Split thread from Re: Go Card Feedback - tell us of your Go Card experiences!!

[James]

Those minority cases cost $10 each time. Sure, tell the halfwits who lumbered us with the mess in the first place. I've tried talking to those cretins. It's no accident the only customer relations staff they have is a closed-off call centre in Milton. They had an info centre on Albert St near King George Square but the staff there were just paid to neutralize any criticism or complaints.

It is not that difficult to report a fixed fare. You talk about reporting fixed fares like it is going to court or being interrogated. Its not that hard.

People who don't travel often enough to use weekly or monthly tickets also won't often hold up your bus by paying for singles.

Daily tickets. Then he only buys a ticket once a day. Make tickets available at stores so people don't have to buy them from bus drivers.

Uhhhh... lets see. Do I want my bus held up once for someone, or never?

Dailies still end up holding up passengers. And lets think about it. I turn up to my bus stop in the morning. I have to walk 700m to the newsagents, while I only need to walk 100m to my bus stop. Am I going to go out of my way when I can just buy it on board? No. It is also a reason why there are so many on-board top-ups (outside of BCC's area, of course).

And restricting availability of some (or all) tickets to newsagents would be awfully anti-intuitive.

I'm a regular and I would prefer weeklies/monthlies, and I have posted at length here about why.

Only once per week. They could be sold at newsagents as well.

And I'm a regular and prefer 9 then free, as it provides more flexibility. You just reinforce my point that weeklies only suit those who use PT solely for their commute to work. See previous statement regarding newsagent sale.

Walk around the gates?

We can't afford to have staff at gates at every station from 5 am to 11:30 pm.

Let me make it clear. There will be no way for people to walk around the gates because there is no way they can walk around them! There will be fare gates blocking every single entrance. All of them. And before you say jumping - there are ways that can be stopped.

I remember most times but it is easy to forget sometimes. My point is that there is human error inherent in the system and not only that, you are heavily fined for it.

The introduction of Go Card increased fares for both Go Card and paper tickets, because of the cost of running and maintaining the Go Card network.

$10 (and that is the maximum) is hardly a "heavy fine" at all. Go Card is a damn lot better than the previous system, and saves a lot of time and money (not wasting it, like you claim).

With no staff watching, people can still get through more than one at a time.

Yes I think the lawyers would enjoy people being badly injured to prevent fare evasion.

Fare evasion is presumably compensated by the huge fines issued by transit cops. That's all that's really needed for prevention of fare evasion. A better way is to bring back ticket inspectors who can sell people tickets instead of fining them. Far more user-friendly.

What is better - one person paying for two people, or nobody paying at all?

By lawyers having a field day, I meant blaming the state for their own injuries when they try and fare evade. Even though it's against the law, doesn't stop the courts being stupid.

Really, it is not about being user friendly. The current system of buying both paper tickets and topping up go cards is insanely simple. People who fare evade aren't doing it cluelessly (most of the time), they are doing it intentionally, and chances are, these are the same people who go around intimidating, harassing and assaulting people on our railway network. There is a reason why people do not want to travel by train at night. It is because it is unsafe. More often than not, fare evaders are also those perpetrating other crimes on the rail network.

I could go on, but that's heading off on a tangent.

[Gazza]

That's just an inherent problem with public transport. You can't transfer the blame to users. Public transport just is slow and requires connecting services. What, you think you can just get in one vehicle and go from A to B with no stops? Science fiction!

So because public transport is "slow" we should just throw up our hands and make no attempt to speed things up?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Seems to work for brisbanes northside. A Sunday route you say... Not in this lifetime haha.

[ozbob]

Interesting read ..

Are Smart Card Ticketing Systems Profitable? Evidence from the City of Trondheim

All Australian State capital cities now have smart card ticketing, for the obvious reasons.

[newbris]

In any market, people must be given choices. That is the only way to determine which choice is best, both individually or in general. There is no reason why we could not have both Go Card and paper tickets, at their natural respective prices, so that people can choose individually what suits them in terms of price, travel patterns, convenience etc. There is no need to impose Go Card on everyone whether it suits them or not.

Public transport is not perfect. It is inherently slow, expensive. prone to abuse and so on. There is futile to attempt to change these inherent features of public transport.

Disagree. The everything is a market philosophy doesn't match every reality imo as it risks slipping into being an empty political slogan. Running just the one fire service suits me fine.

Giving people choices about what individually suits them is bad in this case. It's not realistic. Instead, we should only have the system that suits you.

I can see why you would think it's all about one type of commuter.

I grew up with single paper tickets, then things moved on with weeklies on the buses, monthlies on the trains. All sorts of things I didn't like about it were fixed by the GoCard. Buses had weeklies, trains had monthlies. I had to care about zone maps and knowledge of the bus zones, train zones, ferry zones. My weeklies had to be for the right number of zones which didn't match how I used the system at all. Monthlies could only be used by regular train 5 day commuters. I HATED making sure I had the right money. Transfers were a pain in the arse. The system felt disjointed, complicated, clumsy and parts of it felt off limits to me as a casual user. The paper system was for a small city of in/out commuters. Big cities need integrated ticketing. Providing the benefits the GoCard does with paper tickets would have been prohibitively expensive if it was even possible.

These are all inherent problems with public transport. What do you want, to be able to get into a vehicle and travel from A to B and pay only for the distance you travel? Why, only a car can do that.

