Truck v train Dandenong South

[ozbob]

Cranes place carriages from yesterday's fatal level crossing smash at Dandenong back on track. @7newsmelbourne 6pm twitter.com/DeanFelton7/st...

— DeanFelton7 (@DeanFelton7) November 4, 2012

[somebody]

What's the chance of the driver of the truck being charged with manslaughter?

[ozbob]

Guess it depends on details we are not aware of, however as it appears possible.

No doubt the 'no win, no fee'  legal eagles are talking to the passengers as well ...

[#Metro]

Very large cost works need a ROLLING ANNUAL PROGRAM just like road have - do a few one year, do a few more the next year, and the next and the next. RAILBOT has often wanted a "small-projects" fund to iron out creases in the network like crossovers, like flyovers, like bridges and short duplications.

Maybe it is time we had a 'RAIL Blackspot' program to mirror the RACQ's road one...

[Golliwog]

Seems like harsher penalties aren't going to stop these problems; they're already fairly harsh in Vic.

One blogger after the Sandgate incident mentioned the UK has an "amber light" as well as barriers across the full width of the road i.e. departure side is covered as well.  The latter does remove incentive to try to run the crossing.

I'd be supportive of stronger barriers on the approach side (i.e. having bollards rise once the boom gate is down/going down) so a physical barrier exists that can prevent most vehicles from crashing through the barrier.

That said, I'm not so sure about on the departure side. I see you point, but have witnessed on at least one occasion an ambulance under lights and sirens being waved through on the departure side of the crossing by the train driver (this was at Grovely station where the crossing is at the end of the station). While not always a possibility due to crossing locations (i.e. probably not so good an idea for crossings away from stations, unless plenty of sight distance in both directions down the track is provided). Plus, a barrier on the departure side may trap a vehicle that was stopped on the crossing (I know it shouldn't have, but it does happen).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Plus, a barrier on the departure side may trap a vehicle that was stopped on the crossing (I know it shouldn't have, but it does happen).

The truck vs train at Strathpine was sorta that. Driver drove onto the level crossing, got caught in traffic, boomgates activated, driver put it into reverse taking out the boomgates and the poor bloke in the car behind him doing the right thing. There's been similar instances recently where that's happened at other level crossings. I think it was Lawnton? Maybe Carseldine? Can't exactly recall but the rear of a car was caught out in traffic on the level crossing when the lights activated. The train driver just had to wait at the station for the traffic to clear so the car stuck on the level crossing could finish crossing it.

[ozbob]

Melbourne Age --> Truck appeared to crash into gates

[somebody]

Seems like harsher penalties aren't going to stop these problems; they're already fairly harsh in Vic.

One blogger after the Sandgate incident mentioned the UK has an "amber light" as well as barriers across the full width of the road i.e. departure side is covered as well.  The latter does remove incentive to try to run the crossing.

I'd be supportive of stronger barriers on the approach side (i.e. having bollards rise once the boom gate is down/going down) so a physical barrier exists that can prevent most vehicles from crashing through the barrier.

That said, I'm not so sure about on the departure side. I see you point, but have witnessed on at least one occasion an ambulance under lights and sirens being waved through on the departure side of the crossing by the train driver (this was at Grovely station where the crossing is at the end of the station). While not always a possibility due to crossing locations (i.e. probably not so good an idea for crossings away from stations, unless plenty of sight distance in both directions down the track is provided). Plus, a barrier on the departure side may trap a vehicle that was stopped on the crossing (I know it shouldn't have, but it does happen).

I don't know Golliwog.  LX accidents are potentially fatal - the potential of maybe possibly getting an ambulance through faster which maybe possibly could save a life doesn't seem to counteract the hazards of the current system.

The suggestion of bollards only has a point if they are strong enough to hold back a truck - is such a strong barrier feasible?

Regarding the departure side boom, it would certainly make it significantly less attractive to attempt to run it.  Whether or not there should be enough space to safely hold a car or even a truck on the departure side, I'm not really sure.  I expect in realilty people go through these gates if caught but it would increase the degree to which that is avoided.

[ozbob]

...
Bear in mind in some places you might be able to get away with say grade sepping surrounding roads, and just closing the crossing at the minor one, the figure might be less.

That is a very valid point Gazza.  Those in the know in Melbourne suggest around 10 could be closed.  I suppose the issue is to do in concert with grade separation so that demonstrable traffic improvements overall can be done.  Traffic in Melbourne is horrendous at times so it should be an easy sell, road efficiency improved, train reliability improved, safety improved overall.

