Article: Timetable off the rails

[Fares_Fair]

Article: Timetable off the rails
by Trevor Hockins
Sunsine Coast Daily
30th March 2012 4:00 AM

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2012/03/30/timetable-off-the-rails/

THE former state government seemed to have little intention of improving rail services to the Sunshine Coast despite huge future planning demands placed upon the area.

Commuter advocate Jeff Addison made the comment while saying he expected Coast commuters to be far better off under the new LNP government.

"Look, it appears the former government did not have the slightest intention of doing the right thing by the Coast," he said.

Mr Addison, who works at an engineering firm in Brisbane, has been a commuter for 13 years. The Palmwoods resident spends about four hours a day getting to and from work.

"It has been getting worse each year, without a doubt," he said.

Though no official figures are available, it appeared that about 8000 Coast commuters a week used the rail service.

"I have no doubt it would be a lot more if the services were more frequent and did not have regular delays," he said.

Mr Addison said that while rail duplication to Nambour had been put off by the former Bligh government until at least 2031, the government had planned to duplicate rail to suburban Springfield.

He said the Coast line served a population of 330,000, which was projected to grow to 417,000, while the Springfield line, west of Brisbane, had 23,000.

"How can they explain that?".

Mr Addison said building double tracks from Beerburrum to Landsborough and eventually to Nambour would be a huge jobs boost.

He said the work to Landsborough was costed at $300 million and the duplication from Landsborough to Nambour at $1.7 billion.

It was estimated that duplication would provide benefits of $4.5 billion to the region and generate more than 2700 jobs a year for the seven-year construction period.

Mr Addison said he had been assured the LNP would re-examine the duplication schedule

The LNP promised:

•Trips to be free after nine journeys a week, compared with 10 at present
•Planned 15% fare increases in January and again in January, 2014, will be halved, saving commuters to the Coast more than $4500 over three years
•Reintroduce discounted fares for weekly commuters
•Review public transport structure

[ozbob]

Now that the local members predominantly are the government it will be a real test ...

[Stillwater]

Fiona Simpson (Maroochydore) and Andrew Powell (Glass House) have advocated the SC rail upgrade in the past.  Ms Simpson has been 'neutralised' by being appointed Speaker.  She can hardly participate in the debate on the floor of the Parliament.  Today's Courier-Mail reports that Mr Powell will not get a Ministerial post, so will not be able to push for SCL duplication within Cabinet.  SC MPs will all have a say in party room, but among competing cabals.  Getting your pet project up would be like a Shakespeare orphan character fighting the other orphans for a crust of bread.  Divide and conquer.

[ozbob]

You have to bit careful with simplistic population comparisons as well.  Greater Springfield will have a population equivalent to Darwin being able to access the rail immediately. A little different from the Sunshine Coast.

Springfield was facilitated in part by a proactive developer as well.

See --> http://www.greaterspringfield.com.au/FileLibrary/slc0115993_sp_bro.pdf

No one disputes the need for Sunshine Coast upgrade, the problem was the delaying of the Beerburrum - Landsborough project, has now made the upgrade for the rest very costly.

[Fares_Fair]

Drawin's population is 127,500, still well less than half of the Sunshine Coast.
It was assisted by a developer deal.

[somebody]

Drawin's population is 127,500, still well less than half of the Sunshine Coast.
It was assisted by a developer deal.

The line is a considerable distance from that population though.

Hopefully, there are a number of people who work and/or study on the Sunshine Coast itself rather than commute into Brisbane.

I'd wonder if the population within 5km of a station is more than Darwin?

[ozbob]

Drawin's population is 127,500, still well less than half of the Sunshine Coast.
It was assisted by a developer deal.

You are missing the point Fares Fair, that population is not widespead, it is next to the rail line.
Different situation.  That is why the project stacked up strongly, and the corridor was developed into the plan.  It was proceeded with a different time and frame work than the Sunshine Coast.

