Train stabling SEQ

[Derwan]

https://secure.publicworks.qld.gov.au/etender/tender/display/tender-details.do?id=10849&action=display-tender-details

Queensland Rail is looking to enter into a Collaborative Management Agreement (CMA) with a private sector organisation (CMA Partner) to work with Queensland Rail to jointly manage a project through the design, construct and handover three (3) of the new rolling stock stabling sites proposed to be located at Robina West, Banyo and Elimbah. The anticipated overall value of the project is approximately $80 million.

[ozbob]

Interesting, thanks.

Elimbah seems to be a good move ...

[Golliwog]

Any mention of how big each new stabling facility is proposed to be?

[Derwan]

Any mention of how big each new stabling facility is proposed to be?

Robina West Extension: 4 x 6 car sets
Banyo: 6 x 6 car sets
Elimbah: 8 x 6 car sets

[Derwan]

Here are some more details:

The SEQ Stabling Program forms part of the NGR Operational Readiness Program.

Robina West Extension
  - 4 x 6 cars based on existing design
  - Expansion of crew amenities and car park for additional staff
  - Decanting to all roads
  - Future capacity – nil.

Banyo
  - Western Stabling Yard – 6 x 6 cars double ended
  - Crew change facility and car park
  - Decanting to all roads.

Elimbah
  - 8 x 6 cars
  - Crew change facility and car park
  - Decanting to all roads
  - 1 x 6 car maintenance road for on track maintenance vehicles
  - Future capacity – 17 x 9 cars.

Timing:
  - Contract award: Aug 2014
  - Commence construction: Nov 2014
  - 1st site complete: Nov 2015
  - 2nd site complete: Mar 2016
  - 3rd site complete: Aug 2016

[Golliwog]

Interesting to see the possible future capacity at Elimbah is for stabling 17 x 9 car sets. From a quick look at the NGR announcment the other day, weren't the new units going to be fixed 6 car units? Or is this perhaps just coupling 3 of the current IMU/SMUs together?

Hopefully this means the 9 car sets is still the plan for the future not going for some 7 car hybrid

[Derwan]

Interesting to see the possible future capacity at Elimbah is for stabling 17 x 9 car sets.

Yes I thought that was interesting too.  It could be as innocent as - that's how long the track can be there so they'd just split the multiple 6-car sets into 9-cars for stabling... but if they ARE going to run 9-car sets, it means that the Nambour (or maybe Sunshine Coast) line has been earmarked for the 9-car sets.

There is no such provision for Robina though.

[HappyTrainGuy]

9 car sets are going to be running in the future. Just not soon. IIRC 9 car sets are supposed to be and are reserved for the NWTC project. Just future planning stabling for up and coming infrastructure/new corridors. More than likely once Elimbah has its stabling yard constructed Caboolture will then have its stabling removed in stages for its planned upgrades and extensions related to the NWTC project/additional capacity. Elimbah would then be home to CAMCOS rollingstock.

[SurfRail]

3 car IMUs aren't going anywhere for decades yet either. 3 x 3 or 6 + 3.

[#Metro]

3 Car Units should be BANNED from service. Especially during peak hour when they do not have enough capacity.
I don't recall catching half a train in Melbourne or Sydney.

[SurfRail]

3 Car Units should be BANNED from service. Especially during peak hour when they do not have enough capacity.
I don't recall catching half a train in Melbourne or Sydney.

You haven't caught many trains in those cities then, let alone Perth or Adelaide!

[HappyTrainGuy]

3 car sets still have their place but you just have to utilize them at key times and locations.

[STB]

I've seen 3 car sets used in Melbourne during peak hour in the past.  The Alamein and Williamstown lines comes to mind.

[Stillwater]

Elimbah stabling an interesting move because it does not exclude the siting of a new railway station at Caboolture North (opposite the showgrounds).

[BrizCommuter]

3 Car Units should be BANNED from service. Especially during peak hour when they do not have enough capacity.
I don't recall catching half a train in Melbourne or Sydney.

They are a fact of necessity at the moment due to lack of trains.

Also, plenty of other cities have "half trains" in the peaks.

[#Metro]

They are a fact of necessity at the moment due to lack of trains.

True. Hence we need to buy more. A lot more.

Also, plenty of other cities have "half trains" in the peaks.

Plenty of cities speak french, drive on the right or have the death penalty. Should we introduce that to Brisbane too?

Having half trains during peak is an inconvenience if the train is bursting with pax and you can't fit on. There may be a case for 3CUs on smaller lines such as Doomben Only or Airport Only or Rosewood shuttle. I am more than happy to make an exception for those lines. But not on others.