[Golliwog]

I don't know Golliwog.  LX accidents are potentially fatal - the potential of maybe possibly getting an ambulance through faster which maybe possibly could save a life doesn't seem to counteract the hazards of the current system.

Fair point. To be honest, it probably depends how often such events happen. In this case I think the ambo had pulled down the wrong side of the road to bypass the line of traffic waiting, but wouldn't have crossed the tracks if the driver hadn't waved him through. I think if they can have some kind of agreement for such things, and they can ensure safety as best they can, then they should do it (not just for ambos but all emergency vehicles).

The suggestion of bollards only has a point if they are strong enough to hold back a truck - is such a strong barrier feasible?

I wasn't sure, but this appears to show that the answer is yes:



EDIT: Youtube video didn't embed correctly, so changed to link.

[somebody]

Sherwood LX is one that could go here.  How many places in the world have four or more tracks and a level crossing?  Certainly nowhere in NSW; I checked the Islington-Maitland stretch.

3 tracks with an LX is radical enough.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Japan has level crossings with 4 tracks

[ozbob]

Melbourne Age --> Fatal crash sparks anger over motorists

[ozbob]

Twitter

5m Ten News Melbourne Ten News Melbourne ‏@tennewsmelb

The truck driver at the centre of Saturday's fatal train smash to face more than ten charges. #tennews

[ozbob]

Melbourne Age --> Second truck driver sought over crash

[ozbob]

Twitter

5m Ten News Melbourne Ten News Melbourne ‏@tennewsmelb

The truck driver at the centre of Saturday's fatal train smash to face more than ten charges. #tennews

Hmmmm ... this tweet has been deleted from source account, not meant to be tweeted??

[somebody]

Japan has level crossings with 4 tracks

Indeed it does.  I was going to mention that.

The suggestion of bollards only has a point if they are strong enough to hold back a truck - is such a strong barrier feasible?

I wasn't sure, but this appears to show that the answer is yes:

I guess it's just a matter of money.  That test only shows a 6 wheel truck, so might need to be a bit stronger to withstand an 18 wheeler or a B-Double.

[ozbob]

Melbourne Age --> Train drivers blame motorists ignoring signals

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

6th November 2012

Re: Level crossings ....

Greetings,

Train drivers in Melbourne upset, and rightly so -->  Train drivers blame motorists ignoring signals  http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/train-drivers-blame-motorists-ignoring-signals-20121105-28u3z.html

Time Governments faced up to the reality of 172 level crossings on the suburban network in Melbourne, 54 on the suburban network in Brisbane and around 10 in Sydney.

There are thousands more of course throughout the country.

The issue is motorists who drive without proper care and attention, and those who ignore red lights  and speed through closing crossings and some who actually drive around down boom gates!

Grade separation is utopia and is not going to be achieved in our life times.  So get real and force motorists, heavy vehicle operators and others to obey the safety laws and regulations.  If they don't, ban them for life.

People who do not obey basic road rules are best off the road and on the train.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Sent to outlets:

4th November 2012

Level crossings ....

Greetings,

Another serious level crossing incident at Dandenong South Victoria -->   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9221.0

Governments all over Australia are kidding themselves if they think their safety campaigns and token fines and sanctions are effective.  They are not.  Near misses continue to increase and the risks resulting from idiots loose on the roads with killing machines just exacerbates.

The Victorian Premier has described it as a tragedy. How true ... a tragedy how successive governments have allowed festering grade separation issues to remain unresolved,  a tragedy how they have failed to enforce basic road rules with aggressive fines and serious sanctions.  Red light running is all too common as the tally of hundreds of near misses reported by operators all over mounts.

In Victoria as reported in the Melbourne Age  http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/safety-fears-after-fatal-crash-20121103-28qir.html

" ... Last week, Fairfax revealed a significant increase in near misses between trains and vehicles at Victorian level crossings, with Dandenong recording the highest number of incidents.

Across the state, there were 170 near misses in 2011-12, compared with 146 the previous year. The number of incidents involving trains and track-side workers at level crossings went from 160 to 290 in that time.

Dandenong recorded nine near misses between vehicles and trains, Noble Park seven, and Springvale four, leading to concerns of increasing motorist frustration along the heavily congested Dandenong corridor. ... "

It is only going to get worse as traffic intensity, train and road increases.  Yes, tragedy all right Premier, yours and governments past and present all over Australia ...