The Go Card stops you from having to watch zone boundaries but with a 40% increase in fares across the board. So instead of worrying about zone boundaries to make sure you save money, now you just pay 40% more for a system that automatically watches the zone boundaries. Financially, you may as well keep the paper tickets and not watch zone boundaries; you are still ahead.

Monthlies and weeklies could be revived and allowed to be used on both trains and buses. They are not intended to fix all the problems with zone boundaries, they are just ways to save money (and time) for the frequent types of trips you make.

Now it is FAR, FAR better. I can jump on a bus with my son, decide on the bus where we are getting off. Transfer to a citycat or jump on train. We don't have to concern ourselves with the system at all. Swipe on, swipe off and leave the rest to the computer. We can do this from Sunshine Coast to Gold Coast with all different council/private operators and on buses, trains, citycats, ferries, light rail, GoGet cars, citycycle bicycles. I love it and if someone tried to sell me the crappy old system back. NO SALE

If anyone did that much traveling every day. Again, the 40% increase cancels all these benefits.

GoCard fares increased 40% when the GoCard was introduced ?

It's a really useful system. I would use services less if the GoCard didn't exist so in that way I would save money

[longboi]

GoCard fares increased 40% when the GoCard was introduced ?

No they didn't.

Even if they did, Mobility refuses to disclose where he got such information from.

Let's all just agree that there is a very small minority who prefer paper tickets, and take solace in the fact that this group will have to make the decision to either get a go card or walk in the not too distant future.

[Arnz]

Interesting read ..

Are Smart Card Ticketing Systems Profitable? Evidence from the City of Trondheim

All Australian State capital cities now have smart card ticketing, for the obvious reasons.

Interestingly enough, some cities have either phased out paper completely (Melbourne), or is in the planning progress of phasing out paper (Sydney, Auckland).   Adelaide uses magnetic cards for single trips (similar to the old BT 10 trip card technology), which is a similar arrangement to the disposable single use smart cards via the Singapore MRT ticket vending machines.

The joke is the Sydney and Auckland have introduced their smart card system later than South East Queensland, and yet SEQ still can't get it right for a number of reasons (including those reasons that are known for keeping the state held back, hence the longtime 'backward state of the world' status by our interstate and overseas friends).

[Mobility]

That's just an inherent problem with public transport. You can't transfer the blame to users. Public transport just is slow and requires connecting services. What, you think you can just get in one vehicle and go from A to B with no stops? Science fiction!

So because public transport is "slow" we should just throw up our hands and make no attempt to speed things up?

No, but Go Card slows it down, it doesn't speed it up. Instead of just walking through the gates at Central and showing my ticket, now I stop, swipe my card, read the display, wait for the gates to open, then walk. After queuing behind sometimes 20 other people doing the same. Same at inner suburban stations I get off at: Instead of just stepping off the train and leaving the platform, I now have to queue for up to five minutes behind up to 30 people. Similar for getting off a bus.

You talk about waiting for people to buy tickets when getting off a bus? All you've done is trade waiting for people to get on the bus to waiting for people to get off the bus (never had to with tickets) and queuing and waiting for everyone to swipe at train stations.

Then there is the waiting at ticket offices to top up my Go Card while counter staff explain Go Card to customers, try to solve some complication with the Go Card or listen to complaints and distress about Go Card problems. I don't exaggerate when I say this happens to me 50% of times that I queue to top up.

[Mobility]

Giving people choices about what individually suits them is bad in this case. It's not realistic. Instead, we should only have the system that suits you.

I can see why you would think it's all about one type of commuter.

You said we should not have choices, just the system which happens to suit you.

GoCard fares increased 40% when the GoCard was introduced ?

No, paper tickets increased 40% when Go Card was introduced, to artificially make Go Card cost-competitive with paper tickets.

It's a really useful system. I would use services less if the GoCard didn't exist so in that way I would save money

Then in that way Go Card is bad for the environment and our dwindling oil supply.

[minbrisbane]

1.  Queueing to get off the bus.  Get up before your stop and wait at the door.  Works every time.

2.  Queueing to top up at ticket window.  Why not either top up online, use the AVVM, or top up at a less busy time?

3.  Touching off at railway stations.  Use the 5 minutes (I can't possibly believe that) to top up. 

[Mobility]

GoCard fares increased 40% when the GoCard was introduced ?

No they didn't.

Even if they did, Mobility refuses to disclose where he got such information from.

Let's all just agree that there is a very small minority who prefer paper tickets, and take solace in the fact that this group will have to make the decision to either get a go card or walk in the not too distant future.

Paper ticket prices went up 40% to match Go Card prices when Go Card was introduced. I didn't imagine it. It was stated on Translink customer information flyers being handed out at stations at the time.

Customers, many customers, frequently complain about problems with Go Card, years now after it was introduced. Ask any rail staff what they think. They will tell you it is a bad system. They are painfully aware of this, since it is they who have to deal with the frequent complaints about it. QR staff do not like Go Card. They tried to tell management it was a bad idea before it was even installed but they were ignored.

Rather it is you rail advocates here grasping onto Go Card as a pretend solution to the inherent problems with public transport fare system and zoning system. Get your heads out of the sand and survey the average users for their opinions.

