2014 fares

[Stillwater]

Even tap-dancing whales can come to a sticky end.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I won't be surprised if in 2014 when patronage drops they'll cancel UBAT and scale back frequencies/spans. 

HA! It's not like it can get any worse for me. But then again catching my local bus is becoming more and more rare for me these days.

[#Metro]

Everybody is talking about the high fare costs. It's simmering like you would not believe across dinner tables and on services all over SEQ. Just last week I was on a train and overheard two ladies having a whinge about the fare costs - one had left her go card in hospital with her partner, and had to buy a paper ticket and almost died at the cost explosion.

Make no mistake, the whole thing is primed to really go off with the explosive fare costs. BCC is no small player in all of this - failure to reform the bus network means more money is being spent which is driving the costs through the roof.

[James]

I think the big issue is that nobody touches PT in SEQ any more. I have a number of relatives, and most of them haven't touched a bus (or go card) in years. They look at me hopping on and off buses and trains like I'm hiking Mount Everest... One in particular drives to QUT, despite having a BUZ to Mater Hill outside his house. And those who use the buses only use them in peak hour - and their attitude is "Stuff span of hours and frequency in the off-peak, I don't use it then so I don't care!"

I believe that somewhere in government, there was a push for serious fare reform. But with BCC and its anti-transfer high-waste direct services network, the PT network cannot change for the better. Trains, as they operate now, should just be canned off-peak and run as buses within the Brisbane area. They are not supported by buses and are operated like glorified half-hourly bus routes. Buses need to feed trains, and as seen by BUZ, I am very sure if you implemented decent frequent services (like my own review), you could see patronage on the system double - possibly even triple. The network is broken, and you aren't going to attract people back simply by lowering fares.

Fares also need to come down. Increasing them has just eroded the fare box, and Emerson can't see it, despite having a bloody degree in Economics. Decrease the flagfall by $1 after the most recent fare increase is probably the best way to do it, with 8 and 50% instead of '9 then free' to prevent this rorting of the system which is occurring by long-distance commuters. Of course GC commuters will whinge, tough bikkies, perhaps you should try living less than 60km from your place of work...

Reducing the span/frequency of the PT network is not an answer to the problem in most cases. And it's not going to be BUZ which bears the brunt of these cuts - it will be peak hour services and major secondary routes (i.e. the non-hourly routes). There is only so far the government can go before congestion starts biting and growth goes elsewhere, especially in Brisbane. If the BUM gets canned, within 5 years transit meltdown (Sydney style) will be a daily occurrence. At least we aren't as bad as Sydney, where in peak it can take 5-10x as long to travel the same distance as in the off-peak. I fear it isn't far away if PT isn't urgently reformed though. Coronation Drive is already getting worse...

[ozbob]

It is interesting to look at Qconnect fares.  They are around the right level IMHO.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/travel-and-transport/qconnect/urban-bus-services.aspx

I wonder what the increase will be for them? It is usually been just CPI over the years ...

I have saved the page so will be able to compare ..

[ozbob]

Everybody is talking about the high fare costs. It's simmering like you would not believe across dinner tables and on services all over SEQ. Just last week I was on a train and overheard two ladies having a whinge about the fare costs - one had left her go card in hospital with her partner, and had to buy a paper ticket and almost died at the cost explosion.

Make no mistake, the whole thing is primed to really go off with the explosive fare costs. BCC is no small player in all of this - failure to reform the bus network means more money is being spent which is driving the costs through the roof.

Yes, there are real concerns in the community ..  simply will not buy the line only half the ALPs projected increase .. there is no guarantee that ALP would have continued with the fare fail in reality.  7.5% is around 3 times CPI.  People are reeling ..

[ozbob]

...

I believe that somewhere in government, there was a push for serious fare reform. But with BCC and its anti-transfer high-waste direct services network, the PT network cannot change for the better. Trains, as they operate now, should just be canned off-peak and run as buses within the Brisbane area. They are not supported by buses and are operated like glorified half-hourly bus routes. Buses need to feed trains, and as seen by BUZ, I am very sure if you implemented decent frequent services (like my own review), you could see patronage on the system double - possibly even triple. The network is broken, and you aren't going to attract people back simply by lowering fares.

