Murwillumbah Branch Discussion

[Stillwater]

Running XPT to Lismore instead of Casino means a significant track upgrade (lots of old wooden bridges).  NSW government has not been interested in spending the money to reinstate the line.

[somebody]

Simon, there is no Griffth XPT.

Oh, Ok.  I think there used to be.  Probably an explorer/endeavour now.  Perhaps the same thing should be done with the Grafton one, but then that likely requires additional trains for that system.

[Stillwater]

Facts always shed light on an issue and inform better debate:

"A number of timber and some steel bridges around Lismore, near Bangalow and north of Billinudgel require major upgrading or replacement. The deficient condition of the bridges is a key factor in the line being subject to a large number of speed restrictions."

"The Casino – Murwillumbah line is a relatively high cost branch line due to its age, high bridge numbers, curvature, climate, topography, etc. HCS has estimated that the average long term (steady state) maintenance cost would be of the order of $19,200/km (approximately $2.5 million per annum). This compares to other branch lines which have scheduled passenger services which typically have maintenance costs which typically vary from $12,000/km to $15,000/km."

http://www.toot.org.au/dmdocuments/FeasStudyDr12.pdf

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/afc4815bcc4a10ceca256f56001b4a51/$FILE/Final%20Report.pdf

http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/public_submissions/published/files/188_byronshirecouncil_SUB2.pdf

[petey3801]

Facts always shed light on an issue and inform better debate:

"A number of timber and some steel bridges around Lismore, near Bangalow and north of Billinudgel require major upgrading or replacement. The deficient condition of the bridges is a key factor in the line being subject to a large number of speed restrictions."

"The Casino – Murwillumbah line is a relatively high cost branch line due to its age, high bridge numbers, curvature, climate, topography, etc. HCS has estimated that the average long term (steady state) maintenance cost would be of the order of $19,200/km (approximately $2.5 million per annum). This compares to other branch lines which have scheduled passenger services which typically have maintenance costs which typically vary from $12,000/km to $15,000/km."

http://www.toot.org.au/dmdocuments/FeasStudyDr12.pdf

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/afc4815bcc4a10ceca256f56001b4a51/$FILE/Final%20Report.pdf

http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/public_submissions/published/files/188_byronshirecouncil_SUB2.pdf

Vast majority of bridges around Lismore are on the Byron Bay side of Lismore, not the Casino side. The line from Casino to Lismore has very few bridges and was in the best condition (by memory) when the line was closed.

[colinw]

Facts always shed light on an issue and inform better debate:

"A number of timber and some steel bridges around Lismore, near Bangalow and north of Billinudgel require major upgrading or replacement. The deficient condition of the bridges is a key factor in the line being subject to a large number of speed restrictions."

"The Casino – Murwillumbah line is a relatively high cost branch line due to its age, high bridge numbers, curvature, climate, topography, etc. HCS has estimated that the average long term (steady state) maintenance cost would be of the order of $19,200/km (approximately $2.5 million per annum). This compares to other branch lines which have scheduled passenger services which typically have maintenance costs which typically vary from $12,000/km to $15,000/km."

http://www.toot.org.au/dmdocuments/FeasStudyDr12.pdf

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parlment/committee.nsf/0/afc4815bcc4a10ceca256f56001b4a51/$FILE/Final%20Report.pdf

http://www.infrastructureaustralia.gov.au/public_submissions/published/files/188_byronshirecouncil_SUB2.pdf

Facts have to be taken in the context of the discussion.

Bangalow is beyond Lismore, approximately 80% of the way from Lismore to Byron Bay. The condition of bridges around Bangalow is relevant to re-opening to Byron Bay but not Lismore. None of what you said prevents re-opening to Lismore.

Billinudgel is between Byron Bay & Murwillumbah, and definitely not relevant to my suggestion of re-opening to either Lismore or Byron Bay. I completely agree that the condition of the line beyond Byron Bay, and the expense of maintaining the Byron Bay to Murwillumbah section, would prevent any re-opening of that section.

Regarding my original suggestion of re-opening to Lismore, there are a few bridges in the 22km  Casino to Lismore section (over a tributary of the Wilson River called "Back Creek"), and one tunnel (Naughtons Gap).

I am of the opinion that Casino to Lismore could be done reasonably cheaply (similar to the Armidale re-opening some years ago), due to the relatively good track condition & few bridges. Lismore to Byron would be somewhat more expensive, as there are more bridges and one more tunnel (Booyong tunnel). Byron Bay is a major destination, and is still on a relatively direct alignment but with some quite tight curves around Booyong (junction of the former Ballina branch, by the way).