[Mobility]

1.  Queueing to get off the bus.  Get up before your stop and wait at the door.  Works every time.

2.  Queueing to top up at ticket window.  Why not either top up online, use the AVVM, or top up at a less busy time?

3.  Touching off at railway stations.  Use the 5 minutes (I can't possibly believe that) to top up.

1. Not if everyone does it.
2. Don't want to register my Go Card for privacy reasons. People queue at AWMs too. Making an extra, special trip at a less busy time wastes as much time as queuing when I am actually at the station to use the train.
3. I don't top up that often. Making a virtue of necessity, aren't you?

[Arnz]

GoCard fares increased 40% when the GoCard was introduced ?

No they didn't.

Even if they did, Mobility refuses to disclose where he got such information from.

Let's all just agree that there is a very small minority who prefer paper tickets, and take solace in the fact that this group will have to make the decision to either get a go card or walk in the not too distant future.

Paper ticket prices went up 40% to match Go Card prices when Go Card was introduced. I didn't imagine it. It was stated on Translink customer information flyers being handed out at stations at the time.

Customers, many customers, frequently complain about problems with Go Card, years now after it was introduced. Ask any rail staff what they think. They will tell you it is a bad system. They are painfully aware of this, since it is they who have to deal with the frequent complaints about it. QR staff do not like Go Card. They tried to tell management it was a bad idea before it was even installed but they were ignored.

Rather it is you rail advocates here grasping onto Go Card as a pretend solution to the inherent problems with public transport fare system and zoning system. Get your heads out of the sand and survey the average users for their opinions.

Please provide the sources that go card prices were higher than paper tickets at the time, otherwise many people will dismiss you for trolling.

Most other cities in Australia and the world has smart card systems, and most people use it without problems.  The London system (which uses the same provider as SEQ) has monthly and seasonal periodicals. 

Whilst the go-card system isn't perfect as was outlined many times by the government at the time buying the cheaper versions (hence the limitations imposed by the software and the problems), why is it a "always in Queensland" problem that a vocal minority insisting on scrapping things that has been proven in other cities in the world instead of helping out on the problems. 

Using that logic, you may as well scrap cars, it's against the environment.  May as well go back to the old horse and cart.

[minbrisbane]

1.  Queueing to get off the bus.  Get up before your stop and wait at the door.  Works every time.

2.  Queueing to top up at ticket window.  Why not either top up online, use the AVVM, or top up at a less busy time?

3.  Touching off at railway stations.  Use the 5 minutes (I can't possibly believe that) to top up.

1. Not if everyone does it.
2. Don't want to register my Go Card for privacy reasons. People queue at AWMs too. Making an extra, special trip at a less busy time wastes as much time as queuing when I am actually at the station to use the train.
3. I don't top up that often. Making a virtue of necessity, aren't you?

They generally don't, unless there's a standing load, people will stay seated until the bus is stopped.  Drives me crazy. 

That's your problem then isn't it.  Take your tin-foil hat off.  I didn't say make an extra trip, top up on a less busy day.  Remember, you'd have to queue to buy a paper ticket too.

Use the the 30 maybe 45 seconds to think about how much gocard is a better system.

[Gazza]

I now have to queue for up to five minutes behind up to 30 people.

30 people over 5 mins (300 seconds) means a full 10 seconds per person.

Count to 10. No way in hell it takes each person 10 seconds to walk past the reader on their way out of the station.
The message on the screen dissapears after a couple of seconds, so what are people doing standing there for the rest of the time?

Arnz is right, you're trolling.

No, but Go Card slows it down, it doesn't speed it up. Instead of just walking through the gates at Central and showing my ticket, now I stop, swipe my card, read the display, wait for the gates to open, then walk.

But on buses, a touch on, and a touch off  at the end is less than the time it takes for the driver to sell a ticket.

[James]

30 people over 5 mins (300 seconds) means a full 10 seconds per person.

Count to 10. No way in hell it takes each person 10 seconds to walk past the reader on their way out of the station.
The message on the screen dissapears after a couple of seconds, so what are people doing standing there for the rest of the time?

Arnz is right, you're trolling.

Mobility has half a point, for some people it does genuinely take up to 6-7 seconds to get through a go card gate (just because they are a) too slow b) fiddling with their phone and c) do not know how to use fare gates). Although for the most part it only takes a few seconds. For myself, I can get through a fare gate in no more than a second or two. Just touch and keep moving. The gate won't open if your card wasn't read correctly.

People will get used to it. It is simply awesome to see how effectively such a system works in places like Hong Kong or London. True 'world class' PT there.

[STB]

Okay, I'm exhausted from a 700km trip today, after coming back from a camping trip, so I'll be brief, sorry if this has already been spoken about.

Mobility - I am an ex Transport Planner (Network Planner) at TL.

What I saw behind the scenes - route 250 was able to save approximately 5-10mins (depending on the time of day given the traffic and patronage conditions) each journey - significant saving for a route that had to have artificially extra time put in to account for paper ticket sales - I did that timetable, and that was one of the factors I had to put in that timetable (circa 2007/8).

The data was very good, we could see where the touch ons were happening and the touch offs.  Also everytime someone touched on, it recorded the actual arrival time that us Planners could see, so we were getting real world data on not only patronage movements, but also timetable data for every single bus route in SEQ, we could for example how patronage changes day to day, week by week, month by month if you were so inclined, and one could drill down that data to see a specific bus route and see how it performs over many weeks from the Go Card data.  It was critical data.  And that was in the early days of it being used, so who knows just how good that data is nowadays.

