A cost comparison of how "expensive" the Eastern Busway actually is

[Mr X]

Hi all,
One fact published by the media is that the Eastern Busway cost $465 million for 1.05km, or $442,000 a metre.

No one seems to have overlooked the mass waste on other ROAD projects that are happening at this time. Why is it seemingly ok for us to spend massive amounts of money making it easier and faster to drive, but spending on public transport is bad..?

Let's see:

Clem 7 tunnel
Cost: $3.2bn
Length: 4.8km
Cost per metre: $666,000

Go Between Bridge
Cost: $338mil
Length: 300m
Cost per metre: $1.1mil

Airport Link
Cost: $4.8bn
Length: 6.5km
Cost per metre: $738,000

Eastern busway looks real expensive now.. eh?   So why is everyone complaining about the cost?!
Public transport infrastructure is cheaper than road infrastructure and has more benefits, carries more people, and does more to solving congestion. Yet because it doesn't make driving "faster", it's a waste? 

Edit:
Other "expensive" PT costs:

Kurilpa Bridge, 2007
Cost: $63mil
Length: 470m
Cost per metre: $134,000

Inner Northern Busway (Queen St to Roma St), 2008
Cost: $333m
Length: 1.2km
Cost per metre: $277,000

[O_128]

While in comparison to road projects it seems cheap to other PT projects its expensive, I know I keep getting told tunnels, bridges etc but its not 1850, We have been building these things for years now. Varsity and rich lands extensions were 400 million and they were tunnels and bridges etc. The original busway cost 450 million from the city to 8mp, so in todays dollars probably 1 billion. the busway has tunnels stations bridges etc. The cost just doesn't add up for the eastern busway.

And Happy bus user, the tunnels are going to be more expensive as they are tunnels.

[Mr X]

While in comparison to road projects it seems cheap to other PT projects its expensive, I know I keep getting told tunnels, bridges etc but its not 1850, We have been building these things for years now. Varsity and rich lands extensions were 400 million and they were tunnels and bridges etc. The original busway cost 450 million from the city to 8mp, so in todays dollars probably 1 billion. the busway has tunnels stations bridges etc. The cost just doesn't add up for the eastern busway.

And Happy bus user, the tunnels are going to be more expensive as they are tunnels.

Yes but the thing is, the cost has been blown out of proportion from the media, my post was just to get a bit of perspective. Doesn't this stretch also include two tunnels and flyovers? Things cost money and I'd rather we spent our cash on public transport than more road tunnels that just encourage driving.

[O_128]

The clem 7 is technically 2 4km tunnels so it works out to be 250 million a k.

The original busway was 450 million there is no way that this cost 450 million, someone made a lot of money somewhere.

[Mr X]

A lot of the SE busway corridor was in unused land remember, so fewer resumptions.

It's just a symptom of the cost of construction.. labourers/builders/equipment are expensive. Just look at how much it costs to renovate a house these days.

Though what IS surprising is why the Eleanor Schonell Bridge cost $55.5mil in 2005/2006 yet a single flyover for Coronation Dve cost $63mil in 2010, both BCC projects?

[jouzocha]

I think a fair bit of Eastern Busway costs could have been property resumptions.  Is there anywhere a breakdown of the project costs is available?

[ozbob]

I think a fair bit of Eastern Busway costs could have been property resumptions.  Is there anywhere a breakdown of the project costs is available?

Yes, not sure of the exact amount but I am aware a number of businesses and residential properties were resumed. This was a significant cost component.

[AnonymouslyBad]

In a way, this is how much it costs to follow the golden rule "never take any space away from cars, ever".

I wonder how much the Eastern Busway would've cost if it went down the middle of the road? Would that have even been possible?

[Mr X]

Or just bus lanes?

[somebody]

In a way, this is how much it costs to follow the golden rule "never take any space away from cars, ever".

This would still apply in Sydney but more in a net sense.  You can take road space away if a toll road is provided somewhere else.  I'd be very surprised if it didn't apply in Mel, Adl and Per also.

[dwb]

In a way, this is how much it costs to follow the golden rule "never take any space away from cars, ever".

I wonder how much the Eastern Busway would've cost if it went down the middle of the road? Would that have even been possible?

+1.

We could have a whole network tomorrow if we followed that thinking... and probably for less than $450mil

[FrequencyCrusader]

IIRC they purchased properties all the way to Cavendish Rd (ie past the current stage of construction) as there was all that hoo-hah about the old myer building being bought by the government but left vacant (currently the Coorparoo markets, renamed the busway markets)

Which makes me think they also "volumetrically" resumed properties up until there too (in Qld you own property to the centre of the earth, so a tunnel 20m below your house still means you get compensation)

If that's correct (and if the $400m pricetag includes that) then I'd think it's not that expensive.