But we agree the upgrade of the Sunshine Coast line is a high priority, for freight as much as passenger.  A compelling argument and one the LNP will not be able dismiss easily from here, particularly if they want to stay in government.

[Arnz]

Drawin's population is 127,500, still well less than half of the Sunshine Coast.
It was assisted by a developer deal.

The line is a considerable distance from that population though.

Hopefully, there are a number of people who work and/or study on the Sunshine Coast itself rather than commute into Brisbane.

I'd wonder if the population within 5km of a station is more than Darwin?

There are a number of students from the Northern Suburbs/Northern Region that reverse commute to USC most mornings.  Morning 615s are well patronised, on top of the USC shuttle charters that leaves from North Lakes and Caboolture operated by Sunbus.

[Gazza]

He said the Coast line served a population of 330,000, which was projected to grow to 417,000, while the Springfield line, west of Brisbane, had 23,000.

"How can they explain that?".

We've already explained that to you, several times.

Catchment areas.....
(And population density)

Rail lines only get regular passengers within a feasible bus/park and ride/walk up catchment.

It's very misleading to use the whole SC population, because for the main coastal strip the line is 15km away, so that limits the type of trips it will get used for to basically people going to Brisbane, and some local use along the inland parts of the SC it does serve.

Its not like the Springfield line, which will get many more trips because the CBD is so much closer, such that there as incentive to do the trip more often...Also consider shopping at Indro, going to UQ and so forth.

To put it simply, someone will go to a place 20km on PT more often than a place 100km away.

What is there of interest in the catchment of the Nambour line?

If the existing line really properly 'served' all 330,000 people on the SC, then they wouldn't be proposing CAMCOS, would they?

It's a bit like saying the GC light rail will serve 500,000 people.....Errm, no, it will only get regular usage from the people along its 13km length, plus the feeder buses. Someone down in say Cooloongatta won't use it as much as someone in Parkwood.
Again, thats why it has the future stages....so it can serve these people.


If the Caboolture to Ipswich line was the only one in Brisbane, would you say it served 2 mil people, just because its in a blob of urban area called greater Brisbane?

When talking about the passenger catchment of the Nambour line, then north of Beerwah you should only count the towns along the line north of there (Track sharing will occur south of Beerwah)...That includes Landsborough, Nambour, Palmwoods, Eudlo etc etc.
And I think you'd find that population significantly less than the 330,000 figure you state.

[Stillwater]

Stole the words from my mouth Arnz.  In addition to USC students, there are 5000 students studying at the Central Queensland Uni Noosa campus.

[#Metro]

I just can't believe they let an entire region without decent rail connection.

[Arnz]

Stole the words from my mouth Arnz.  In addition to USC students, there are 5000 students studying at the Central Queensland Uni Noosa campus.

Although there are little CQU students from down South.  CQU's catchment is mostly Noosa and the surrounding areas north (Gympie/Hervey Bay) and south (as far as Caloundra at most).

Whereas the USC catchment extends to Northern Brisbane as well as far north to Gympie (Hence the charter shuttle buses from Sunbus)

[Arnz]

When talking about the passenger catchment of the Nambour line, then north of Beerwah you should only count the towns along the line north of there (Track sharing will occur south of Beerwah)...That includes Landsborough, Nambour, Palmwoods, Eudlo etc etc.
And I think you'd find that population significantly less than the 330,000 figure you state.

Technically the SCRC borders start just south of Beerburrum Station, and covers all up to Cooran iirc.  So basically if you're talking by catchment in the SCRC the only stations that need excluding is Elimbah, Traveston and Gympie North

[Fares_Fair]

Ok, thank you to all for the comments.

Since there is no CAMCOS and no other method of PT between the SC and Brisbane, I use the analogy given.
Happy to use catchments when we get some ...

Many Sunshine Coast commuters I know, come from Noosa, Caloundra, Kawana, Buderim and Maroochydore.
Just because they do not fit into the 'catchment' definition doesn't mean they do not use what little PT there is.