Prior to the Go Card, the only realistic way we had was essentially educated guesswork, and this was a mix of feedback from the operators, feedback from the drivers, complaints from the public, and physical counts ie: get on a bus and sit on the bus for an entire day (in fact it was usually two weeks where an actual Planner got on board and spent that time counting the passengers getting on and off at the various stops, all day, everyday).  I once did it for routes 240 and 241 (the original 241) and believe me, it got monotonous after the second day, and I'm a PT nut.  Also, with that time taken up sitting on a bus all day to count passengers, I could've been doing other things at the office, but had to put that off simply to get the data before a decision could be made (eg: cut a route).  Some of that continued after we started receiving the data from Cubic, but not to that level, although I do rarely see that they hire people temporarily to sit for a week or two at a bus station and do manual counts that way, still far more effective and more accurate than the educated guesswork we had to do pre-Go Card.

Your issues simply sound subjective, and to me it seems that the problem is actually yourself, and not the system.  I've used the Go Card since 2008 in the pre trial stage, when I wasn't even able to show the design of the Go Card while I was testing it as it hadn't been cleared by the Minister at the time, through to today, and I've only ever had one die on me.

I travel a LOT, going to/from university, out to visit friends, for work (volunteer and otherwise), and 99% of the time I don't notice any major issues - trust me, if I saw a major issue or an issue that needed to be pointed out, I would say it, as I've done in the past when I've come across a bug for example, which as soon as TL knew about it, it was fixed pretty quickly.  The only real issues I had was a few years ago when the on board GPS failed to work properly and it took several months before that was fixed, which it has now and I haven't seen a GPS problem with the DCU since.  I don't drive, so I'm out on public transport nearly everyday.

What I have seen is simply human errors, and humans are fallible, no matter how clear you make a system, there will always be the human factor attached to it, from paper tickets through to the Go Card and whatever ticketing system there is in the future.  Paper tickets for example had people not realizing which zone they were in and inadvertently entering into a zone they hadn't paid for, through to staff accidentally selling the incorrect ticket.  I had to memorize the entire zonal system from zone 1 to 23, to make sure I only went to the zones I had paid for, since the Go Card I haven't thought of it since and don't even think of the zones now, I just touch on, touch off and make sure it isn't some obvious erroneous fare, which in five years has only happened to me a couple of times in all my travel, and has been fixed quite quickly once I've contacted TL.

The benefits far outweigh the negatives, and unfortunately it's human nature to take note of the negatives more often than the positives - I've studied consumer behaviour at university, so I'm aware of this.

Overall from your posts, I can only conclude that you just simply lack trust in the Go Card system than anything else, and hence you tend to have a higher awareness if something goes wrong, although based on your posts (and after 700km worth of travel, I've only glanced through them all), it's mostly human error that is happening, mixed with some misinformation about the Go Card system itself. 

The Go Card system itself though is quite solid, and I've used Myki in Melbourne to at least have some point of comparison, and that system has still got some issues with it, namely the time it takes for the reader to read the card.

I think overall, it's just going to be at the point where paper tickets are removed completely, in lieu of more outlets to purchase/top up a Go Card and some of the outstanding issues with the unions over the bus drivers and cash are sorted out, and hopefully that happens sooner rather than later.

It's called progress, and either you keep up with the progress or you stay back and get left behind (and that applies to anything), I know, I'm now in the FTV industry and some massive changes are occurring in that industry that will affect Producers and audiences alike over the coming years.  Rather than fighting against it though, I'm embracing it and running with it, and for that I'm quite excited about the future in my new career path.

[ozbob]

Hey Mobility.  TransLink regularly surveys go card users.  eg. http://translink.com.au/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/public-transport-performance-data

Use of go card is one of the best parameters.  Nothing is perfect, but go card has dramatically improved bus running times, data acquisition, ease of travelling for the majority and so forth.

If you have a problem with the go card, suggest you apply for a TransLink Access Pass if you are eligible.

Good luck with your paper ticket quest.    You won't get much support here as the facts are obvious.

Cheers!

[ozbob]

...
Let's all just agree that there is a very small minority who prefer paper tickets, and take solace in the fact that this group will have to make the decision to either get a go card or walk in the not too distant future.

  Rippa Rita ...

[SurfRail]

Rather it is you rail advocates here grasping onto Go Card as a pretend solution to the inherent problems with public transport fare system and zoning system. Get your heads out of the sand and survey the average users for their opinions.

I would venture to say that virtually everybody on this board uses go card, virtually all of us have registered our cards and while errors do happen, most of us have a generally positive view of the technology.  Given that we have regular discussions with the people at QR and TransLink Division, we have a decent appreciation for what it has actually done for the system as a whole (for instance, the methodology used to develop the new bus networks coming on-line, being based on the ability to work out where multi-trip commuters making transfers actually end up where that ability did not exist before). 

Bob also took the time out to hold numerous sessions with Seniors to go through go card and potential issues, and the response was on the whole positive again.

Some people just don't like the system.  That isn't a good metric for determining whether it was worth implementing and continuing with.

You aren't from the TransLink Ripoff, are you?  You strike me as being more than a bit disaffected by all of this.

[Mobility]

Please provide the sources that go card prices were higher than paper tickets at the time, otherwise many people will dismiss you for trolling.

I'd expect a better memory from an informed rail advocate. Heading "Reception", subheading "Criticisms", paragraph 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_card

And an article in the Brisbane Times, plus mention of the 70 000 complaints in the first year from the "minority" who had issues.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/go-card-meltdown-thousands-of-failures-revealed-20100106-ltc7.html

Guess I'm not a troll.

