Bus link Toowong - West End

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> 'No sense' in Toowong-West End bus link, councillor says

A bus link between Toowong and West End proposed in a draft council planning strategy has been slammed by the local Labor councillor.

Councillor Helen Abrahams from the Gabba Ward said the green bridge outlined in the Draft River Edge Strategy made "no sense".

But Cr Abrahams said the bridge would be a good idea if it was open only to bike and pedestrian traffic ...

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/no-sense-in-toowongwest-end-bus-link-councillor-says-20130630-2p54b.html#ixzz2XjZceg2x

[ozbob]

Related ...

Brisbanetimes --> Tell him he's 'dreaming': mayor's bold bridge plan dismissed

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 5m

Legacy Way bus failure compounded ... http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7798.0 ... @brisbanetimes @katherinefeeney

[#Metro]

I think we should continue to call for the removal of all PT from the BCC - buses and ferries. The local politics is too much.
They just cannot see beyond their handkerchief ward boundaries.

I disagree with Cr Abrahams. I have previously been a resident of Hill End and I can tell you that it would be so much more convenient if there were a bridge over the river to Toowong that allowed buses to be put on it. It would also have the opportunity for new cross town bus services (Carindale - West End - Toowong/Indooroopilly).

Toowong is a major shopping centre. To get there currently you have to get a bus to the ferry, wait for the ferry, get off at the ferry stop, walk. With a bridge the bus would take you over there. And there local road network is nowhere near at capacity. If built right it could also support light rail through West End, via Montague Road, an excellent terminus point at Toowong.

Green Bridge projects are something that BCC actually does really well. It is an excellent pioneering concept. There should be more of them, including one at Riverhills-Bellbowrie.

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/prdc/groups/corpwebcontent/documents/documents/066637.pdf

[#Metro]

Maybe we can get the Sydney Monorail to go from West End to Toowong   

[#Metro]

Brisbanetimes --> Tell him he's 'dreaming': mayor's bold bridge plan dismissed

Brisbane City Council plans to pay for the feasibility study and intends to ask the state government and the federal government to pay for the $2.5 billion project, with a start date of about  2018.

brisbanetimes.com.au has been given a "ball park" cost of $2 billion to $3 billion, with planners hoping to start construction in 2018.

"The queues in the busway tunnel will continue to grow from South Bank to Mater Hill station and then to Woolloongabba, creating complete gridlock with buses unable to enter the CBD.

"During the outbound peak we are already seeing buses queuing on the Victoria Bridge with nowhere to go."

For 2-3 billion we could do a metro tunnel in the CBD and perhaps a short section of converted busway. The immediate concern though is to get buses out of the CBD by accepting the TransLink bus review recommendations, feeding CRR at Wooloongabba and getting better loadings on buses.

[ozbob]

Oh dear, bus reviews failure is going to bite hard ...  how honest is the Government?

Interesting days ...

[Derwan]

What do people think about the idea of closing Victoria Bridge to standard traffic and expanding the Cultural Centre bus station?

A couple of people have suggested this in comments on the story.

[James]

I think we should continue to call for the removal of all PT from the BCC - buses and ferries. The local politics is too much.
They just cannot see beyond their handkerchief ward boundaries.

I disagree with Cr Abrahams. I have previously been a resident of Hill End and I can tell you that it would be so much more convenient if there were a bridge over the river to Toowong that allowed buses to be put on it. It would also have the opportunity for new cross town bus services (Carindale - West End - Toowong/Indooroopilly).

Toowong is a major shopping centre. To get there currently you have to get a bus to the ferry, wait for the ferry, get off at the ferry stop, walk. With a bridge the bus would take you over there. And there local road network is nowhere near at capacity. If built right it could also support light rail through West End, via Montague Road, an excellent terminus point at Toowong.

Green Bridge projects are something that BCC actually does really well. It is an excellent pioneering concept. There should be more of them, including one at Riverhills-Bellbowrie.

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/prdc/groups/corpwebcontent/documents/documents/066637.pdf

I am far from sold on the West End - Toowong bridge. In terms of cross-town links, I think it would be far better to tunnel under UQ (you wouldn't need to dive too far thanks to the steep hill after UQ/lack of underground development) and eventually link up with Indooroopilly - that is, if you saw the need for it.

If the Toowong - Buranda tunnel (the final, forgotten piece of Newman's tunnels/TransApex) was canned due to low forecast traffic, I really do not see much of a market for any bus bridge between the two river rail crossings (Merivale and Albert bridges) aside from the Eleanor Schonell Bridge (which doesn't serve much of a cross-town function).

Three other big bus access reasons:
1. Most buses (if we stop this "all buses to the CBD" mentality) terminate at Indro. You're asking people to change at Indro and then change at Toowong. Already not attractive.
2. West End does not have any roads which allow for fast access out of the area. Any bus crossing the bridge then has to go slowly through West End. By comparison, as long as Coronation Drive is not doing poorly, the only time being lost when it comes to cross-town functions is the transfer time due to there being no direct Toowong - Carindale option (for example).
3. To many cross-town destinations, there are already many single-transfer options available. There is also the via UQ Chancellors Place/UQ Lakes option.