Fares also need to come down. Increasing them has just eroded the fare box, and Emerson can't see it, despite having a bloody degree in Economics. Decrease the flagfall by $1 after the most recent fare increase is probably the best way to do it, with 8 and 50% instead of '9 then free' to prevent this rorting of the system which is occurring by long-distance commuters. Of course GC commuters will whinge, tough bikkies, perhaps you should try living less than 60km from your place of work...

Reducing the span/frequency of the PT network is not an answer to the problem in most cases. And it's not going to be BUZ which bears the brunt of these cuts - it will be peak hour services and major secondary routes (i.e. the non-hourly routes). There is only so far the government can go before congestion starts biting and growth goes elsewhere, especially in Brisbane. If the BUM gets canned, within 5 years transit meltdown (Sydney style) will be a daily occurrence. At least we aren't as bad as Sydney, where in peak it can take 5-10x as long to travel the same distance as in the off-peak. I fear it isn't far away if PT isn't urgently reformed though. Coronation Drive is already getting worse...

Some good comments there James.  Yes, there was a review of fares conducted by TransLink in 2013, but again it was mainly direct cost modelling without proper consideration of the big picture. And I agree with the premise that the free after x journeys needs to be junked and reverted back to 50%.  After 8 paid journeys is good as the M-F commute will remain the same.  Some people will maximise early weekly journeys but at least there is a fare still coming in.  This was the fare system I thought we were getting but the free after 10 raised its ugly head, easily trumped by the LNP.  ALP really botched it.  Sydney is mad going down the same path as well. Crazy ...

Flagfall is way too high.  Qconnect fares are a good measure.

There are the frequency increases on rail from 20 Jan 2014, but again not really supported that well by buses as appropriate.

My own view is that the 5 year fare path was a deliberate strategy to stunt patronage growth, clearly.  This view has been formed over a number of years based on comments made by various individuals at meetings and so forth.  It is the sum of all those comments.  I believe I am correct.

[ozbob]

When the go card system was purchased, they went for a very limited software scope.  The bizarre fare system is a function of that as well.

It also costs a motza to make changes ...   

Governments get done over with smart card stuff.  Melbourne's myki is another, and even Sydney is falling for Opal myths ...

Perth has a very effective fare system on the smartrider.   Presently not possible to do the same on the go card as it is now.   That's how flawed it all is ..

[#Metro]

The latest changes are in full agreement and prediction of the 'Death Spiral' theory. Nothing is actually changing, just more filibustering and Octopus Ink to avoid fixing the proper problem - the BT Bus network which is the source of the cost explosions.

You can predict these things in advance very reliably. The latest 'off peak extension from 8.30 am' is just a manifestation of the gimmicks / band aid side of the triangle.

SO PREDICTABLE!!

[ozbob]

Letter to the editor Queensland Times 23rd December 2013 page 9

Significant year in prospect for public transport changes

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

23rd December 2013

Re: SEQ: All we want for Christmas is a new fare system!

Greetings,

Time the spiral was stopped?



http://backontrack.org/images/tl/farespiral.jpg

Context --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10048.msg136544#msg136544

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Media release 15th December 2013



SEQ: All we want for Christmas is a new fare system!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said the five year path commenced in 2010 and culminating with another fare hike many times CPI from 6th January 2014 has failed (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The five year high cost fare path was ostensibly designed to arrest the fare box slide.  It is has failed to do that because the massive fare increases have lead to patronage stagnation, despite many increases in service kilometres for bus and rail."

"During 2013 the fare fail has been further compounded by the failed bus reviews. All bus regions now are having route, frequency and span of hours cuts inflicted upon them, principally to support the failed bus direct service model fixated on by Brisbane City Council."

"From 6th January 2014 a one zone single adult paper ticket will cost $5.20! Go card fares are little bit more affordable relative to paper."

"The entire premise of the present failed fare system though is wide open to active rorting.  This in turn is leading to an increasing culture of fare evasion sadly."

"It is time to say enough! A new fare system must now be a priority.  Looming election deadlines no doubt will help achieve an outcome that leads to a balanced, fair, comprehensive fare system that gets people onto public transport around the clock.  A fare system that has sensible fares for the first journey in a week as well the 20th journey in week."

"Will Santa deliver?"

