Split from Re: Sunshine Coast Bus Changes start November 25.

[longboi]

They will probably end up keeping their loop and of the 2132 people that signed the petition, maybe 10 will ever catch a bus.

LD, take note. This is what you have to deal with in the real world.

I'm happy to take the heat. They may or may not have a case. I'm not familiar with the area.

In general, the issue arises because we are not HONEST about the FULL costs and benefits (to EVERYONE that is). When was the last time you saw TransLink print out the annual cost of the bus routes? That's right NEVER publish it publicly. Some of these bus services cost multi-millions of dollars to put on and barely recover anything. If they are marginal routes where alternatives exists then we are wasting money. And I am against waste because I see waste as a gross inequity and inequality - people who have decent services are depriving others of decent services because they can't get off their butt and transfer. Or walk 100m. Or whatever. And then they lump the cost on everyone else to boot. That's not fair. That's not being caring. That's not helping the community. That's the exact opposite.

If they want to lobby so hard to keep their route, fine, calculate how much more it costs and then put a levy on each property within 800 m of the bus stops that people want to not change. The people whose names and addresses are on the petitions can all be phoned up and asked what their opinion is on increasing their rates to fund a transit levy contribution. I'm all for people getting their own way so long as THEY PAY for special treatment themselves and do not take money from everyone else for their own personal taxi.

The people who have something to lose are always going to make the LOUDEST NOISE because they are going to have loss aversion reactions and they are going to make other people pay. The people who benefit are not going to say anything because you can't be offended about losing something you never had.

The fallacy that I have to deal with over and over again is to only consider the people who use the service and not consider the effects on everybody. Everybody else matters too because they're paying.

* For the record, my comments are general in nature as I'm not familiar with the local area

I completely agree with you. This is what turns good ideas into watered down pieces of crap. I'm just saying be prepared for it.

If you work in Government (or anywhere really) you need to be prepared to see this happen to your best laid plans and hard work from time to time. We live in a capitalist, democratic society. Therefore monetary cost and other people are always going to get in the way.
Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. Just like sometimes you have the right answers but sometimes you may not.

[#Metro]

I completely agree with you. This is what turns good ideas into watered down pieces of cr%p. I'm just saying be prepared for it.

If you work in Government (or anywhere really) you need to be prepared to see this happen to your best laid plans and hard work from time to time. We live in a capitalist, democratic society. Therefore monetary cost and other people are always going to get in the way.
Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. Just like sometimes you have the right answers but sometimes you may not.

I agree with you completely as well! Advisers advise and politicians decide. So I can make my suggestions as radical as I wish as I'm not the one who has to do the political work at the end of the day - that's the job of politicians (and why we also pay them a fat salary to boot). I also make sure that I take a hard line because I KNOW and EXPECT that when the plans/ideas reach the pollies, they will water it down. If I have already watered down my ideas, then they are going to be watered down EVEN MORE and then you'll have something about as strong as the many hocus pocus tonic solutions one can get at a naturopath.

We need to be honest about full dollar costs. When you go shopping at a supermarket, does the store manager censor all the prices? Or categorise them into "low value for money", "medium value for money" and "high value for money"? Not at all. What a JOKE then it is that we are expected to make sound decisions when we are given unsound and vague information like this. No wonder the naysayers and people who have major reactions to "save" everything, no matter how crappola it is can have a field day.

[longboi]

I completely agree with you. This is what turns good ideas into watered down pieces of cr%p. I'm just saying be prepared for it.

If you work in Government (or anywhere really) you need to be prepared to see this happen to your best laid plans and hard work from time to time. We live in a capitalist, democratic society. Therefore monetary cost and other people are always going to get in the way.
Sometimes it's a good thing, sometimes it's not. Just like sometimes you have the right answers but sometimes you may not.

I agree with you completely as well! Advisers advise and politicians decide. So I can make my suggestions as radical as I wish as I'm not the one who has to do the political work at the end of the day - that's the job of politicians (and why we also pay them a fat salary to boot). I also make sure that I take a hard line because I KNOW and EXPECT that when the plans/ideas reach the pollies, they will water it down. If I have already watered down my ideas, then they are going to be watered down EVEN MORE and then you'll have something about as strong as the many hocus pocus tonic solutions one can get at a naturopath.

We need to be honest about full dollar costs. When you go shopping at a supermarket, does the store manager censor all the prices? Or categorise them into "low value for money", "medium value for money" and "high value for money"? Not at all. What a JOKE then it is that we are expected to make sound decisions when we are given unsound and vague information like this. No wonder the naysayers and people who have major reactions to "save" everything, no matter how crappola it is can have a field day.

It would just make things worse. Likening it to purchasing goods at a supermarket is a bit simplistic.

Does the store manager tell you how much profit they make from their goods?

A $/km cost would just confuse people. There are routes (not in SEQ) that cost $2/km and there are some that cost $20/km. Both serve important functions. Cost isn't the only determining factor for how PT should be planned.

