Missing crossovers from infrastructure projects in SEQ.

[somebody]

Adding a crossover won't fix that problem.

I say that it will, providing that you remove the need to wrong road here.  I guess that requires QR to turn around a train in 6 minutes.

This is what Petrie currently copes with.

P1: 6.50 Rosewood-Caboolture All Stations
P3: 6.58 Petrie-Richlands All Stations
P1: 7.03 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P2: 7.04 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.09 Nambour-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.10 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.15 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P2: 7.16 Petrie-Roma Street Express
P1: 7.20 Roma Street-Caboolture All Stations
P2: 7.21 Caboolture-Ipswich Express
P3: 7.22 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.27 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P1: 7.33 Nambour-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.28 Petrie-Richlands All Stations
P2: 7.34 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P1: 7.39 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.40 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations
P2: 7.45 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P1: 7.50 Ipswich-Caboolture Express
P2: 7.51 Nambour-Ipswich Express (Does not stop at Petrie)
P3: 7.52 Petrie-Richlands All Stations

All of the red trains are currently wrong roading.  

There is a legitimate need for the crossover that Simon has suggested at Darra West but any gains from the instalation of that crossover are minimal without the addition of a further crossover between the up main and the down suburban on the station side of that crossover before the junction of the down suburban with the down Richlands line.

You lost me.

Do you mean for inbound trains?  What operating pattern are you thinking which would benefit from that crossover?

No answer?

[mufreight]

It would provide greater operational flexibility enabling a cross platform transfer from city bound express services from Ipseich to all stations services ex the Richlands line for passengers between Darra and Milton, off peak it would enable all city bound services to operate off the one platform without crossing conflicts with westbound services be they passenger or freight and allow freigh services to operate eastbound without crossing conflicts with westbound services as presently occours.
No provision has been made at Darra West for the extension of a third or fourth track west of that point withou major disruption of traffic to reconstruct the existing configuration, signals would require to be repositioned as would a number of the overhead support structures and cabling.
Shortsightedness in the extreme absolute incompetence at worst or do we again aportion the blame to the treasury bean counters who cut back on the funding preventing the worhs to carried out in such  way as to maximise the the utilisation on the infrastructure. these would be the same bean counters who did not build the fourth platform at Oxley or wire the fourth track despite their own predictions that it will be needed by 2016, the same bean counters who would not provide the funding to raise or build platforms at carriage floor height at Darra, Oxley and Indoorpilly. obviously part of the Nolan and LABOR legacy that will cost many millions to rectify as it will eventualy need to be at some later date.

[somebody]

Ah, those are the pink crossovers.

The blue crossover does more to reduce freight conflicts than directly for passenger services.

[somebody]

Adding a crossover won't fix that problem.

I do see what you mean with this one.

Solutions include:
(a) more rapid turnarounds
(b) a 4th platform at Petrie
(c) a much larger stabling yard on north side of Petrie - although that does mean a conflicting move in the PM peak for terminating services.

I wonder if (b) is including in Kippa-Ring?

[HappyTrainGuy]

You can cross out C. Petrie will not have any stabling whatsoever. The current stabling will be removed for Kippa Ring works and relocated to a larger stabling facility located outside of Kippa Ring.

[mufreight]

Adding a crossover won't fix that problem.

I do see what you mean with this one.

Solutions include:
(a) more rapid turnarounds
(b) a 4th platform at Petrie
(c) a much larger stabling yard on north side of Petrie - although that does mean a conflicting move in the PM peak for terminating services.

I wonder if (b) is including in Kippa-Ring?

If MBRL is operated as many suggest there will be no Petrie terminators so
(a) is completely irrelevant.
(b) becomes a necessicity if it is to have sufficent capacity to cater for both MBRL and Sunshine Coast services even without the addition? at some time in the future of CAMCOS.
(c) with no terminating services at Petrie and the stabling facilities at Kippa-ring, Caboolture and Nambour is there any need for such a facility at Petrie
One would think that the answers are obvious

[somebody]

Why is (b) a necessity?  I don't see trains from Kippa-Ring or Caboolture using Central platforms 1-4 so I would assume only two platforms would be actually needed at Petrie, although more could increase margin particularly if there is amplification Petrie-Lawnton.

