Capacity discussion From: Cross River Rail Project

[somebody]

Hasn't happened with any IA project yet.  The only big knockbacks have been for NSW, and in that case because what they proposed was demonstrably weak/had no business case/was a napkin sketch etc.

Interesting hearing you say that.  If you bag the NWRL in Sydney, people look at you like you are Cori Bernardi.

I'm not particularly inclined to go back to Sydney, I'd have to say.

[SurfRail]

I think Epping to Parramatta was a more useful project, but even that was of second-tier importance.

Without more CBD access, new rail routes are simply not going to work in Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne.

Adelaide and Perth have plenty of capacity for future expansion even taking a rather long-distance view, eg:

- For Adelaide - rail extensions further south than Seaford, running the Tonsley line to Flinders MC, conversion of all or part of the Outer Harbour line to light rail or tram-trains, other tram extensions,
- For Perth - Airport line, Ellenbrook line, MAX tram routes to Mirrabooka, UWA and Causeway/Curtin/Burswood, link from Thornlie to Cockburn Central, extension of Armadale line to Mundijong, other tram extensions (eg perhaps to Morley, Scarborough, Belmont etc)

None of the above requires expensive tunnelling.  Conceivably one day Adelaide might build an underground section under King William St to throughroute Seaford and Tonsley to the Gawler line, but that's purely optional where you have 9 terminating platforms most of which can accommodate more than one service.

In a rational world, the priorities should be:

1. CRR - because we only have 2 track pairs and it represents a 50% increase in inner city route capacity for SEQ.

2. Melbourne Metro - because Melbourne is going to hit choke point quickly as well but has more manoeuvring room with ripping out seats from 3+2 to 2+2 or less, and they can play around with the loop for unpopular but necessary capacity gains.  (Tunnel from Caulfield to St Kilda to Domain would have been better, but that's pretty much gone bye-bye.)

3. Chatswood to Sydenham line allowing you to throughroute DDs from Parramatta to Epping and NWRL via Macquarie Park and the city to Leppington/Bringelly and Campbelltown/Macarthur.  Looks like this too is off-limits - Parramatta to Chatswood is probably going to be single-deck only if built, same as NWRL.

4. Light rail seed funding for Perth, Adelaide, Canberra and the Gold Coast.

5. Fix the Melbourne tram network - fund more superstops (with the effect of ripping out stops too closely spaced), more and longer vehicles, terminus upgrades, minor extensions, power and traction upgrades, depot capacity, road configuration etc to over time double the average speed.

[somebody]

3. Chatswood to Sydenham line allowing you to throughroute DDs from Parramatta to Epping and NWRL via Macquarie Park and the city to Leppington/Bringelly and Campbelltown/Macarthur.  Looks like this too is off-limits - Parramatta to Chatswood is probably going to be single-deck only if built, same as NWRL.

This part puzzles me.  Why is it important to be DD?  Why go to Sydenham?

I'd be happy enough with the 2nd harbour crossing plan if it went to the Inner West and Bankstown lines (running to extra platforms at Regents Park only on the Bankstown line) and ignored Hurstville.  Also leaving the 4x DD tracks Redfern-Sydenham alone except for a slew/crossover north of Erskenville to allow connecting Erskenville #1 & #2 to Central (i) without interfering with Sector 1.

[SurfRail]

3. Chatswood to Sydenham line allowing you to throughroute DDs from Parramatta to Epping and NWRL via Macquarie Park and the city to Leppington/Bringelly and Campbelltown/Macarthur.  Looks like this too is off-limits - Parramatta to Chatswood is probably going to be single-deck only if built, same as NWRL.

This part puzzles me.  Why is it important to be DD?  Why go to Sydenham?

I'd be happy enough with the 2nd harbour crossing plan if it went to the Inner West and Bankstown lines (running to extra platforms at Regents Park only on the Bankstown line) and ignored Hurstville.  Also leaving the 4x DD tracks Redfern-Sydenham alone except for a slew/crossover north of Erskenville to allow connecting Erskenville #1 & #2 to Central (i) without interfering with Sector 1.

The DD thing is to ensure interoperability and flexibility if that ever is needed.  The cost is marginal.