Put another way: a busway down Trouts Rd corridor with a couple of stations wouldn't cost much, but one through the middle of developed surburbia with bridges and tunnels will cost a lot

[Otto]

IIRC they purchased properties all the way to Cavendish Rd (ie past the current stage of construction) as there was all that hoo-hah about the old myer building being bought by the government but left vacant (currently the Coorparoo markets, renamed the busway markets)

And today all the windows were covered in black plastic.. No activity to be seen.. A large sign proclaiming " New Retailer moving in " .

[O_128]

Emailed our Honourable transport minister asking bus lanes or T3 lanes arent being added langlands park to carindale and why 400 million had to be spent when bus lanes and priority would have done the same.

[Gazza]

^Because its the start of a longer project, with the intention that it's pretty much class A all the way:
http://translink.com.au/about-translink/what-we-do/infrastructure-projects/eastern-busway/maps

[O_128]

^Because its the start of a longer project, with the intention that it's pretty much class A all the way:
http://translink.com.au/about-translink/what-we-do/infrastructure-projects/eastern-busway/maps

But as an interim measure as its at least 10 years before the line gets to carindale.

[Golliwog]

I agree with the argument about bus lanes from Main Ave out to Capalaba (and I think I saw somewhere that they are intending on doing some interim things along the corridor to help speed up buses, but nothing specific). But bus lanes instead of a busway wouldn't have achieved the same result, not even close.

[Gazza]

Indeed...There should be Bus lanes to start with. But to say that the money spent on this first stage is a waste makes I think is unfair....They've gotta start building it somewhere or else how does that part of Brisbane get its "Line"?

[Mr X]

Had an idea earlier today.. an expensive one too
Would we either:
A. extend the eastern busway to Cleveland to meet the train system (is the congestion bad enough to warrant this?)
or
B. can the eastern "busway" and make it another train line to Cleveland, stopping at Capalaba, Carindale etc...?

[SurfRail]

Had an idea earlier today.. an expensive one too
Would we either:
A. extend the eastern busway to Cleveland to meet the train system (is the congestion bad enough to warrant this?)
or
B. can the eastern "busway" and make it another train line to Cleveland, stopping at Capalaba, Carindale etc...?

There would be little reason to extend it beyond Capalaba, no matter what form it takes.

I would in fact prefer it headed in the direction of Victoria Point if it were to continue.  There is a road reservation and it would make the journey considerably faster for those in the southern part of Redlands.  Finucane Rd is fairly direct and bus lanes would cope.

[O_128]

Had an idea earlier today.. an expensive one too
Would we either:
A. extend the eastern busway to Cleveland to meet the train system (is the congestion bad enough to warrant this?)
or
B. can the eastern "busway" and make it another train line to Cleveland, stopping at Capalaba, Carindale etc...?

I proposed th originally but tl is he'll bent on buses, my biggest issue with the busway. Is that for the cost you would expect to run more services not 2 routes off peak, this is a rail issue to though, don't bother building the mbrl for 30 min frequency

[AnonymouslyBad]

I agree with the argument about bus lanes from Main Ave out to Capalaba (and I think I saw somewhere that they are intending on doing some interim things along the corridor to help speed up buses, but nothing specific). But bus lanes instead of a busway wouldn't have achieved the same result, not even close.

They talk about interim measures every time a busway is planned, but they never seem to eventuate...

[SurfRail]

I agree with the argument about bus lanes from Main Ave out to Capalaba (and I think I saw somewhere that they are intending on doing some interim things along the corridor to help speed up buses, but nothing specific). But bus lanes instead of a busway wouldn't have achieved the same result, not even close.

They talk about interim measures every time a busway is planned, but they never seem to eventuate...

First concrete example of that (or perhaps "ashpalt") will be the Northern "Busway" between Breakfast Creek and Truro St, which will be on-road bus lanes and stops for the foreseeable future.  I have seen no indication as to when this will be replaced with actual busway.

[O_128]

I agree with the argument about bus lanes from Main Ave out to Capalaba (and I think I saw somewhere that they are intending on doing some interim things along the corridor to help speed up buses, but nothing specific). But bus lanes instead of a busway wouldn't have achieved the same result, not even close.

They talk about interim measures every time a busway is planned, but they never seem to eventuate...

First concrete example of that (or perhaps "ashpalt") will be the Northern "Busway" between Breakfast Creek and Truro St, which will be on-road bus lanes and stops for the foreseeable future.  I have seen no indication as to when this will be replaced with actual busway.

Will it need to be though?, As long as the bus lanes are separated from main traffic then there is no issue. As to the Eastern busway it might be cheaper to build the capalaba to carindale stretch and the carindale to carina stretch before the main road to bents road stretch as it that section will most likely be another 400million dollar piece where as capalaba to carina looks to be much easier excluding the 4 platform caridale station.

[Golliwog]

4 platform Carindale station?