[BrizCommuter]

Why is (b) a necessity?  I don't see trains from Kippa-Ring or Caboolture using Central platforms 1-4 so I would assume only two platforms would be actually needed at Petrie, although more could increase margin particularly if there is amplification Petrie-Lawnton.

Junction stations should ideally have 2 platforms in the merging direction, so 3 is a minimum at Petrie. Depending on track layout, 2 platforms in the diverging direction may also be operationally useful (particularly if the junction if not grade separated).

[somebody]

I can think of a lot of places on Cityrail where there are indeed two platforms in the merging direction.  Why is this so desirable?

Park Rd 2/3 is an example here, although Bowen Hills #1 is a counter, as is Eagle Junction #1.

[HappyTrainGuy]

@mufreight. Apparently they will still retain a few Petrie starters to remove any pressure between Lawnton-Northgate due to the new bus routes feeding into the Kippa Ring line (North Lakes will have new route via the yet to be built North-South Arterial road), the additional walk up patronage from areas with poor coverage, new major housing estates coming up (eg Murrumba Downs, North Lakes and Rothwell), Kippa Ring railway station becoming the new major interchange point and new/upgraded housing development at Bald Hills (Almost finished on Telegraph Road ~50 individual town houses split into two 2 living quarters per house so no back yards ), Bracken Ridge, Fitzgibbon (already well underway) and Carseldine (also well underway but not as fast as Fitzgibbon is going at along with a few property owners holding onto quite large blocks of land) all of which is currently or will happen over the next 5 years.

If there are only going to be 3 platforms for Caboolture, Nambour and Kippa Ring services expect no flyovers for Kippa Ring along with no holding road for Petrie starters ex-Caboolture stabling meaning holding on the main line. Kippa Ring services would also effectivly close the entire line as they traverse multiple roads to access the MBRL.

[mufreight]

@mufreight. Apparently they will still retain a few Petrie starters to remove any pressure between Lawnton-Northgate due to the new bus routes feeding into the Kippa Ring line (North Lakes will have new route via the yet to be built North-South Arterial road), the additional walk up patronage from areas with poor coverage, new major housing estates coming up (eg Murrumba Downs, North Lakes and Rothwell), Kippa Ring railway station becoming the new major interchange point and new/upgraded housing development at Bald Hills (Almost finished on Telegraph Road ~50 individual town houses split into two 2 living quarters per house so no back yards ), Bracken Ridge, Fitzgibbon (already well underway) and Carseldine (also well underway but not as fast as Fitzgibbon is going at along with a few property owners holding onto quite large blocks of land) all of which is currently or will happen over the next 5 years.

If there are only going to be 3 platforms for Caboolture, Nambour and Kippa Ring services expect no flyovers for Kippa Ring along with no holding road for Petrie starters ex-Caboolture stabling meaning holding on the main line. Kippa Ring services would also effectivly close the entire line as they traverse multiple roads to access the MBRL.

If services are going to deadhead from Caboolture stabling or Kippa Ring stabling which would be closer because of the lack of stabling at Petrie it would make sense to operate those services in service improving the frequencies.
From the operating perspective the ideal layout at Petrie is for four platforms and four tracks from Lawnton to a point to the north of the MBRL /NCL junction even if it remains as only three tracks between Lawnton and Northgate.

[BrizCommuter]

I can think of a lot of places on Cityrail where there are indeed two platforms in the merging direction.  Why is this so desirable?

Park Rd 2/3 is an example here, although Bowen Hills #1 is a counter, as is Eagle Junction #1.

2 platforms in the merging direction have operating advantages in terms of scheduling flexibility (in association with reasonable operating margins), and avoids trains waiting outside of platforms a la Bowen Hills.