Most other cities in Australia and the world has smart card systems, and most people use it without problems.  The London system (which uses the same provider as SEQ) has monthly and seasonal periodicals. 

Just like "most people" in SEQ don't have problems with Go Card, except QR staff and those customers making the frequent and continual complaints to them about it.

Whilst the go-card system isn't perfect as was outlined many times by the government at the time buying the cheaper versions (hence the limitations imposed by the software and the problems), why is it a "always in Queensland" problem that a vocal minority insisting on scrapping things that has been proven in other cities in the world instead of helping out on the problems. 

Not sure what you accept as proof. The way you tell it, Go Card has been proven too. In any case, how are the systems used in the other cities badically different to Go Card - software problems aside?

Using that logic, you may as well scrap cars, it's against the environment.  May as well go back to the old horse and cart.

There's a difference between technological applications that work and those which are merely technology for technology's sake.

Let me sum up our discussion: Regarding money, you accept the 40% fare price increase in return for eliminating of the work of keeping track of zone boundaries, as well as not having to decide your stop-off point in advance. But the whole point of observing the latter was to save money in fares. So really you have traded a 40% increase in fares to save money on fares. Spending more money to save less. Not only did you take the 40% increase, but you also did away with weekly and monthly paper tickets which at their original price are an even further saving.

Regarding time, you have traded time waiting for people to buy tickets on buses for time waiting for people to swipe getting off buses, leaving train platforms, filing through narrow gates one at a time and waiting in queues for people frequently dealing with Go Card issues, as well as the occasional issue you have yourself.

The only way it would really prevent fare evasion is if all stations in SEQ were gated and manned 5 am - 11:30 pm every day, in which case the gates would be unnecessary.

This, you say, is a smoothly operating, time-and-money-saving, technological advance and that anyone who doesn't appreciate the benefits is an ungrateful Luddite.

Tell me, is this the same thing as the automobile, the telephone, the washing machine and television, all genuinely beneficial technical advances? Are the "benefits" of Go Card worth replacing simple paper ticketing with a network of readers and gates across SEQ?

My point: One of the inherent problems of public transport, since it doesn't take you directly from where you are to where you want to go in one trip, without stopping for other people, and since you don't own it, is how to charge users according to how they use it. You need zones, fare structures and some means of enforcing payment. It's just an inherent feature and it involves compromises, as does any communal service. With Go Card, all you have done is trade one set of compromises for a different set of compromises. The technology is more sophisticated but it is not an improvement in terms of results.

[Mobility]

1.  Queueing to get off the bus.  Get up before your stop and wait at the door.  Works every time.

2.  Queueing to top up at ticket window.  Why not either top up online, use the AVVM, or top up at a less busy time?

3.  Touching off at railway stations.  Use the 5 minutes (I can't possibly believe that) to top up.

1. Not if everyone does it.
2. Don't want to register my Go Card for privacy reasons. People queue at AWMs too. Making an extra, special trip at a less busy time wastes as much time as queuing when I am actually at the station to use the train.
3. I don't top up that often. Making a virtue of necessity, aren't you?

They generally don't, unless there's a standing load, people will stay seated until the bus is stopped.  Drives me crazy. 

Even if everyone did get up and queue before the bus stopped, it still takes time for each person to swipe - more than if they can just walk straight off. But for the same reason so many people waiting to board trains never realize that packing shoulder-to-shoulder right in front of the train door and blocking people on the train are tying to get out will mean a longer wait rather than a shorter one, people will never learn to save everyone time getting off a bus by getting up to swipe before it stops.

That's your problem then isn't it.  Take your tin-foil hat off.  I didn't say make an extra trip, top up on a less busy day.  Remember, you'd have to queue to buy a paper ticket too.

It's my choice, and a very wise one. I'm not a tin-foil hat wearer just because I don't want every trip I make every day being recorded in a government agency database.

I top up when I need to top up, so that there is not too much credit stored on the card in case I lose it.

If we were queuing for paper tickets instead of Go Card top-ups, the complaints and problems would be non-existent.

Use the the 30 maybe 45 seconds to think about how much gocard is a better system.

Think about it for longer than 30 seconds and you'll realise that it's not.

[ozbob]

Smart card systems were and are being introduced because community interests are better served.

You have your view.  Others disagree and Governments, Transport operators continue to implement smart card ticket systems. 

I expect that eventually systems will be fully interchangeable.  A card that allows you to access public transport in Brisbane will also allow Melbourne, Sydney and wherever.

The next step for Brisbane will be the removal of all paper tickets I expect.  Similar to Melbourne.  There are cost savings to be made by doing this.

The go card system itself is fine.  The problem has always been the crazy fare structure  itself.  Who knows, that might yet be addressed ...

[ozbob]

Another interesting read, a snap shot from 2009

How Oyster Cards reduce the environmental impact of the London bus nework --> http://mosaic.cnfolio.com/B101CW2008B180

London is about to remove all paper tickets from their buses, such are the benefits of the smart card.

[STB]

Please provide the sources that go card prices were higher than paper tickets at the time, otherwise many people will dismiss you for trolling.

I'd expect better from an informed rail advocate. Heading "Reception", subheading "Criticisms", paragraph 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_card

Erm, why not go straight to the source using the Wayback Machine.  Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and shouldn't be used in arguments (University Research 101).