[O_128]

4 platform Carindale station?

Check out the alignment, 2 for terminating buses and 2 for through buses. Considering the chaos at carindale ATM it might be a good idea

[dwb]

I agree with the argument about bus lanes from Main Ave out to Capalaba (and I think I saw somewhere that they are intending on doing some interim things along the corridor to help speed up buses, but nothing specific). But bus lanes instead of a busway wouldn't have achieved the same result, not even close.

They talk about interim measures every time a busway is planned, but they never seem to eventuate...

First concrete example of that (or perhaps "ashpalt") will be the Northern "Busway" between Breakfast Creek and Truro St, which will be on-road bus lanes and stops for the foreseeable future.  I have seen no indication as to when this will be replaced with actual busway.

Will it need to be though?, As long as the bus lanes are separated from main traffic then there is no issue. As to the Eastern busway it might be cheaper to build the capalaba to carindale stretch and the carindale to carina stretch before the main road to bents road stretch as it that section will most likely be another 400million dollar piece where as capalaba to carina looks to be much easier excluding the 4 platform caridale station.

Maybe they should do the hard bit ie carindale next

[O_128]

I agree with the argument about bus lanes from Main Ave out to Capalaba (and I think I saw somewhere that they are intending on doing some interim things along the corridor to help speed up buses, but nothing specific). But bus lanes instead of a busway wouldn't have achieved the same result, not even close.

They talk about interim measures every time a busway is planned, but they never seem to eventuate...

First concrete example of that (or perhaps "ashpalt") will be the Northern "Busway" between Breakfast Creek and Truro St, which will be on-road bus lanes and stops for the foreseeable future.  I have seen no indication as to when this will be replaced with actual busway.

Will it need to be though?, As long as the bus lanes are separated from main traffic then there is no issue. As to the Eastern busway it might be cheaper to build the capalaba to carindale stretch and the carindale to carina stretch before the main road to bents road stretch as it that section will most likely be another 400million dollar piece where as capalaba to carina looks to be much easier excluding the 4 platform caridale station.

Maybe they should do the hard bit ie carindale next

Well the carindale stretch is nowhere near as complex as the langlands park. I would say to carina to capalaba next and then carina to langlands park. you would be saving 10 mins on the carindale stretch by avoiding traffic and the the stupid station set up.

[AnonymouslyBad]

I don't think the busway to Carina would be that expensive, because some of the resumptions have already been paid for in this stage, and a fair chunk of the corridor (including tram tracks!) remains reserved to this day so not as much work.

Carindale station might be more important though.

[somebody]

4 platform Carindale station?

That's what it looks like on a map. (Link: http://translink.com.au/about-translink/what-we-do/infrastructure-projects/eastern-busway/changes-to-the-busway-near-carindale )

Check out the alignment, 2 for terminating buses and 2 for through buses. Considering the chaos at carindale ATM it might be a good idea

That's an interesting concept.  Layover inside the station then?  What buses terminate at Carindale? 59x? No.  213/215/216, 202, 203 are about all I can think of.  Perhaps the interchange is the reason that there are so few.

Maybe they should do the hard bit ie carindale next

I'm inclined to agree with you here.  The deviation into the station would be enough to annoy me.

Do we have a concept of the $ ?  If it's $300m for the Carindale bit (from Bridgnorth St to Belmont Hospital) and $100m for the connection from Langlands park to Belmont Hospital, then I think it would be a good project, and a pretty high priority.

[Golliwog]

Hmmm, how odd. When I envisaged a 4 platform one, I saw something more like PA Hospital with upstairs and downstairs. Putting two T junctions either side of the platform is (to me anyway) just asking for congestion.

[p858snake]

Which makes me think they also "volumetrically" resumed properties up until there too (in Qld you own property to the centre of the earth, so a tunnel 20m below your house still means you get compensation)

Sure about that? what about all that hoo hah with the CSG still and farmers not owning rights to under their properties?

[SurfRail]

Which makes me think they also "volumetrically" resumed properties up until there too (in Qld you own property to the centre of the earth, so a tunnel 20m below your house still means you get compensation)

Sure about that? what about all that hoo hah with the CSG still and farmers not owning rights to under their properties?

The deed of grant on the original alienation of any land from the Crown always reserves mineral rights to the Crown, which can then form the basis of various types of mining tenures.  If you ever do a mining search anywhere in Ipswich for instance (as I am occasionally instructed to do for clients), you'll come across the same petroleum exploration permit which covers virtually all of the Ipswich and Lockyer Valley area.  That allows the holder to enter private land under certain conditions, to basically prospect and test for oil and coal.

There are also specific depth restrictions on some titles, noticeably for properties in the Ipswich area (ie due to historical undermining the registered plans will typically say down to 70 feet only), but the general position is you own land to the centre of the Earth and airspace as far up as you like, subject to restrictions such as planning laws.