FREE Ferries

[#Metro]

Hello.

I've used the cross-river ferries in the past few days and the CityHopper. The CityHopper is wildly popular beyond belief, which is in no small part due to the high fares generally.

Cross river trips are generally slow and short. At these distances the TransLink fare is quite a penalty for a service so short. The function of these services cannot be achieved effectively in any other way (can't walk, no bridge, can't drive, no bus, no train, can't use citycycle, rather not swim) and given the absence of substitutes would not likely affect other PT options in a negative way by cannibalising existing passengers.

I propose that ALL CROSS RIVER FERRIES BE DECLARED FREE OF CHARGE in Brisbane. This could be quite an attractive proposal from both a tourist perspective, a general passenger perspective and would be some relief from extortionate fares which will not rely on waiting for haphazard/wayward politicians to reform fares across the entire TL system. It may also be an attractive policy for local government elections and come at modest financial cost (less than Maroon CityGlider perhaps?).

This proposal would NOT APPLY TO CITYCATS which should continue to charge.

[ozbob]

Course they should.  Perth has the free transit zone for example  We have free City Hopper, free loop buses.

Travel solely within zone one could be made free.  Probably too enlightened for Queensland ...

[Arnz]

Making Zone 1 free wouldn't be fair to passengers in the outer regions that travel only one zone (ie Ipswich, Gold Coast, Caboolture, Sunshine Coast). 

One suggestion would be those that travel only one zone in designated CBD zones in the outer regions for freee could be funded partially by the regional councils and TL.

[ozbob]

I hear you Arnz, but does it really matter?  Bus and ferry (some free already).  Sunshine Coast has free buses over the holidays.

I am living in Ipswich area, doesn't matter to me.  If and when I am in the CBD and want to cross the river fine.  Go home on the train I pay for it ...

It is more about energising the system.  Get folks out and about.  How many people will bother with a zone one rail journey?  Most would perhaps get on a ferry or bus perhaps to trounce around the CBD.  Most walk.

[#Metro]

Just make the cross river ferries free. Anything larger than that is just setting yourself a very difficult task to push through. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[nathandavid88]

I agree that cross river ferries should be free but only them specifically. 1 zone free travel would open a huge can of worms and would be very unfair to some commuters. I'd rather see effort devoted towards a complete overhaul of fares than trying to push a single zone free system through.

*Disclaimer: I say this even as someone who has a single zone trip to my workplace, so free single zone travel would result in a free weekly commute for me.

[beauyboy]

I agree the cross rivers should be free. It makes no sense that the city ferries (now hoppers) are free the same routes by the Cross's are charged.
Yes the citycats should stay the same but the inner service mono's should be free

Donald

[#Metro]

Any other views on this topic?

[James]

I believe the Cross-River ferries which directly compete for patronage with the CityHopper should be made free. Right now CityHopper gets overcrowded and uneven loadings because people do not want to pay $3 to cross the river.

No other transit should be free. Zone 1 trips being free brings up a very contentious issue of why a 1-2km trip down Adelaide Street should cost any more than a 1-2km trip down Hawken Drive, or Gympie Road etc. In fact, I would more favour free one-zone trips in the suburbs, as in our suburbs is often when the car reigns supreme. And often, Zone 1 trips are competing with the foot or bicycles - not cars.

[aldonius]

If we were serious about short-trip PT usage we'd have a fare structure with free single zone journeys everywhere (if you go through n zones in a journey, pay for n-1 of them)...
Maybe not. But most on here I think would agree that single zone fares are too high in relation to the rest of the system (let alone the general cost).


CBD-KP cross river ferries should be free for the simple reason that the CityHopper is. Not sure either way for the New Farm ones.

[#Metro]

No other transit should be free. Zone 1 trips being free brings up a very contentious issue of why a 1-2km trip down Adelaide Street should cost any more than a 1-2km trip down Hawken Drive, or Gympie Road etc. In fact, I would more favour free one-zone trips in the suburbs, as in our suburbs is often when the car reigns supreme. And often, Zone 1 trips are competing with the foot or bicycles - not cars.

In these cases there are alternatives - if you don't like the idea of paying $3 to catch the bus down Adelaide Street you can walk or bicycle. For cross river ferries over short distances there really are no other alternatives other than swimming across the river.

[techblitz]

If we were serious about short-trip PT usage we'd have a fare structure with free single zone journeys everywhere (if you go through n zones in a journey, pay for n-1 of them)...
Maybe not. But most on here I think would agree that single zone fares are too high in relation to the rest of the system (let alone the general cost).