What size cut-down population figure are we looking at for just 'catchments' suggested ?

[Gazza]

Nambour - 9744
Yandina - 1075
Woombye -2094
Palmwoods - 3576
Eudlo - 852
Landsborough - 2805
Beerwah - 1626
Glasshouse Mtns - 1853
Beerburrum - 288
Elimbah - 684

24570

Double that number to account for localities and people on properties

So say 50,000 people in the useful catchment of the line.


I totally acknowledge people come from further afield to use the line...Heck I knew someone who used to drive from Sunshine Beach to Milton 3 times a week for work.

But the point is people travelling long distances to the line itself aren't the market you base your patronage figures around, because they are a more hardy passenger at the extreme end.

In a European city you might get 50% of people on PT, but you wont get 50% of people using PT, but coming 100 km each day, because a commute that long is just too much for the average person, and many jobs wouldn't warrant it. See the difference?

Right now, in Springfield, I think the furthest anyone is from the line is 3km, which is well and truly a ideal distance for feeder buses, and an easy cycle too!
With the way the area is going to fill out (Check out the plans) nobody is really going to be too far away..like 5km at most.

You seem to be viewing the SC rail line purely as something to get commuters too and from the CBD, and naturally people tolerate a longer travel distance for that type of journey.

But what you aren't realising is that the Springfield line caters to so much more, because it goes somewhere more useful, and is in close proximity to what Brisbane has to offer, so it will get lots of other types of trips too.

[Fares_Fair]

Thanks Gazza,

But there is no CAMCOS line and we know that real life people do come from all over the Sunshine Coast to use it, NOT just those in its 'catchment.'
We will have to agree to disagree here.

On that basis, I believe my position is valid.

[Gazza]

OK, I'll put one example of what I mean very simply.

Do you use the Sunshine Coast line to go to Myer?

Because I can, (and do), do that on the Ipswich line, by getting off at Indroopilly.

On the other train lines, people could do the same sort of thing at Michelton, Toombul, Strathpine etc.

That's just one example of a trip type the SC line doesn't cater to.

[Fares_Fair]

OK, I'll put one example of what I mean very simply.

Do you use the Sunshine Coast line to go to Myer?

Because I can, (and do), do that on the Ipswich line, by getting off at Indroopilly.

On the other train lines, people could do the same sort of thing at Michelton, Toombul, Strathpine etc.

That's just one example of a trip type the SC line doesn't cater to.

I acknowledge that yes other trip types do occur, no problem with that.
Also it's a 2 way line and there are many reverse peak direction commuters as Arnz and SW mention.

But what has that got to do with the fact that there is just a single rail line (literally and figuratively) that services the Sunshine Coast region at this point in time?
A population of 330,000 plus and predicted to be 508,400 by 2031.
A further increase of 87,000 from Caloundra South and Palmview within 10 years.

We both acknowledge that it is not just people within the technical 'catchment' that use it, but the entire Sunshine Coast region.
That is a perfectly valid statement and argument to use IMHO.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I wonder if anyone makes the trip from Woombye to Maccas just outside Nambour station...... Is that marketable?

[Stillwater]

I would say 'yes', but marketable to a particular group -- teenagers who do not yet own a car.  Nambour is a socialising point for this demographic.  Once they or one of their mates has a car, the destination is Mooloolabah where the nightclubs and brothels (or so I am told by a 24-year-old male) are.

I am told the practice is to gather at a mates place early in the evening to drink booze (because it is easier and cheaper to bring oneself to the threshold of drunkedness that way rather than pay bar prices for alcohol), then drive to the pub or nightclub to party, returning in the early hours of the morning -- a group of merry friends, night, sometimes raining, windy roads - you get the picture.

Even sober, groups of young adults drive all over the Coast to particupate in sport, or to cheer their friends on.