[somebody]

I propose that Dakabin & Narangba are removed from all the Sunshine Coast trains, and 2 AM peak Petrie trains are extended to Narangba.  That would no longer require southbound trains to use Petrie #1 in the AM peak:

P2: 6.58 Petrie-Richlands All Stations
P3: 7.03 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.04 Narangba-Roma Street All Stations
P3: 7.09 Nambour-all to Narangba, Petrie, Northgate all to Roma Street Express
P2: 7.10 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations - 7:02 arrival
P2: 7.15 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.16 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations - from nth stabling road
P3: 7.21 Caboolture-Ipswich Express
P2: 7.22 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations - 7:14 arrival
P3: 7.27 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.33 Nambour-all to Narangba-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.28 Narangba-Richlands All Stations
P2: 7.34 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations - 7:26 arrival
P2: 7.39 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.40 Petrie-Roma Street All Stations - 7:32 arrival
P3: 7.45 Caboolture-Roma Street Express
P3: 7.51 Nambour-Ipswich Express (Does not stop at Petrie)
P2: 7.52 Petrie-Richlands All Stations - 7:44 arrival

In all cases of reversing, there is 14 minutes between the previous train departing to re-occupy the platform and change ends.  Should be enough.

I still need to check the PM peak.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I doubt they'd bother changing the patterns too much considering the MBRL works for stabling removal/earthworks to the North especially when the third road is temporaly removed.

[somebody]

I doubt they'd bother changing the patterns too much considering the MBRL works for stabling removal/earthworks to the North especially when the third road is temporaly removed.

At first I thought that would be a bit of a problem, however it would be easy enough to run the 7:16am ex-Petrie train out of service to Narangba and turn around there, in the event that the stabling road is removed.  It's a limitation, I agree.

What is an issue is the weird 8:10am and 8:16am Petrie starters - most of the patronage on the CAB line is Petrie-CAB but the nearer parts get a far superior service after 8am ex-PET.  I think on current infrastructure & timetable the 8:16am train needs to wrong road and use Petrie #1.  It's not an issue for 15 minute counter peak frequency though as the northbound trains would be passing Petrie at 8:05am and 8:20am.  An 8:08am arrival allows the required 8 minutes to turn around. 

I wonder if the train from Gympie can be knocked back 3 minutes or so to allow the 7:43 ex-CAB train to run express Petrie-Northgate ahead of the train from GYN and a Petrie starter at around 8:07am instead of 8:10am to run through to IPS.  The 8 minute saving on the 7:43am ex-CAB train is right to reach Bowen Hills at 8:35am which can then form the 8:45am ex-Roma St Richlands train.  The 7:43am NBR arrival cannot be made earlier unless it is made at least 21 minutes earlier to pass the 6:09am Caboolture arrival.  Seems like this train crosses the GYN train at Mooloolah currently.  Moving the cross south to Landsborough or even further south where two platforms are available would be desirable, but not so nice for those seeking to travel to the Sunshine Coast in the morning.

I for one would have the 5:21am ex-Roma St becoming a 5am for the positives.  You could also get rid the NBR shuttle at 7:53am ex-CAB for a through service, at least exp Northgate-PET.

PM peak presents few issues, but I propose extending the 17:14 and 18:02 PET trains to Narangba via Petrie #1, dropping Dakabin & Narangba from the 17:09 and 17:57 trains, having the 17:20 & 17:50 PET trains use platform #3 instead of #2 and reviewing the 17:32 PET train's platform - either retire to stabling, remain as is with 9 minutes either side to reoccupy platform #3 or reverse on #1.  These changes allow 15 minute counter peak frequency from Caboolture passing platform #2 at :28 & :58.  I also think that all trains to/from Nambour should serve Petrie except (perhaps) the GYN trains.

PM peak is probably where a greater benefit would be had by the proposed crossover.

Final point I will make is that I think that Caboolture line counter peak trains should non stop A/W/N/Toombul which would also allow trains to position faster.  The suburbans can handle the load even if it means that they terminate at Northgate to position to Shorncliffe.  Sub 15 minute frequency on the Shorncliffe line in peak is a disgrace.

EDIT: fix link