South East Busway turns ten

[Fares_Fair]

Uhhh, but what is one of the main arguments we've be arguing with for CRR and other projects? Inflation.

You may notice that I have stayed quiet on that one.  It's not an argument at all.

But the differences for passengers past Mitchelton is so small (~2 minutes) that you wouldn't notice. Those in from Mitchelton definitely lose out, though are more likely to get a seat. But when you take out a platform at Mitchelton to turn around a terminating train, what happens with the others around that time? As is the timetable is a bit sketchy with the 3 Mitchelton starters we have in the AM peak. What about off-peak? Funding more than likely wouldn't be available to run 4tph on each stopping pattern so you'd either have 2tph on each which leaves only Mitchelton benefiting, or run 4tph all stations in the off-peak which becomes inconsistent with peak stopping pattern.

We can and should do 8tph for the Ferny Grove line in peak.  I never meant a tiered service off peak for the Ferny Grove line.

So your plan is that we should spend tens of millions of dollars to get from an acceptable service to a slightly better one?  That is also my problem with Salisbury-Kuraby.  A 20 minute frequency service could have been done, which would have been good enough and completely achievable on the infrastructure.  Even a 15 minute frequency service could have been done, but would have been exceedingly tight.

We need to spend the dollars on using the existing infrastructure properly, not adding more.

Sunshine Coast excepted IMHO.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Sunshine Coast excepted IMHO.

I have some sympathy for that, but BrizCommuter would argue his line should get the duplication also.  I'm not sure what Gold Coasters want, but I think we need to channel their political clout into getting CRR done with attention to quick journey times.

However, even the Sunshine Coast line is further down the priority list than getting proper counter peak services at Milton, Toowong and Ipswich.  The Ipswich Motorway is a shocker inbound in the PM peak and not providing a reasonable rail alternative is a real missed opportunity.

The benefits from doing so are pretty obvious to me, and seems to be much more latent demand than on the Sunshine Coast.  I'm open to counter arguments.

I think BrizCommuter may show me the troll for that one!

[Fares_Fair]

Sunshine Coast excepted IMHO.

I have some sympathy for that, but BrizCommuter would argue his line should get the duplication also.  I'm not sure what Gold Coasters want, but I think we need to channel their political clout into getting CRR done with attention to quick journey times.

However, even the Sunshine Coast line is further down the priority list than getting proper counter peak services at Milton, Toowong and Ipswich.  The Ipswich Motorway is a shocker inbound in the PM peak and not providing a reasonable rail alternative is a real missed opportunity.

The benefits from doing so are pretty obvious to me, and seems to be much more latent demand than on the Sunshine Coast.  I'm open to counter arguments.

I think BrizCommuter may show me the troll for that one!

I appreciate what you are saying about counter-peak services for the lines mentioned.
If only the Sunshine Coast had just a counter-peak problem ! Ours is both.

Our services do not assist or encourage patronage or demand, due to the limitations of the single line track from Beerburrum. The number of services also prohibit patronage with poor frequencies, 44% of Caboolture to Nambour services are Rail buses and NOT trains. That's 43% of Northbound services and 45% of Southbound services for a breakdown.

The length of journey doesn't help either. If it's quicker to drive, they will.
Our major express services have halved in stations bypassed, from 20 down to 10, for all but Gympie North trains.

Remember the growth of the Sunshine Coast, by the governments own report, shows it as the 3rd highest in the entire State (until 2031), and second highest in the south east quarter (until 2031).

Regards,
Fares-Fair.

[somebody]

Our major express services have halved in stations bypassed, from 20 down to 10, for all but Gympie North trains.

But nothing to do with the duplication.  As I've already posted on.

On current infrastructure, I would support Doomben and Sunshine Coast trains running on a 15 minute clockface frequency in peak between them (30 minute frequency each) taking half the load of Albion and Wooloowin, at least in the outbound direction.  Other half would be done by Shorncliffe trains.  Doing so would allow the express leg to be Eagle Junction to Caboolture.  Inbound this may not work as it involves three conflicting moves.  In that event, CAB/PET/NBR trains could cover Albion/Wooloowin, running express Eagle Junction-Northgate and Shorncliffe trains cover Nundah/Toombul, running express Eagle Junction-Bowen Hills.

