Petition: Implement the 163 bus service in replacement of the P88

[ozbob]

http://www.change.org/petitions/brisbane-city-council-implement-the-163-bus-service-in-replacement-of-the-p88

Passengers were promised the P88 bus service would be replaced with a 163 peak service throughout the consultation period following the bus network review. This has not happened and as a result alternate buses are overcrowded, delayed and often too full to pick people up. A journey on the P88 was significantly quicker than on a 111 or 555 service at any time of the day. With the rising cost of public transport, we demand better services not worse. We want the 163, as promised, introduced immediately.

[#Metro]

I don't support this one at all. A time existed when there was no P88 bus at all. Secondly, there are heaps of alternative services to the CBD and along Coronation Drive. And finally, there's plenty of room on my personal chauffeured limousine Route 161.

alternate buses are overcrowded, delayed and often too full to pick people up

Buses through cultural centre in peak carry 50% air. This is inconsistent with the above statement.

[ozbob]

No doubt the P88 was wasted on the west, but did do some work the other side.

The P163 peak proposal was reasonable, and was to be monitored any way.   See what happens ...

[#Metro]

Why can't they catch 161? 161 also runs all day and also runs over the Captain Cook Bridge, even in peak. Route 161 has been modified to stop at Holland Pk, Greenslopes and Buranda as well and is functionally almost identical to P88/P163 busway section in peak.

Maybe I can take this golden opportunity to boost the frequency of personal home rockets to my house even more? 

[#Metro]

BUZ 161!! 

[ozbob]

BUZ 161!! 

Just leave the 524 alone!    This high frequency stuff interrupts my ' social times ' at the razzle dazzle .. 

[#Metro]

I fully expect extension of my rocket 161 direct into the RNA Showgrounds this year. Walk? Who me?? Banish the thought!

[Gazza]

Why not just send the 160 via CCB or something?

[Arnz]

BUZ 161!! 

BUZ and extend teh 314 to rocket into teh city!!!1111!!!!! 314 BUZ ROCKET   

[James]

I hate to say it, but 10 minute frequency for a non-express 161 would actually fulfil this role...

Why not just send the 160 via CCB or something?

I support this idea whole-heartedly. 160 is not a BUZ and all its stops are already serviced by via South Bank Routes (111/150). Chuck on additional services there, the 111/555 would not completely fill at 8MP.

Buses through cultural centre in peak carry 50% air. This is inconsistent with the above statement.

Not necessarily. Remember there is a slew of air parcels coming from the eastern suburbs, other routes which would never have standing loads like 107/108 and just general awful bus routes like the 172 and 115. It is why one part of the review I didn't like was a lot of BUZ routes going via CCB instead of Cultural Centre. I would not oppose sending a lot of non-BUZ routes (according to the current network) via CCB full time, simply because you inconvenience less people that way.

Regardless of the solution, any notion of the introduction of P163 should be burnt at the stake. The busway needs route simplification, not another route.

[SurfRail]

TransLink review would have fixed this with many more services using the CCB to get people to the city more quickly.

Sigh.

[AnonymouslyBad]

BCC shouldn't have lied in the first place. They clearly said the P163 would be done so why wasn't it? How is that acceptable?

That said... not a huge fan of this one. The P88 was removed due to duplication. Some would argue the service had no value, but any value it *did* have was largely in the cross-town trip (actually quite popular in peak). The 163 just removes that element and what are we left with? Yet another service which is a minor variation on a million others. Changing the 88 to the 163 doesn't fix duplication, it makes it worse.

If the direct link between Buranda and Roma St is important there's many other ways to implement this, by making (an) existing service(s) more direct and with better connections in the city. Naturally, I trust BCC to implement zero of them.

[#Metro]

They clearly said the P163 would be done so why wasn't it? How is that acceptable?

It went to heaven, along with 2000 daily express buses down Legacy Way 

[#Metro]

STOP PRESS!!

Route 163 will run as S163 - a segway service - with the busway converted into a giant segway track. That'll solve cultural centre congestion.

