Yeronga - CFN service extension proposals

[#Metro]

Hello,

I'm half way through my CFN review, and along with Centenary, Bulimba and the Northwest, I have noticed that Yeronga is missing in action. There are two three potential solutions, and it would be great to have some commentary on them. There are ~ 5000 residents in Yeronga, many of them live far too far away from the infrequent train service.

1. The Cross-Town Option
Services every 15 minutes, feeding Greenslopes Busway (terminate and transfer)

The first proposal is to use a cross town service, terminating in Yeronga to do a run of the suburb and then head up Venner Road and over into Waterton Street to Greenslopes Busway Station (intersects the BUZ 100 at Ipswich Road). The travel time for this is approximately 10 minutes to go from Yeronga to Greenslopes, a 5 minute connection time (waiting time) and then another 10 minutes travel time into the CBD. All up, the travel time will be around 25 minutes (not including waiting time - frequency), which is not bad considering a direct service would take around 21 minutes to travel from Yeronga to the CBD (hourly frequency). Beyond Greenslopes the service could continue to serve Greenslopes Private Hospital and terminate at Greenslopes mall (intersects the proposes Logan Road CFN BUZ).

Advantages - Access to all SE Busway destinations, cross-city travel.
Disadvantages - Slower, potentially not going to be a well patronised route, so the frequency might drop off to 30 minutes off-peak, 15 minutes in peak only?

2. The Feeder Option
Services every 15 minutes, feeding Greenslopes Busway (terminate and transfer)

The second proposal is to use a feeder service, terminating at PA Hospital or Stones Corner turnaround to feed Park Road and the SE Busway at Buranda. I haven't done the travel time calculations on this one, but I would expect them to be around 25 minutes.

Advantages - saves money, easy connections to Buranda, CBD, trains and Carindale (travel in all directions possible).
Disadvantages - interchange required

3. Extend 196 into Yeronga
Services every 15 minutes, direct service

The third proposal is to extend the 196 Fairfield into Yeronga. This will require a bus turnaround to be constructed in Fairfield Gardens OR the Home Street / Fairfield Road 'Y' intersection to be modified extensively.

Advantages - Direct service, serves Fairfield Gardens Shopping Centre (so good for local shopping trips), stops outside of Fairfield Gardens, not on the road away from it. As it is an extension, cheap to tack on to the 196 - no need to create a separate bus number, less duplication up Fairfield Rd.

Disadvantages - requires approximately $500 000 - $1 Million of works to create a bus turnaround (cf CityGlider turnaround in West End). Trips to Yeronga will need to do a loop around Fairfield Gardens shopping Centre Car park which can be a bit slow. Negotiation with shopping centre owners required.

4. Use Lanyard Street as a one way bus entry

Advantages - Lanyard street only has two properties on it, can use current bus stops
Disadvantages - slow, requires removal of some car parks on the left

[somebody]

Why the needed construction for option 3?  If the bus can get into Fairfield Gardens now and get back out, it doesn't seem like any construction is needed.

I think a full time 107 or something like it, FWIW.

[Golliwog]

Why not just feed rail at Fairfield/Yeronga stations?

[Mr X]

I made a topic on this last week...

#2 (to rail) and #3 were mentioned in said thread.

#1 isn't good for city commuters. No one from Yeronga wants to go to the city in such an indirect way. Cross city connection would be excellent though and well received I would expect.

[#Metro]

Why the needed construction for option 3?  If the bus can get into Fairfield Gardens now and get back out, it doesn't seem like any construction is needed.

I think a full time 107 or something like it, FWIW.

If you have a look at nearmaps, you can immediately see a problem with the intersection. You can't get a bus going to the CBD from Yeronga into Fairfield Gardens and then out to the CBD again. Try it (i'm happy to be wrong).

Why not just feed rail at Fairfield/Yeronga stations?

Rail is not frequent enough at Yeronga and the bus line will be far too short to attract decent patronage (and therefore low frequency due to lack of combined market).
Can't feed Fairfield as the road will trap the bus or will require a long circuit around the area. Frequency is also too low (and cost for increasing frequency? ~ 18 million + if Ferny Grove is anything to go by).

#1 isn't good for city commuters. No one from Yeronga wants to go to the city in such an indirect way. Cross city connection would be excellent though and well received I would expect.

It is a bit slower and does require interchange, on the upside though it does give all access to all busway stations at high frequency.

[Mr X]

Only way I can see to do that is to have the bus do a loop through the carpark closest to the bus stop (next to Brougham st). Tight squeeze and huge potential for regular crashes with parked cars.