Beyond Byron Bay through Brunswick Heads, Billinudgel, Mooball, etc., to Murwillumbah is a dead loss. It has woeful alignment, many bridges in poor condition, and 7 more tunnels. There are unconfirmed reports that one of the tunnels has a cave in (anyone care to comment, came up on another forum).

IMHO re-opening to Lismore would make considerable sense, and Byron Bay could probably be supported. I definitely do not advocate re-opening beyond Byron Bay ever. Casino to Byron Bay is relatively direct, only has two tunnels, and a couple of major river bridges.  The really expensive bit of the branch line is Byron Bay to Murwillumbah with 7 tunnels, a lot of dodgy old wooden trestles, and a lot of embankment and deep cuttings in landslip prone terrain. I don't have the figures, but would be willing to wager that at least half the expense of maintaining the branch was the 45km from Byron Bay to Murwillumbah through Brunswick Heads and the Burringbar Range.

A final note. It appears the usual self defeating rail attitude is at play here. Have you ever heard anyone ever suggest a road should be closed due to maintenance costs or because a bridge needs work?

[colinw]

Incidentally, I have a family connection to the Murwillumbah Branch. My Great Grandfather was the NSWGR engineer responsible for a section of the line around Eltham, and one of his bridges is in the heritage register:

http://www.heritage.nsw.gov.au/07_subnav_04_2.cfm?itemid=4280409

Statement of Significance

   The Wilsons Creek Underbridge is one of a series of five similar trusses built on the Murwillumbah Line in the mid 1890s and as such it has historic significance as an item of railway infrastructure dating from the earliest development of the original North Coast railway in the late nineteenth century and as an example of the early application of American bridge technology by the NSW Government Railways. The bridge is an example of technology that was technically sophisticated and advanced at the time of construction.

Date Significance Updated: 08 Jul 10

Note: There are incomplete details for a number of items listed in NSW. The Heritage Branch intends to develop or upgrade statements of significance and other information for these items as resources become available.

Description

Designer/Maker:    Engineering staff of the Railway Construction Branch, Department of Public Works
Builder/Maker:    Kerle and Kerle
Construction Years:    1893 - 1894
Physical Description:    The Wilsons Creek Underbridge is a 120-foot (36.6m) steel Pratt truss with one of the original 2 x 42-foot 2-span continuous girder approach viaducts extant. The early 1890s was a transition period for the introduction of steel. The Wilsons Creek truss is steel but the plate web girders are wrought iron.
Physical Condition and/or
Archaeological Potential:    Good 
Current Use:    Carries the Casino to Murwillumbah railway line; services suspended May 2004.

My mother's maiden name was Kerle. She was from the Northern Rivers, born in Kyogle in the 1920s. My uncle (Maurice Kerle) has some wonderful old black & white plates showing the construction of the line around Eltham.  No wonder I get so royally p1ssed off when I see the current condition of the branch.

[Stillwater]

It remains the case ... the NSW government has not been interested in spending the money to reinstate the line.

[colinw]

I  have no doubt you are correct about that.

I don't think the NSW Government would notice if anywhere north of Newcastle slid into the Pacific Ocean.

Like everything in this country, it all comes down to politics, with a bit of (usually distorted) statistics & economics thrown in for justification.

[Gazza]

Ugh why do people care so much about this line? It sucks.

Wake me up when we are discussing a country/intercity line which actually matters.





Etc.

[Stillwater]

Much of NSW coast south to Coffs Harbour is serviced from Brisbane, which is why the NSW Government is not interested in what happens there.  For all intents and purposes, Grafton is the real 'border town'.  Albury is a Victorian town, even gets its news from Melbourne, and a majority supports AFL.  That makes Wagga Wagga the real 'border town' down south.  On the coast heading south, Bega is the start of no man's land.   It won't, but if the federal government announced an investigation into extending narrow gauge passenger rail from Coolangatta to Byron Bay via the coast (not the Lismore-Murwillumbah track), NSW would mount an army to defend the south bank of the Tweed River.

[somebody]

I'm comfortable with colinw's Lismore extension plan so long as opening the track is inexpensive, but I think just going into Brisbane with the Casino XPT would be far better.  Why go so far as Casino but stop short of Brisbane??

[colinw]

I'm comfortable with colinw's Lismore extension plan so long as opening the track is inexpensive, but I think just going into Brisbane with the Casino XPT would be far better.  Why go so far as Casino but stop short of Brisbane??