[James]

BCC shouldn't have lied in the first place. They clearly said the P163 would be done so why wasn't it? How is that acceptable?

The outcome of consultation was that it wasn't necessary. Look on the BCC website.

If the direct link between Buranda and Roma St is important there's many other ways to implement this, by making (an) existing service(s) more direct and with better connections in the city. Naturally, I trust BCC to implement zero of them.

A direct link already exists. It is the 111, 222 or heaven forbid, pax could also use the Cleveland Line. Passengers could walk to a variety of nearby stops as well (Maroon WasteGlider comes to mind). Yes, they are not "direct" as such, but I too would like to have a prepaid express version of my bus route which takes the fastest way in. Rail commuters do not get single seat connections, so why should bus commuters? That's right, we won't change! Hourly express bus from my house in suburban sprawl to the CBD! Give me a my house - CBD bus via everywhere I need to go!

[AnonymouslyBad]

A direct link already exists. It is the 111, 222 or heaven forbid, pax could also use the Cleveland Line. Passengers could walk to a variety of nearby stops as well (Maroon WasteGlider comes to mind). Yes, they are not "direct" as such, but I too would like to have a prepaid express version of my bus route which takes the fastest way in. Rail commuters do not get single seat connections, so why should bus commuters? That's right, we won't change! Hourly express bus from my house in suburban sprawl to the CBD! Give me a my house - CBD bus via everywhere I need to go!

I think you know full well what I meant

It's not so much that the 111 and 222 aren't the "fastest way in" - in an ideal world I'd avoid putting buses on the CCB altogether (legibility) but, uh, have you *seen* the Cultural Centre? Clearly they're not going to fix it so something's gotta give. We are not talking a couple of minutes anymore.

Anyway, as I said, the express part of the P88 doesn't in itself justify having a new route because there's so many others that can be tweaked to do the same thing. Are you *really* going to be mad if the 160 runs on the CCB? Or if a couple of the obscene number of rockets gets moved to Adelaide St? Of course not. And this is nothing to do with having your own personal chauffered express bus, we're generally not talking about walk ups in the first place, they've already transferred. This is to do with connectivity.

[James]

I think you know full well what I meant

It's not so much that the 111 and 222 aren't the "fastest way in" - in an ideal world I'd avoid putting buses on the CCB altogether (legibility) but, uh, have you *seen* the Cultural Centre? Clearly they're not going to fix it so something's gotta give. We are not talking a couple of minutes anymore.

Anyway, as I said, the express part of the P88 doesn't in itself justify having a new route because there's so many others that can be tweaked to do the same thing. Are you *really* going to be mad if the 160 runs on the CCB? Or if a couple of the obscene number of rockets gets moved to Adelaide St? Of course not. And this is nothing to do with having your own personal chauffered express bus, we're generally not talking about walk ups in the first place, they've already transferred. This is to do with connectivity.

Connectivity? The current network has rockets to everyone's doorstep, so most 'interchange' to speak of at Buranda is occurring between the 77, Eastern Busway (both to UQ and Carindale) and SE Busway. The only passengers I can see interchange at Roma Street helping are those seeking to change to rail (and not all passengers - there is South Bank interchange) and a few northside routes possibly.

I do agree with 160/161 increased frequency/via CCB for capacity management - I do not agree with proceeding to re-route it after arriving entering the QSBS portal. The route should continue to terminate at QSBS. Time saved in peak is due to Cultural Centre congestion and is more of a sign of a broken network than a faster routing. There is no need for a Buranda - Roma Street via CCB 'express' service. There is already rail, there is already Park Road near by, and if 160 goes via CCB, people can walk from QSBS. Is it that effing hard?

[AnonymouslyBad]

There is no need for a Buranda - Roma Street via CCB 'express' service. There is already rail, there is already Park Road near by, and if 160 goes via CCB, people can walk from QSBS. Is it that effing hard?