CBD-KP cross river ferries should be free for the simple reason that the CityHopper is. Not sure either way for the New Farm ones.

the single zone trips are too much of a gold mine. Especially from the university suburbs. Why would they opt to give the majority of uni students free travel? eg: sunnyb hills to griffith or toowong to uq etc etc. Sure zone boundaries can easily be changed to counter it...but that would be dodgy/shady.
As enticing as it sounds for students...it simply isn't feasible for the network that is provided to us.

[Gazza]

the single zone trips are too much of a gold mine. Especially from the university suburbs

Like the students who catch the bus from St Lucia shops to Chancellors Place, rather than just cutting across the oval and past the glasshouses.

[techblitz]

the single zone trips are too much of a gold mine. Especially from the university suburbs

Like the students who catch the bus from St Lucia shops to Chancellors Place, rather than just cutting across the oval and past the glasshouses.

or the plethora of robertson students that board at qe2 for the 1 minute uphill trip to Nathan campus 

[James]

the single zone trips are too much of a gold mine. Especially from the university suburbs. Why would they opt to give the majority of uni students free travel? eg: sunnyb hills to griffith or toowong to uq etc etc. Sure zone boundaries can easily be changed to counter it...but that would be dodgy/shady.
As enticing as it sounds for students...it simply isn't feasible for the network that is provided to us.

^ this. Make one-zone trips free, and before you know it these services are bleeding money. Instead, one-zone trips should be made cheaper - they cost far too much in proportion to long distance trips.

Like the students who catch the bus from St Lucia shops to Chancellors Place, rather than just cutting across the oval and past the glasshouses.

Or people who catch a bus from UQ Lakes to Dutton Park Place. Because crossing the river to some is apparently the equivalent to crossing the ocean.

[Gazza]

People getting off/waiting at dutton park place seems to be a rarity for me.....Not the daily occurence of those short trippers on the 412.

[ozbob]

Media release 13th September 2013



Brisbane: More free Cross River Ferries?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers says in light of the looming 7.5% fare increase all Cross River Ferries should be made free (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Due to the prevailing high-fare environment on the SEQ TransLink public transport network many people have stopped using public transport, and are worsening traffic congestion in and around Brisbane."

"Affordability continues to track badly on TransLink's KPIs, even after the 9-then free initiatives (2). Paying $3.28 just to cross the Brisbane River is extortion!"

"By declaring all Cross River Ferries (except the CityCats)free would give immediate fare relief without having to wait for authorities to overhaul the fare system."

References:

1. FREE Ferries http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10194.0

2. TransLink Performance Data Snapshot
     --> http://translink.com.au/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/open-data/2013-jul-snapshot.pdf

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[longboi]

Unless BCC pays for it, this would stand in the way of making advances in the overall fare strategy.

[techblitz]

Unless BCC pays for it, this would stand in the way of making advances in the overall fare strategy.

couldn't agree more nikko

and as some people have stated before...its rather unfair to give a lot of inner city residents who are already on middle to high incomes free travel yet people from low income areas such as inala,waterford ,slacks creek having to fill the offset by paying even higher fares. If the main reason the city hopper went free is to attract tourists then perhaps they should just introduce free travel on the tourist gocard instead of putting a lot of permanent inner city residents at a huge fare advantage over other commuters. Yes paying 3.40 for a short trip over the river is extortion but more than likely their next transfer will cost next to nothing if they are heading into the city etc. eg: trip from bulimba to tennerife to city glider.

[STB]

Unless BCC pays for it, this would stand in the way of making advances in the overall fare strategy.

couldn't agree more nikko

and as some people have stated before...its rather unfair to give a lot of inner city residents who are already on middle to high incomes free travel yet people from low income areas such as inala,waterford ,slacks creek having to fill the offset by paying even higher fares. If the main reason the city hopper went free is to attract tourists then perhaps they should just introduce free travel on the tourist gocard instead of putting a lot of permanent inner city residents at a huge fare advantage over other commuters. Yes paying 3.40 for a short trip over the river is extortion but more than likely their next transfer will cost next to nothing if they are heading into the city etc. eg: trip from bulimba to tennerife to city glider.

+1.  I think this media release is short sighted.

[ozbob]

So Perth, that has a much better fare box recovery, frequency and connections, vastly superior fare structure, has its Free Transit Zone http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/UsingTransperth/FreeTransperthServices.aspx.  Yes it must stand in the way of their overall fare strategy NOT ... it works as a further driver to use public transport.

Time we got out of our comfort zones of continuing mediocrity and failure.  It is time to be bold.  He who dares wins!

@STB we have had far too much myopia from TransLink et al thank you ...