[Golliwog]

You may notice that I have stayed quiet on that one.  It's not an argument at all.

What do you mean, you agree about saving costs on inflation, or think that inflation is insignificant?

We can and should do 8tph for the Ferny Grove line in peak.  I never meant a tiered service off peak for the Ferny Grove line.

So your plan is that we should spend tens of millions of dollars to get from an acceptable service to a slightly better one?

I know that, but I think it should be at least 8tph doing one stopping pattern, all stations. How is that only slightly better?

[BrizCommuter]

Ferny Grove is the busiest suburban station on the whole network. Many inner FG Line stations are within 6km of the CBD. To argue that a tiered FG service is acceptable, that the duplication is not required, and these stations should only have a peak 4tph service is surely just a wind up attempt by a non-FG line commuter?

Reversing 4tph at Mitchelton is not a robust and reliable solution, and was also showed in the ICRCS as still resulting in peak overcrowding. The duplication to Ferny Grove will allow for an attractive metro style all stations peak service. It will also significantly increase reliability and maximum FG line capacity, which will help the other suburban lines with delay recovery and more scheduling flexibility. The benefits reach far beyond the FG line!

[somebody]

What do you mean, you agree about saving costs on inflation, or think that inflation is insignificant?

I think that inflation is insignificant.  As the price goes up due to inflation, so does the earning power of the purchasers.  What is concerning is that the price seems to be increasing above inflation.

I know that, but I think it should be at least 8tph doing one stopping pattern, all stations. How is that only slightly better?

Well, it is worse for people Mitchelton and beyond IMO.  For people Windsor-Gaythorne, it's really only a 3.75 minute saving on average.  I can't see that would swing the choice to use PT or not for too many.

Ferny Grove is the busiest suburban station on the whole network. Many inner FG Line stations are within 6km of the CBD. To argue that a tiered FG service is acceptable, that the duplication is not required, and these stations should only have a peak 4tph service is surely just a wind up attempt by a non-FG line commuter?

Most people think it is an axiom that their service should be better than what it is.

Reversing 4tph at Mitchelton is not a robust and reliable solution, and was also showed in the ICRCS as still resulting in peak overcrowding. The duplication to Ferny Grove will allow for an attractive metro style all stations peak service. It will also significantly increase reliability and maximum FG line capacity, which will help the other suburban lines with delay recovery and more scheduling flexibility.

That analysis had the expresses still serving Enoggerra and Gaythorne, and therefore carrying substantially more than half the patronage of the line.

Reliability should be adequate now that the precision cross at Keperra has been eliminated.

The benefits reach far beyond the FG line!

How so?

[BrizCommuter]

Well, it is worse for people Mitchelton and beyond IMO.  For people Windsor-Gaythorne, it's really only a 3.75 minute saving on average.  I can't see that would swing the choice to use PT or not for too many.

A peak train every 7.5mins (well, it would probably 6-9 minutes) is far more psychologically attractive than a train every 15 minutes. A train more frequent than every 10 minutes is a metro like frequency.

BrizCommuter would accept a temporary tiered pre-duplication service (if the phase 2 timetables ever eventuate), however fully supports the duplication, and a resulting metro like all stations service. The duplication cannot come soon enough.

Ferny Grove is the busiest suburban station on the whole network. Many inner FG Line stations are within 6km of the CBD. To argue that a tiered FG service is acceptable, that the duplication is not required, and these stations should only have a peak 4tph service is surely just a wind up attempt by a non-FG line commuter?

Most people think it is an axiom that their service should be better than what it is.
[/quote]
OK, so all Ipswich/Richlands/Caboolture Line stations will have a peak train every 6-12mins (or even every 3 mins at some stations), but you think that Ferny Grove Line stations only deserve a train every 15 minutes? FG Line stations as far as Mitchelton even had 5tph in the 1950s  with steam trains!

The benefits reach far beyond the FG line!

How so?
[/quote]
FG can currently only process a train every 8-10 minutes. With duplication, a train could be processed every 4-8 minutes. You do not need to worry about Mitchelton reversers blocking tracks. Thus the duplicated FG line will allow for better delay recovery, and more flexibility with scheduling. This has obvious knock on effects to all other suburban lines.