EDIT: I think Yeronga is too dense and close to the CBD to warrant an indirect transfer. It requires an extended 196 or similar at the very least.

[somebody]

Why not just feed rail at Fairfield/Yeronga stations?

12.00pm    Alice Street Stop 95A app George St    Zoom to stop on map
12.01pm    William Street Stop 101 near Margaret St    Zoom to stop on map
12.02pm    William Street Stop 104 near Elizabeth St    Zoom to stop on map
12.05pm    Cultural Centre station Platform 2    Zoom to stop on map
12.07pm    South Bank busway station platform 2    Zoom to stop on map
...
12.18pm    Brisbane Corso at Newcastle Street, stop 16    Zoom to stop on map

12.01pm    Central station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map
12.04pm    Roma Street station, platform 4    Zoom to stop on map
12.08pm    South Brisbane station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map
12.10pm    South Bank station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map
12.13pm    Park Road station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map
12.15pm    Dutton Park station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map
12.17pm    Fairfield station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map
12.19pm    Yeronga station, platform 1    Zoom to stop on map

Does that explain some of the reason?  By the time you have reached Yeronga rail, you would be home on the direct bus option.  And it isn't very much of the bus's time to do it directly either.  On the other hand, if it is a coverage route then perhaps these issues aren't important.

Why the needed construction for option 3?  If the bus can get into Fairfield Gardens now and get back out, it doesn't seem like any construction is needed.

I think a full time 107 or something like it, FWIW.

If you have a look at nearmaps, you can immediately see a problem with the intersection. You can't get a bus going to the CBD from Yeronga into Fairfield Gardens and then out to the CBD again. Try it (i'm happy to be wrong).

Looks to me like the bus leaves the centre onto Brougham St and could travel in either direction from there.  Entering requires a U-turn at the lights though.

[#Metro]

Only way I can see to do that is to have the bus do a loop through the carpark closest to the bus stop (next to Brougham st)

Hence the need for a turnaround facility.

[#Metro]

Does that explain some of the reason?  By the time you have reached Yeronga rail, you would be home on the direct bus option.  And it isn't very much of the bus's time to do it directly either.  On the other hand, if it is a coverage route then perhaps these issues aren't important.

True (a bit shocking though, train doesn't have road congestion to deal with). I'm trying to NOT make it a coverage route because CFN is all about getting decent frequency and span for indecently cheap cost!

[somebody]

Does that explain some of the reason?  By the time you have reached Yeronga rail, you would be home on the direct bus option.  And it isn't very much of the bus's time to do it directly either.  On the other hand, if it is a coverage route then perhaps these issues aren't important.

True (a bit shocking though, train doesn't have road congestion to deal with). I'm trying to NOT make it a coverage route because CFN is all about getting decent frequency and span for indecently cheap cost!

Well that's what the Merivale Bridge gives us.

[STB]

Why the needed construction for option 3?  If the bus can get into Fairfield Gardens now and get back out, it doesn't seem like any construction is needed.

I think a full time 107 or something like it, FWIW.

I agree.  For Yeronga, a full time modified 107 is all that is really needed IMO.  If people want to head across to Greenslopes (not sure why someone would want to do that), then you can just get off at Boggo Road busway and interchange onto route 169 (assuming that sticks around, most likely will I think).

The only crosstown service I think that should stick around in the Yeronga area is basically a truncated 105 service that terminates at Yeerongpilly - in my travels on the 105 - and I've done several now, will do several more before the year's out - the 105 actually does pick up quite a few from Indooroopilly/Tennyson/Sherwood over to Yeronga, particularly during the peak hour from what I've seen with my own eyes.

EDIT:  TT, I look forward to reviewing and criticising your 'review' - I say that loosely as you obviously don't have the resources to take into account of travelling patterns, patronage, costs, operational constraints etc that normally goes into a basic standard review - I did a few of those in my time.

[#Metro]

The only crosstown service I think that should stick around in the Yeronga area is basically a truncated 105 service that terminates at Yeerongpilly - in my travels on the 105 - and I've done several now, will do several more before the year's out - the 105 actually does pick up quite a few from Indooroopilly/Tennyson/Sherwood over to Yeronga, particularly during the peak hour from what I've seen with my own eyes.

EDIT:  TT, I look forward to reviewing and criticising your 'review' - I say that loosely as you obviously don't have the resources to take into account of travelling patterns, patronage, costs, operational constraints etc that normally goes into a basic standard review - I did a few of those in my time.

Well this is RAILBOT, and I am totally unqualified, so I do have the liberty to put up such proposals and get away with it. A professional couldn't do that of course

That and when I release the KML file, everyone else on this forum can download it and make their own changes and post it as they wish! Yay for discussion!!