I wouldn't bother re-routing the 160 to Roma Street. But routes skipping Cultural Centre, core routes, do need to connect *somewhere*. Two city blocks and a couple of flights of stairs away isn't a connection, and the P88's own flow of passengers proves this. Or how disgustingly cut off from everything the 412 is. That thing needs to go to KGSBS *now*.

The 160 is borderline and I think it's OK at QSBS, something has to go there (unfortunately). But I also think more buses should skip South Bank entirely and still go to a "connected" place in the city, say Adelaide St. This: a) fixes Cultural Centre, b) saves valuable underground capacity, c) still allows easy connections with everything on the busways, and d) allows the busway spine to be far more legible.

[James]

I wouldn't bother re-routing the 160 to Roma Street. But routes skipping Cultural Centre, core routes, do need to connect *somewhere*. Two city blocks and a couple of flights of stairs away isn't a connection, and the P88's own flow of passengers proves this. Or how disgustingly cut off from everything the 412 is. That thing needs to go to KGSBS *now*.

The 160 is borderline and I think it's OK at QSBS, something has to go there (unfortunately). But I also think more buses should skip South Bank entirely and still go to a "connected" place in the city, say Adelaide St. This: a) fixes Cultural Centre, b) saves valuable underground capacity, c) still allows easy connections with everything on the busways, and d) allows the busway spine to be far more legible.

If a route is dumping people in the CBD, no, it doesn't need to connect. You want to connect from Buranda? There's other options. The P163 wasn't about connecting either - it was about capacity and dumping people in the CBD. And additional 160 services do that. If you really want rail connections - Central is less than 800m away. KGSBS even closer.

QSBS is just as close to Adelaide Street as KGSBS, especially if your bus stops all the way at the end of KGSBS. It saves QSBS capacity, but adds YET ANOTHER place you can board busway buses on and clogs up Adelaide Street as well. People may have to walk a bit in the city to get on the busway, boo hoo. From most places though this point is moot, a lot of services from the north go through RBWH, and Cultural Centre from the South.

[techblitz]

im quite happy with the current arrangement of core routes for single seat fans which I would put at:

KGBS to

Carindale 222
Garden City 111
Wooloongabba  MG/340

QSBS to

Carindale 200
Garden City 160/150
Gabba 100/200

So we have the major trip generating corridors taken care of from both stations.
I say keep this arrangement and work other routes around them.
The beauty of the 111`s and 160`s is that they use the artic buses a lot so getting a seat is pretty easy....even at peak.

The 66 change cant come quick enough to get MG performance on the up.

[#Metro]

I was on a bus heading down the busway today in peak and I saw a Maroon WasteGlider fly past almost EMPTY on the way to Wooloongabba!

[techblitz]

Yeah im noticing a lot of empty outbound 66`s and MG`s east of CC...around 6pmish which should not be happening as its still considered peak hour.
They bit the bullet with the p88 so I think it mite be time to put that 340 back to a CC finish.
Problem is that the gabba is such a sweet spot for turning the buses around and parking up for breaks etc.

So we have p88 pax who have been inconvenienced by having to go the long way 
I don't see how gabba residents from roma st/KGBS need this CCB express trip either.
This will guarantee a LOT of MGlider passengers at peak....trade-off being more 340 buses through the CC precint.

[AnonymouslyBad]

If a route is dumping people in the CBD, no, it doesn't need to connect. You want to connect from Buranda? There's other options. The P163 wasn't about connecting either - it was about capacity and dumping people in the CBD. And additional 160 services do that. If you really want rail connections - Central is less than 800m away. KGSBS even closer.

What other options? That are actually going to be attractive to a peak hour commuter? The 111-222-333-444 routes are clearly designed for connectivity, but my point is that more routes need to be. The 111-222-333-444 alone are not frequent enough to make this viable. The P163 was about connectivity because there's already tons of buses on the busway - but people would wait for the 163 (if it were just introduced as is).