[#Metro]

It would just make things worse. Likening it to purchasing goods at a supermarket is a bit simplistic.

Does the store manager tell you how much profit they make from their goods?

A $/km cost would just confuse people. There are routes (not in SEQ) that cost $2/km and there are some that cost $20/km. Both serve important functions. Cost isn't the only determining factor for how PT should be planned.

Do you have a better example then?

THIS is the reason why we are in such a mess. We are treating the paying public with utter contempt. We don't think they're smart enough to use the information, so we dumb it down or censor it. So why should be be surprised when they, on the basis of the scant and vague information available, come to bizarre conclusions.

You say people would be confused. What, so people weren't confused when routes like 108 Yeronga and BUZ 111 were shown to both have high cost recovery and high value for money? And so people thought they were equally valuable bus services? There are many examples within TransLink's bus review which presented  vastly different bus services as almost the same.

Release the information. Gross annual costs per route for every route. Cost recovery ratio for every route. Annual or daily passenger numbers for each bus route. You cannot have an HONEST conversation without HONEST information and you cannot expect any decision to be more sound that the soundness of the information that went into making a decision.

How on earth 2000 people can sign a petition when the bus struggles to even get a handful of passengers is beyond me.

You are right that cost isn't the only factor. But drivers do not work for free, they want to be paid. And at some point it will be too much to pay to get too little back. How can the community decide what level is too much money to pay, even for welfare/coverage services if we have an allergic reaction and deliberately withhold how much the service actually costs to supply?

Sure the storekeeper doesn't tell you how much profit he is making. Absolutely. But unlike that example, WE ARE PAYING TRANSLINK it is our transport system, we are not asking for the bus operators profit margin, we are asking for the price they are charging us for the service.

[#Metro]

There is a total lack of transparency here and where there is a lack of transparency, blame shifting can take root.
We deserve to know because we're paying.

11 Nov 2013: SEQ: Call for transparency and accuracy with public transport data
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10357.0

[techblitz]

How on earth 2000 people can sign a petition when the bus struggles to even get a handful of passengers is beyond me.

Something you will never understand or just stubbornly fail to understand LD.
People power will never go away. Have their not been enough examples pver the last 12 months for you to realise this?
I suggest you join politics if you ever want to shut them out. Whining about them on a forum wont change things. More petitions will be signed in the future as more changes are made. Some will fail...some will succeed.

[longboi]

It would just make things worse. Likening it to purchasing goods at a supermarket is a bit simplistic.

Does the store manager tell you how much profit they make from their goods?

A $/km cost would just confuse people. There are routes (not in SEQ) that cost $2/km and there are some that cost $20/km. Both serve important functions. Cost isn't the only determining factor for how PT should be planned.

Do you have a better example then?

THIS is the reason why we are in such a mess. We are treating the paying public with utter contempt. We don't think they're smart enough to use the information, so we dumb it down or censor it. So why should be be surprised when they, on the basis of the scant and vague information available, come to bizarre conclusions.

You say people would be confused. What, so people weren't confused when routes like 108 Yeronga and BUZ 111 were shown to both have high cost recovery and high value for money? And so people thought they were equally valuable bus services? There are many examples within TransLink's bus review which presented  vastly different bus services as almost the same.

Release the information. Gross annual costs per route for every route. Cost recovery ratio for every route. Annual or daily passenger numbers for each bus route. You cannot have an HONEST conversation without HONEST information and you cannot expect any decision to be more sound that the soundness of the information that went into making a decision.

How on earth 2000 people can sign a petition when the bus struggles to even get a handful of passengers is beyond me.

You are right that cost isn't the only factor. But drivers do not work for free, they want to be paid. And at some point it will be too much to pay to get too little back. How can the community decide what level is too much money to pay, even for welfare/coverage services if we have an allergic reaction and deliberately withhold how much the service actually costs to supply?

Sure the storekeeper doesn't tell you how much profit he is making. Absolutely. But unlike that example, WE ARE PAYING TRANSLINK it is our transport system, we are not asking for the bus operators profit margin, we are asking for the price they are charging us for the service.

If you believe this is so important then you should submit an RTI request.

[James]

Something you will never understand or just stubbornly fail to understand LD.
People power will never go away. Have their not been enough examples pver the last 12 months for you to realise this?
I suggest you join politics if you ever want to shut them out. Whining about them on a forum wont change things. More petitions will be signed in the future as more changes are made. Some will fail...some will succeed.

People are also inherently stupid. All you need to do is watch bad reality TV on prime time television and see how it gets millions of viewers each night. Heck, just use the transit system to see some of the idiots out there. And yes, they all use PT. I've posted the 'Save the 454' poster that was put up. There was also a similar 'Save the 417' poster put up in this area, even though the 417 was totally useless, and most pax would have benefited as the St Lucia Local likely would have run more than four times a day on a Sunday. 

