and returned to the station I departed from. As I set out on this journey, I was not sure how I would be charged. The options I considered were the following:

A) Be charged $0 as I touched-off at the same location that I touched-on (akin to cancelling the fare)

B) Be charged a $5 fine because I touched-off at the same location that I touched-on at 1.5hrs prior (akin to failing to continuate elsewhere in my trip)

C) Be charged $1.42 (single trip within 1 zone) because I touched-off in the same zone that I touched-on in (akin to a 1 zone journey, albeit 1.5hrs long and to the same place I started from).


... yup, you guessed it, I was charged B), the fine of $5. This aint bad for a return trip to the airport to pick up a friend. Had I touched-off at the airport I would have been slugged close to $40 for the round trip!

My next experiment will be to touch-off/touch-on at Roma St (the Roma Rock?) when I make my transfer to the Airport Line. Breaking up the journey this way will make my start and end points non-identical, and hopefully give me a better chance of being charged a single zone1-2 fare. Giving the system the benefit of the doubt, it may in fact be smart enough to know that a journey in Zone1-2 shouldn't take 1.5hrs, and I'll be charged the fine again.

...but that's OK, I'm quite fine with the fine in this case!

This is playing the system in some way, and in essence I'm receiving the same service as full fare paying passengers. That said, I can't be forced to touch off somewhere if I don't want to. Further, if I were approached by inspectors in any station, they would find that I'm travelling on a valid ticket. What do you lot think? Is this immoral? or even illegal?

[ozbob]

Yes, if you touch off at the same location after the cancellation period (20 minutes) you will be charged a fixed fare.
http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/tickets-and-fares/go-card/130801-user-guide.pdf  page 9

As far as travelling to BNE and not leaving the station and going back ...  page 8

Your guide to touch on and
touch off on trains
Card readers are located on station platforms
and major stations have card readers attached
to fare gates.
• At fare gates touch on as you enter the station
or platform to begin your journey and touch off
as you exit the station or platform at the end of
your journey, even when the gates are open.
• At card readers touch on as you enter the
station or platform to begin your journey and
touch off as you exit the station or platform
at the end of your journey.
• If you are transferring between Queensland
Rail train services only, touch on at the
beginning of your journey and touch off
at the end of your journey.

You are not leaving the station, but you are technically transferring between services, the outbound and the inbound, but they are not Queensland Rail at BNE they are Airtrain services.

On the airtrain website I could not find anything to cover this.

I am certain that Airtrain will probably update to say that you must touch off on arrival etc. eventually.

It is a grey area, Airtrain would view it as fare evasion I would expect.  But until they spell it out, doubt that it is enforceable at this time.

[aldonius]

Well, if you were to have your go card checked on the way back it would still have you as coming from your original station - in clear violation of something, even if it is only the rules as intended.

[James]

Well, if you were to have your go card checked on the way back it would still have you as coming from your original station - in clear violation of something, even if it is only the rules as intended.

I don't think it actually violates anything - you can just say you caught the wrong train and didn't realise it (for example). If you have never left a station, you theoretically never had the opportunity to touch off, hence why you could probably get away with that.

And they only know if that is your final destination if you actually get off at that station - otherwise you could be headed elsewhere, point moot.

[Thomas Magor]

Yes, if you touch off at the same location after the cancellation period (20 minutes) you will be charged a fixed fare.

Bob, so based on this information, next time I do a run out to BNE to pick up a friend, I will try touching off at a different location to my original station on my return run. I live pretty much equidistant from both the Auchenflower and Toowong train stations, so this would not be much of an inconvenience. This is not all that different to doing the eagle rock, is it? In fact, doing the eagle rock would "legitimise" my journey . I could in fact transfer to the Ipswich/Springfield line at Eagle Junction, touching off/on as I do. I would prefer to pay a legitimate fare than have a bunch of fixed fare "fines" on my account as I often call up TransLink to have incorrect charges on my GoCard refunded, so there is an incentive to keep my record clean. That said, the incentive to save money is obviously much stronger, so I'll always opt for the $5 fine over the $40 fare if there is no other way.

Well, if you were to have your go card checked on the way back it would still have you as coming from your original station - in clear violation of something, even if it is only the rules as intended.

I agree with James, there are plenty of journey scenarios which I can think of which would have me travelling in the "wrong" direction which are perfectly legitimate. Picking up a friend from the airport I think is a good example... why must I walk all the way into the terminal to meet my friend? It is surely a more efficient use of my time/energy to meet them on the platform (although the fact that this saves me $35 is also another good reason to do this  ). Likewise, let's say my partner forgot her bag on the way to work in the city and I arrange to meet her on the concourse of Roma St to hand off her bag and then continue on my way to wherever I'm going, which might be back in the direction I came from. Aldonius is right that this isn't using the service as intended, but I certainly don't think this constitutes a violation of the rules. I would be very surprised if a ticket inspector tried to pull me up on something for doing this.

[dancingmongoose]

B) Be charged a $5 fine because I touched-off at the same location that I touched-on at 1.5hrs prior (akin to failing to continuate elsewhere in my trip)

... yup, you guessed it, I was charged B), the fine of $5. This aint bad for a return trip to the airport to pick up a friend. Had I touched-off at the airport I would have been slugged close to $40 for the round trip!

You are charged a fixed fare of $5 dollars if you touch off at the same station you touched off and more than 20 minutes has passed. Got fined $5 last year when there was a south Brisbane points failure, and having been told the delay shouldn't be long, we waited on the platform for well over half an hour. After calling translink to get refunded they explained that the reasoning is that 20 minutes is long enough to make a short trip, and by not touching off you have committed "fare evasion" hence are charged a fixed fare. Of course in your case 90 minutes is significantly longer than 20.

[Thomas Magor]

Got fined $5 last year when there was a south Brisbane points failure

Did they refund you in this case? They should have been able to verify that a large number of people were stranded for >20mins after tounching-on. I understand their reasoning, as this would be an easy loop-hole to exploit, but it does mean that pretty much every time there is some kind of delay in the system, people who balk after waiting for their train for >20mins to go seek an alternative mode/route and leave the station are getting fined and most of those probably don't follow up for a refund.

I am now interested to see what happens when I next run out to the airport, touching on at Auchenflower and touching off at Toowong ~90mins later.

[dancingmongoose]

Did they refund you in this case?

Yes.

You should be charged for travelling just Auchenflower to Toowong, unless they force you to touch off elsewhere