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10048.msg135994#msg135994

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10048.msg135922#msg135922

Contact:

Robert Dow
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[Stillwater]

One of the consequences of the new January 2014 fares is that it is dearer for someone to buy a paper ticket for the Gympielander Citytrain service Gympie-Brisbane ($30.40) than it is for them to buy a seat on the Tilt Train for the Gympie-Brisbane journey ($30).

[ozbob]

^ LOL  ...

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/2014-world-fare-comparison-part-1.html
The BrizCommuter world fare comparison 2014 - part 1 is now available.

[ozbob]

^ thanks Briz ... it is not a good look for SEQ ... 

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

28th December 2013

The big failures in SEQ for PT ...

Greetings,

Yes, another 7.5% fare increase for SEQ from 6 January 2014.  This now means since 2010 compound (real increase) fare increases 83% for go card, 114% for paper.

Melbourne for example, is increasing their fares 2.5% for 2014.

2010  go card fares increased 20%, paper 40%

2011  fares increased 15%

2012  fares increased 15%

2013  fares increased 7.5%

2014  fare increase 7.5%

CPI for this period  around 10%

This is the fundamental reason why fare affordability is the stand-out failure for the KPIs  http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/open-data/2013-sep-snapshot.pdf

So much for sensible fare policy for SEQ. My view is that the 5 year fare path was a deliberate strategy to stunt patronage growth, clearly.  This view has been formed over a number of years based on my observations and on comments made by various individuals at meetings and so forth.  It is the sum of all those comments.  I believe I am correct.  The evidence is clear.

Qconnect fares are around half the fare rip-off in SEQ ( http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/qconnect/Urban-bus-services.aspx ).  Qconnect fares have generally increased only by CPI since 2010.

The other issue is the nature of the flawed fare system in SEQ.  Easily rorted (with more fare box leakage), it is further driving fare evasion.  Anecdotal reports of more and more people failing to touch off are increasing.  It beggars belief to think these people all have obscenely priced and very limited paper single tickets.

The bus review and fare review failures for SEQ are the stand-out issues for public transport in SEQ that can be sorted easily.  A proactive Government would be fixing them, not carrying on with the failed paradigm.

All the best and good luck for 2014.  We are going to need it  ...  $5.20 for a ONE ZONE paper ticket!!!  ( http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/fares-and-ticketing-2014 )

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[longboi]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

[BrizCommuter]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

It may be like apples and oranges, but it has to be remembered that bus fares are the same as train fares in SEQ. Many cities such as Sydney, London, other UK cities, and nearly all Asian cities charge less for trips by bus than with train. SE Queenslanders are paying premium fares for a somewhat less premium form of transport. There are also plenty of locations in SEQ with a worse bus service than in QConnect areas.

[STB]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

It may be like apples and oranges, but it has to be remembered that bus fares are the same as train fares in SEQ. Many cities such as Sydney, London, other UK cities, and nearly all Asian cities charge less for trips by bus than with train. SE Queenslanders are paying premium fares for a somewhat less premium form of transport. There are also plenty of locations in SEQ with a worse bus service than in QConnect areas.

That's because in SEQ, you pay for zones, not for the mode of travel, hence the idea of an integrated ticketing system.

[SurfRail]

Limited investment and funding didn't stop major network upgrades happening in Townsville and Cairns in the last few years.

There is no impetus for improvement coming from the top ranks - politicians, their non-PS apparatchiks and the top tier in the PS.  That's all there is to it.

[ozbob]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

Thanks Nikko.  The point is the price point ...

By the way, urban bus has been significantly expanded up north.  Here at Goodna, we just battle on ... 

[ozbob]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

It may be like apples and oranges, but it has to be remembered that bus fares are the same as train fares in SEQ. Many cities such as Sydney, London, other UK cities, and nearly all Asian cities charge less for trips by bus than with train. SE Queenslanders are paying premium fares for a somewhat less premium form of transport. There are also plenty of locations in SEQ with a worse bus service than in QConnect areas.

Indeed Briz ..

[ozbob]

We do love our 524 ... don't get me wrong, one hour out of peak, 30 minute limited peak, it is a great bus, and one for no fuss .. our bus ...  the thing about the 524 is that it is an important link for many.  Miss it, well you can always go to the razzle dazzle .. hey?