[#Metro]

http://www.humantransit.org/2010/05/basics-should-we-redesign-our-bus-network-and-how.html

[Golliwog]

I can see the point your making Simon, but I disagree. The bus trip and the rail trip are roughly the same length (time) for the trips you've shown. However, the stop you had the bus going to isn't really servicing any great part of Yeronga. It's another 7 minutes for the 105 to get to the "Kadumba St near Eversley Tce, stop 23" bus stop @ 12:25pm (this is the closest on the loop to Yeronga station) then another 4 minutes from there to the "Brisbane Corso near Ormuz Rd, stop 34" bus stop (the far end of the loop) then another 6 minutes to get back to the Yeronga TAFE.

So this run could instead meet the same train you found at Yeronga (a 6 minute time gap should be more than enough for the connection to be ensured) and not run all the way to the CBD and get people to the same stops in Yeronga as it does currently without duplicating rail all the way in.

[somebody]

Still hard not to imagine a fairly significant time lost in interchange.

[techblitz]

southside crosstown service on a sunday needed to connect beenleigh/ipswich lines from darra/corinda/ or sherwood over to coopers plains,salisbury or yerongpilly.

[#Metro]

Still hard not to imagine a fairly significant time lost in interchange.

The only time I would bother living near a train line is if it were on the Ipswich or soon to be boosted FG line and up to Northgate.
Interchanging with anything else is going to be painful.

As part of you're CFN review, I think itd be good to see to see 66 and 109 merged into a BUZ and the 412 extended to Bulimba to create a cross town east-west inner city BUZ. Thats just my opinion anyway. (Sorry to go slightly off topic)

Thanks for the suggestion. Once I have worked the file up (still a while to go) you can modify and draw whatever you want!

[Golliwog]

Still hard not to imagine a fairly significant time lost in interchange.

I disagree. If you run it as a loop around Shottery St, Cowper St and Fairfield Rd (stopping at the pedestrian bridge across to the station) then back onto Kadumba St to do the 105's loop through Yeronga. Having the stop right there is really no different to the bus interchange at Ferny Grove or Park Road.

Lets go back to the times of the bus vs train runs. 105 left Alice St at 12:00, train left Central at 12:01, bus got to the Kadumba/Eversley bus stop at 12:25, train got to Yeronga at 12:19. Now Google maps estimates the time to drive from the pedestrian overpass on Fairfield Rd to the intersection of Kadumba and Eversley as 48 seconds. So if you allow 5 minutes wait between when the train pulls in and the bus leaves, you're going to get home at the same time.

I can't see the time lost in interchange you're talking about.

Where I can see time being lost is in now having to walk/catch the free loop to a train station. Walking, Google maps estimates 17 minutes from the corner of Alice and George (where the 105 leaves from) to South Bank station, or 18 minutes to Central. Given the train gets to South Bank 9 minutes after Central, you would be 8 minutes worse off in that scenario, but the interchange at Yeronga has nothing to do with it, and now that you're no longer running it all the way into the CBD, you can more easily increase the frequency of the route to something better than the ~20-30 minutes currently given by the 107 in peak.

The only time I would bother living near a train line is if it were on the Ipswich or soon to be boosted FG line and up to Northgate.
Interchanging with anything else is going to be painful.

I'm just going to correct you and say if the interchange is set up properly, the interchange itself will be seamless and pain free. What WILL be painful is the poor offpeak frequency (which is what you allude to in your comment) which has nothing to do with interchanging. I think it's very important to separate those two things as while poor frequency and poor interchange can both lead to bad travels, one doesn't mean the other.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The only time I would bother living near a train line is if it were on the Ipswich or soon to be boosted FG line and up to Northgate.
Interchanging with anything else is going to be painful.

I'm just going to correct you and say if the interchange is set up properly, the interchange itself will be seamless and pain free. What WILL be painful is the poor offpeak frequency (which is what you allude to in your comment) which has nothing to do with interchanging. I think it's very important to separate those two things as while poor frequency and poor interchange can both lead to bad travels, one doesn't mean the other.

If your going to dive into interchanges between bus and rail, the Caboolture line has better interchanges than most of Albion-Northgate which have no interchange facilities or long walks to the bus stops. Out of the 15 stations (Northgate-Caboolture) 5 of them don't have a interchange facility/bus stop within 40m of the station. No buses go past Sunshine or Dakabin, Zillmere is 130m to Murphy Road, Bald Hills doesn't have bus services - 400m walk to the hourly 680/500m walk to the hourly 327 and Strathpine is a long 800m walk to the Strathpine interchange/100m to the South Pine-Station road stops.

