Reducing freight conflicts

[somebody]

I think this is hard.

The most critical move in the network is from the north to South Brisbane.  Assuming there would be 4/hour Ferny Grove-Coopers Plains + 4/hour Airport express to Coopers Plains + 4/hour to Manly, then that means 3 trains in every 15 minute window.  Even if the Coopers Plains train is 3 minutes behind the express, that still leaves a 12 minute gap which needs to have 2 trains inserted into it.  I think the Cleveland/Manly train needs to be reasonably close to another train, which isn't ideal from a reliability standpoint.  Also, running via Exhibition just isn't practical if it is to conflict with every train on the network with our desired train numbers.  It needs to run via Central, at least in the southbound direction.  Possibly the gaps can be coordinated on the Ipswich line to allow it to run via Exhibition heading north.

What about the 5th track from near Milton to Exhibition?  That should really help in my proposed 8/hour Ipswich line scenario, although I think they can live without it.  Probably not needed in a 6/hour scenario.

[SurfRail]

Only decent fix will be some flyovers or underpasses to allow freight traffic to transit from Normanby to Moolabin via Sherwood without interfering with the suburban tracks.  Due to the nature of freight I doubt timetabling or limiting it to the wee hours will really solve this.

[somebody]

Only decent fix will be some flyovers or underpasses to allow freight traffic to transit from Normanby to Moolabin via Sherwood without interfering with the suburban tracks.  Due to the nature of freight I doubt timetabling or limiting it to the wee hours will really solve this.

Surely that depends on the 5th track around Roma St west.

Once that is done, I think it will be workable to have a flat junction, but a flyover would be good.  So banish freight from the Merivale Bridge?

[mufreight]

I think this is hard.

The most critical move in the network is from the north to South Brisbane.  Assuming there would be 4/hour Ferny Grove-Coopers Plains + 4/hour Airport express to Coopers Plains + 4/hour to Manly, then that means 3 trains in every 15 minute window.  Even if the Coopers Plains train is 3 minutes behind the express, that still leaves a 12 minute gap which needs to have 2 trains inserted into it.  I think the Cleveland/Manly train needs to be reasonably close to another train, which isn't ideal from a reliability standpoint.  Also, running via Exhibition just isn't practical if it is to conflict with every train on the network with our desired train numbers.  It needs to run via Central, at least in the southbound direction.  Possibly the gaps can be coordinated on the Ipswich line to allow it to run via Exhibition heading north.

What about the 5th track from near Milton to Exhibition?  That should really help in my proposed 8/hour Ipswich line scenario, although I think they can live without it.  Probably not needed in a 6/hour scenario.

The proposal of a fifth line from between Milton and the Exhibition line serves no purpose, is impractical to construct without relocating the alignment of Milton Road and the provision of a new road bridge over the rail line and the resumption and demolition of the buildings on the Victoria Barracks side of the line and a new rail bridge over Countess Street.
From an operating viewpoint it acomplishes almost nothing.
Even without the construction of the CRR the freight services for Moolabin, Acacia Ridge and Fishermans Island can be routed via the mains on the Ipswich line then crossover at Sherwood to run round the Tennyson line which is what happens now with the majority of freight services now.
The point of conflict is the crossing from the mains to the suburbans at Sherwood then on to the Tennyson line with trains inbound on the suburbans being most in conflict and this readily is managable.
If money is going to be spent to resolve your perceived conflicts a flyover from the mains at Sherwood to the Tennyson line would be far more effective and practical.
The construction of the CRR removes any need for any further works for the forseeable future (50 to 100 years)
This continuous irelevant and impractical foam achieves little and detracts from the credibility of RBoT as a forum.

[Fares_Fair]

I think this is hard.