I agree they are a necessity that is convenient for the administrators of the PT system, but they are not convenient for the passenger, and that's important. This practice is an old and long entrenched practice and should be phased out with the progressive modernisation of the system. QR is slowly changing; getting rid of random multiple express patterns from the system is another ancient entrenched practice that I am glad they are getting rid of.

[STB]

Also, plenty of other cities have "half trains" in the peaks.

Plenty of cities speak french, drive on the right or have the death penalty. Should we introduce that to Brisbane too?

Having half trains during peak is an inconvenience if the train is bursting with pax and you can't fit on. There may be a case for 3CUs on smaller lines such as Doomben Only or Airport Only or Rosewood shuttle. I am more than happy to make an exception for those lines. But not on others.

I agree they are a necessity that is convenient for the administrators of the PT system, but they are not convenient for the passenger, and that's important. This practice is an old and long entrenched practice and should be phased out with the progressive modernisation of the system. QR is slowly changing; getting rid of random multiple express patterns from the system is another ancient entrenched practice that I am glad they are getting rid of.

Lapdog, don't you dare try and compare things like the death penalty to 3 car trains in peak.  The amount of ignorance in your post was astounding, showing you have very little understanding of fleet utilization and allocation.

The 6:51am ex Ipswich which from memory is a 3 car unit works, as the previous train departs 6mins earlier, so that 3 car train acts as a sweeper service for the one before it, as one example of how 3 car trains work in peak hour.

And frankly, we've got 3 car sets operating simply due to a lack of rollingstock, so you'll just have to stick with it until more trains arrive, although don't expect that 3 car trains in peak will disappear.

[Golliwog]

Seriously Lapdog, it's the same as why we don't see Tri-axle/artic buses on every route. If a 3 car unit provides adequate capacity for a service and allows you to run more services, then I'm all for it. Sure you might have some cases where you'll have standees in a 3 car service which would have all got seats if a 6 car set was run, but tough, running a 6 car unit just so people can all get a seat isn't what the network should be trying to cater for.

[#Metro]

Lapdog, don't you dare try and compare things like the death penalty to 3 car trains in peak.  The amount of ignorance in your post was astounding, showing you have very little understanding of fleet utilization and allocation.

Just illustrating the point that if other cities do it, still not a justification. I think it demonstrated the point rather well.

The 6:51am ex Ipswich which from memory is a 3 car unit works, as the previous train departs 6mins earlier, so that 3 car train acts as a sweeper service for the one before it, as one example of how 3 car trains work in peak hour.

And frankly, we've got 3 car sets operating simply due to a lack of rollingstock, so you'll just have to stick with it until more trains arrive, although don't expect that 3 car trains in peak will disappear.

True. But I expect the practice to be phased out. I'm not aware of 3CUs in Melbourne or Perth or Sydney or Adelaide. It is very easy to make excuses to preserve the status quo, it requires little effort. This is the kind of thing that needs push back on, along with another practice of adding large amounts of fat to timetables, and having too many seats on trains.

[STB]

I think by the end of the decade, there wil be minimal need for 3 car sets in Brisbane and planning to have them in these minor locations will be more trouble than they are worth. Any limited need for 3 car sets such as Rosewood Shuttle, even Doomben will be met by the existing 3 car sets for the next 30+ years. All future orders will and should be 6 cars.

Other cities have smaller trains, often DMU's for specific shuttle runs usually on branch lines to a junction station. They rarely run them into the city due to the wasted capacity, as Sydney has pregressively moved to.

When the time comes to introduce 9 car sets, I'm going to put it out there that when this does happen (and it will +2020), the trains will be new or upgrades of the latest models at the time. There will not be 3x3 car sets.

Does that make the NGR sets a little bit pointless since they are fixed 6 cars?  If we're going to have 9 car sets eventually, I would've thought it would be prudent to keep purchasing 3 car sets for the time being.

[#Metro]

I think by the end of the decade, there wil be minimal need for 3 car sets in Brisbane and planning to have them in these minor locations will be more trouble than they are worth. Any limited need for 3 car sets such as Rosewood Shuttle, even Doomben will be met by the existing 3 car sets for the next 30+ years. All future orders will and should be 6 cars.

Other cities have smaller trains, often DMU's for specific shuttle runs usually on branch lines to a junction station. They rarely run them into the city due to the wasted capacity, as Sydney has pregressively moved to.

When the time comes to introduce 9 car sets, I'm going to put it out there that when this does happen (and it will +2020), the trains will be new or upgrades of the latest models at the time. There will not be 3x3 car sets.

Absolutely. +1.

[HappyTrainGuy]

9 car sets are only going to be reserved for certain combined lines and that's well down the line in another phase of rollingstock orders.

[Gazza]

Just illustrating the point that if other cities do it, still not a justification.

But there are justifications for using 3 car sets.

[Golliwog]

Just illustrating the point that if other cities do it, still not a justification.

But there are justifications for using 3 car sets.