800m is not an acceptable walk for a transfer, come on. That's 10 minutes. QSBS A to KGSBS is also upwards of five minutes. That's fine for a walk-up but not a transfer. Transfers are supposed to be made simple which is why we have KGSBS-Roma St in the first place. "Dumping people in the city" would be OK if we had a much better laid out network of city stops, but we don't and we won't as long as BCC keeps doing what they're doing. Transfer opportunities are split between multiple stops, nowhere near each other, also splitting the wait times, and these stops may or may not be close to where you get off your bus into the city. Calling that "connectivity" is insane.
Expecting people to transfer outside the CBD is also fine in theory, and we used to do that with Cultural Centre. But that rule was abandoned some years ago and we now need to take ~20% of buses out of there. The only other option for the rest of them is somewhere in the CBD (or beyond, but that requires KGSBS or Adelaide St anyway).

My point about Adelaide St was that it's very close to KGSBS, they are essentially colocated but on different levels. Combined they have a high capacity and it is the only place in the CBD - full stop -  that facilitates easy, frequent connections. Both Adelaide St City Hall and KGSBS also have rail connections at their next stop northbound. From a whole of network perspective, any routes people are likely to transfer from/to should be in there, not QSBS which is an antiquated dead end.

tl;dr: all the BUZes should be using a common spine anyway.

[techblitz]

they prolly should have just went with it...we know it would have done very well from 4-6 and potentially even 3-7.

Keep in mind....111`s would have had a lot less patronage as the result. BT probably felt that the 111 needs more patronage.

That being said...they asked for feedback on the changes and people fired in protests for the  Belmont routes etc....no protests as such for the p88 because peak commuters were told that the service would be replaced.
Sneaky is the only word to describe it....

[AnonymouslyBad]

Yeah im noticing a lot of empty outbound 66`s and MG`s east of CC...around 6pmish which should not be happening as its still considered peak hour.
They bit the bullet with the p88 so I think it mite be time to put that 340 back to a CC finish.
Problem is that the gabba is such a sweet spot for turning the buses around and parking up for breaks etc.

So we have p88 pax who have been inconvenienced by having to go the long way 
I don't see how gabba residents from roma st/KGBS need this CCB express trip either.
This will guarantee a LOT of MGlider passengers at peak....trade-off being more 340 buses through the CC precint.

Well, the 66 is going to be removed (amalgamated with the 109) so that will leave a few passengers looking for a new bus. Though the 66 has always been an air parcel east of CC. I think the MG will always be, too

Don't worry, I don't think Gabba passengers are so attached to the CCB that they wait around for the 340. They just catch whatever comes first. So I agree there's no point in having the 340 run CCB.
Then again I'm the type to say the BUZes should all be using Cultural Centre, and move some other routes to the CCB to allow that. Hey, those all stoppers need *something* For the 340, there's only one reason it's CCB afaik, which is because there's no capacity on the busway anymore. Ironically that's also the only reason the CCB is so much quicker to start with
Vicious cycle! Just fix it... and we won't need to be having any of these discussions...

[James]

What other options? That are actually going to be attractive to a peak hour commuter? The 111-222-333-444 routes are clearly designed for connectivity, but my point is that more routes need to be. The 111-222-333-444 alone are not frequent enough to make this viable. The P163 was about connectivity because there's already tons of buses on the busway - but people would wait for the 163 (if it were just introduced as is).

Options from Buranda to Roma Street:
111 (BUZ frequency)
222 (BUZ frequency)
Cleveland Line (2tph, 4tph+ in peak)
Nearby options to Roma Street:
~650m away: MaroonGlider (BUZ frequency, 24/7 on weekends)
~700m away: 66/109 UniGlider (once bus review comes in)

The 111 runs at 5 minute frequency and the 222 runs at 10 minute frequency in peak. The issue of connectivity is a non-issue. A trip via CCB would not save much time either.

