Article: Futuristic laser-guided pods to transport Heathrow passengers

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Futuristic laser-guided pods to transport Heathrow passengers

[Mr X]

These things are generally only efficient at airports 

[SurfRail]

These things are generally only efficient at airports 

On that scale certainly, but optically or laser guided buses do exist, albeit not on a large scale.  The street infrastructure required would be reasonably expensive and probably not significantly more advantageous than a well-trained driver, particularly on roads like those in Brisbane.

[colinw]

Didn't Ron want something like that instead of the tried & proven solution of a light rail system?

[somebody]

Where's the advantage over a rail solution?  Perhaps they can make turns for different terminals as required?

[SurfRail]

Didn't Ron want something like that instead of the tried & proven solution of a light rail system?

He wanted a Bishop system (ie mini-monorail).

[Mr X]

Where's the advantage over a rail solution?  Perhaps they can make turns for different terminals as required?

Supposedly automated PRT like this is more practical and wastes *less money*  :conf

[Golliwog]

I suppose thats the case seeing as it would only run (at Heathrow anyway) when someone turns up. If you were doing it on any large scale though I would think you'd need buses that would stop and pick up more people though. Having a pod for each group wouldn't be very practical.

[BrizCommuter]

Where's the advantage over a rail solution?  Perhaps they can make turns for different terminals as required?

Supposedly automated PRT like this is more practical and wastes *less money*  :conf

That is pretty much the point. Take the scenario of an airport car park transfer bus. Why wait 10 minutes for a bus, when you can wait 60 seconds for a pod? Why wait for the bus to do the round of multiple terminals, when a pod can take you directly to the correct terminal? What if no-one is waiting for the bus, the bus runs empty wasting energy. A pod will not run unless it is required.

BrizCommuter thinks we will be seeing a lot more PRT systems within the next 10 years - they have a niche market, but this market exists.

[SurfRail]

Where's the advantage over a rail solution?  Perhaps they can make turns for different terminals as required?

Supposedly automated PRT like this is more practical and wastes *less money*  :conf

That is pretty much the point. Take the scenario of an airport car park transfer bus. Why wait 10 minutes for a bus, when you can wait 60 seconds for a pod? Why wait for the bus to do the round of multiple terminals, when a pod can take you directly to the correct terminal? What if no-one is waiting for the bus, the bus runs empty wasting energy. A pod will not run unless it is required.

BrizCommuter thinks we will be seeing a lot more PRT systems within the next 10 years - they have a niche market, but this market exists.

Wouldn't be surprised if Westfield installs one at Chermside...

[Mr X]

Robina could use one too

[frereOP]

Brisbanetimes --> Futuristic laser-guided pods to transport Heathrow passengers

Just like Singpore's Changi Airport Skytrains which run on pneumatic tyres along an elevated roadway between all three terminals.

[BrizCommuter]

Brisbanetimes --> Futuristic laser-guided pods to transport Heathrow passengers

Just like Singpore's Changi Airport Skytrains which run on pneumatic tyres along an elevated roadway between all three terminals.

Not quite. The Changi Airport Skytrains are more of a Group Rapid Transit (GRT) system which run to a frequent timetable as opposed to the Heathrow Personal Rapid Transit (PRT) system where pods run on demand to a choice of destinations.

BrizCommuter has written an article on Pods, and whether we will ever see any in SE Queensland.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2011/09/pods-future-transportation.html

[Gazza]

These things are generally only efficient at airports  

On that scale certainly, but optically or laser guided buses do exist, albeit not on a large scale.  The street infrastructure required would be reasonably expensive and probably not significantly more advantageous than a well-trained driver, particularly on roads like those in Brisbane.

It's just dotted white lines that guide the bus. How is that expensive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCwi0Vcfhc&feature=related

[SurfRail]

These things are generally only efficient at airports  

On that scale certainly, but optically or laser guided buses do exist, albeit not on a large scale.  The street infrastructure required would be reasonably expensive and probably not significantly more advantageous than a well-trained driver, particularly on roads like those in Brisbane.

It's just dotted white lines that guide the bus. How is that expensive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCwi0Vcfhc&feature=related

On a fairly limited number of lines on well-maintained roads - sure.  In Brisbane?  No thanks.  Council can't even grade the road properly, let alone get the markings right.

The O-Bahn at least gives you the advantage of speed - I don't know what this does except introduce something else that can go wrong.

