Should the Airtrain stop at Albion and Wooloowin?

[#Metro]

Should the Airtrain stop at these 2 stations? Would it add too much extra time or does the Airtrain eat up too many train paths?
or is there no difference?

[somebody]

Not really the point.  Why would Airtrain agree to it?  Would the govt reduce the price for running the train services?  I think not.

[colinw]

Should the Airtrain stop at these 2 stations? Would it add too much extra time or does the Airtrain eat up too many train paths?
or is there no difference?

I voted yes.

The reason why is that every time I take Airtrain it really seems to crawl through the Wooloowin to Bowen Hills section, often running stop start as if we are running on the yellows behind an all stations service on the suburban lines.

For the Airport to city leg I suspect you could actually stop at Wooloowin & Albion and maintain current timings.  To the airport might be a minute slower.

[#Metro]

Not really the point.  Why would Airtrain agree to it?  Would the govt reduce the price for running the train services?  I think not.

This is a publicly controlled section of rail on the public network. I don't think there would be any difference in trip times to be honest. At 1-2 minutes its
virtually imperceptible.

I agree with Colinw. I have been held up on that section too. TWICE in the same day. Both times an announcement came over "sorry, we are waiting for signal" or something like that.
Maybe just stopping would allow whatever is in the way to move and then get some more frequency for these stations.

[colinw]

I just put Eagle Junction to Bowen Hills into the TransLink journey planner, departing now.

The options I got were:

Leave    Arrive     Journey Time   Service
4.50pm     4.57pm     7 mins         IPSW
5.05pm     5.12pm     7 mins         SBNK
5.09pm     5.16pm     7 mins         VARS-X
5.20pm     5.27pm     7 mins         IPSW
5.35pm     5.42pm     7 mins         SBNK

For the other direction - Bowen Hills to Eagle Junction:

Leave    Arrive     Journey Time   Service
4.57pm     5.04pm     7 mins         SHOR
5.12pm    5.19pm    7 mins        CABL
5.15pm    5.22pm    7 mins        AIRP-X
5.27pm    5.34pm    7 mins        SHOR
5.42pm    5.49pm    7 mins        CABL

There you have it.  Running express saves the Airport service no time at all.  Why the heck are we arguing about the utility of running the Airport trains express to EJ when the express running serves no purpose whatsoever?

May as well stop all stations.  It might actually give the passengers a better impression - a metro train stopping at stations & accelerating away smoothly rather than a so called express crawling.

So - my position is to run Airtrain all stops on the northside, and rebrand Albion, Wooloowin & Eagle Junction as "Hi Frequency Station" or "Train Upgrade Zone".

[somebody]

I'm sure Airtrain would have something in their contract about this though.

A good question would be: why doesn't it save any time.  It certainly should.  No wonder the trains face signals if the timetable doesn't have them running faster than an all stopper.

[#Metro]

There you have it.  Running express saves the Airport service no time at all.  Why the heck are we arguing about the utility of running the Airport trains express to EJ when the express running serves no purpose whatsoever?

LOL LOL LOL



Yes, there *might* (note the uncertainty) be something in the contract or not.
Contracts can be renegotiated. It leaves them no worse off IMHO. The people are stopping there and being held up anyway, that was my experience anyhow.

[somebody]

How would the govt start the negotiations?  It doesn't save any time (i.e. we can't write a timetable) so let's have them stop there?

[colinw]

Put your spin doctoring hat on.

It is a frequency upgrade for Albion & Wooloowin.

It is necessary for operational reasons, and the efficiency of the railway.

etc.

Actually, the above may both be true, particularly if you can't write a timetable!

[#Metro]

There is no need for spin doctoring. Fact: People from Wooloowin and Albion can now catch the Airtrain without having to catch another train and then backtrack or transfer. Side benefit- more frequency at that station. Customers are not subjected to the train suddenly stopping in the middle of the tracks (which I must say, was totally infuriating!, it stopped right over where you can see the Airport Link tunnel as well, yes, CAR to the airport...)

[colinw]

I find the stop-start journey quite irritating as well, but not as irritating as the fact that Airtrain hardly ever seems to be running when I actually need it!  It is farcical that so many flights leave & arrive after the trains stop in the evening.

No - that's the wrong way around.  It is farcical that trains are not running at a time of day when the airport is still busy.

[somebody]

I doubt that serving the people at Albion at Wooloowin would be a convincing argument for Airtrain.

[Arnz]

The Airtrain stopping at Albion and Wooloowin in both directions during peak would provide more seats for the inner-city commuters, helping spreading the peak loads out.  

Also, it would give a better impression if the train is picking up passengers instead of running express past the inner suburban stations with train that is either half or near empty.  It's a better use of train utilisation.

Airtrain did agree to the GC trains having added intermediate stops (Yeerongpilly and Loganlea) added to the off-peak/weekend Gold Coast schedules over 7 years ago.  This was later modified with Yeerongpilly swapped out for Coopers Plains and Park Road added to the schedule.  I can't see why the government could negiotiate with the Airtrain owners to add Albion and Wooloowin as well.