[Arnz]

Our major express services have halved in stations bypassed, from 20 down to 10, for all but Gympie North trains.

Remember the growth of the Sunshine Coast, by the governments own report, shows it as the 3rd highest in the entire State (until 2031), and second highest in the south east quarter (until 2031).

Shouldn't this be from "20 down to 13" for most services (with 2 peak services being reduced from 20 to 9) except for Gympie North trains?

[somebody]

A peak train every 7.5mins (well, it would probably 6-9 minutes) is far more psychologically attractive than a train every 15 minutes. A train more frequent than every 10 minutes is a metro like frequency.

Concede that point.  Although the likely 6-9min frequency does increase the average wait time above 7.5min frequency.

OK, so all Ipswich/Richlands/Caboolture Line stations will have a peak train every 6-12mins (or even every 3 mins at some stations), but you think that Ferny Grove Line stations only deserve a train every 15 minutes? FG Line stations as far as Mitchelton even had 5tph in the 1950s  with steam trains!

Probably the 5tph wasn't homogenous though, and had >15 minute gaps.

I've also commented that the Caboolture line wouldn't need so many trains if they weren't taking responsibility for Albion/W/N/T.

I don't know that it's a matter of what is deserved, but even if you look it at that way, the Ipswich line has almost double the patronage of the Ferny Grove line, I can live with it having a greater service frequency.

FG can currently only process a train every 8-10 minutes. With duplication, a train could be processed every 4-8 minutes. You do not need to worry about Mitchelton reversers blocking tracks. Thus the duplicated FG line will allow for better delay recovery, and more flexibility with scheduling. This has obvious knock on effects to all other suburban lines.

I find those benefits kind of hazy.  And where is the bang/buck?  Such an operating pattern is more expensive to operate.  Once you have a 15 minute frequency, it is acceptable especially in peak hour.  PT vs driving decisions would be made against PT usually on other grounds, such as needing the car at work or similar.

But we will never agree on this one and it is a moot point as the duplication is happening.

Our major express services have halved in stations bypassed, from 20 down to 10, for all but Gympie North trains.

Remember the growth of the Sunshine Coast, by the governments own report, shows it as the 3rd highest in the entire State (until 2031), and second highest in the south east quarter (until 2031).

Shouldn't this be from "20 down to 13" for most services (with 2 peak services being reduced from 20 to 9) except for Gympie North trains?

GYN services skip 22 stations in the old & new timetables.

Majority of services in the old timetable skipped 18 off peak and 20 in peak, but this is down to 14 in the new peak timetable.  By my count.  Off peak services skip 13 stations (serve Petrie).  I don't know why the off peak trains need to serve Albion.

[Fares_Fair]

Quote from Simon (formerly somebody) "GYN services skip 22 stations in the old & new timetables."

No, they skip 20 from Caboolture to Bowen Hills.
Caboolture isn't skipped and neither is Bowen Hills.
These stations are in order:
Morayfield, Burpengary, Narangba, Dakabin, Petrie, Lawnton, Bray Park, Strathpine, Bald Hills, Carseldine, Zillmere, Geebung, Sunshine, Virginia, Northgate, Nundah, Toombul, Eagle Junction, Wooloowin, Albion (Bowen Hills stop), then Fortitude Valley, Central and Roma Street.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Quote from Simon (formerly somebody) "GYN services skip 22 stations in the old & new timetables."

No, they skip 20 from Caboolture to Bowen Hills.
Caboolture isn't skipped and neither is Bowen Hills.
These stations are in order:
Morayfield, Burpengary, Narangba, Dakabin, Petrie, Lawnton, Bray Park, Strathpine, Bald Hills, Carseldine, Zillmere, Geebung, Sunshine, Virginia, Northgate, Nundah, Toombul, Eagle Junction, Wooloowin, Albion (Bowen Hills stop), then Fortitude Valley, Central and Roma Street.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Correct.

Seems that the Caboolture timetable shows the GYN trains expressing through the Petrie & Northgate platform numbers as well as the stations!

[Fares_Fair]

Our major express services have halved in stations bypassed, from 20 down to 10, for all but Gympie North trains.