The most critical move in the network is from the north to South Brisbane.  Assuming there would be 4/hour Ferny Grove-Coopers Plains + 4/hour Airport express to Coopers Plains + 4/hour to Manly, then that means 3 trains in every 15 minute window.  Even if the Coopers Plains train is 3 minutes behind the express, that still leaves a 12 minute gap which needs to have 2 trains inserted into it.  I think the Cleveland/Manly train needs to be reasonably close to another train, which isn't ideal from a reliability standpoint.  Also, running via Exhibition just isn't practical if it is to conflict with every train on the network with our desired train numbers.  It needs to run via Central, at least in the southbound direction.  Possibly the gaps can be coordinated on the Ipswich line to allow it to run via Exhibition heading north.

What about the 5th track from near Milton to Exhibition?  That should really help in my proposed 8/hour Ipswich line scenario, although I think they can live without it.  Probably not needed in a 6/hour scenario.

The proposal of a fifth line from between Milton and the Exhibition line serves no purpose, is impractical to construct without relocating the alignment of Milton Road and the provision of a new road bridge over the rail line and the resumption and demolition of the buildings on the Victoria Barracks side of the line and a new rail bridge over Countess Street.
From an operating viewpoint it acomplishes almost nothing.
Even without the construction of the CRR the freight services for Moolabin, Acacia Ridge and Fishermans Island can be routed via the mains on the Ipswich line then crossover at Sherwood to run round the Tennyson line which is what happens now with the majority of freight services now.
The point of conflict is the crossing from the mains to the suburbans at Sherwood then on to the Tennyson line with trains inbound on the suburbans being most in conflict and this readily is managable.
If money is going to be spent to resolve your perceived conflicts a flyover from the mains at Sherwood to the Tennyson line would be far more effective and practical.
The construction of the CRR removes any need for any further works for the forseeable future (50 to 100 years)
This continuous irelevant and impractical foam achieves little and detracts from the credibility of RBoT as a forum.

bring on CRR !

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

Well if the 5th track is impractical, then it is an "official" impractical suggestion.  Last time I was down there it looked to me like there would be room in between the barracks and the existing track, but I might look again.

As for no purpose, that is clearly false.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Agreed. The 5th rail just isn't needed for its expense. You can add a fifth rail at Roma Street but that just moves the bottleneck futher along. Then theres the conflict of freight blocking the entire line at Yerongpilly if there's a freighter returning from Fishermans Island with a Fishermans Island bound coalie on the DG. And freight should not go anywhere through the inner city lines as a red light can really stuff up paths through the city.

[somebody]

Agreed. The 5th rail just isn't needed for its expense. You can add a fifth rail at Roma Street but that just moves the bottleneck futher along. Then theres the conflict of freight blocking the entire line at Yerongpilly if there's a freighter returning from Fishermans Island with a Fishermans Island bound coalie on the DG. And freight should not go anywhere through the inner city lines as a red light can really stuff up paths through the city.

So what are you saying?  That all freight should run via Sherwood?  CRR would be of no benefit for freight in that scenario.

EDIT: FWIW, the price of this track is listed as $150m-$200m.  The benefit is far more tangible than the Corinda-Darra amplifications IMO, but the price is much less.

[mufreight]

Agreed. The 5th rail just isn't needed for its expense. You can add a fifth rail at Roma Street but that just moves the bottleneck futher along. Then theres the conflict of freight blocking the entire line at Yerongpilly if there's a freighter returning from Fishermans Island with a Fishermans Island bound coalie on the DG. And freight should not go anywhere through the inner city lines as a red light can really stuff up paths through the city.

A regular sight while waiting for the bus at the PAH bus station is a loaded coal service headed to Fishermans Island on the DG while an empty coal service headed for the west comes around from the Clevland line through Dutton Park, so obviously plenty of capacity there for the freight movements and another regular is the QRN container service that has run through Tennyson on its way to Acacia Ridge late morning at Yeeroongpilly, again same story there must be sufficent capacity for this movement to take place otherwise the easier and shorter alternative parth through South Brisbane would be used.

[somebody]

FWIW, the ICRCS or some other official study there was a fly under Tennyson -> Sherwood to the down sub for about $350m.  I think that project ranks behind the 5th track around Milton.