[#Metro]

Well put Arnz. 

[somebody]

The Airtrain stopping at Albion and Wooloowin in both directions during peak would provide more seats for the inner-city commuters, helping spreading the peak loads out.  

Also, it would give a better impression if the train is picking up passengers instead of running express past the inner suburban stations with train that is either half or near empty.  It's a better use of train utilisation.

Airtrain did agree to the GC trains having added intermediate stops (Yeerongpilly and Loganlea) added to the off-peak/weekend Gold Coast schedules over 7 years ago.  This was later modified with Yeerongpilly swapped out for Coopers Plains and Park Road added to the schedule.  I can't see why the government could negiotiate with the Airtrain owners to add Albion and Wooloowin as well.

Even if that was done 7 years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if Airtrain are MUCH less interested in negotiation now. Did you hear the interview with Airtrain on 612?

[#Metro]

I have to say, I am amazed at the number of people who are voting "no", when there is no difference in time whatsoever.
'Express', it seems to have this psychological effect.

Maybe BrizCommuter is right. http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com/2010/11/i-want-express-to-my-stationitis.html

[#Metro]

The options I got were:

Leave    Arrive     Journey Time   Service
4.50pm     4.57pm     7 mins         IPSW
5.05pm     5.12pm     7 mins         SBNK
5.09pm     5.16pm     7 mins         VARS-X
5.20pm     5.27pm     7 mins         IPSW
5.35pm     5.42pm     7 mins         SBNK

For the other direction - Bowen Hills to Eagle Junction:

Leave    Arrive     Journey Time   Service
4.57pm     5.04pm     7 mins         SHOR
5.12pm    5.19pm    7 mins        CABL
5.15pm    5.22pm    7 mins        AIRP-X
5.27pm    5.34pm    7 mins        SHOR
5.42pm    5.49pm    7 mins        CABL

I meant to ask this question- why do we have a South Bank terminator on the weekends? What is that? Why do have it?
Why can't we just have a standard operating pattern 7 days? 

[somebody]

Because it's always been that way and God forbid anything that is already there being taken away!?  Even if it is only useful to a few people who use the Shorncliffe line services on weekends, and isn't even consistent, with a few trains terminating at Roma St.

[#Metro]

There are so many ancient practices on this rail network, not even sure why they are doing these things.
It should be the same operating pattern every day in the off-peak, at the same time. If it needs to be lower frequency, then just take 1 out of the pattern or what ever.

Did you know there are also express services on the Shorncliffe line skipping Wooloowin and Albion? Does this have something to do with Airtrain?

And the express service saves... 2 minutes!

http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/services-and-timetables/timetables/090223_shorncliffe.pdf

[somebody]

Did you know there are also express services on the Shorncliffe line skipping Wooloowin and Albion? Does this have something to do with Airtrain?

Yep, I knew that.

[mufreight]

Transport Minister Nolan has yet to arrange additional airport services despite her espousals on the subject, she has shown herself to have no control over Airtrain or Translink which makes any expectation of changes in any form to Airtrain services unless they add to the bottom line for Airtrain a vain hope.
I seem to recall that the Minister was either going to arrange additional airport rail services or if unable to do so provide a bus service to and from the airport during those times that Airtrain refuses to provide services, what happened, a press release, possibly a photo opportunity more hot air but additional services, the silence has been deafining.      

[Golliwog]

She shouldn't have control over Airtrain! Airtrain is a private company.

I agree the lack of news on this topic is dissapointing, but it could be that their contract excludes the operation of buses/trains even when airtrain isn't running.

[somebody]

There's no need for the buses.  Just operate the trains at a lower price to Airtrain.

[mufreight]

She shouldn't have control over Airtrain! Airtrain is a private company.

I agree the lack of news on this topic is dissapointing, but it could be that their contract excludes the operation of buses/trains even when airtrain isn't running.

And so are all the private bus companies operating under contract to the government (Translink) to provide public transport so using your concept Golliwog the Government (Translink) should have no control of these private operators either nor possibly extending your theory Queensland Rail which also operates under the control of Translink.

[mufreight]

There's no need for the buses.  Just operate the trains at a lower price to Airtrain.

If Airtrain is not prepared to operate the services needed to meet the needs of the traveling public there is a need for another provider to met that need and an obligation for the Government (Minister Do Nothing Nolan) to ensure that those services are provided be they train or bus, as the right of way for the operation of train services into the airport is privately owned the fill in services would logicaly be provided by bus be it a private operator or BT operating under Government franchise or contract as a service provider.
The alternative is that the Government could acquire or make a compulsory acqusition of the Airtrain and intergrate it into the rest of the QR passenger network with lower fares and more frequent service and extended hours of operation, there would then be no impediment to having airport services stop at Albion and Wooloowin other than the increasing constraints of track capacity.