There is a strong hoticultural and agribusiness economy on the Coast.  Workers tire themselves doing manual work in the fields, then drive home drowsy and fatigued.

Every month or so on the Sunny Coast we hear about a young person, or a group of young people, coming to grief on one of the many local roads joining the various communities on the Coast.  This region has one of the highest stats for road deaths per 1000 people in the state.

[Gazza]

OK, I'll put one example of what I mean very simply.

Do you use the Sunshine Coast line to go to Myer?

Because I can, (and do), do that on the Ipswich line, by getting off at Indroopilly.

On the other train lines, people could do the same sort of thing at Michelton, Toombul, Strathpine etc.

That's just one example of a trip type the SC line doesn't cater to.

I acknowledge that yes other trip types do occur, no problem with that.
Also it's a 2 way line and there are many reverse peak direction commuters as Arnz and SW mention.

But what has that got to do with the fact that there is just a single rail line (literally and figuratively) that services the Sunshine Coast region at this point in time?
A population of 330,000 plus and predicted to be 508,400 by 2031.
A further increase of 87,000 from Caloundra South and Palmview within 10 years.

We both acknowledge that it is not just people within the technical 'catchment' that use it, but the entire Sunshine Coast region.
That is a perfectly valid statement and argument to use IMHO.

But the point is you were having a go at the Springfield line and making it out as if it was unworthy or something, and basing your argument purely on the population each serves, completely ignoring the fact it is trip generators and population density that determines how a line gets used overall, not just the population of an 'area' that may or may not be relevant to the line.

And thats what I take a problem with.
I'm all for getting SC duplicated, thats why I made the poster etc and helped with feedback that document.
But please don't make it out as if its some sort of competition, and rig the statistics to make anything non SC look bad.

2 way line, yes, but Springfield has a uni campus, and other lines in SEQ have various trip generators at the other end that generates bi directional traffic.
The other lines have stronger two way traffic IMO.

What I don't agree with is that you assert that because some people use the line from a long distance away, is evidence its useful or has a potential to attract the majority of people from that far away.

And obviously if the only PT option between the SC and Brisbane, its got a monopoly on that market, and because to get to Brisbane from anywhere on the SC, you'll go somewhere nearish to the line.

It's like, even if the line gets duplicated and gets half hourly services, its still not going to be that a popular line with passengers, because there just aren't enough trip generators within easy reach of the line, and the majority of population is too far east for it to be any good for north south travel.

I mean, really? An influx of people will suddenly start commuting from Noosa or whatever with a duplicated line? Righto  
Some might, but, a drop in the ocean in the scheme of things.

As I've tried to say a few times now, the bulk of pax carried by any railway will be those within a reasonable catchment of the line.

And when CAMCOS opens you can bet that will canibalise most of those trips.

[Stillwater]

Gympie and Nambour are in the same heath region and most of the more complex diagnostic and specialist medical referrals from across the Sunshine Coast are to the medical precinct around the Nambour Hospital.  An older demographioc requiring medical treatment at Nambour gravitate there by bus and train for treatment as an out patient or to have a check-up with a specialist.

South of Nambour, it is easy to jump on a train and travel to Nambour or Maroochydore by public transport for that 'big shop' item (new computer, TV or lounge chairs, other major household goods).

Bruce Highway between Caloundra turn-off and Nambour is being widened to cater for local traffic movements to-from Nambour, Caloundra, Buderim and Maroochydore.  There is considerable movement of people to and from the rail spine and the Coast.

[Gazza]

But the need for a longer transfer makes the trips less attractive than ones with a shorter transfer ride surely? Thats transport 101.

Again, I'm not denying the line gets used, even in ways that are difficult journeys.

But surely anyone can see a train with a 15km bus transfer is less attractive than a train with a 2km bus transfer?

[Stillwater]

Reading and understanding this illuminates the mind about the points under discussion.

http://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/sitePage.cfm?code=transport-strategy#scsts