[newbris]

Unless BCC pays for it, this would stand in the way of making advances in the overall fare strategy.

couldn't agree more nikko

and as some people have stated before...its rather unfair to give a lot of inner city residents who are already on middle to high incomes free travel yet people from low income areas such as inala,waterford ,slacks creek having to fill the offset by paying even higher fares. If the main reason the city hopper went free is to attract tourists then perhaps they should just introduce free travel on the tourist gocard instead of putting a lot of permanent inner city residents at a huge fare advantage over other commuters. Yes paying 3.40 for a short trip over the river is extortion but more than likely their next transfer will cost next to nothing if they are heading into the city etc. eg: trip from bulimba to tennerife to city glider.

As an inner city resident I would be happy to be on a more equal footing with those from the outer suburbs. My fares are approaching $1 per km which is "massively" higher than others and a huge disincentive pushing you into driving, specially as a family. I suspect we need the free hoppers to claw back some good will from the tourists after they have paid a bunch of 1 or 2 zone fares on other modes.

[ozbob]

The City Loop buses are well used by all.   Not rocket science ...   

[ozbob]

newbris getting inner city residents onto PT and active transport as the preferred transport options as able is the way forward.  Enlightened jurisdictions realise that .. 

There are excellent benefits out side of the narrow frame of self interest of some,  helps reduce parking issues, congestion issues, acts as a local economic multiplier.  Brisbane CBD is going backwards, high parking, empty office space and so on.  The public service cuts haven't helped either.

[#Metro]

As an aside, I caught a bus to the City last night, 3 zones. Paper ticket (card was empty, machine was not operational).

$6.70 one way. Return - $13.40

Absolutely not worth it. A taxi would be competitive at this rate.

[ozbob]

As an aside, I caught a bus to the City last night, 3 zones. Paper ticket (card was empty, machine was not operational).

$6.70 one way. Return - $13.40

Absolutely not worth it. A taxi would be competitive at this rate.

^ shocker!!  Time the Premier delivered!!    

[techblitz]

@ newbris

If that is still a concern then perhaps they should look at giving free travel to all tourists period on the network (now that we have the tourist gocard) Tourists are a relatively small percentage....But just imagine how much the 'image' of South East QLD would improve overseas if free travel network wide was implemented.

@ ozbob and LD

im wondering which river crossings your proposing as free?

Bulimba to tennerife?

[#Metro]

@ ozbob and LD

im wondering which river crossings your proposing as free?

ALL Monohull routes would be declared free. The CityCat would continue to charge. I may be wrong in my reasoning but I set it out this way:

Monohull trips are short and don't have easy substitutes (and therefore will not steal paying patronage from buses/citycats/trains). Many of these monohull ferries serve the same function as bridges - do we charge for walking across those? I regularly see the CityFerry empty with people waiting for the CityHopper (which is always full, even on weekends). 

This lack of substitutes also may suggest that the benefits to the public of a free service would be higher than the benefits to the public by charging (calculated from a public perspective) as many trips would otherwise not be made and many others would take a very long time to make using alternative means (walking the long way, car or bus the long way).

The CityCat should continue to charge because that is a premium service and there are alternatives (buses 412, 199, 300) and passenger cannibalisation is likely to occur if fares are set at zero. Some transfer would occur on the Bulimba-Tenneriffe section as that is overlapped by a CityCat service, however the frequency of the monohull is much higher.

[ozbob]

Holman Street to Thornton Street Cross River Ferry

Norman Park to New Farm Park Cross River Ferry

Bulimba to Teneriffe Cross River Ferry

[#Metro]

$6.70 one way. Return - $13.40

Given that the trip was about 40 minutes return, and the Minimum Wage is $16.30 or something like this, that works out to a charge of:

$13.40/40 minutes = ~ $20 per hour for this trip. With just two or three zone 3 paper ticket passengers on the bus, the bus driver's hourly wage (~$28/hour) would be paid off plus a bit extra. Given that wages are estimated about 80% of bus operating costs, where on earth is all this extra money going?!?!

Something doesn't make sense or is very wrong down at BT.

[#Metro]

I want to qualify my previous statement - if the ferry becomes so full that people are denied, a small charge could be re-introduced (say $1) to ensure capacity was available. However, the problem currently is that most ferries are carrying air so I doubt this will be a problem in the near or medium term future.

[techblitz]

I want to qualify my previous statement - if the ferry becomes so full that people are denied, a small charge could be re-introduced (say $1) to ensure capacity was available.

Yes!

city hopper currently has big issues with overcrowding @ peak which needs to be looked at. You've seen it and I have as well. Just wondering if they can keep track of the actual weight load on these older ferries....

$6.70 one way. Return - $13.40

Given that the trip was about 40 minutes return, and the Minimum Wage is $16.30 or something like this, that works out to a charge of:

$13.40/40 minutes = ~ $20 per hour for this trip. With just two zone 3 paper ticket passengers on the bus, the bus driver's hourly wage (~$28/hour) would be paid off plus a bit extra. Given that wages are estimated about 80% of bus operating costs, where on earth is all this extra money going?!?!