Here are the prices from December 2008 (they were implemented in August 2008).

http://web.archive.org/web/20081217071002/http://www.translink.com.au/qt/translin.nsf/index/ti_fares_aug08

Eg: Zone 1 adult single paper ticket - $2.40; Go Card - $1.92 (cheaper than a paper ticket).

Prices from February 2010 (see below)

http://web.archive.org/web/20100301131658/http://www.translink.com.au/fares.php

Eg: Zone 1 adult single paper ticket - $3.40; Go Card (peak) - $2.30, (off peak) - $2.07

[Arnz]

Please provide the sources that go card prices were higher than paper tickets at the time, otherwise many people will dismiss you for trolling.

I'd expect better from an informed rail advocate. Heading "Reception", subheading "Criticisms", paragraph 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_card

And an article in the Brisbane Times, plus mention of the 70 000 complaints in the first year from the "minority" who had issues.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/go-card-meltdown-thousands-of-failures-revealed-20100106-ltc7.html

Guess I'm not a troll.

Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source, not to mention at times outdated.  As was outlined by others in this thread, many of those criticisms has been pointed out by the other users and either have been addressed, or is being addressed.

Your newspaper article is from 2010, what's not to say many of those problems have been addressed since 3 years ago.  Also, that article also had user errors counted in those statistics.

What's not to say that I and a few others may still say that you're still trolling by trying to use outdated statistics from when the system had started.

And I'm not a rail advocate, I'm a PT advocate in general.  I use buses and trains.

Edit: STB beat me to it by providing sources, I'm still thinking you're trolling for the sake of it.  Up to you to prove us wrong.

Most other cities in Australia and the world has smart card systems, and most people use it without problems.  The London system (which uses the same provider as SEQ) has monthly and seasonal periodicals. 

Just like "most people" in SEQ don't have problems with Go Card, except QR staff and those customers making the frequent and continual complaints to them about it.

Whilst the go-card system isn't perfect as was outlined many times by the government at the time buying the cheaper versions (hence the limitations imposed by the software and the problems), why is it a "always in Queensland" problem that a vocal minority insisting on scrapping things that has been proven in other cities in the world instead of helping out on the problems. 

Not sure what you accept as proof. The way you tell it, Go Card has been proven too. In any case, how are the systems used in the other cities badically different to Go Card - software problems aside?

Using that logic, you may as well scrap cars, it's against the environment.  May as well go back to the old horse and cart.

There's a difference between technological applications that work and those which are merely technology for technology's sake.

Let me sum up our discussion: Regarding money, you accept the 40% fare price increase in return for eliminating of the work of keeping track of zone boundaries, as well as not having to decide your stop-off point in advance. But the whole point of observing the latter was to save money in fares. So really you have traded a 40% increase in fares to save money on fares. Spending more money to save less. Not only did you take the 40% increase, but you also did away with weekly and monthly paper tickets which at their original price are an even further saving.

Care to point out the 40% increase in go card fares.  The sources provided by others only outlined the 40% increase in paper ticket fares above the paper ticket levels at the time.  We're still waiting.

[Mobility]

Please provide the sources that go card prices were higher than paper tickets at the time, otherwise many people will dismiss you for trolling.

I'd expect better from an informed rail advocate. Heading "Reception", subheading "Criticisms", paragraph 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_card

Erm, why not go straight to the source using the Wayback Machine.  Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and shouldn't be used in arguments (University Research 101).

If I only had time. So you think Brisbane Times made that one up? Information handbills produced by Translink and distributed at stations declared the increase and it's purpose.

Here are the prices from December 2008 (they were implemented in August 2008).

http://web.archive.org/web/20081217071002/http://www.translink.com.au/qt/translin.nsf/index/ti_fares_aug08

Eg: Zone 1 adult single paper ticket - $2.40; Go Card - $1.92 (cheaper than a paper ticket).

Prices from February 2010 (see below)

http://web.archive.org/web/20100301131658/http://www.translink.com.au/fares.php

Eg: Zone 1 adult single paper ticket - $3.40; Go Card (peak) - $2.30, (off peak) - $2.07

Go Card prices were made 20% less than paper ticket prices to shove people onto Go Card.

[Arnz]

Seeing that this topic is started to get flooded on go-card security in general, Mods, can I suggest a split of this topic into a separate topic called  "Go Card Security and Fares" discussion, or a name deemed appropriate? 

If you guys don't agree, that's fine.

[ozbob]

Leave it be for now.  Interesting discussion ...   

[Mobility]

I now have to queue for up to five minutes behind up to 30 people.

30 people over 5 mins (300 seconds) means a full 10 seconds per person.

Count to 10. No way in hell it takes each person 10 seconds to walk past the reader on their way out of the station.
The message on the screen dissapears after a couple of seconds, so what are people doing standing there for the rest of the time?

Arnz is right, you're trolling.

Okay, a 2.5 min wait to leave the platform. Still a long time. However, it does take some people 10 seconds to swipe off, since when they do it wrong or there is some reader issue (it is never clear which). Some people swipe and get a weird message like "seek assistance", swipe again, get an "already touched" message, wait for the screen to clear, stand and wonder what to do, swipe again and so on.

In this system, everyone moves as fast as the slowest person.

No, but Go Card slows it down, it doesn't speed it up. Instead of just walking through the gates at Central and showing my ticket, now I stop, swipe my card, read the display, wait for the gates to open, then walk.