I only really see this bridge being useful to West End and Toowong local residents, and really not doing much more aside from that. If it were to be used to avoid Coronation Drive traffic, all its doing is taking buses from Coro Dr and dumping them into West End and on to the congested SE Busway. Not a solution. A Green Bridge in my book has to prove its benefits beyond the immediate area. UQ proved its benefits as it allowed students going to the City to avoid congestion, improved reliability and better connections to the Southside, making PT faster than going to UQ and parking.

The price tag is also a big thing. I think it'd be more cost effective just to build a metro or extend the eastern busway to Indooroopilly. Then the UQ - Indro buses get a faster trip too.

[Derwan]

The question has now been asked on Facebook. Add your response:

http://www.facebook.com/questions/661539583860232/

[Gazza]

I think we should continue to call for the removal of all PT from the BCC - buses and ferries. The local politics is too much.
They just cannot see beyond their handkerchief ward boundaries.

I disagree with Cr Abrahams. I have previously been a resident of Hill End and I can tell you that it would be so much more convenient if there were a bridge over the river to Toowong that allowed buses to be put on it. It would also have the opportunity for new cross town bus services (Carindale - West End - Toowong/Indooroopilly).

Toowong is a major shopping centre. To get there currently you have to get a bus to the ferry, wait for the ferry, get off at the ferry stop, walk. With a bridge the bus would take you over there. And there local road network is nowhere near at capacity. If built right it could also support light rail through West End, via Montague Road, an excellent terminus point at Toowong.

Green Bridge projects are something that BCC actually does really well. It is an excellent pioneering concept. There should be more of them, including one at Riverhills-Bellbowrie.

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/prdc/groups/corpwebcontent/documents/documents/066637.pdf

Why do we need to spend money on a concrete fiesta so West End residents can shop at Toowong?Why cant they shop at the Myer Centre or Wewt End Coles?

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think we should continue to call for the removal of all PT from the BCC - buses and ferries. The local politics is too much.
They just cannot see beyond their handkerchief ward boundaries.

I disagree with Cr Abrahams. I have previously been a resident of Hill End and I can tell you that it would be so much more convenient if there were a bridge over the river to Toowong that allowed buses to be put on it. It would also have the opportunity for new cross town bus services (Carindale - West End - Toowong/Indooroopilly).

Toowong is a major shopping centre. To get there currently you have to get a bus to the ferry, wait for the ferry, get off at the ferry stop, walk. With a bridge the bus would take you over there. And there local road network is nowhere near at capacity. If built right it could also support light rail through West End, via Montague Road, an excellent terminus point at Toowong.

Green Bridge projects are something that BCC actually does really well. It is an excellent pioneering concept. There should be more of them, including one at Riverhills-Bellbowrie.

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/prdc/groups/corpwebcontent/documents/documents/066637.pdf

Why do we need to spend money on a concrete fiesta so West End residents can shop at Toowong?Why cant they shop at the Myer Centre or Wewt End Coles?

[Gazza]

Green Bridge projects are something that BCC actually does really well

ProjectS?
What other green bridge projects have they done?  :conf

They've built one, and it connected a major university campus/2nd largest trip generator in SEQ to the rest of the city with a bus every few mins...Of course it was going to be a success in that situation.
But I don't see how that it is a proof of concept for other parts of the city, or why a West End > David Jones Toowong express is a good use of money?

It would also have the opportunity for new cross town bus services (Carindale - West End - Toowong/Indooroopilly).

Wake me up when we've got the current and 'obvious' cross town bus services right before worrying about new ones though.

I'm a bit unclear about what a Carindale-West End bus would do anyway? You can get from Carindale to West End via a 5 minute change at Cultural Centre right?

I only really see this bridge being useful to West End and Toowong local residents, and really not doing much more aside from that.

This, in which case it would be cheaper to just run a more frequent cross river ferry than build a bridge.

[SurfRail]

I don't have an issue with this concept.  It maximises connectivity and the network effect, and will make a stronger case for more frequent 199s / Citygliders and ultimately light rail.  I don't see any other services using it unless there is something to replace the 192 through Highgate Hill.

It isn't a high priority but I would be happy to see it proceed.

Conversion of the Victoria Bridge to bus only isn't required.  The problems there stem from pushing too many buses through because of the network design.  You could accommodate the patronage on fewer buses and get other people to go over the CCB if they are mainly going to the CBD.

[Gazza]

^I think if we are looking to benefit bus services, then both a Bellbowrie  (Sumner Rd) Green Bridge and a Bulimba (Oxford St) Green Bridge both should sit higher on the list, because they do a lot more for connectivity.
In the case of Bellbowrie, it means 444s would go into town via the populated Centenary Suburbs rather than the cows and horses of Pinjarra Hills
In the case of Bulimba the CityGlider would just be extended to Bulimba, and you get real time savings compared to the 230 going via the Gabba.