The construction of the CRR removes any need for any further works for the forseeable future (50 to 100 years)

How so?  A reasonable Ipswich + Springfield service would see 8/hour pax through the critical path.  Squeezing freight in between while conflicting with the inbound trains at the same frequency when the freight is Milton bound seems like it would cause a lot of reliability issues.

This continuous irelevant and impractical foam achieves little and detracts from the credibility of RBoT as a forum.

Where is the foam?  Where is the impracticality?

I stand by what I said and will go so far as to say increases the credibility of the forum.

[mufreight]

FWIW, the ICRCS or some other official study there was a fly under Tennyson -> Sherwood to the down sub for about $350m.  I think that project ranks behind the 5th track around Milton.

The construction of the CRR removes any need for any further works for the forseeable future (50 to 100 years)

How so?  A reasonable Ipswich + Springfield service would see 8/hour pax through the critical path.  Squeezing freight in between while conflicting with the inbound trains at the same frequency when the freight is Milton bound seems like it would cause a lot of reliability issues.

Again lets get real here, a four line section of track for 8 TPH, at the present time the two lines between Darra and Ipswich prove that 20 trains per hour can be operated with a mix of freight services and the current passenger services.
As the Mains between Roma Street  Sherwood would effective see only express passenger services and freight services those two tracks alone could cope with a train every five minutes be it an express passemger service or a freighter, that is 20 trains per hour or better,
Allowing for conflicts with all stations passenger services on the suburbans for freight services to cross from the mains to the Tennyson loop better than eight such movements are possible with eight trains per hour operating on the suburban lines.
With an alternative conection between the mains and the loop such as a flyover the suburban lines could operate reliablt at 15 to 18  trains per hour and the mains at 20 trains per hour.
Highly doubtful that those levels of traffic either passenger or freight will be reached in our lifetimes.

[quote author Simon link=topic=6997.msg753855#msg74248 date=1320725982]

This continuous irelevant and impractical foam achieves little and detracts from the credibility of RBoT as a forum.

Where is the foam?  Where is the impracticality?

I stand by what I said and will go so far as to say increases the credibility of the forum.
[/quote]

Ideas are good but less than thought out foam is counterproductive, one of the key purposes of this forum is to improve rail services and spending time creating distractions from the fundamental operating needs to make those improvements achieves little but to damage the credibility of the forum.
Far better to check facts before posting and think things through including the ongoing impacts of suggestions, can the rest of the system cope? is it practical, can it be affordable and if carried out what further demands on the public purse will it create to resolve a problem moved from point A to point B a kilometre or so down the line.

[somebody]

I reiterate my previous comments.  We agree to disagree.

[somebody]

What do you think of the 5th track around Milton, ozbob?  Seems a sensible suggestion which should reduce opposition from within QR to the 8/hour full time pattern on the Ipswich/Richlands line.

[somebody]

Regarding arrangements at Darra assuming 3 electric/1 freight lines heading east, the arrangement on the other side would have been better to be like this:

Down Main ----------------------------------------------------------------  Darra #4
Up Sub Relief ------------------------------\
                                                              \
                                                               v
Up Main    ----------------------------------------------------------------- Darra #3
Down Richlands                    /---------------------------------------------  Darra #2
Up Richlands                       /   /--------------------------*-----------------Darra #1
                                                                  ^            /
                                                                    \-------/

That would have been a marginal price difference to what was done.

I suppose even better would be:

                                                /--------------------------------\
                                               v                    Darra 3/4              \
Down Main ----------------------------------------------------------*-----------------
Up Main    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                    Darra 1/2
<unnamed> ----------------------------------*----------------------------------------
<freight road> -------------------------------*------------------------------
                                           ^                  /
                                          /           Up Richlands
                              Down Richlands

I suppose swapping my unnamed road and the freight road is where the flyover at Corinda comes in.

[ozbob]

What do you think of the 5th track around Milton, ozbob?  Seems a sensible suggestion which should reduce opposition from within QR to the 8/hour full time pattern on the Ipswich/Richlands line.

Yes interesting this has come up again, I think we have discussed this before a while ago.  Should be doable.