Article: Bid to end timetables

[Golliwog]

TT, you said I only offered excuses and no solutions so here goes for turning trains at Y'pilly.

You could do it in a minute or two if you had a crew waiting to swap. This is done every morning at FG for the just past 8 express. Up go your labour costs as you now have an extra crew who also needs to serve a minimum shift time. Where would this crew wait at Y'pilly? Would these trains fit in the timetable properly to give an even frequency back to the city or would you have to do something with the Beenleigh starters which could force a change with the GC trains as well. Still no promise that there wouldn't be any issue at Y'pilly with freight and other pax services.

If you want to use Tennyson then you may need extra station staff to ensure no pax are left on the train while it is out of service which would be expensive if its only for two trains an hour. You still need to take account of the freight trains that use Tennyson, which has an impact on the Cleveland line as they run freighters on one of the pax track at times as a passing loop, which may impact on Merivale bridge services if you have to rejig one of those freighters.

Any of these potential shifts in train times could end up with trains needing to pass each other where they can't leading to delays or reduced services, or extra infrastructure costs to build an extra track for passing. Sure you could just knock off a few freight trains, but good luck getting the OK to do that. As soon as you start talking new infrastructure on running tracks you're looking at big $ and time.

Just to reiterate, I have never said I don't want higher off-peak frequencies, I'm just being realistic, you can't just add new services without looking at all the many conflict points on the network

[somebody]

Isn't there a bus every 15mins these days to Indro from UQ? There's one every 5mins or so to Toowong.

Not consistently out of peak, and definitely not out of semesters.

E.g. from 12:35pm to 12:59pm ex-Indro C there are no services.

http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/network-information/timetables/120123-427,428,432.pdf

[#Metro]

You could do it in a minute or two if you had a crew waiting to swap. This is done every morning at FG for the just past 8 express. Up go your labour costs as you now have an extra crew who also needs to serve a minimum shift time. Where would this crew wait at Y'pilly? Would these trains fit in the timetable properly to give an even frequency back to the city or would you have to do something with the Beenleigh starters which could force a change with the GC trains as well. Still no promise that there wouldn't be any issue at Y'pilly with freight and other pax services.

If you want to use Tennyson then you may need extra station staff to ensure no pax are left on the train while it is out of service which would be expensive if its only for two trains an hour. You still need to take account of the freight trains that use Tennyson, which has an impact on the Cleveland line as they run freighters on one of the pax track at times as a passing loop, which may impact on Merivale bridge services if you have to rejig one of those freighters.

Any of these potential shifts in train times could end up with trains needing to pass each other where they can't leading to delays or reduced services, or extra infrastructure costs to build an extra track for passing. Sure you could just knock off a few freight trains, but good luck getting the OK to do that. As soon as you start talking new infrastructure on running tracks you're looking at big $ and time.

Your reply belies the fact that once again, almost all of your response is dedicated to detailing problems, and zero of it is dedicated to solutions. I get it - the system has problems - but what system doesn't? Fact remains, service is terrible, we are still paying for truly awful service, - what solutions are there?

Previous posters on this forum have already established where frequent service can run now on current infrastructure.
Nobody said overnight, nobody said do the impossible.

[#Metro]

At some point in the future QR will have to decide whether it is a passenger system or a freight system. Being both may mean the worst of both worlds. At the moment the network is both AND long distance - this constraint will become restrictive over time.

[#Metro]

See what you mean, didnt think of doing it like that, what i thought you could do is have the 4 all stoppers per hour to kuraby, WITH two of those all stoppers continuing to Beenleigh. Surely that wouldnt put too much of a strain on the infrastructure.

NOW we are talking solutions!!! 

[Arnz]

What if you did sent the 4tph from Ferny Grove, sent two of them to Kuraby and sent two of them to Beenleigh, that would provide upto 4tph to Kuraby and still keep 2tph to Beenleigh and 2tph to Gold Coast?

4tph to Kuraby, 2tph express Park Road to Kuraby then all to Beenleigh and 2tph Gold Coast express would be fantastic, but I don't know if it could be supported on the current infrastructure in both directions.  4 tracks from Yeerongpilly to Kuraby would fix the problem easily, and would be a better investment than extending the 3rd track further south.