But on buses, a touch on, and a touch off  at the end is less than the time it takes for the driver to sell a ticket.

Still a longer time than everyone just walking off. Anyway, back to the gates: The gates take up half the entrance/exit space, i.e. reduce it to half of what it was, and require people to file through one at a time. Add to that you have to find the right gate for entering or exiting - they each only go one way. I used to just be able to walk through and show my ticket without stopping. Definitely slower with the gates.

[STB]

Please provide the sources that go card prices were higher than paper tickets at the time, otherwise many people will dismiss you for trolling.

I'd expect better from an informed rail advocate. Heading "Reception", subheading "Criticisms", paragraph 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_card

Erm, why not go straight to the source using the Wayback Machine.  Wikipedia is not a reliable source, and shouldn't be used in arguments (University Research 101).

If I only had time. So you think Brisbane Times made that one up? Information handbills produced by Translink and distributed at stations declared the increase and it's purpose.

Here are the prices from December 2008 (they were implemented in August 2008).

http://web.archive.org/web/20081217071002/http://www.translink.com.au/qt/translin.nsf/index/ti_fares_aug08

Eg: Zone 1 adult single paper ticket - $2.40; Go Card - $1.92 (cheaper than a paper ticket).

Prices from February 2010 (see below)

http://web.archive.org/web/20100301131658/http://www.translink.com.au/fares.php

Eg: Zone 1 adult single paper ticket - $3.40; Go Card (peak) - $2.30, (off peak) - $2.07

Go Card prices were made 20% less than paper ticket prices to shove people onto Go Card.

Okay, firstly, journalists aren't adept or an expert to fares and the inner workings of the Go Card.  Journalists make assumptions and errors themselves when reporting, and this applies to pretty much anything, so you need to understand how the Go Card technology works and human behaviour over time to really understand the gist of the article and if the journalist did a good job on the article or not.

This is 2010, Go Card was still relatively new, only 2 years old, so there were still some issues with the devices and the people using the devices from staff to passengers as they slowly adapted to using this then new technology.  All of which is perfectly normal, and happens worldwide whenever new technology is implemented.

We are now in the sixth year of the Go Card, and for the most part, people are far more ahead then they were back in 2010 with using the Go Card, seniors now use it without any major issues, I've even seen drivers been more adept to using the DCUs and topping up on the bus, especially with the every now and then wayward passenger who gets a bit excited at touching the card before the driver has had a chance to switch the reader to read only, ie: the passenger has inadvertently touched on instead of waiting for the driver to set it up so the card can be simply be read so it can be topped up - I've seen drivers now pick up on this and tell passengers not to touch again after topping up to prevent a canceled touch on.  So kudos to the training in that regard which has obviously been reviewed internally and the drivers have been updated on what to do.

The technology itself is far more reliable than in 2010 as well, I haven't come across any non working beeps in several months now, I haven't had a Go Card die on me in about a year now, in fact as I mentioned earlier, I've only ever had one Go Card die on me, and the others I've lost out of my own carelessness, which I rightly have to pay for a new one and get the balance transferred.  And the GPS issues of 2011 (??) have been sorted completely.  I have not come across any non working GPS since.

If you really want to have your argument have credence, then you need to post more recent articles supporting your argument, especially when it comes to technology which has obviously advanced since the issues of the early years have been sorted, with the odd rare bug popping up - and fixed very quickly at that.

And why did Arnz say that you were saying that Go Card prices were HIGHER than paper ticket prices, that's why I posted those links.  Like I said in an earlier post, I've been travelling nearly 700km over the past 24hrs for personal reasons so am quite tired and am only starting to play catch up now with everything.

[Mobility]

If you have a problem with the go card, suggest you apply for a TransLink Access Pass if you are eligible.

So if I don't like Go Card, I have an intellectual disability?

[Mobility]

Rather it is you rail advocates here grasping onto Go Card as a pretend solution to the inherent problems with public transport fare system and zoning system. Get your heads out of the sand and survey the average users for their opinions.

I would venture to say that virtually everybody on this board uses go card, virtually all of us have registered our cards and while errors do happen, most of us have a generally positive view of the technology.  Given that we have regular discussions with the people at QR and TransLink Division, we have a decent appreciation for what it has actually done for the system as a whole (for instance, the methodology used to develop the new bus networks coming on-line, being based on the ability to work out where multi-trip commuters making transfers actually end up where that ability did not exist before). 

That's not what QR staff say to me. They hate it.

Bob also took the time out to hold numerous sessions with Seniors to go through go card and potential issues, and the response was on the whole positive again.

Yeah, issues.

Some people just don't like the system.  That isn't a good metric for determining whether it was worth implementing and continuing with.

If they don't like it, it's for a reason.

You aren't from the TransLink Ripoff, are you?  You strike me as being more than a bit disaffected by all of this.

Hadn't heard of them but they seem well adjusted. Ah, but you are on a rail advocate board, so your objectivity on this issue is not above question.

[Arnz]

Perhaps you could go over to the TransLink Ripoff's FB and share your views, where a large number of people on that group may share your views about smart card technology and privacy.   You may feel more at home over there than here trying to share your views.

A vast majority of this group may not always share the TL Ripoff's views on Public Transport, but do agree on other viewpoints (such as the expensive fare system)

[Mobility]

Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source, not to mention at times outdated.  As was outlined by others in this thread, many of those criticisms has been pointed out by the other users and either have been addressed, or is being addressed.