[colinw]

I think these kinds of systems have enormous potential as feeders to stations near major activity centres.  Indooroopilly Station to Shopping Town, that sort of thing. Robina Station to the shopping centre is a fairly obvious one, and the Gold Coast strikes me as the sort of place it would really work.

[HappyTrainGuy]

These things are generally only efficient at airports  

On that scale certainly, but optically or laser guided buses do exist, albeit not on a large scale.  The street infrastructure required would be reasonably expensive and probably not significantly more advantageous than a well-trained driver, particularly on roads like those in Brisbane.

It's just dotted white lines that guide the bus. How is that expensive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCwi0Vcfhc&feature=related

On a fairly limited number of lines on well-maintained roads - sure.  In Brisbane?  No thanks.  Council can't even grade the road properly, let alone get the markings right.

The O-Bahn at least gives you the advantage of speed - I don't know what this does except introduce something else that can go wrong.

I'd be worried about people running out infront of the bus/traffic lights.

[Golliwog]

These things are generally only efficient at airports  

On that scale certainly, but optically or laser guided buses do exist, albeit not on a large scale.  The street infrastructure required would be reasonably expensive and probably not significantly more advantageous than a well-trained driver, particularly on roads like those in Brisbane.

It's just dotted white lines that guide the bus. How is that expensive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCwi0Vcfhc&feature=related

On a fairly limited number of lines on well-maintained roads - sure.  In Brisbane?  No thanks.  Council can't even grade the road properly, let alone get the markings right.

The O-Bahn at least gives you the advantage of speed - I don't know what this does except introduce something else that can go wrong.

I'd be worried about people running out infront of the bus/traffic lights.

I'm assuming that sort of thing is the main reason for keeping the driver, but even so, if you have to have a driver anyway, whats the point of the laser guided-ness?

[Gazza]

These things are generally only efficient at airports  

On that scale certainly, but optically or laser guided buses do exist, albeit not on a large scale.  The street infrastructure required would be reasonably expensive and probably not significantly more advantageous than a well-trained driver, particularly on roads like those in Brisbane.

It's just dotted white lines that guide the bus. How is that expensive?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCwi0Vcfhc&feature=related

On a fairly limited number of lines on well-maintained roads - sure.  In Brisbane?  No thanks.  Council can't even grade the road properly, let alone get the markings right.

The O-Bahn at least gives you the advantage of speed - I don't know what this does except introduce something else that can go wrong.

Yes, but what does any of this have to do with the on street infrastructure being 'expensive'?

[#Metro]

Lol.

If you want something that's like a car... GET A CAR!!!
No need to re-invent the car!

[O_128]

Seems a bit pointless, this is more of a technology showpiece, In terms of Robina, maybe they should move the monorail from the casino.

[SurfRail]

I think these kinds of systems have enormous potential as feeders to stations near major activity centres.  Indooroopilly Station to Shopping Town, that sort of thing. Robina Station to the shopping centre is a fairly obvious one, and the Gold Coast strikes me as the sort of place it would really work.

One place which would be a good proof of concept is in Perth - the Rockingham foreshore to Rockingham Station 555 route, which has an LRT grade reservation for a good deal of its length.

[BrizCommuter]

Lol.

If you want something that's like a car... GET A CAR!!!
No need to re-invent the car!

Is that the car that is more polluting and less safe (allegedly) that PRT? What about people who cannot or do not want to drive?
Where do you find a car to get from the airport car park to the terminal, when you've just parked it?

[Mr X]

I'll agree, good for a feeder system, useless for transporting massive amounts of people. At 4 people a pod, how'd you move the 000,000s of people travelling to Brisbane CBD...?

[ozbob]

I'll agree, good for a feeder system, useless for transporting massive amounts of people. At 4 people a pod, how'd you move the 000,000s of people travelling to Brisbane CBD...?

Publish a glossy ' Teletransporting SEQ 2051 (Draft) ' ...

[#Metro]

Is that the car that is more polluting and less safe (allegedly) that PRT?

PRT = automated car on guideway.

What about people who cannot or do not want to drive?

What about them?

Where do you find a car to get from the airport car park to the terminal, when you've just parked it?

Catch a bus! Train!

[Mr X]

PRT carries around a lot of fluff for the use.
If your PRT is installed somewhere that doesn't warrant a bus service, how the hell will a guided track costing millions be any more economically efficient? Sure you have lower operational costs from buses not going around in endless loops only to get low patronage, but that's why you install flexilink or have smaller buses to these places!
I am sure a disabled person would prefer a driver than an automated system (essentially a robot), especially if they require wheelchairs and assistance getting in/out.