Coopers Plains at least improves the inner city frequency and is a convenient turn-back location, having 3 platforms.

See what you mean, didnt think of doing it like that, what i thought you could do is have the 4 all stoppers per hour to kuraby, WITH two of those all stoppers continuing to Beenleigh. Surely that wouldnt put too much of a strain on the infrastructure.

Think that would slow down the Gold Coasters, would be better to all-stop the GC trains at that point to maximise the double track capacity south of Kuraby.

[Golliwog]

At some point in the future QR will have to decide whether it is a passenger system or a freight system. Being both may mean the worst of both worlds. At the moment the network is both AND long distance - this constraint will become restrictive over time.

The thing is though, you can't just say "no rail freight" or "no pax" until you improve the infrastructure. I'd say it is restrictive already, or aren't you noticing they things I've pointed out? Things like CRR though are working to improve the dedicated freight tracks, though 'pax' tracks would still need to be needed for passing.

In terms of solutions, I don't pretend to know all the details of freight and other runs on the network,so what am i meant to offer on that front? But with what I offered focussed on the negatives it because that's kind of what matters when you're looking at implementing extra trains. There's no point even considering it if it can't mesh with existing services without requiring additional infrastructure.

If no one is talking about doing this over night, then could you please cut down on some of the incessant complaints about poor service frequency and why aren't they fixing it? A lot of it comes off as "give xyz to me, and there is no reason I shouldn't have had this yesterday."

[HappyTrainGuy]

At some point in the future QR will have to decide whether it is a passenger system or a freight system. Being both may mean the worst of both worlds. At the moment the network is both AND long distance - this constraint will become restrictive over time.

QR know how to operate good train services be it passenger or freight. Its Government cost cutting on infrastructure and Translink's antitrain stance that are providing the crapola passenger services and other problems with freight/passenger movements as a result.

[Jonas Jade]

If no one is talking about doing this over night, then could you please cut down on some of the incessant complaints about poor service frequency and why aren't they fixing it? A lot of it comes off as "give xyz to me, and there is no reason I shouldn't have had this yesterday."

Because this is a lobby group trying to get better services for everyone.

If you're happy with the service as is, and don't think improvements should be made, why are you here?

By all means no one here is stopping you heading on down to Yeronga station at 9:15am tomorrow for your next service just outside of peak  

[SurfRail]

By that method it appears you would need to use the low level platforms from Fruitgrove to Altandi for all-stoppers (which due to the project scope being so cheap were not raised even though they could have been...) - but in the interests of getting frequency, it may be worth pursuing.

[somebody]

Let me know what you think  

Gold Coast trains are heading north through platform #2 at about :16 & :46 while the Kuraby trains are heading south on the same track at the same time.

Also using a side turnback on platform #3 @Kuraby is inferior to a centre turnback on platform #2.  Such a set up has a conflicting move for no real reason.

[somebody]

It is possible but requires the Gold Coast trains being slowed in one direction.  I feel this makes the idea a non starter.

[#Metro]

It is possible but requires the Gold Coast trains being slowed in one direction.  I feel this makes the idea a non starter.

FULL STEAM AHEAD with the "Fairfield Solution" 2051!!!     

[Mr X]

HBU wouldn't mind some extra 196s his way.... 

[SurfRail]

If a solution can be found which allows 15 minute frequencies all the way to Beenleigh, which only involves a few extra stops for the GC trains to avoid them running up the arse of Beenleigh trains, I could live with that.

[#Metro]

How is this though? I have tweaked the timetable slightly, with minor departure time changes at Beenleigh for inbound trains and Central for Outbound trains (also checked to see if these would cause any conflict with any other lines inner city such as Cleveland and it wont).

The green cells at kuraby are green as it can provide an OPTIONAL stop at Kuraby however with this timetabling I have done, there is no need and trains can continue to run express. The kuraby all stopper which leaves after the Gold Coast Train passes through will start on Platform 2 and then use platform 3 up to Coopers Plains. Gold Coast trains will run on Platform 3 up to Coopers plains and then continue on normal tracks to City. From the City, Kuraby all stoppers will use platform 2 from Coopers to Kuraby, so that the overlapping Gold Coast trains can use Platform 1 from Coopers to Kuraby, and continue their journey to Varsity Lakes.