Something doesn't make sense or is very wrong down at BT.

to pay for all the lowly used hourly coverage routes 

while we do know that BCC and the lord mayor will never fully dislose the method to the madness, we can have fun guessing.
Sometimes i think  they are basing the structure proportionately to the cost of taxi fares. As long as taxi fares keep rising...perhaps they feel that its their given right to jack up PT fares.

[#Metro]

I think the capacity issues will be relieved somewhat by making the other monohull ferries free as well. Kangaroo Pt is a small area so there is a limit IMHO on how much PT people are going to consume there.

Cityhopper is only half hourly.

[techblitz]

so LD do you think the bulimba to tennerife crossing should be free?

[ozbob]

This is the TransLink Ferry Map

--> http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/network-information/maps/130101-ferry-network-map.pdf

[James]

As an inner city resident I would be happy to be on a more equal footing with those from the outer suburbs. My fares are approaching $1 per km which is "massively" higher than others and a huge disincentive pushing you into driving, specially as a family. I suspect we need the free hoppers to claw back some good will from the tourists after they have paid a bunch of 1 or 2 zone fares on other modes.

This requires a fare restructure rather than a free transit zone. I say Zone 1 tickets should be reduced to $2, and fares increase more per additional zone travelled.

I do not believe in making ferry trips free. CityHopper was very much a tourist-aimed/mobility thing rather than trying to boost PT usage. Remember, people living in the inner city are more likely to use PT due to its frequency, amenity and congestion. Making it free, while putting massive loads on PT, is not a good outcome. Often this is taking trips away from people cycling, walking, or just stimulating demand which would otherwise be untapped.

If there is a net benefit from catching the ferry vs. car, people will use the ferry.  Making it free just encouraged people to use the service over other services.

Given that the trip was about 40 minutes return, and the Minimum Wage is $16.30 or something like this, that works out to a charge of:

$13.40/40 minutes = ~ $20 per hour for this trip. With just two or three zone 3 paper ticket passengers on the bus, the bus driver's hourly wage (~$28/hour) would be paid off plus a bit extra. Given that wages are estimated about 80% of bus operating costs, where on earth is all this extra money going?!?!

Something doesn't make sense or is very wrong down at BT.

Already been said, but it is being spent on coverage routes, concessions, the increasing price of fuel and 9 then free. 9 then free is crazy, I am pretty sure every bus route in Brisbane bleeds money to no end thanks to this scheme. I see endless touch offs saying "$0.00", and I doubt they are all transfers.

On the note of taxis, I avoid them like the plague. I was in a part of the Centenary suburbs which is a PT black hole on Saturday, and had to end up getting a taxi. This trip (a bit over 10km) cost me about $35. Far too expensive.

[ozbob]

^ then 10 and free introduced by the former state government, simply trumped by the present state government as an electoral porky,  was one of the worst outcomes for public transport possible in SEQ IMHO ...  the failed fare structure has put back PT years ...

The Premier has indicated a new fare structure for SEQ would be rolled out  .. it is time.

[ozbob]

Making cross river ferries free would help ameliorate the overloading on the CityHopper, and make some more room on the CityCats too.  It is no big deal, most of the trips on them (cross river ferries) are probably transfers (continuations) any way ...

[techblitz]

Good thread
time for a poll!

[longboi]

So Perth, that has a much better fare box recovery, frequency and connections, vastly superior fare structure, has its Free Transit Zone http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/UsingTransperth/FreeTransperthServices.aspx.  Yes it must stand in the way of their overall fare strategy NOT ... it works as a further driver to use public transport.

Time we got out of our comfort zones of continuing mediocrity and failure.  It is time to be bold.  He who dares wins!

@STB we have had far too much myopia from TransLink et al thank you ...

You're comparing apples and oranges. Making ferries free is a fine idea but there is no relationship between doing so and achieving the same outcomes as Perth.

If we assume all other operating costs are constant, you make ferries free and suddenly those who use them (and those who currently use CityCat and opt for a free ferry) are no longer contributing revenue. Less revenue means there's more ground to cover in terms of finding means to increase affordability.
If BCC are willing to pay for the foregone revenue, then that's great. Do it. Otherwise funds will have to be redirected from elsewhere to make up for it.

You need to look at things that are actually going to SAVE money and REDUCE costs, while INCREASING farebox recovery. Increasing patronage has no bearing on this if it actually results in less revenue.

Put simply, you need to make bigger picture changes to get to the point Perth is at. In my mind, free ferries would perhaps be something that come after the savings to afford it are found elsewhere first.