Would PRT also have a lot of dead running after being used, and it's arrival at pickup would hardly be "instant" if it needs to come from *somewhere*. I've used something like it in places like Singapore and Paris airports and that's the only place these things will ever belong, to minimise excessive airport walking and to/fro parking stations. Elsewhere, modern PT kills it flat.

[BrizCommuter]

Tramtrain, you obviously don't quite get the point of PRT, although to be honest it will be some time until transit developers and urban planners will get the point of it too. PRT will take some time for acceptance even within it's niche markets. 

Is that the car that is more polluting and less safe (allegedly) that PRT?

PRT = automated car on guideway.

PRT = electric (battery storage)
Car = internal combustion engine (with a small percentage of electric or hybrid models) - less efficient than most methods of producing electricity
Anyway,aside from if it was serving residential areas, PRT would be more of a bus/automated guided transit/walking alternative instead of a car alternative.

What about people who cannot or do not want to drive?

What about them?

For someone on a public transport forum, a more intelligent argument would be expected. A large number of public transport users do not own or have access to a car - children, students, one car families, elderly, disabled, some health conditions. However as mentioned above, most uses of PRT are not really alternatives to cars.

Where do you find a car to get from the airport car park to the terminal, when you've just parked it?

Catch a bus! Train!

The whole point of PRT is to be a more efficient and sustainable alternative to other forms of transport in cases where there are relatively low passenger numbers and relatively short travel distances. Would you rather wait 10 minutes for that airport car park to terminal bus, or take a PRT pod with a 30 second wait and faster journey time?

[#Metro]

PRT = electric (battery storage)
Car = internal combustion engine (with a small percentage of electric or hybrid models) - less efficient than most methods of producing electricity

Disagree. You are confusing method of propulsion with mode.

A large number of public transport users do not own or have access to a car - children, students, one car families, elderly, disabled, some health conditions. However as mentioned above, most uses of PRT are not really alternatives to cars.

And so your point was  

The whole point of PRT is to be a more efficient and sustainable alternative to other forms of transport in cases where there are relatively low passenger numbers and relatively short travel distances. Would you rather wait 10 minutes for that airport car park to terminal bus, or take a PRT pod with a 30 second wait and faster journey time?

I don't really care what Heathrow decides they want for their system. But outside of that context, and in an urban context, I don't really see the point of building it. Its low capacity means that its useless at peak hour, and its constrained guideway means that it is limited in coverage. Not only that it is going to compete with bicycles and walking much more that it would compete with cars, which is WORSE from a health and emissions perspective.

Mobility first. Mode second.

What mobility means ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5958.0

[BrizCommuter]

PRT = electric (battery storage)
Car = internal combustion engine (with a small percentage of electric or hybrid models) - less efficient than most methods of producing electricity

Disagree. You are confusing method of propulsion with mode.

A large number of public transport users do not own or have access to a car - children, students, one car families, elderly, disabled, some health conditions. However as mentioned above, most uses of PRT are not really alternatives to cars.

And so your point was  

The whole point of PRT is to be a more efficient and sustainable alternative to other forms of transport in cases where there are relatively low passenger numbers and relatively short travel distances. Would you rather wait 10 minutes for that airport car park to terminal bus, or take a PRT pod with a 30 second wait and faster journey time?

I don't really care what Heathrow decides they want for their system. But outside of that context, and in an urban context, I don't really see the point of building it. Its low capacity means that its useless at peak hour, and its constrained guideway means that it is limited in coverage. Not only that it is going to compete with bicycles and walking much more that it would compete with cars, which is WORSE from a health and emissions perspective.

Mobility first. Mode second.

What mobility means ---> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5958.0

Oh well, in 25 years time BrizCommuter will give you a wave from his PRT rail feeder pod, as you walk in 30 degree heat to the station. 

[Mr X]

I walk 5km a day to/fro uni and it's quicker than both the 192 bus and the car combined! Cycling is quicker still but I lose time due to lockup etc.
While PRT would be quicker, it'd be an economic waste to do it. What's wrong with walking?? Or ACTIVE transport? If you use PRT to avoid walking for 5 mins there really must be something wrong with you, unless you have a mobility impairment. What's next, inhouse PRT so I don't walk to my fridge?