Gold coast trains won't be slowed heading inbound as the Allstopper Kuraby will wait for them as they pass through Kuraby and Gold Coast Trains won't be slowed Outbound as there is a 3 minute gap which could be turned into a 4 or 5 minute gap between the Kuraby service and Gold Coast Service arriving at Coopers Plains.

It's nice to be discussing potential solutions 

[Cam]

skinny6: Your suggested timetable has a nice connection at Coopers Plains for those wanting to travel from between Dutton Park & Salisbury (inclusive) to Beenleigh & the Gold Coast.

[somebody]

Trains are travelling in both directions simultaneously on Platform #2 between Fruitgrove and Kuraby.  :52-:54 & :22-:24

[somebody]

Looks like it can, and this has a bit more margin when things go wrong.  Still not much margin though, and it cannot be sustained counter peak.

I might need to think about this some more.

[SurfRail]

Beenleigh is the only real big impediment to this sort of thing though because of Gold Coast track-sharing.  Most of the network can sustain 15 minute off-peak frequencies NOW, without infrastructure upgrades.  Certain upgrades will just make it easier to roll that out further (eg 15 min to Shorncliffe and Cleveland when the end-of-line duplications are completed).

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm on my phone so I can't see it but what about level crossing downtimes?

[ozbob]

I'm on my phone so I can't see it but what about level crossing downtimes?

Ammm.......................  get of the phone  ....

[Arnz]

I put a timetable together that enable 20min from Ips to Cab, the current trains would provide 2 out of the 3 trains required. The 3rd train is then a IMU running direct from Rosewood to up the NCL hourly, so you basically have SMU SMU IMU every 60min. Stopping pattern for all trains would see limited stops between Corinda and Nthgate with Richlands to Petrie running also on 20min but 10min apart in city from western/Nth services.

I would assume the stopping patterns is Darra to Milton stopping Indooroopilly, stops all city stations to Bowen Hills, then express to Petrie stopping EJ and Northgate.

(Gympie trains obviously excluded from this pattern, they run exp BHills to Cab on the suburbans as a separate sector).

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm on my phone so I can't see it but what about level crossing downtimes?

Ammm.......................  get of the phone  ....

But then what would I do on the wifi train. LAN party anyone?

[somebody]

I'm on my phone so I can't see it but what about level crossing downtimes?

Can't imagine it would be an issue outside of peak hour.

[SurfRail]

There will be no money left for new big ticket road projects once Airport Link is finished (except for upgrades when taken over the length of longer roads such as the Bruce).  I think there is a case to plumbing some of the dwindling road budget into grade sepping, especially the significant and well-known trouble spots (Fruitgrove, Coopers Plains, Geebung, Telegraph Rd etc). 

Anybody remember the budget for Beerwah?

[Golliwog]

I'm on my phone so I can't see it but what about level crossing downtimes?

Ammm.......................  get of the phone  ....

But then what would I do on the wifi train. LAN party anyone?

Haha, you could try but they have a download limit. I forget what it was but I hit it the other day when I told my phone to do some app updates. It does reset though, 4 hours after you first connect.

[Fares_Fair]

There will be no money left for new big ticket road projects once Airport Link is finished (except for upgrades when taken over the length of longer roads such as the Bruce).  I think there is a case to plumbing some of the dwindling road budget into grade sepping, especially the significant and well-known trouble spots (Fruitgrove, Coopers Plains, Geebung, Telegraph Rd etc).  

Anybody remember the budget for Beerwah?

$70 million.

From TrackStar Alliance

The initial program of projects included:
• $298m Caboolture to Beerburrum Track Duplication
• Beerburrum to Landsborough Track Duplication (Design only)  this is a prevarication, original works list was to construct!
• $324m Robina to Varsity Lakes Rail Extension
• $268m Corinda to Darra Rail Upgrade

The alliance program expanded progressively from the original four projects concentrated in South East Queensland and worth $660m in 2006 to the current total of nine rail, road and power strengthening projects worth $1,100m and extending into the Central Queensland coal rail network.