[SurfRail]

^I think if we are looking to benefit bus services, then both a Bellbowrie  (Sumner Rd) Green Bridge and a Bulimba (Oxford St) Green Bridge both should sit higher on the list, because they do a lot more for connectivity.
In the case of Bellbowrie, it means 444s would go into town via the populated Centenary Suburbs rather than the cows and horses of Pinjarra Hills
In the case of Bulimba the CityGlider would just be extended to Bulimba, and you get real time savings compared to the 230 going via the Gabba.

I think I posted my preferred sites for green bridges over at SSC, but here they are again in geographical order heading towards the Bay:

- Bellbowrie to Riverhills (combine Moggill and Riverhills frequent services)
- Toowong to West End (extend 199 and Cityglider to Toowong)
- New Farm Park to Norman Park (redesign 196 and extend to Morningside)
- Teneriffe to Bulimba (extend 199 and Cityglider to Bulimba)
- Bulimba to Hamilton (extend services to Hamilton Northshore/Racecourse Road)

In terms of decreasing importance as I see it:
- Bellbowrie to Riverhills
- Teneriffe to Bulimba
- Toowong to West End
- New Farm Park to Norman Park
- Bulimba to Hamilton

[#Metro]

I think I posted my preferred sites for green bridges over at SSC, but here they are again in geographical order heading towards the Bay:

- Bellbowrie to Riverhills (combine Moggill and Riverhills frequent services)
- Toowong to West End (extend 199 and Cityglider to Toowong)
- New Farm Park to Norman Park (redesign 196 and extend to Morningside)
- Teneriffe to Bulimba (extend 199 and Cityglider to Bulimba)
- Bulimba to Hamilton (extend services to Hamilton Northshore/Racecourse Road)

What are the chances there will just become all tunnels  with  2000 daily express buses on them all     

[Golliwog]

My question on a Toowong-West End link (similar to some other views here: not opposed, but it's far from top of the priority list) is would you shift the routes that currently run via Coronation Drive and the Go Between bridge to run via this new bridge and West End? How does Coro Dr traffic compare to West End traffic?

But if they're talking about stumping up $2-3B for this or the bus link or whatever, tell 'em they're dreaming and put that money straight in to funding half of CRR. Redesigning the bus network around transferring to rail and a smaller number of core routes would do much more to reduce CC congestion than a bus only bridge/tunnel/whatever.

[James]

My question on a Toowong-West End link (similar to some other views here: not opposed, but it's far from top of the priority list) is would you shift the routes that currently run via Coronation Drive and the Go Between bridge to run via this new bridge and West End? How does Coro Dr traffic compare to West End traffic?

If we continued with the current madness of 24 buses per hour running down Coronation Drive (that is, continue under BCC's flaw network), there would probably be cause to shift routes via West End due to the sheer number of routes running down Coronation Drive, and the fact the road is already quite congested. However, a proper network would feed >60% of those buses to rail (keeping the rest for local access), meaning users would get a quicker trip to the CBD than they would regardless of the route their bus took.

In peak, Coro Drive is slower vs. via West End, but Cultural Centre would be a big issue. Off-peak, they'd both take just as long. Off-peak the bridge would be empty because there would be no advantage to routing the buses via West End and it would duplicate pre-existing routes (199/CityGlider). I also think we could end up with the Northern Busway situation - the alternative routing would save time, but getting on/off Coro Drive would take a while.

If we really want cross-river service, just operate a cross-river ferry to boost frequency, and then make the Regatta stop an express stop. I am not convinced there is demand high enough for this new bridge, nor do I believe it has enough utility.

I think the next green bridge should go to Bulimba. Bellbowrie's primary justification is that there is already a high frequency service out there. Bulimba has high density and a lot of demand, not to mention pre-existing ferry services.

[johnnigh]

I think the next green bridge should go to Bulimba. Bellbowrie's primary justification is that there is already a high frequency service out there. Bulimba has high density and a lot of demand, not to mention pre-existing ferry services.

Agree strongly. A Teneriffe-Bulimba link also serves currently repressed demand for bicycle cross-river access between Goodwill Bridge and Gateway. Current cycle routes from the near East (Bulimba eastwards, north of Old Clevo) deteriorate to dangerous between Lourdes Hill and the city. Council has tried to get away with cheap solutions including footpath cycleways (which have resulted in some bad accidents between cycles and cars disgorging from their front yards). Recently, BCC, TMR (and explicitly Translink) have refused to offer free ferry crossing for cycles between Bulimba and Teneriffe, arguing that footpaths on Lytton Rd are adequate. Consequently, unsafe conditions deter cycling from these suburbs. And as they also lack decent bus services, motor traffic persists with a higher mode share than from the south or west.

The CBDBUG, along with EastBUG, will continue to lobby for both long term and short term solutions to this problem.

[#Metro]

Perhaps that New Farm - Norman Park ferry should be the next added to the City Hopper ferry system.

[Gazza]

IMO all cross river ferries should be free, since those suburbs dont benefit from free footbridges.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Funds dry up for cross-river bridges

[Jonno]

Brisbanetimes --> Funds dry up for cross-river bridges

Blinkers On!!! Build More Roads! No funding left for other transport modes & more congestion! Wake Up Australia!!

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane City Council to fund Kangaroo Point to CBD bridge

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> Buck stops plans for new Brisbane cross river bridges