I'd prefer Brisbane to Lismore as well, much as I'd like to see Lismore at least serviced.

I just think that Casino is a "nowhere" place to use as terminus.

Before getting on my bus home at Casino last Sunday, I spent some time observing the passengers boarding the various connecting buses (run by Sunstate). I didn't do a count, but seemed to me that the passenger numbers boarding the buses through to Lismore & Byron Bay were well down on what they were when the XPT used to run through to those towns. I'd say much of the former Byron Bay pax have been lost either to air from Ballina or Coolangatta, or to direct Pacific Highway bus services.

If rail ever returns to the northern edge of the Northern Rivers, it will either be 1067mm gauge with 25KV wires, or 1435mm gauge light rail with 750V DC wires.  Beyond Lismore is probably dead, and beyond Byron Bay is definitely a goner.

I just wish my dad had taken a camera when he rode the Ballina Branch as a kid!

[colinw]

Ugh why do people care so much about this line? It sucks.

Wake me up when we are discussing a country/intercity line which actually matters.

Thank you for confirming that the people of the Northern Rivers are irrelevant and don't matter.  I'm sure if you lived in the area, or had a family background in the area as I do, you might view things differently.

How about drawing a map of Australia showing which bits you care about.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean you have to have a big  whinge to shut down the discussion.

I actually agree with you about the northern end of the branch, to Murwillumbah. That last 45 or so km from Byron Bay to Murwillumbah really does suck, and had probably outlived its usefulness by the 1960s, by which time the settlement pattern of the area had definitively moved to the coast.

I do not, however, agree that the entire branch is a dead loss, hence advocating that at least the 30km spur to Lismore has a future. Byron Bay I'm not so sure about, but I think it is at least worth discussing with an open mind.

[somebody]

I'd prefer Brisbane to Lismore as well, much as I'd like to see Lismore at least serviced.

I really meant Casino-Brisbane, not via Lismore.  Lismore can be served by connecting coaches IMO.

[colinw]

I'd prefer Brisbane to Lismore as well, much as I'd like to see Lismore at least serviced.

I really meant Casino-Brisbane, not via Lismore.  Lismore can be served by connecting coaches IMO.

Sorry, I wrote that poorly.

I meant that I would prefer an extension of the Casino XPT to Brisbane over an extension of the Casino XPT to Lismore.  I most definitely did not mean either a Lismore to Brisbane rail service, or Brisbane via Lismore (which would need a heck of a lot of new line built for no benefit).

Just bad wording.

Anyway, I suspect any suggestion of resurrecting even the Lismore part of the branch is just p***ing in the wind. Its dead, Jim!

In order of preference, what I'd like to see is:

1. Morning XPT service re-timed out of peak, and afternoon Casino XPT extended to Brisbane. I'd actually use a night train to Sydney if it didn't have that awful bus leg to Casino first. Used to use the M'bah to Sydney XPT, as Roma St to M'Bah was just that bit shorter before hitting the comfort of the train.  The Casino to Brisbane bus leg was painful, due to the condition of the Lismore to Bangalow road. Nearly set off my motion sickness, and at least one kid on the bus did throw up.

2. Morning & Afternoon XPT services swapped, i.e. morning to Casino, afternoon to Brisbane.

3. Casino XPT re-extended to Lismore on re-opened section of the branch.

4. As above but Byron Bay.

A definite NO to re-opening right through to M'bah, and the occasional suggestion of re-opening to M'Bah then extending it to Coolangatta is just foaming crazy talk. (Heck, even my desire to re-open to Lismore is probably foaming crazy talk).

[somebody]

I suspected as much.

[#Metro]

Once again, just like the Toowoomba thread, it's only rail solutions that get any airtime.
All of these hinge on huge cash/huge work/huge infrastructure and have timeframe of eternity.

Get all the bus operators in the area on to a german style ticket and pricing union (verherskerbund or whatever they call it). Get the councils together to pool funds and broker a deal on a regional integrated bus network that crosses council boundaries. It won't be frequent but pulsed or timed would work well.

The swiss manage to have decent PT in their little towns. No reason why it can't be done down there either. The moment you look beyond just trains, suddenly there are more possibilities.

If the bus system is rubbish, fix it up!

It's not just about trains!

[ozbob]

Once again, just like the Toowoomba thread, it's only rail solutions that get any airtime.
All of these hinge on huge cash/huge work/huge infrastructure and have timeframe of eternity.