In fact, I don't believe any one here was saying the reason we run 3 car units is because other cities do. We run them because they provide adequate capacity (most times) for the services they are currently timetabled to run.

[#Metro]

We run them because they provide adequate capacity (most times) for the services they are currently timetabled to run.

I disagree and dispute this. And indeed with a more connected network requiring the bus network pax to be more reliant on also catching trains (requiring capacity on the rail network at all times), 3 car units must be phased out as a priority. This practice cannot be stopped overnight (granted), but the brakes must be put on it, so to speak. Appropriate stabling should also reflect this requirement and the potential requirement for longer trains (9 car sets). METRO in Melbourne has rail yards where they make long spaghettis with the trains, putting one in front of the other so you have like 5 all on the same track in the yard, stabled overnight.

What is good and convenient for planners and administrators is not necessarily so for customers.

[Old Northern Road]

Remember that if CAMCOS is built Nambour trains would probably run as shuttles and would only require 3 cars. I'm pretty sure in Connecting SEQ 2031 they had Nambour trains as 3 car IMUs and CAMCOS trains as 9 car IMUs although I guess 9 car trains won't be possible if UBAT is only designed for 7 car trains.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Remember that if CAMCOS is built Nambour trains would probably run as shuttles and would only require 3 cars. I'm pretty sure in Connecting SEQ 2031 they had Nambour trains as 3 car IMUs and CAMCOS trains as 9 car IMUs although I guess 9 car trains won't be possible if UBAT is only designed for 7 car trains.

Gympie-Landsborough will be shuttles. CAMCOS would get shuffled onto Caboolture services utilizing the long station spacing, the high speeds of the existing line, duplication and realignment of the Caboolture-Landsborough section and the NWTC.

[Arnz]

I would guess the sole Gympie North peak service will be the only "through" service past Beerwah post CAMCOS.   Possibly even express to Beerwah via NWTC stopping only at Strathpine and Caboolture, using only a 3-car IMU (assuming the ICEs dedicated to the Gympie services are phased out)

All Nambour and current (and any future) Gympie North off-peak trains will terminate at Beerwah as shuttles (connecting to CAMCOS).    Hourly Nambour-Beerwah during off-peak/weekends and half-hourly during peak periods using only 3-car sets.

[Golliwog]

We run them because they provide adequate capacity (most times) for the services they are currently timetabled to run.

I disagree and dispute this. And indeed with a more connected network requiring the bus network pax to be more reliant on also catching trains (requiring capacity on the rail network at all times), 3 car units must be phased out as a priority. This practice cannot be stopped overnight (granted), but the brakes must be put on it, so to speak. Appropriate stabling should also reflect this requirement and the potential requirement for longer trains (9 car sets). METRO in Melbourne has rail yards where they make long spaghettis with the trains, putting one in front of the other so you have like 5 all on the same track in the yard, stabled overnight.

What is good and convenient for planners and administrators is not necessarily so for customers.

As I said, for the services they are currently timetabled to run 3 car units are fine. If you're going to make changes to the network with respect to the number and quality of rail feeder services, then of course you're most likely going to need to run higher capacity/more services.

On the fixed 3 vs 6 vs 9 car units front, it's not enough to argue for one vs the other but the current setup allows (if required) for a 6 car unit to break down into two 3 car units so run 2 services (say if another unit fails somewhere) so you still lose capacity, but you still at least have something turn up when the timetable says something will.

[HappyTrainGuy]

As I've said previously in other threads the only reason that 3 car trains were even made with the last order was due to the mtce facilities.

[Fares_Fair]

Remember that if CAMCOS is built Nambour trains would probably run as shuttles and would only require 3 cars. I'm pretty sure in Connecting SEQ 2031 they had Nambour trains as 3 car IMUs and CAMCOS trains as 9 car IMUs although I guess 9 car trains won't be possible if UBAT is only designed for 7 car trains.

Seriously, I doubt CAMCOS (as in a heavy rail line through to Maroochydore) will ever be built.
It will most likely become a light rail system as on the Gold Coast with a feeder bus route to the heavy rail at Beerwah.

[Arnz]

My personal preference tbh is heavy rail to Caloundra, then LR from Caloundra to Maroochydore.   Caloundra has a heavier walk-up catchment for a heavy rail terminus along with the potential bus (and Light Rail) feeders as far as Maroochydore.

An LR from Caloundra to Maroochydore would be a very handy second frequent spine complimenting the existing High Frequency Route 600 bus (currently operating every 12 mins Weekdays and every 15 mins on the Weekends, with Late Evening NightLink buses operating hourly from 10pm till 2am on Friday and Saturday nights).

[petey3801]

I'm not aware of 3CUs in Melbourne or Perth or Sydney or Adelaide.