Meanwhile  BCC, air BUZs run around the clock ...

[BrizCommuter]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

It may be like apples and oranges, but it has to be remembered that bus fares are the same as train fares in SEQ. Many cities such as Sydney, London, other UK cities, and nearly all Asian cities charge less for trips by bus than with train. SE Queenslanders are paying premium fares for a somewhat less premium form of transport. There are also plenty of locations in SEQ with a worse bus service than in QConnect areas.

That's because in SEQ, you pay for zones, not for the mode of travel, hence the idea of an integrated ticketing system.

Other transport systems can cope with a zonal system, different bus and train fares, and integrated ticketing. 

[longboi]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

Thanks Nikko.  The point is the price point ...

By the way, urban bus has been significantly expanded up north.  Here at Goodna, we just battle on ... 

Yes, at the expense of TAG and not the State.

[STB]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

It may be like apples and oranges, but it has to be remembered that bus fares are the same as train fares in SEQ. Many cities such as Sydney, London, other UK cities, and nearly all Asian cities charge less for trips by bus than with train. SE Queenslanders are paying premium fares for a somewhat less premium form of transport. There are also plenty of locations in SEQ with a worse bus service than in QConnect areas.

That's because in SEQ, you pay for zones, not for the mode of travel, hence the idea of an integrated ticketing system.

Other transport systems can cope with a zonal system, different bus and train fares, and integrated ticketing.

So basically, you want a mess like Sydney?

[longboi]

Limited investment and funding didn't stop major network upgrades happening in Townsville and Cairns in the last few years.

There is no impetus for improvement coming from the top ranks - politicians, their non-PS apparatchiks and the top tier in the PS.  That's all there is to it.

Yes, because there was limited investment by the State in both those upgrades. Also, what is "major" for Cairns and Townsville is different to what is "major" in SEQ. Additionally, things like passenger information and infrastructure are luxuries in the regions.

Anyway, as most have seemed to have glossed over, I am not saying that fares are appropriate or inappropriate. I'm only commenting that fare comparisons between SEQ and regional aren't as clear cut.

[minbrisbane]

Well, Cairns has live bus network tracking.

QConnect had google integration at least a year ago. 

Those are luxuries.

[BrizCommuter]

Not sure that the comparison to qconnect fares is relevant.

Not only is the payment methodology completely different, you also have to take into account that there is pretty much no investment in the qconnect network.
On the other hand, SEQ has new service packages coming out every 3-4 months.

This isn't a comment on whether or not the fare level is appropriate. Just pointing out that the comparison isn't apples for apples.

It may be like apples and oranges, but it has to be remembered that bus fares are the same as train fares in SEQ. Many cities such as Sydney, London, other UK cities, and nearly all Asian cities charge less for trips by bus than with train. SE Queenslanders are paying premium fares for a somewhat less premium form of transport. There are also plenty of locations in SEQ with a worse bus service than in QConnect areas.

That's because in SEQ, you pay for zones, not for the mode of travel, hence the idea of an integrated ticketing system.

Other transport systems can cope with a zonal system, different bus and train fares, and integrated ticketing.

So basically, you want a mess like Sydney?

I'd prefer a not a mess like London, although saying that just taking $1 off the base fares in SEQ would solve half the problem.

[ozbob]

Yo, the base fare is simply too high. Additionally drop the free after 9 journeys and go back to 50%, say after 8 journeys.  At least this will preserve the fare box and dissuade the major rorting.  Also further reduce off peak to 30%, this was suggested by the CRR Review team when LNP first elected.

Additionally allow children up to 15 years (up to 5?) to travel free on weekends public holidays with a fare paying adult.  And of course concession travel for unemployed (in line with every other state and territory).

[BrizCommuter]

Part 2 of the BrizCommuter world fare comparison is now online.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/2014-world-fare-comparison-part-2.html

Part 3 (weekly fares vs average income) will probably be ready around New Years Day.

[Old Northern Road]

Limited investment and funding didn't stop major network upgrades happening in Townsville and Cairns in the last few years.

There is no impetus for improvement coming from the top ranks - politicians, their non-PS apparatchiks and the top tier in the PS.  That's all there is to it.

Yes, because there was limited investment by the State in both those upgrades. Also, what is "major" for Cairns and Townsville is different to what is "major" in SEQ. Additionally, things like passenger information and infrastructure are luxuries in the regions.