Remember the growth of the Sunshine Coast, by the governments own report, shows it as the 3rd highest in the entire State (until 2031), and second highest in the south east quarter (until 2031).

Shouldn't this be from "20 down to 13" for most services (with 2 peak services being reduced from 20 to 9) except for Gympie North trains?

Yes, more correct than I. Thanks Arnz.  

There will be 4 express patterns on our Sunshine Coast line now:

Caboolture to Bowen Hills (bypass 20 stations)
Caboolture to Northgate (bypass 14 stations)
Caboolture to Petrie to Northgate (bypass 13 stations)
Petrie to Northgate (bypass 9 stations)

I'm sure I covered all of this in a previous post here somewhere.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Shouldn't this be from "20 down to 13" for most services (with 2 peak services being reduced from 20 to 9) except for Gympie North trains?

Yes, correct. Thanks Arnz.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Isn't it 14 stations bypassed in peak, as Petrie is still bypassed?  So, 20 to 14 peak, and 18 to 13 off peak, but with some peak trains only bypassing 9 stations.  Doh!

[Fares_Fair]

Is it ?  Yes.
I know, "Simon says." 

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Fares_Fair]

Shouldn't this be from "20 down to 13" for most services (with 2 peak services being reduced from 20 to 9) except for Gympie North trains?

Yes, correct. Thanks Arnz.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Isn't it 14 stations bypassed in peak, as Petrie is still bypassed?  So, 20 to 14 peak, and 18 to 13 off peak, but with some peak trains only bypassing 9 stations.  Doh!

Is it ?  Yes it is. Better thank somebody!
I know, "Simon says."  
Thanks Simon.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Fares_Fair]

Of the 4 express patterns on our Sunshine Coast line, there are 30 weekday expresses.
14 are Southbound.
16 are Northbound.

These are:

No.             Type of express service
4 Services - Caboolture to Bowen Hills (bypass 20 stations)
7 Services - Caboolture to Northgate (bypass 14 stations)
15 Services - Caboolture to Petrie to Northgate (bypass 13 stations)
4 Services - Petrie to Northgate (bypass 9 stations)

The current timetable has 23 weekday express services.
11 are Southbound.
12 are Northbound.


Regards,
Fares_Fair.

PS
We are way off subject here, is there any way to relocate our off-subject posts to a more appropriate 'venue' ?

[somebody]

PS
We are way off subject here, is there any way to relocate our off-subject posts to a more appropriate 'venue' ?

Yes, but there has been so little on topic discussion, I'm not sure of the point.  A new thread called "Rail ramblings - esp Sunshine Coast & Ferny Grove ?"

[Fares_Fair]

True, how much can one say about a decade old busway.
Perhaps a discussion on it needing linework repainted. 

How about random discussions about the network ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[SurfRail]

True, how much can one say about a decade old busway.
Perhaps a discussion on it needing linework repainted. 

I know some drivers who have compared the wheel ruts in the busway to the Adelaide O-Bahn - cruise control, no guidewheels required!

[Golliwog]

The benefits reach far beyond the FG line!

How so?

FG can currently only process a train every 8-10 minutes. With duplication, a train could be processed every 4-8 minutes. You do not need to worry about Mitchelton reversers blocking tracks. Thus the duplicated FG line will allow for better delay recovery, and more flexibility with scheduling. This has obvious knock on effects to all other suburban lines.
[/quote]
You forgot to point out as well that with the duplication all the way and a single stopping pattern, the only restriction on timetabling becomes how long it takes to turn around at FG, and how they slot in at Bowen Hills. It means that timings of services are no longer dictated by infrastructure restrictions on the FG line (other than only two platforms at FG) and can be determined by whatever limitation exist on the other end of the services be it the Beenleigh or Cleveland line. Adding in a second stopping pattern would only serve to complicate things far more than is necessary for such a short line.

[dwb]

The Connecting SEQ 2031 document is a DRAFT and people rightly refer to its status as a DRAFT.  Does anyone have information about when a FINAL or ENDORSED or APPROVED version will be issued?

I imagine projects will get shuffled in the election and the final may come out after the election, if Labor is reelected. Otherwise it will probably never come out.