Get all the bus operators in the area on to a german style ticket and pricing union (verherskerbund or whatever they call it). Get the councils together to pool funds and broker a deal on a regional integrated bus network that crosses council boundaries. It won't be frequent but pulsed or timed would work well.

The swiss manage to have decent PT in their little towns. No reason why it can't be done down there either. The moment you look beyond just trains, suddenly there are more possibilities.

If the bus system is rubbish, fix it up!

It's not just about trains!

This is a thread about the Murwillumbah branch, not surprising it is rail focussed  ...   

[colinw]

What a surprise. Discussion of rail on a rail forum in a thread about a branch line. Well I'll be a monkey's uncle!

Yet another complaint from someone when a thread doesn't conform to their idea of what we should be discussing. 

After riding the "state of the art" coach from Casino last week, I am confident that the only way to fix things up is either a massive investment in roads, or an investment in fixing the rail as far as Lismore or Byron at least.

That coach ride was rough - dinner churning in my guts and threatening to make an unwelcome re-appearance rough. Once we hit the freeway at Bangalow, the ride was much better and nice and fast, so there's your answer! Only 1.5 hours slower to Brisbane than extending the Casino XPT as well, I think that is called progress.

It will be interesting to see if the XPT manages to survive at all once the Pacific Highway is entirely dual carriageway. When I was a kid, the Pacific Hwy through the Northern Rivers was a windy, slow goat track of a road much like the rail line is. In the last 40 years, the road has been rebuilt to a new alignment at a cost of $billions, while the rail remained in "as built" 1880s condition. Then we complain its of no use, condemn it as an antique, and wonder why the rail system dies the death of a thousand cuts. Typical of this country really.

While barrelling along the Chinderah Freeway on the CountryLink coach, I was struck by just what a good rail alignment that freeway section of the Pacific HWY would make. If we ever want to get the QR system down to Byron Bay or Ballina, the alignment is there.  Of course, being rail that is a foaming fantasy and I'm a complete nutbag for even mentioning it, even here on a supposedly pro rail forum.  In any case, that invisible, imaginary line of the NSW border makes such a thing impossible, because we are a unified nation only in name.

I shall rest my case for now. How about we go talk about fixing a Queensland line with 40 km/h curves on a horrible 1880s alignment? I'm sure nobody will condemn that. I refer of course to that other North Coast Line - the one that runs between Nambour and Gympie.

[#Metro]

Colin, you're welcome to discuss whatever you want. What I am saying is, it's unlikely to be funded, ever.
So I'm actually agreeing with Gazza here. The reason why there is a local campaign is because transport in the area is inadequate. Trains are not likely to come back - rough ride or not. You know, my bus sometimes gives me a rough ride and I'd much prefer a ferrari taking me to work; do you think I will get it?

[Gazza]

Thank you for confirming that the people of the Northern Rivers are irrelevant and don't matter.  I'm sure if you lived in the area, or had a family background in the area as I do, you might view things differently.

Why would I think about family ties? Family ties aren't the basis of sound transport policy.

How about drawing a map of Australia showing which bits you care about.

Nothing to do with that.
IMO, the only rail services worth running are ones that will get a decent number of of passengers. That goes for both city or country.

Not because a particular town sits on a set of tracks once laid in the 1800s, so is entiltled to the service.
Not because "it would be good for tourism".
Not because people 'prefer' a train or the bus makes them carsick.

If a rail service is not getting a decent number of passengers, then its not doing its job...It's not saving pollution, its making bugger all dent in the road toll, its taking bugger all cars off the road, its not actually servicing many people, and its bleeding money away from areas where better work could be done. A gold plated welfare service basically.

And to me, these services will never get anywhere. These lines are basket cases and will forever be slow and crap, and we have enough of those type of lines in areas of actual need (Eg SC to be dealing with for the time being), they don't have freight to prop them up... the train will always be slow. You could run them several times a day (A vast improvement on the 1-2 per day) and they'd still be unpopular, because of  this slowness....
I just don't think there is that much of a market in Aus for these 8-12h+ rail journeys.

I posted that V/Line as an example of a proper country service. The lines (Well, RFR ones anyway) are quick enough, close enough to the capital, they go to the right places, and frequent enough that it just works.

[ghostryder]

Shane
With the fiasco that the Main South between  Sydney and Melbourne has turned into money that was to be spent on the NSW North Coast line has been transferred to fix the issues there, hence many of the curve easing projects that were planned remain just that planned. Only those with watertight contracts or that were already underway were allowed to continue. The downside not many got started and they are scattered between Gloucester and the Border.

scott