Anyway, as most have seemed to have glossed over, I am not saying that fares are appropriate or inappropriate. I'm only commenting that fare comparisons between SEQ and regional aren't as clear cut.

Cairns and Townsville's bus networks look pretty luxurious to someone who lives in Moreton Bay.

[longboi]

Limited investment and funding didn't stop major network upgrades happening in Townsville and Cairns in the last few years.

There is no impetus for improvement coming from the top ranks - politicians, their non-PS apparatchiks and the top tier in the PS.  That's all there is to it.

Yes, because there was limited investment by the State in both those upgrades. Also, what is "major" for Cairns and Townsville is different to what is "major" in SEQ. Additionally, things like passenger information and infrastructure are luxuries in the regions.

Anyway, as most have seemed to have glossed over, I am not saying that fares are appropriate or inappropriate. I'm only commenting that fare comparisons between SEQ and regional aren't as clear cut.

Cairns and Townsville's bus networks look pretty luxurious to someone who lives in Moreton Bay.

Three words...

Economies of scale.

[#Metro]

Anybody who thinks BCC is going to reform the HWBN (Hi-Waste Bus Network) on it's own voluntary volition is in la la land. We have had not one but TWO bus reviews and as the Hi-Waste Google Earth Model shows, there's even MORE waste waiting to be quantified. *cough old cleveland road* *cough coronation drive*

[longboi]

Well, Cairns has live bus network tracking.

QConnect had google integration at least a year ago. 

Those are luxuries.

You missed the point entirely. It's much easier to implement such things when the entire statewide network is not even a quarter of the size of SEQ (in terms of contract spend, patronage and revenue). Those things might be nice but you are hard pressed to find a place to sit when waiting for the bus in many regional centres. Some don't have bus stops at all.

Clearly we have some people who find comprehension difficult and just want to argue for the sake of it.

My point is very simple. Find a comparison which is relevant (i.e. a similar-sized network that provides a similar level of service). Comparisons with qconnect fares are easily written off, the reasons for which are detailed in my previous posts.

[ozbob]

The point I was making re Qconnect is that the fares are affordable.  CPI increases have made them so.  SEQ fares have been compounded out of  reasonable affordability levels. When coupled with the bizarre fare system, that actually encourages wide spread rorting we have fare failure.  The TransLink Customer KPIs confirm it.  Patronage levels are stunted despite significant service increases.  The costs of not sorting the fare failure are compounded into the wider economy.  In short a disgrace.

[#Metro]

OMG have you seen this!!

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/fares-and-ticketing-2014

I have a friend visiting from interstate and wants to avoid the parking hassle. Advised to drive to train station and get train, but then realised that they'd have to be on paper tickets for their visit. 3 zone paper round trip = $14.40!!!  That's almost one hour of work at the minimum wage!



^^ TransLink fares, fuelled by BCC Hi Waste Bus Nework!

[Golliwog]

Uhhh, why can't they pick up a go card from the station office? Or if it's an unmanned station, from a newsagent? It can be returned at the end of the visit to recoup the deposit or they can keep it for next time they visit?

The deposit is $10, but if they use the gocard then on one 3 zone round trip for one person you're saving $4.58 compared to paper.

[Fares_Fair]

Uhhh, why can't they pick up a go card from the station office? Or if it's an unmanned station, from a newsagent? It can be returned at the end of the visit to recoup the deposit or they can keep it for next time they visit?

The deposit is $10, but if they use the gocard then on one 3 zone round trip for one person you're saving $4.58 compared to paper.

One problem for tourists is that they do not give back cash repayments. It has to go into a registered bank account. Unlikely to occur for overseas tourists.

[Golliwog]

Uhhh, why can't they pick up a go card from the station office? Or if it's an unmanned station, from a newsagent? It can be returned at the end of the visit to recoup the deposit or they can keep it for next time they visit?

The deposit is $10, but if they use the gocard then on one 3 zone round trip for one person you're saving $4.58 compared to paper.

One problem for tourists is that they do not give back cash repayments. It has to go into a registered bank account. Unlikely to occur for overseas tourists.

Huh. Didn't know that. I must admit only time I've done it is putting money from one go card straight onto another.