You obviously haven't been to Perth in a while... Melbourne or Adelaide I can't comment on.. Sydney are mostly 8-car sets, with some 4-car trains still running around, even in peak.

The simple fact of the matter is we won't be getting any new trains for at least another 2 years, so we have to make do with what we have. If we want more services in peak, some will have to end up being 3-cars.

Once the NGR order is complete (75 sets at least), rollingstock availability will be much higher, leading to the ability to get rid of 3-car trains in peak for most lines. But that's not for another few years yet.
And before you say it, we won't have an additional 75 6-car trains to play with once the NGR order is finished. They will be used to retire the EMUs and, quite likely the SMU200s and possibly IMU100s. This does, however, still leave an additional 20 6-car trains for fleet expansion, plus there are options for more trains to be ordered in the NGR contract also.

[Stillwater]

I'll split the difference FF and Arnz and say heavy rail to Kawana, light rail from there.  That hospital/educational precinct is huge.  Agree with FF that Maroochydore unlikely to get heavy rail now.

[James]

We run them because they provide adequate capacity (most times) for the services they are currently timetabled to run.

I disagree and dispute this. And indeed with a more connected network requiring the bus network pax to be more reliant on also catching trains (requiring capacity on the rail network at all times), 3 car units must be phased out as a priority. This practice cannot be stopped overnight (granted), but the brakes must be put on it, so to speak. Appropriate stabling should also reflect this requirement and the potential requirement for longer trains (9 car sets). METRO in Melbourne has rail yards where they make long spaghettis with the trains, putting one in front of the other so you have like 5 all on the same track in the yard, stabled overnight.

What is good and convenient for planners and administrators is not necessarily so for customers.

The issue is that at this point, rail is run like an over-glorified infrequent bus service in metropolitan Brisbane, and as such, attracts patronage like a bus service operated in that fashion. As such, 3-car trains would suit most of the network off-peak at this point. However, the moment we start running buses to trains (i.e. stop running a bus from Sandgate station to Bowen Hills station ), we will need 6-car units.

I don't think 3-car trains should be rubbished by any means, though. Ideally they should not be running around in peak, but with the rolling stock we have, it is better to run a service, than not run one, and 3-cars could be put on to services where the services are bunched closely together (e.g. the 7.5 minute Beenleigh line gaps).

I'll split the difference FF and Arnz and say heavy rail to Kawana, light rail from there.  That hospital/educational precinct is huge.  Agree with FF that Maroochydore unlikely to get heavy rail now.

I will say it now - better off just upgrading/realigning the line to Nambour (this is freight rail, Federal Government might actually fund this), making the heavy rail alignment LRT and having either 'fast bus' lanes to Landsborough/Beerwah and Nambour/Woombye (choose the closest station and construct dedicated bus lanes so buses can run 80km/hr+ ideally), or link the LRT further up.

My concern with linking at Beerwah is the LRT (which if going by the GC's version, is not as fast as buses travelling non-stop) being too slow.

[SurfRail]

I'm not aware of 3CUs in Melbourne or Perth or Sydney or Adelaide.

Thanks for the admission you do not know what actually happens in other cities. 

3 car workings in peak hour are common and very normal in Perth and Melbourne - as are 2 car workings in Adelaide and 4 car workings in Sydney.  Sydney also operated large numbers of 6 car trains until recently when they were all broken down and recomposed into 4 and 8 car sets.

There are simply not enough trains and nor is there always enough demand to make 6 cars a priority for all peak runs.

For somebody who bangs on so much about operating costs I am really confounded by this argument of yours.

[Gazza]

The other benefit of 3 car sets is allowing maintenance to be done, without removing the whole set from service.

On weekends/offpeak on many lines a 3 car set is well and truly enough (For example in Perth I did a few weekend runs on trips on the Mandurah and Clarkson lines, and a 3 car set was the norm...Comfortably full, but no standees)

It would increase long term maintenance costs to be dragging around an extra 3 cars and running up kilometers/wearing parts when you don't need to.

[#Metro]

Thanks for the admission you do not know what actually happens in other cities.

Isn't honesty a wonderful thing

[#Metro]

QR as it is has a decreasing need or justificaton for 3 car sets with the main customers for 3 cars being Rosewood, NCL, Doomben shuttle etc. The current fleet of around 250-300 sets is all 3 car sets and vary in age from 1-2 years to 34 years. All future orders will be 6 car sets and there is ZERO justification to buy 3 car sets because you have enough to last you 30-40 years for those limited and hopefully decreasing areas you do need 3 car sets.

+1

I want them out, I want them gone.

Onwards!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

250-300 sets? Being a bit generous there. 87 EMUs, 78 SMUs and 42 IMUs just gets you over the 200 mark Mtce never stops. Its 24/7. Even during peak hour there are people working on them.