[O_128]

I walk 5km a day to/fro uni and it's quicker than both the 192 bus and the car combined! Cycling is quicker still but I lose time due to lockup etc.
While PRT would be quicker, it'd be an economic waste to do it. What's wrong with walking?? Or ACTIVE transport? If you use PRT to avoid walking for 5 mins there really must be something wrong with you, unless you have a mobility impairment. What's next, inhouse PRT so I don't walk to my fridge?

PRT has its place at heathrow.

1.the place is huge and far to much of a walk to the carparks especially in winter with bags.
2.PRT makes sense as it would be a dribble of people going back and forth rather than using light rail which there wouldn't be enough demand for.

[Mr X]

I did say before I support it at airports  just implying it can replace all walking seems to be taking it a little too far

[#Metro]

While PRT would be quicker, it'd be an economic waste to do it. What's wrong with walking?? Or ACTIVE transport? If you use PRT to avoid walking for 5 mins there really must be something wrong with you, unless you have a mobility impairment. What's next, inhouse PRT so I don't walk to my fridge?

Its called Mobility scooter!

And then there is running!

[O_128]

While PRT would be quicker, it'd be an economic waste to do it. What's wrong with walking?? Or ACTIVE transport? If you use PRT to avoid walking for 5 mins there really must be something wrong with you, unless you have a mobility impairment. What's next, inhouse PRT so I don't walk to my fridge?

Its called Mobility scooter!

And then there is running!

I walk everywhere but i struggled to walk the 1km underground from the station to my terminal at heathrow with a 20 kilo bag, try that above ground in minus 5 and you would support this. though the auto rail thing that heathrow 5 uses would have been a good idea.

[BrizCommuter]

I walk 5km a day to/fro uni and it's quicker than both the 192 bus and the car combined! Cycling is quicker still but I lose time due to lockup etc.
While PRT would be quicker, it'd be an economic waste to do it. What's wrong with walking?? Or ACTIVE transport? If you use PRT to avoid walking for 5 mins there really must be something wrong with you, unless you have a mobility impairment. What's next, inhouse PRT so I don't walk to my fridge?

A reason why many people do not use public transport in SE Queensland is the walk, in 30 degree + heat from the station to/from their work or home. This is often far longer than 5 minutes (for example Bowen Hills/FV to RBWH is 12-15 minutes, even some parts of the CBD are 15 mins from a train station). Many shirt wearing workers do not want to arrive at their destination with sweaty armpits, BO, and sunburn. Nor do they want to share a train or bus with similar sweaty people. Thus they choose to drive instead so that the whole journey can be done in air conditioned comfort.

[somebody]

I walk 5km a day to/fro uni and it's quicker than both the 192 bus and the car combined! Cycling is quicker still but I lose time due to lockup etc.
While PRT would be quicker, it'd be an economic waste to do it. What's wrong with walking?? Or ACTIVE transport? If you use PRT to avoid walking for 5 mins there really must be something wrong with you, unless you have a mobility impairment. What's next, inhouse PRT so I don't walk to my fridge?

A reason why many people do not use public transport in SE Queensland is the walk, in 30 degree + heat from the station to/from their work or home. This is often far longer than 5 minutes (for example Bowen Hills/FV to RBWH is 12-15 minutes, even some parts of the CBD are 15 mins from a train station). Many shirt wearing workers do not want to arrive at their destination with sweaty armpits, BO, and sunburn. Nor do they want to share a train or bus with similar sweaty people. Thus they choose to drive instead so that the whole journey can be done in air conditioned comfort.

Which is one of the major positives from CRR.  Central is in a terrible location really.

[O_128]

I feel that PRT could be done just as well with a monorail and before i get shot down a monorail would actually be a great idea for brisbane CBD, start at central go up ann st loop down eagle street etc etc, Walking to parts of the CBD in summer are a killer.

[SurfRail]

I feel that PRT could be done just as well with a monorail and before i get shot down a monorail would actually be a great idea for brisbane CBD, start at central go up ann st loop down eagle street etc etc, Walking to parts of the CBD in summer are a killer.

It surprises me that the Free Loop is so pathetic.  Not only does it stop at 6pm and not operate on weekends, but they reduced the headways from 10 minutes to 15 minutes some time ago and never announced it.  Even the Spring Hill Loop is more frequent (except weekends of course, when they both have a roughly 60-hour headway  ).