The interchange between the two modes are excellent however its the bus frequencies that let the whole thing down moreso than the train frequency considering most stations have the inbound and outbound trains departing at the same time or within 5 minutes of each other with routes starting/finishing at the station (bus arrives before the first train departs, leaves after the last train departs). BT has also made it useless in some instances eg the 326/327 go past Geebung and the 335 past Carseldine station at the same time the train does or the opposite direction/running hours.

[somebody]

The interchange between the two modes are excellent however its the bus frequencies that let the whole thing down moreso than the train frequency considering most stations have the inbound and outbound trains departing at the same time or within 5 minutes of each other with routes starting/finishing at the station (bus arrives before the first train departs, leaves after the last train departs). BT has also made it useless in some instances eg the 326/327 go past Geebung and the 335 past Carseldine station at the same time the train does or the opposite direction/running hours.

Still a bit pointless without more frequent trains.

[achiruel]

Is it really necessary for the bus to enter Fairfield Gardens shopping centre? Why not just stop on the street outside? It's not like it's an interchange.

Could a 196 extension be done like this:

http://goo.gl/maps/OFlbS

I realise it's a bit loopy.  But Yeronga as a suburb is a huge PITA to serve.

[#Metro]

Is it really necessary for the bus to enter Fairfield Gardens shopping centre? Why not just stop on the street outside? It's not like it's an interchange.

This is a great idea, however Fairfield Road is extremely busy, fast moving road which is a truck route. Dropping off at Fairfield is easy (when heading to Yeronga), however, the on the way back, the counter-stop next to the intersection of Brougham and Home Street requires two roads to be crossed and there are no traffic signals on Home Street there to assist this. This is also quite a distance from the shopping centre as well, and as you can imagine, as this is the only main shopping centre in the area, people also have shopping with them so the whole thing is very inconvenient and far.

[#Metro]

There is a fourth option:

http://goo.gl/maps/n79R5

http://goo.gl/maps/cBYtI

If this road was modified, it could become one way bus entry into the shopping centre. Buses from Yeronga would turn right into Ashby Street and then use Lanyard street as a slip road to enter the shopping centre. Carparks would have to be removed and it might be a bit slow but it would stop neatly at the current bus stop and then head to the CBD. Probably the cheapest option too?

[Mr X]

^^ That's actually a very good idea   only constraint is navigating the carpark, but current buses seem to do that fine anyway.

[somebody]

I don't see why you'd loop back to Yeronga.

[STB]

There is a fourth option:

http://goo.gl/maps/n79R5

http://goo.gl/maps/cBYtI

If this road was modified, it could become one way bus entry into the shopping centre. Buses from Yeronga would turn right into Ashby Street and then use Lanyard street as a slip road to enter the shopping centre. Carparks would have to be removed and it might be a bit slow but it would stop neatly at the current bus stop and then head to the CBD. Probably the cheapest option too?

I don't mind that routing.  Just curious though, what's the walking distance from the streets nearest to Hyde Road?  I think it would be ideal that those residents don't miss out on a bus service, as they currently have one.

[achiruel]

I don't see why you'd loop back to Yeronga.

To serve the railway station.

[somebody]

I don't see why you'd loop back to Yeronga.

To serve the railway station.

That makes more sense if you are continuing on to Tennyson.

[STB]

I don't see why you'd loop back to Yeronga.

To serve the railway station.

That makes more sense if you are continuing on to Tennyson.

Perhaps supplement that with a truncated 105, as I previously suggested?  At least then Hyde Road would get a service, on top of what TT has drawn up, and still provides a link between Yeronga and Indooroopilly which from several sightings of my own there does seem to be a bit of demand for that trip.  Obviously though, I am restricted to the lack of hardcore patronage data.

[STB]

Something like this to supplement TT's suggestion...NB: I don't have accurate patronage data or movements to justify this service, just on the ground data.

[#Metro]

^^^ Oh, I am thinking of something even more radical than that. Under the CFN model 105 would be cut from Yeronga entirely.

STB, once the file is done you can download it and see individual routes and make suggestions. I think your dialogue would be very useful in refining the CFN model.

[Mr X]

Cut the 105 from Yeronga and extend the 196 into Yeronga. Pax to Indooroopilly can swap at Fairfield.

[#Metro]

Cut the 105 from Yeronga and extend the 196 into Yeronga. Pax to Indooroopilly can swap at Fairfield.

SHHHH!!! You are spoiling all the surprises!!