Education and flexitaxis are what is needed. Maybe simply re-route the thing so it goes down the Esplanade in one direction and up the new routing in the other direction, as if they were one-way streets. Not ideal, but it stops the winging.

I also second Lapdog's calls. Specific information needs to be given on specific routes, and WHY they are being cut.

[bcasey]

Maybe simply re-route the thing so it goes down the Esplanade in one direction and up the new routing in the other direction, as if they were one-way streets. Not ideal, but it stops the winging.

That is exactly what the current loop service is doing, and is a bad idea. Either stick to the proposed plan, or compromise and go down the streets in the middle of that narrow corridor.

[James]

That is exactly what the current loop service is doing, and is a bad idea. Either stick to the proposed plan, or compromise and go down the streets in the middle of that narrow corridor.

It isn't really. What I propose is like the Esplanade and Westminster Ave are both one-way streets, with the bus going down the Esplanade inbound and Westminster outbound, with the route remaining otherwise unchanged.

This doesn't compromise service for other people, yet still allows for that access along the Esplanade. It is a little more complex route-wise, but is probably the only decent middle ground. I've looked at that middle street, and correct me if I'm wrong, but that middle street might not be wide enough? If it is (and free of traffic calming), I would send it down there.

[#Metro]

We just can't do it. The sky might fall down.
Queensland starts with the letter Q. Hence, it won't work here. It doesn't matter what overseas places do, that doesn't apply. We're different.

Toronto Transit Commission, route patronage and full costs
(They also have a customer information officer who gives away statistics without having to lodge RTI)

[longboi]

You should make it known that sort of thing exists.

[Old Northern Road]

I'd be interested to see the figures for Thompson buses. I bet many of their routes would be used by less than 10 people per day.

[#Metro]

You should make it known that sort of thing exists.

I will!

Enough of the secrecy. What are they hiding? Brisbane Transport's bus cost explosion?

[longboi]

You should make it known that sort of thing exists.

I will!

Enough of the secrecy. What are they hiding? Brisbane Transport's bus cost explosion?

It's not some secret conspiracy. My guess is that the idea just hasn't been considered. Realistically, very few people care about that stuff. Why create the extra work?

However, I'm sure if the right people can be convinced that it would help the public better understand things like the network review (I'm doubtful of this), then perhaps something similar to what the TTC publish will be made available.

[#Metro]

Well they took away the bus reliability metric when it got bad

[James]

Well they took away the bus reliability metric when it got bad

That's because bus reliability was, and still is, a joke. Services in Brisbane frequently run late, early, or simply don't show up at all.

This is the sadistic side of me coming out, but think about OTP performance on Coronation Drive in the rain on a Friday. I think it would be very close to 0%.

[longboi]

Well they took away the bus reliability metric when it got bad

I can't stop you being a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
However, I will point out that you're falling into the mentality that the whole transport industry is some evil organisation hell bent on mayhem and making people late.

Anyway,

September 2013 Customer Satisfaction Survey Results

Reliability is still there...

There are things actively happening to get reliable OTR performance data. Believe it or not, nobody is trying to hide things. Presently there simply isn't the ability to gather such data in a way that can be used to provide a meaningful snapshot of OTR.

[techblitz]

Well they took away the bus reliability metric when it got bad

I can't stop you being a paranoid conspiracy theorist.
However, I will point out that you're falling into the mentality that the whole transport industry is some evil organisation hell bent on mayhem and making people late.

Anyway,

September 2013 Customer Satisfaction Survey Results

Reliability is still there...

There are things actively happening to get reliable OTR performance data. Believe it or not, nobody is trying to hide things. Presently there simply isn't the ability to gather such data in a way that can be used to provide a meaningful snapshot of OTR.

Some people are just constantly negative nikko and will nitpick constantly.Glad you brought those up.
Any idea why they choose to put gocard ticketing machine reliability in with services frequency and reliability? Also notice the stark difference in affordability of bus to train users. This would show that people on higher incomes using the busway are relatively unphased by the fare increases.
Might pay to do a comparison on this stat for say 2/3 years ago to confirm it.
As usual train reliability outstrips bus!

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd be interested to see the figures for Thompson buses. I bet many of their routes would be used by less than 10 people per day.

The fantastic 60 minute peak hour frequency and knock off times of 6pm doesn't help it's routes  :conf

[James]

Some people are just constantly negative nikko and will nitpick constantly.Glad you brought those up.
Any idea why they choose to put gocard ticketing machine reliability in with services frequency and reliability? Also notice the stark difference in affordability of bus to train users. This would show that people on higher incomes using the busway are relatively unphased by the fare increases.
Might pay to do a comparison on this stat for say 2/3 years ago to confirm it.
As usual train reliability outstrips bus!

Tell that to the people who have the choice of catching either the bus or train home along Coronation Drive/inner Ipswich Line...