The additional projects include:
• $70m Beerwah Road over Rail Crossing
• $30m Bolingbroke Power Feeder Station in the Goonyella Coal System
• $30m Roma St Power Feeder Station and Taringa Track Section Cabin in Brisbane metropolitan area
• $30m Dalrymple Bay Coal Terminal Power Feeder Station in the Goonyella Coal System
• $54.7m Raglan Power Feeder Station in the Blackwater Coal System
• $142m Blackwater Power Systems Upgrade
• Keperra to Ferny Grove Track Duplication (Planning study)
• Varsity Lakes to Tugun Extension (Planning Study)
• Kuraby to Kingston Duplication (Planning Study)

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Arnz]

I put a timetable together that enable 20min from Ips to Cab, the current trains would provide 2 out of the 3 trains required. The 3rd train is then a IMU running direct from Rosewood to up the NCL hourly, so you basically have SMU SMU IMU every 60min. Stopping pattern for all trains would see limited stops between Corinda and Nthgate with Richlands to Petrie running also on 20min but 10min apart in city from western/Nth services.

I would assume the stopping patterns is Darra to Milton stopping Indooroopilly, stops all city stations to Bowen Hills, then express to Petrie stopping EJ and Northgate.

(Gympie trains obviously excluded from this pattern, they run exp BHills to Cab on the suburbans as a separate sector).

Actually I don't care which stations the trains stop at to much as it makes little difference, but the train needs to have sufficent stops removed to enable it to gain 4-6min from an all stopper. This means clockwork timetable through the city and less likely a delay will affect another train. Provides a regular spacing for other trains to cross the mains.

At the major transfer stations of Darra and Petrie, you need sufficent time for a person pushing a pram or using cane to cross platforms via the lifts to go from express to all stopper and viceversa. I therefore suggested 5min.

Actuals stops, I'll take advice from anyone, but thinking
Inner West - Miltion, Toowong, Indo, Corinda(?). Leaves 6 non stop stations, so about 3-4min saved.
Inner Nth - EJ, NG. this cuts 4 stations, only 2-3min saving so could do with a few more skips further nth. I was going to drop the lowest 2-4 stations from the peak hour survey.

The Gympie lander train is run as a pure extension of one of the NCL service during the day (can still use ICE sets). Only 2 stops different on current timetable, my proposal is the same number of stops? Trying add another train on the single track NCL just means something else has to give.

Regards
Shane

Inner/West - the current stopping pattern saves 8 mins.  A line needs to be drawn on the number of stops on the inner-west express, otherwise people from the other stations will complain about being hard done by whenever a station is added.  I think the current express pattern is fine, adding a stop adds 1-2 mins on travel time.

Inner/North - Due to sectorisation, all trains on the mains (Caboolture and Nambour) now stops all stations to Northgate before running express and vice-versa.  Capacity on the mains is 20tph+ on 3 min headways, I'm not sure about the suburbans.  In a non-CRR scenario, If you had the suburban lines take up the slack in off-peak (Shorncliffe, Airport, Doomben, etc) by having the Airport trains stop at Albion and Wooloowin for example, would enable both Caboolture and Nambour trains to skip the inner north stations once again.

Travel Time between Caboolture and Central stopping all stations is currently 1hr 2 minutes (62 minutes).  An express to Caboolture, including some selected Nambour peak trains (exp Northgate to Petrie) in peak takes 54 minutes, In addition the off-peak/weekend and most peak ex-Nambour express takes 50 minutes (express NG to Caboolture, stopping Petrie), and a express ex-Gympie takes 44 minutes (express Bowen Hills to Caboolture).  

In the pre-June 6 timetable, a pre-sectorisation express from Nambour took 47 mins from Caboolture (Bowen Hills to Caboolture stopping Northgate and Petrie).  Post sectorisation added 3 minutes with the all-stopping to/from Northgate.

[Stillwater]

It is good that Merseytravel lets you print out an individual timetable for your local train station.

http://www.merseytravel.gov.uk/articleimages/Northern%20Line%20Pocket%20%20Rail%20Timetables%20from%2011%20December%202011.pdf