Dedicated track pairs for the East Hills/Campbelltown/Bringelly expresses, Bankstown trains and Illawarra trains from the city to Sydenham.  6 tracks inbound of here, 4 tracks outbound of here (Illawarra pair and East Hills express pair).  South of Wolli Creek you can look at separating the Illawarra services from the metroised locals as far as Hurstville.

I think that ultimately there will be no Illawarra trains that use Central 4-15.

[somebody]

I think that ultimately there will be no Illawarra trains that use Central 4-15.

How does this fit in with the need to increase capacity between Strathfield and Town Hall?  Really, the only way that can be done is with (a) WEX (b) removing Inner West from the City Circle or (c) bringing back Macdonaldtown conflicts.

The first two plans leave Central 4-15 not adding capacity for the West/North.

[SurfRail]

I think that ultimately there will be no Illawarra trains that use Central 4-15.

How does this fit in with the need to increase capacity between Strathfield and Town Hall?  Really, the only way that can be done is with (a) WEX (b) removing Inner West from the City Circle or (c) bringing back Macdonaldtown conflicts.

The first two plans leave Central 4-15 not adding capacity for the West/North.

It doesn't except to make the system neater.  The non-Illawarra sectors are entirely a different issue.

I don't know what the fix is anymore.  The more I think of it frankly (and surprisingly), the more I wonder if you just run trains from Emu Plains/Hornsby & Epping around the City Circle together with Airport and South trains, and run Bankstown and Inner West trains over the bridge to Gordon/Hornsby/Berowra.  I'm not a fan of running trains from Hurstville anywhere other than BJn.

[somebody]

I don't know what the fix is anymore.  The more I think of it frankly (and surprisingly), the more I wonder if you just run trains from Emu Plains/Hornsby & Epping around the City Circle together with Airport and South trains, and run Bankstown and Inner West trains over the bridge to Gordon/Hornsby/Berowra. 

What do mean by this?  Bringing back Macdonaldown conflicts - that is currently the only way Northern Line trains can go around the city circle without restricting capacity.

Perhaps you are saying you like Greiner's plan of swapping the locals & suburbans??  (Nice idea, but .... )

Running Western trains around the City Circle is an interesting possibility, but the combination of expresses and all stoppers on the locals means that all additional services require the faster trains to slow down even further.

There are only 2 solutions I like:
1) WEX (or something like it)
2) Metrofying the Inner West (you'd presumably do the Bankstown line at the same time, but that can live without it).

I'm not a fan of running trains from Hurstville anywhere other than BJn.

Agreed to some degree.  But the sector 1 system is close to capacity trains-wise (if not passenger-wise).  There is a need to be thinking about future growth.  I hate the idea of sending the metro there.  Operational compatibility makes the exercise pointless, and incompatibility basically means that all trains must top Red/Syd/Wolli/Rock/Kog/Hurst all to Sydenham, or expresses will eat train paths.  Poor South Coast.

[SurfRail]

I'm on an S set at Granville at the moment on the fast Western pattern to Emu Plains.  It's about half seated where I am.  Note to Ministers Scott and Minnikin - frequency works, even when you use poxy old unairconditioned trains.

[somebody]

I'm on an S set at Granville at the moment on the fast Western pattern to Emu Plains.  It's about half seated where I am.  Note to Ministers Scott and Minnikin - frequency works, even when you use poxy old unairconditioned trains.

What Stratfhfield/Granville/Para?  Did many people get on at Granville, which I could understand.

[SurfRail]

What Stratfhfield/Granville/Para?  Did many people get on at Granville, which I could understand.

Left the city with a very healthy load, many of whom got off at Blacktown with me.

Shoulder peak very much in evidence with packed trains arriving into town well after 9am. 

There are some interesting little holes in the network, like the buses to Watsons Bay which I needed to rely on (and which failed badly for me in both directions, one way to the point of needing to get a cab).

I also ended up at the NWRL visitor centre at Castle Hill (completely unintended, it just happened to be there when I got off a bus I was catching back to town).  They told me there is a proposal to preserve a corridor from Cudgegong Rd to Marsden Park, which would mean crossing the Richmond line somewhere around Schofields/Riverstone and extending a bit further west.

Copies of all the new plans were in evidence, including the extension to the CBD via new alignment and onto the Bankstown line(s) and to Hurstville, and the LRT stuff.