I've seen how you address points. You avoid them and then accuse the other person of trolling if he doesn't shut up.

Your newspaper article is from 2010, what's not to say many of those problems have been addressed since 3 years ago.

The people who still frequently complain about them now, and the QR staff who address them.

Also, that article also had user errors counted in those statistics.

If Go Card is the smoothly-running, simple-to-operate marvel of technological design you claim, there would be no room for human error except for people who are too stupid to operate a doorknob.

What's not to say that I and a few others may still say that you're still trolling by trying to use outdated statistics from when the system had started.

I use Go Card now, I'm not just reading about it from five years ago.

And I'm not a rail advocate, I'm a PT advocate in general.  I use buses and trains.

So do I, always, for about 25 years now. Not an advocate.

Edit: STB beat me to it by providing sources, I'm still thinking you're trolling for the sake of it.  Up to you to prove us wrong.

I don't have to prove anything to you, which is fortunate, because it is very hard to do.

Care to point out the 40% increase in go card fares.  The sources provided by others only outlined the 40% increase in paper ticket fares above the paper ticket levels at the time.  We're still waiting.

Tickets went up 40% to match Go Card, while Go Card was set at 20% off ticket prices to shove people onto it. Probably the paper ticket prices were set to subsidise the lower Go Card prices. The 20% discount was only temporary as an initial push. Fares have been increased twice since then.

[Mobility]

And why did Arnz say that you were saying that Go Card prices were HIGHER than paper ticket prices, that's why I posted those links.

Paper tickets went up 40%. Go Card was temporarily set at 20% less ("discount") than paper tickets. Shortly after, prices went up about 15% for both and then increased again later. To me that's a 40% or more increase in prices from original paper ticket prices in a very short time. I think it's fair to attribute that increase to the introduction of the Go Card. Had there been no Go Card, ticket prices would not have increased 40% or more in five years.

Currently a paper ticket for one zone costs about $4.50. Just for getting on a train and traveling one stop. Daylight robbery. You can hardly say Go Card is cost competitive if they are resorting to these Mickey Mouse shenanigans to make us like it. It's simply more economical and/or convenient for many people to buy single paper tickets in stead of using a Go Card at least occasionally. They should have that option.

[ozbob]

If you have a problem with the go card, suggest you apply for a TransLink Access Pass if you are eligible.

So if I don't like Go Card, I have an intellectual disability?

Your words.

The fact is if someone is unable to use a go card there is an alternative.  I know of situations where people have been getting constant fixed fares, have been able to get a TransLink Access Pass.  Up the health care professional's assessment.

As people age, they do become forgetful.   I would like to see an automatic entitlement to apply for a TransLink Access Pass over say 60 years as desired.  I would expect that to be done should paper be removed completely.  Many folk are quite happy to continue to use a go card, but some people the fixed fare stress is an issue.  There is an alternative.

[Arnz]

Wikipedia is hardly a reliable source, not to mention at times outdated.  As was outlined by others in this thread, many of those criticisms has been pointed out by the other users and either have been addressed, or is being addressed.

I've seen how you address points. You avoid them and then accuse the other person of trolling if he doesn't shut up.

Any of my past threads is irrelevant.   The onus is on you, not me since you made the earlier claims.

Trolling is trying to incite people for a response by posting incorrect information, or very questionable information to inflame a response.  Your go card 40% increase claim is one example.

Your newspaper article is from 2010, what's not to say many of those problems have been addressed since 3 years ago.

The people who still frequently complain about them now, and the QR staff who address them.

Care to point out any recent newspaper articles.

Also, that article also had user errors counted in those statistics.

If Go Card is the smoothly-running, simple-to-operate marvel of technological design you claim, there would be no room for human error except for people who are too stupid to operate a doorknob.

Posters in this thread have already outlined that the complaints are going down, with mostly faulty cards being one of the reasons.

Care to point out the 40% increase in go card fares.  The sources provided by others only outlined the 40% increase in paper ticket fares above the paper ticket levels at the time.  We're still waiting.

Tickets went up 40% to match Go Card, while Go Card was set at 20% off ticket prices to shove people onto it. Probably the paper ticket prices were set to subsidise the lower Go Card prices. The 20% discount was only temporary as an initial push. Fares have been increased twice since then.

I'm still waiting for this claim btw, if they wanted paper tickets to match go card fares at the time, they would've DECREASED the paper ticket prices.  As STB outlined, the 2008 prices still had the go card cheaper than paper tickets.

[Mobility]

Perhaps you could go over to the TransLink Ripoff's FB and share your views, where a large number of people on that group may share your views about smart card technology and privacy.   You may feel more at home over there than here trying to share your views.

A vast majority of this group may not always share the TL Ripoff's views on Public Transport, but do agree on other viewpoints (such as the expensive fare system)

Adversity is the test of ideas.

[Mobility]

Care to point out any recent newspaper articles.

Sorry, just first hand experience and the word of QR staff.

Posters in this thread have already outlined that the complaints are going down, with mostly faulty cards being one of the reasons.

Going down maybe, but still frequent.

I'm still waiting for this claim btw, if they wanted paper tickets to match go card fares at the time, they would've DECREASED the paper ticket prices.  As STB outlined, the 2008 prices still had the go card cheaper than paper tickets.

Go Card prices were cheaper because they increased paper tickets 40% from their original price and set Go Card prices 20% under the increased ticket prices.