800m is not an acceptable walk for a transfer, come on. That's 10 minutes. QSBS A to KGSBS is also upwards of five minutes. That's fine for a walk-up but not a transfer. Transfers are supposed to be made simple which is why we have KGSBS-Roma St in the first place. "Dumping people in the city" would be OK if we had a much better laid out network of city stops, but we don't and we won't as long as BCC keeps doing what they're doing. Transfer opportunities are split between multiple stops, nowhere near each other, also splitting the wait times, and these stops may or may not be close to where you get off your bus into the city. Calling that "connectivity" is insane.
Expecting people to transfer outside the CBD is also fine in theory, and we used to do that with Cultural Centre. But that rule was abandoned some years ago and we now need to take ~20% of buses out of there. The only other option for the rest of them is somewhere in the CBD (or beyond, but that requires KGSBS or Adelaide St anyway).

But the option is there. Ideally, people wouldn't use it as a lot of users would be attracted to the (faster) via CCB 160, leaving space for Roma Street 111/222 connections, and making the 160 the express route with limited additional connectivity for CBD-bound passengers. The 160 connective option is there, it just isn't ideal - you're making out QSBS to be like it is a remote stop away from the main hub.

Also: Cultural Centre isn't "outside the CBD" at all. It is in the core section, and still has capacity issues. The rest of your points I've covered here.

Yeah im noticing a lot of empty outbound 66`s and MG`s east of CC...around 6pmish which should not be happening as its still considered peak hour.
They bit the bullet with the p88 so I think it mite be time to put that 340 back to a CC finish.
Problem is that the gabba is such a sweet spot for turning the buses around and parking up for breaks etc.

So we have p88 pax who have been inconvenienced by having to go the long way 
I don't see how gabba residents from roma st/KGBS need this CCB express trip either.
This will guarantee a LOT of MGlider passengers at peak....trade-off being more 340 buses through the CC precint.

Once the 66 gets re-routed I believe everything will be well. 340 should remain there - Cultural Centre does not have the capacity (unless we start routing some other Wooloongabba buses via CCB). MaroonGlider is just generally an awful route, and 340 is terminating at Wooloongabba. Personally I think these should more exist for connectivity reasons (as Wooloongabba is off the trunk corridor) rather than seeking to have buses leaving with standing loads.

Ideally no 300/400 series buses would proceed over the river. It isn't necessary. People can walk from KGSBS to QSBS. In fact the bus review said this, and it was a very sound idea. Far sounder than the stop mess we have now. (Which won't be solved for a long time as BCC is incompetent and cannot run a bus network).

[AnonymouslyBad]

Ideally no 300/400 series buses would proceed over the river. It isn't necessary. People can walk from KGSBS to QSBS. In fact the bus review said this, and it was a very sound idea. Far sounder than the stop mess we have now. (Which won't be solved for a long time as BCC is incompetent and cannot run a bus network).

I somewhat agree with this. (gasp!) Ideally I would still keep a common corridor but given the realities of our city stops and all their different quirks this may be the best solution that still retains some sense. For the core routes, anyway.

The only issue is that, as I understand it, while KGSBS has a turnaround it's of very limited capacity - it can't handle too many terminations and certainly not to the extent Roma St and Cultural Centre (Grey St) can. It just wasn't designed that way, and at the least terminations take up extra capacity when KGSBS slots are pretty precious as is. Given a choice, I'd want to use that station to its fullest - but then the QSBS tunnel wasn't designed to service a new busway either, and that station would benefit. I guess you can't have everything.

Of course, IMO you would still need some through running routes. But these routes only need to go far enough out to perform their obvious functions (short cross-river trips, people wanting to transfer on busway), and can be the clearly defined cross towners (109, Gliders, etc.) rather than the suburban haulers.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd like to see one 300 route go across the river but then again I want to see the 111+333 merged into a single pre paid route, far more services terminated at interchanges/busway stations and buslanes along Gympie Road so longer capacity buses can be utilised along with the added benefit of a direct interchange route/bus utilisation/ease of use/promotion and marketing (similar to CityGlider).

It could be run every 5-10 mins during the day as a turn up and go service with higher capacity buses but for that to pay off the whole network really needs to be set up with feeder networks.