Is Automatic signalling an answer to capacity woes ?

[Fares_Fair]

Hello All,

I had a very interesting conversation this morning with an Engineer who used to work in the Department of Transport.
We discussed all of the rail issues of late and the many reasons for the current capacity issues that have been occurring.

He said that whilst in DoT he was told that the addition of automatic signalling would allow for increased capacity on the line
and that the reason this was not pursued as a fix was that it would result in a significant loss of employment for rail workers.

He also said that it would result in marginally reduced levels of safety compared to the current 'manual' system, i.e. lesser headways between trains.

Q1 Is this true ?
Q2 Would automatic signalling allow for increased capacity of rail services ?
Q3 Does anyone know what the result would be in terms of better capacity ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Zoiks]

Hello All,

I had a very interesting conversation this morning with an Engineer who used to work in the Department of Transport.
We discussed all of the rail issues of late and the many reasons for the current capacity issues that have been occurring.

He said that whilst in DoT he was told that the addition of automatic signalling would allow for increased capacity on the line
and that the reason this was not pursued as a fix was that it would result in a significant loss of employment for rail workers.

He also said that it would result in marginally reduced levels of safety compared to the current 'manual' system, i.e. lesser headways between trains.

Q1 Is this true ?
Q2 Would automatic signalling allow for increased capacity of rail services ?
Q3 Does anyone know what the result would be in terms of better capacity ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

Q1 Is this true? - Safety would likely be better under a electronic signalling system. A train can be remotely stopped if they proceed past a safe level etc. The work force thing I have no idea about.
Q2 Would automatic signalling allow for increased capacity of rail services ? Yes. By alot. Currently we run at about 3 minute headways. 2 minute headways would be easily achieveable
Q3 Does anyone know what the result would be in terms of better capacity ? 2 minute headways would be 50% capacity increase. 90 second headways would be 100% increase.

Issue is expense.
However there are steps we can make along the way. But might not be value for money making little steps

[somebody]

I disagree about those amounts.  Only the best systems, built from scratch with no junctions and more doors/carriage and less seats/carriage achieve 90s headways.  Even 2 minute headways are improbable with current rolling stock IMO.  24tph may well be achievable though.  colinw would be able to answer this with more authority. 

[Zoiks]

To clarify myself, I dont think 90second headways are achievable now. But 2minute headways are. I base this on my final project and the WBTNI

[somebody]

To clarify myself, I dont think 90second headways are achievable now. But 2minute headways are. I base this on my final project and the WBTNI

Here's a link which says that 2 minute headways are present on RER A: https://www.swe.siemens.com/france/web/en/sts/projects/europe/france/RERA/Pages/ratp_paris_rer.aspx

Given that AIUI that has no conflicts or branching involved and also 3 doors/carriage/side, I'd be impressed if that could be achieved by QR.

[BrizCommuter]

To clarify myself, I dont think 90second headways are achievable now. But 2minute headways are. I base this on my final project and the WBTNI

Here's a link which says that 2 minute headways are present on RER A: https://www.swe.siemens.com/france/web/en/sts/projects/europe/france/RERA/Pages/ratp_paris_rer.aspx

Given that AIUI that has no conflicts or branching involved and also 3 doors/carriage/side, I'd be impressed if that could be achieved by QR.

Agree. 2 minute headways would not be possible in QR's rail system without:
1)Higher capacity signalling with either overlapping fixed blocks on station approach, or communication based train control (distance to go or moving block).
2)No infrastructure constraints such as grade junctions, and lack of reversing capacity.
3)More doors per car side for shorter dwell times. 

By the way, "automatic signalling" is already in place in SE Queensland's rail network.

[Fares_Fair]

To clarify myself, I dont think 90second headways are achievable now. But 2minute headways are. I base this on my final project and the WBTNI

Here's a link which says that 2 minute headways are present on RER A: https://www.swe.siemens.com/france/web/en/sts/projects/europe/france/RERA/Pages/ratp_paris_rer.aspx

Given that AIUI that has no conflicts or branching involved and also 3 doors/carriage/side, I'd be impressed if that could be achieved by QR.

Agree. 2 minute headways would not be possible in QR's rail system without:
1)Higher capacity signalling with either overlapping fixed blocks on station approach, or communication based train control (distance to go or moving block).
2)No infrastructure constraints such as grade junctions, and lack of reversing capacity.
3)More doors per car side for shorter dwell times. 

By the way, "automatic signalling" is already in place in SE Queensland's rail network.

Wouldn't that be cheaper than infrastructure upgrades ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[Gazza]

And to be honest, Even with CRR, grade sepped junctions and some sort of advanced signalling system is something we should have on existing infrastructure anyway.

[Zoiks]

To clarify myself, I dont think 90second headways are achievable now. But 2minute headways are. I base this on my final project and the WBTNI

Here's a link which says that 2 minute headways are present on RER A: https://www.swe.siemens.com/france/web/en/sts/projects/europe/france/RERA/Pages/ratp_paris_rer.aspx

Given that AIUI that has no conflicts or branching involved and also 3 doors/carriage/side, I'd be impressed if that could be achieved by QR.

Agree. 2 minute headways would not be possible in QR's rail system without:
1)Higher capacity signalling with either overlapping fixed blocks on station approach, or communication based train control (distance to go or moving block).
2)No infrastructure constraints such as grade junctions, and lack of reversing capacity.
3)More doors per car side for shorter dwell times. 

By the way, "automatic signalling" is already in place in SE Queensland's rail network.

Sorry I was really busy at work yesterday. What I meant by "now" above is that using existing track with minimal changes, existing stock with minimal modifications and using a moving block "automatic signalling" system as the OP puts it.