The construction of the CRR and a fifth track from Mayne to between Eagle Junction and Toombul (possibly with a flyover to connect with the airport line) will eventualy be needed with the increases in commuter services to the Sunshine Coast and Kippa-ring and growth in freight traffic to the north.

      

[HappyTrainGuy]

The Airport line/Airtrain is a private bit of track and company that QR/Translink/Queensland Government can do nothing about in accordance with the contract service wise. Without knowing what is stated in the contact it might be pointless as its more likely there will be a clause preventing Translink/Queensland Rail from operating bus/private services requested by Translink/QR in return for them building the track and handing it over after it expires. Pretty much the same as Golliwog said earlier. Translink/QR/Government/Lobby Groups/Customers/Nuns/Dogs/Cats/People waiting in traffic jams/Bob from the burger shop can complain all they want about the lack of service but its fundamentally up to Airtrain Citylink to say "Okay, lets run more trains on our tracks" before anything can happen past Eagle Junction.

[Cam]

I vote YES if there is no time saved on the trip - which is the case as has been pointed out.

If the timetable was adjusted so that 2 minutes could be saved on this section then I would probably vote NO.

[somebody]

The Airport line/Airtrain is a private bit of track and company that QR/Translink/Queensland Government can do nothing about in accordance with the contract service wise. Without knowing what is stated in the contact it might be pointless as its more likely there will be a clause preventing Translink/Queensland Rail from operating bus/private services requested by Translink/QR in return for them building the track and handing it over after it expires. Pretty much the same as Golliwog said earlier. Translink/QR/Government/Lobby Groups/Customers/Nuns/Dogs/Cats/People waiting in traffic jams/Bob from the burger shop can complain all they want about the lack of service but its fundamentally up to Airtrain Citylink to say "Okay, lets run more trains on our tracks" before anything can happen past Eagle Junction.

Such a clause is likely unenforceable due to being a "restriction on trade" and therefore unconstitutional.

There's no need for the buses.  Just operate the trains at a lower price to Airtrain.

If Airtrain is not prepared to operate the services needed to meet the needs of the traveling public there is a need for another provider to met that need and an obligation for the Government (Minister Do Nothing Nolan) to ensure that those services are provided be they train or bus, as the right of way for the operation of train services into the airport is privately owned the fill in services would logicaly be provided by bus be it a private operator or BT operating under Government franchise or contract as a service provider.
The alternative is that the Government could acquire or make a compulsory acqusition of the Airtrain and intergrate it into the rest of the QR passenger network with lower fares and more frequent service and extended hours of operation, there would then be no impediment to having airport services stop at Albion and Wooloowin other than the increasing constraints of track capacity.

The construction of the CRR and a fifth track from Mayne to between Eagle Junction and Toombul (possibly with a flyover to connect with the airport line) will eventualy be needed with the increases in commuter services to the Sunshine Coast and Kippa-ring and growth in freight traffic to the north.

      

It is an option for a state takeover of Airtrain, and it may well be the best one.  Certainly Airtrain as a state project would have been far superior to the PPP.

However, while Airtrain is not prepared to pay the current asking price for additional services, it is not known that they would be unprepared to pay a lower asking price.  I would have thought this would be worth trying.

[#Metro]

It is a long held view of mine that buying out the Airtrain is a waste of money and a distraction from what the real issue is.
If Airtrain were bought out, it would cost at least $220 million, probably even more now, and that's just to buy the concrete and steel, we haven't even gotten around to running a single service yet.

The way out of this one is to make them an offer. Come under a TransLink contract and be offered a subsidy to operate services after 8pm.
That solves the problem now, and airtrain can keep their "commercial services" and the money made from that to themselves until their contract runs out and it reverts to state ownership anyway.

The issue is frequency, pricing and scope of hours. All these problems can be solved without having to buy anything.

[somebody]

Subsidy?  I say wash your mouth out.  I do not believe that $460/service is a fair price off peak by any reasonable measure.

[#Metro]

Subsidy?  I say wash your mouth out.  I do not believe that $460/service is a fair price off peak by any reasonable measure.

I guess Airtrain doesn't really have a choice does it? Who else is going to run the trains for them? CityRail? 

[somebody]

Subsidy?  I say wash your mouth out.  I do not believe that $460/service is a fair price off peak by any reasonable measure.

I guess Airtrain doesn't really have a choice does it? Who else is going to run the trains for them? CityRail? 

Yes, well reducing the price doesn't make it a subsidy.

[#Metro]

I agree with everything you said somebody. Airtrain is held to ransom though when you think about it.
QR has effective monopoly control of the rail system and it just isn't practical to have any other operator service the Airtrain line.
So QR can charge whatever it wants really.

Re subsidy- if it is below the cost to provide the service then it is an effective subsidy. If the trains were provided for free, there are still costs attached, just because a transaction does not occur or the amount charged is below cost price, doesn't mean that it isn't a subsidy. However, this is a minor and trivial point and in all likelihood maybe Airtrain is being charged more than it should. But that's business as they say...