Universal grade separation is not going occur anytime soon.  Governments need to get fair dinkum, level crossing breaches first offence  minimum 12 months licence suspension, second offence life.  This will greatly assist no doubt in bringing these idiots under control.

Place traffic signals additional to the standard railway crossing warning lights, booms and signs on approaches to higher risk crossings.  See here for some examples -->  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2391.msg110697#msg110697

More needs to be done in terms of education - more education targeted directly to motorists and heavy vehicle operators, and of course ongoing grade separation.  Prominent ' red light ' cameras.

Pedestrians and cyclists also need to obey rules and regulations.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[somebody]

I think the decision about accepting killing the driver (in the interests of the greater good) has been accepted if you go down the bollard path.  That truck in the video did not look survivable to me.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If you put up bollards to stop a truck doing 100kph what about all the debris now being thrown into the middle of the level crossing?

[somebody]

If you put up bollards to stop a truck doing 100kph what about all the debris now being thrown into the middle of the level crossing?

Hopefully it wouldn't be enough to penetrate a window or derail the train.

I think we're getting pretty close to the problems with this approach.  Or we could just follow the UK approach which apparently works.

[Gazza]

Guys, you're all forgetting that a truck is not going to be doing 100 km/h at a suburban level crossing.

A little common sense please.

[Golliwog]

I understand being hesitant in advocating bollards which do have a lethal potential for high speed vehicles. However, I think there would be some impact on driver behavior, in that they would hopefully be made aware that bollards are installed and therefore be less likely to try and run the crossing. If they're entering the crossing due to not paying attention (and so now hitting the bollards) then I have little sympathy as the roads are dangerous enough as it is without fools driving around not paying attention. If it's a legitimate mechanical issue (say failed brakes) or incapacitated driver, I'd question what is the likelihood that this happens on the approach to a LX with the gates down as opposed to somewhere else on the network.

I also think you would need to weigh the risk of the people in the vehicle being injured/killed when they hit the bollard, vs. the potentially much greater number of deaths and injuries if they manage to cause an accident like this one in Melbourne. The debris that could potentially be on the tracks, I feel will have much less of an impact than potentially a whole truck.

[ozbob]

The Cranbourne line is back running from first train Monday morning.

— Metro Trains (@metrotrains) November 11, 2012

[ozbob]

Twitter

2m Daniel Bowen Daniel Bowen ‏@danielbowen

Blog: The unsung hero of the Dandenong South train crash: the train design http://j.mp/W3VSKC

[ozbob]

http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/media-centre/media-releases/5373-safer-level-crossing-speed-limits-for-regional-victoria.html

Safer level crossing speed limits for regional Victoria

Wednesday, 14 November 2012
From the Minister for Roads

The Victorian Coalition Government will provide councils with new speed limit signs to improve safety on local roads approaching level crossings, Minister for Roads Terry Mulder said today.

In 2008, the Victorian Road Safety Committee's Inquiry into Safety at Level Crossings recommended that speed limits leading up to rail crossings should be reduced from 100 km/h to a maximum of 80 km/h.

"I am proud to say that within the next few months, all Victorian councils will receive the reduced speed limit signs to make more than 170 regional level crossings considerably safer for all drivers," Mr Mulder said.

"In 2008 the former Labor Government reduced the speed limit at level crossings on all high speed roads under the control of VicRoads to 80 km/h, but local government roads were not covered.

"Local government will now receive funding to reduce the speed limit on local roads that are sealed and currently have a speed limit of 100 km/h or 110 km/h so they will match the arterial road network."

The results of studies in Victoria and Western Australia have shown that drivers comply with reduced speed limits on the approach to high speed, low volume level crossings, even on railway lines which they know carry few trains.

"We believe that level crossings should be made safer regardless of road and rail traffic numbers. Reducing the speed limit on the approach to crossings will improve safety," Mr Mulder said.

"The Coalition Government strongly believes in supporting local government in maintaining safe and usable roads. This program is in addition to our $160 million Country Roads and Bridges program."

VicRoads will work closely with municipal councils, rail managers and Victoria Police to help ensure a speedy transition from the existing speed limits to the reduced speed limits.

VicTrack will soon begin distributing the new speed limit signs to enable councils to start installing the new speed zones.