PS, if Campbell wins, believe me he will re-write every single word of it just bc he can. And ultimately it will say something like "here is my State Road Action Plan that fits 15years of roadworks into my first 3 year term, plus the State will no longer be subsidising the purchase of Council buses"

[Golliwog]

The Connecting SEQ 2031 document is a DRAFT and people rightly refer to its status as a DRAFT.  Does anyone have information about when a FINAL or ENDORSED or APPROVED version will be issued?

I imagine projects will get shuffled in the election and the final may come out after the election, if Labor is reelected. Otherwise it will probably never come out.

PS, if Campbell wins, believe me he will re-write every single word of it just bc he can. And ultimately it will say something like "here is my State Road Action Plan that fits 15years of roadworks into my first 3 year term, plus the State will no longer be subsidising the purchase of Council buses"

And I wonder how many of the TMR staff will tell him to get stuffed? I hear a number of them are quite passionate about not doing roads only solutions.

[dwb]

And I wonder how many of the TMR staff will tell him to get stuffed? I hear a number of them are quite passionate about not doing roads only solutions.

And then the great bureaucrat shuffle will begin again and those staff who will be told to get stuffed will migrate back to BCC.

[Set in train]

I can't find a thread about busways in general in the infrastructure thread, so posting here.

This is interesting:

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/busind/techstdpubs/Road%20planning%20and%20design%20manual/Current%20document/RPDM_Chapter23.pdf

Where a future light rail may be placed in a busway tunnel, 3% is the maximum permissible grade.

Also mentioned:

Busway Planning and Design Manual (QT and Brisbane City Council, 1998).

When the KGS station had its open day, I spoke with one of the engineers and asked if the steep northern gradient towards Roma St would accommodate trams without modification. The engineer swore black and blue/scout's honour that trams would be able to traverse that steep slope and pointed to Melbourne (but never provided and didn't when asked a specific example).

Well if that engineer reckons trams will make it and it is 3% or less, I must be the Easter Bunny.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If its too steep for the LR/Tram to traverse by itself just add a lane of spinning cogs on the ground that attach to the undercarriage of the tram/LR vehicle to help pull it up the grade and to help arrest it going down the grade.

[Otto]

Trams had no problems on the steep gradient going up Old Cleveland Road, Camp Hill. Certainly greater than 3%. Think there was a steeper gradient on the Brisbane network, but can't remember where.

[minbrisbane]

Edward Street line?

[cartoonbirdhaus]

That's child's play compared to Gmunden, Austria: 9.6% at one section. Or the 13.9% stretch in Lisbon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gmunden_Tramway
http://www.railforthevalley.com/latest-news/zweisystem/13-9-grade-in-lisbon-impossible-claims-the-city-of-vancouver/

[somebody]

Well if that engineer reckons trams will make it and it is 3% or less, I must be the Easter Bunny.

Even heavy rail can support steeper grades.  e.g. Wynyard-Harbour Bridge (3.3%), most of the Blue Mountains heading west.

Trams can generally manage 8% I thought.  Sometimes more.  Just power every axle.

[petey3801]

Well if that engineer reckons trams will make it and it is 3% or less, I must be the Easter Bunny.

Even heavy rail can support steeper grades.  e.g. Wynyard-Harbour Bridge (3.3%), most of the Blue Mountains heading west.

Trams can generally manage 8% I thought.  Sometimes more.  Just power every axle.

At a guess, the Gold Coast line between Nerang and Helensvale (and even between Nerang and Robina) would be more than 3% as well, but not sure on that one (we don't actually get curve and gradient diagrams, and I honestly don't know where I could find them for QR either...).

[ozbob]

@Petey Old --> http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/Documents/Metropolitan%20System%20Information%20Pack%20-%20Issue%202%20-%20Sept%202007.pdf  page 24

But has max grade as 1:50

From http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/DownloadsandRailSystemMaps/SEQ/Pages/BeenleighGoldCoastLine.aspx

[petey3801]

@Petey Old --> http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/Documents/Metropolitan%20System%20Information%20Pack%20-%20Issue%202%20-%20Sept%202007.pdf  page 24

But has max grade as 1:50

From http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/NetworkServices/DownloadsandRailSystemMaps/SEQ/Pages/BeenleighGoldCoastLine.aspx

Cheers Bob! I would have thought it would be steeper than that, but oh well! My mistake